This system is ripe to be overthrown.

[LETSFIGHTBACK]

I was discussing this question, WHERE THE HELL IS THE LEFT. I'll tell you where they are, locked up in little rooms, debating theory. meanwhile, nobody knows they exist. and here we have a system that is ripe like a rotten grape ready to fall off the vine.I was talking to a member of the workers international league. I said,the people don't even know that there is an alternative. where are the weekly forums, where are the demonstations, what is being done to let people know that their is an alternative, and it isn't the democratic party.you know what they said, "the time isn't ripe enough yet". ISN'T RIPE ENOUGH!! almost 3 million lost their homes, over 342,000 renters evicted, homelessness increasing, massive unemployment.you know who is doing ALL THE WORK, grassroots groups. where are the REVOLUTIONARIES? SITTING IN LITTLE RENTED ROOMS DEBATING THEORY. DEBATING TROTSKY & STALIN, ONE GROUP ACCUSES THE OTHER OF NOT BEING REVOLUTIONARY, OR BEING AGENTS OF THE STATE. INTRA PARTY FIGHTING, PARTIES THROWING MUD AT EACH OTHER. and the funny thing about it is, no one knows that any of them exists.

[Sam_b]

:rolleyes:

It might shock you to know that plenty of socialists are doing important work. What a ridiculous generalisation you are using. Although we need to also bear in mind "without revolutionary theory there can be no revolutionary movement": both go hand in hand. Somehow you disdain for the motives that make ou movement go places.

Look at the students occupying universities in the UK, or the recent demonstrations in Greece. The strikes that are going to sweep Britain in the next few months, and hopefully the US: who do you think is leading ths struggle? Militant class conscious workers.

[punisa]

Don't be so against theory comrade LETSFIGHTBACK.. you noticed that many people are discussing theory locked inside their homes. Well, guess what - a couple of years ago you couldn't find these individuals anywhere.
And these days, seems that anyone who comes by my place and sees some book I left on the couch goes: "Oh, you're reading Marx too?"

Trust me, there are many many young people going very deep into theory of socialism, but not to pass their time, but to come to certain conclusions on what should be done.
Why? History. We are aware of many failed revolutions and have no intention in wasting any of our time on making another of such quality.

You want to see it happen, I want to see it succeed.
But our goals are mutual - we SHALL be there when the capitalism hits the ground, you don't need to have any doubts about that.

[GatesofLenin]

Got to be patient Letsfightback. Being a Canadian, I see all around me the mass general public is currently in a state of shock and just want to forget that the whole system is in a spiral downfall. They know the truth but like eating habits, they force the "bad thoughts" away and go happy all day long. Guess what though, that same tactic will lead to a mass, sudden realization that just forgetting things is not a way to deal with problems. Nietzsche summarized it perfectly that pushing aside thoughts instead of dealing with them leads to a mental breakdown. Time will come, just be ready. This western-style economic system is dying, the top 1% have milked it to death. Keep educating yourself, don't be afraid to speak out. How long can the lower class be raped of their hard-earned money before they say ENOUGH! How many lower class people need to starve before they say ENOUGH! Time for the rich to stop living high of the hog, as they say, and join humanity and stop killing, torturing just for pure profits. Time will come friends. :cool:

[LETSFIGHTBACK]

:rolleyes:

It might shock you to know that plenty of socialists are doing important work. What a ridiculous generalisation you are using. Although we need to also bear in mind "without revolutionary theory there can be no revolutionary movement": both go hand in hand. Somehow you disdain for the motives that make ou movement go places.

Look at the students occupying universities in the UK, or the recent demonstrations in Greece. The strikes that are going to sweep Britain in the next few months, and hopefully the US: who do you think is leading ths struggle? Militant class conscious workers.


That is the point, in the UK, Greece etc. not here in the U.S. let me give you an example of how dead it is here in philly. last year there was a pep rally for the phila eagles. it started at 5am with a chicken wing eating contest.some people kept their kids home from school so they could attend. 15,000 people showed up. 10,000 outside could not get in. a riot almost broke out. that same week a demo was called to protest the high home heating prices. 50 showed up. and I do not disdain theory. but theory and action go hand in hand. there needs to be a praxis.I've reached out MANY, MANY times asking for speakers for forums that I put together. no return phone call. the attitude is, if were not running it, not interested.they all want to be the vanguard. how sad.

[GatesofLenin]

That is the point, in the UK, Greece etc. not here in the U.S. let me give you an example of how dead it is here in philly. last year there was a pep rally for the phila eagles. it started at 5am with a chicken wing eating contest.some people kept their kids home from school so they could attend. 15,000 people showed up. 10,000 outside could not get in. a riot almost broke out. that same week a demo was called to protest the high home heating prices. 50 showed up. and I do not disdain theory. but theory and action go hand in hand. there needs to be a praxis.I've reached out MANY, MANY times asking for speakers for forums that I put together. no return phone call. the attitude is, if were not running it, not interested.they all want to be the vanguard. how sad.
Sounds like a society living high on the fat, doesn't it. Sports ahead of life, it's a sad truth that more people care about sports than issues that affect them everyday like socio-economic policies, etc... I can see in the near future when the "comfy life" reaches starvation levels, people will leave sports and start to actually take life decisions seriously. Imagine a world where govts MUST answer to the majority, the citizens and not to the scumbag lobbyists. Time is soon approaching my friend comrades!

[Comrade Ian]

What's that? Oh sorry I couldn't hear your grumbling about the Left doing nothing over the sound of my branch of the ISO helping to lead one of the first real student strikes in decades in the US, completely shutting down UCSC's campus and giving every campus worker, hundreds/thousands of them, a day off with full pay. What have you been doing lately?

[Dermezel]

This is the weakest moment for the left we have ever seen due to the fall of the Soviet Union. Class consciousness is at an all time low, and the left is ostracized, what elements remain are dominated by anarchists and reformists.

[Invincible Summer]

What's that? Oh sorry I couldn't hear your grumbling about the Left doing nothing over the sound of my branch of the ISO helping to lead one of the first real student strikes in decades in the US, completely shutting down UCSC's campus and giving every campus worker, hundreds/thousands of them, a day off with full pay. What have you been doing lately?

I know the OP most likely touched a bunch of nerves, but no need for braggadocio. It leads down the slippery slope of "prolier than thou" and "NO I IZ TEH TR00 COMMIE"

[Jimmie Higgins]

LETSFIGHTBACK,

*Clinton-voice* I feel your pain... or frustration as the case may be. We are small and just now reconnecting with a working class that in general has not been able or confident enough to fight back.

What are the trade-unions doing? Where are the wild-cat strikes? Strikes in the US are at the lowest level since WWII. This is a bigger problem that can not be attributed to Leftists who supposedly do not want to fight back or talk about theory too much.

Besides, as Comrade Ian said, this is not the case anyhow. In Oakland there have been radicals of all stripes involved in protests and even riots against police brutality, ISO comrades and other radicals have been leading a modern school occupation wave! My comrades in LA are taking on the LA Unified school district as well as business-union beurocrats. The IWW has been organizing starbucks workers, ANSWER is still organizing anti-war protests when all the liberal organizations say, "What war, a Democrat is in office".

We can't just wish for radicalization to happen on a mass scale, we have to do our best to build working class struggles as they happen and try and argue for class politics and radical tactics. Right now people fighting back against cut-backs in California are learning first-hand that they can't rely on liberal politicians or legal maneuvers or the kindness of their bosses heart; they are learning concretely that our governmnet values the banks and imperialist war more than the so-called American Dream of owning a home; in California they are learning that our rulers value cops and prisons more than education or our health. While it may seem like things are moving too slow now, this is actually an important time for radicals to be involved with small movements against foreclosures and austerity because these are the things that will potentially teach many many workers how and why they need to fight-back.

[Psy]

You have to remember the US ruling class has a propaganda machine that makes Joseph Goebbels look like a total amateur, the US ruling class has a army of psychologists to fine tune consumerists propaganda with the goal to create unthinking proletariat that will sell their labor for whatever commodities capitalists can make them crave.

Americans are living in the center of the global capitalism and suffer the full blunt of capitalist propaganda, there is still class consciousness in the American proletariat but they are combating the best propaganda the capitalists have to offer in America.

[Little Bobby Hutton]

conditions arent ripe you prat

[LETSFIGHTBACK]

What's that? Oh sorry I couldn't hear your grumbling about the Left doing nothing over the sound of my branch of the ISO helping to lead one of the first real student strikes in decades in the US, completely shutting down UCSC's campus and giving every campus worker, hundreds/thousands of them, a day off with full pay. What have you been doing lately?



What have I been doing lately? well I guess you didn't read my post well enough, or didn't maintain what you read.I said that I, by myself, put on forums. when I called communist groups to send a speaker, no return call. And that is a problem with the left,"if we can't control it, we won't participate. EVERYONE is trying to be the vanguard.And second, the west coast has always been alot more radical.If you haven't been to philly, then you really don't know what you are talking about. it is a radical ghost town.

[Jimmie Higgins]

It's frustrating to live day-in and day-out in the shit we do and see things getting worse while at the same time knowing how much better things can potentially be - this is the situation that leads most people to just become cynical. But to paraphrase Marx, people do not choose the conditions and times they live in. I think it is a little hostile to blame the state of things on all other radicals in general. Doing this will be interpreted as hostile and just alienate potential allies.

As I said before, there is a larger crisis for workers - 30 years of the bosses on the offensive and this has led to conservatism in the trade union rank and file and infighting on the radical left. If we want to reverse this we have to look at where things are right now for us politically and work towards the things we think will put workers on the offensive side of the class war.

As someone who has been involved in grassroots movements for about a decade now, your generalizations and frustration with the left are largely exaggerated stereotypes and offensive to me and all the hard-work I have seen people in my organization and other groups put in over the years. Most radicals I know in the bay area do not post on this website, so please do not say that radicals are just sitting around - it simply is not true.

[chegitz guevara]

Maybe it's the Philly left. Down here in South Florida, all the groups turn out for each others' shit and we do cross party organizing. We have to. It's the only way we can get things done.

When I lived in Chicago, we did some joint organizing with ISO, Workers World and a couple other groups. Okay, that was twenty years ago ... wow, that was twenty years ago ... I'm old. :(

[LETSFIGHTBACK]

It's frustrating to live day-in and day-out in the shit we do and see things getting worse while at the same time knowing how much better things can potentially be - this is the situation that leads most people to just become cynical. But to paraphrase Marx, people do not choose the conditions and times they live in. I think it is a little hostile to blame the state of things on all other radicals in general. Doing this will be interpreted as hostile and just alienate potential allies.

As I said before, there is a larger crisis for workers - 30 years of the bosses on the offensive and this has led to conservatism in the trade union rank and file and infighting on the radical left. If we want to reverse this we have to look at where things are right now for us politically and work towards the things we think will put workers on the offensive side of the class war.

As someone who has been involved in grassroots movements for about a decade now, your generalizations and frustration with the left are largely exaggerated stereotypes and offensive to me and all the hard-work I have seen people in my organization and other groups put in over the years. Most radicals I know in the bay area do not post on this website, so please do not say that radicals are just sitting around - it simply is not true.


What is offensive to me is saying that my experiences are wrong. I live here, you don't. I've been involved since the late 80's, at the start of the war, been to two SEPARATE demo's, will not give the names, but one group REFUSED to march with the other group. so there were two separate demo's split into two different weeks. I went to a forum of one group, they recognized me from being a member of another group. they contacted the group that I was a member of and said "if they see me at their forums again, they will deal with me justly". so, take it however way you want to take it. the truth will never stop being the truth.And if by speaking the truth people will interpret it as hostle,that people can't accept it will cause me to be alienated, then there's your proof. I will not go along to get along.the way to have a stronger movement is to work on the problems within it.not to remove the people that are pointing them out. that turns people into automatons.
P.S the way Marx argued and debated in the international workingmen's association, you have interpreted that as hostle?

[Jimmie Higgins]

What is offensive to me is saying that my experiences are wrong. ... Cool down friend, I was trying to empathize. Most of us know what the left could be and needs to be in order to be able to have an impact and real permanent connections to the working class... it isn't there and we, as workers in general have been loosing since the 70s and it's really frustrating.


P.S the way Marx argued and debated in the international workingmen's association, you have interpreted that as hostle?Ok Marx:lol:. Well if old Karl walked into a meeting where nobody knew him and immediately got up and said: "you all are the problem - SITTING IN LITTLE RENTED ROOMS DEBATING THEORY." then I don't think he would have got very far in organizing with them.

I'm sorry that you seem to have run into some sectarian atitudes where you are - this has not always been my experience although I have run into it as well. If you want to vent because of a bad experience, then fine, but let us know that you are talking about something specific and not generalizing.

[Ironwill]

I don't agree with your whole statement but I am kind of sad all these neo-con facists are pretty much running the show right now.

[Morgenstern]

I don't agree with your whole statement but I am kind of sad all these neo-con facists are pretty much running the show right now.

The neo-cons are only running the show since the media is playing along.

The system is ripe to conquer in any economic downturn, whether the 30s, the 70s, or now. But what we lack is:
1. The publicity, no major media outlet even lets the public know that strikes are going on
2. The unity, we are embarrassingly divided into very secretarian groups. It's time we finally threw titles aside and have a bit of unity.
3. The public knowing us, many of the people believe Communism=Soviet Union. We need to first right this wrong before we can spread our message.

We can't expect to just walk around saying, "Kay we are in charge now. Bai Mister President." We need mass strikes around the country, strikes in the hundreds of thousands chanting for an end to the broken system. We must be prepared to paralyze the system before we can destroy the system. If we have any sort of take over just with a tiny minority is that a true people's movement? Communism is the overthrow of our rulers through the will of the people. Having a few guys who debate theory overthrow the government sort of isn't the will of the people and without their support they will resist.