National Bolshevism?

[Nolan]

Where and how did this bastard ideology originate? How did someone successfully sell an ideology that admires Hitler as revolutionary and uses communist imagery? I mean, don't they know that Hitler and Stalin were mortal enemies?

[Die Neue Zeit]

As bad as they are, National Bolsheviks, especially of the Russian variety, don't like Hitler very much. They see Stalin as a "national Bolshevik."

Also, there have been interesting developments within Russian National Bolshevism (read: entries and splits).

[khad]

Long story short, the NBP with their founder Limonov is now partnered up with the liberals. Their rhetoric against the Russian government, once the equivalent of revleft's Stalin-kiddie spam (ie Stalin, Beria, Gulag!), is now all about human rights. The splinter faction (which broke over Limonov's Islamophilia and entryism), the NBF, is openly xenophobic and is far more like a fascist organization.

[Audeamus]

I imagine most National Bolsheviks would be more sympathetic to the brand of nationalism espoused by the Strasser brothers, and are more hostile to Hitler.

[ZombieGrits]

I think the communist imagery just identifies them as nostalgic for Russia's superpower status during the cold war. Apart from the imagery they seem to be just your average everyday nationalists

[Die Neue Zeit]

Long story short, the NBP with their founder Limonov is now partnered up with the liberals. Their rhetoric against the Russian government, once the equivalent of revleft's Stalin-kiddie spam (ie Stalin, Beria, Gulag!), is now all about human rights. The splinter faction (which broke over Limonov's Islamophilia and entryism), the NBF, is openly xenophobic and is far more like a fascist organization.

It's the Limonov tendency that I'm referring to as "interesting."

There has been an influx of anarcho-communists and socialists into that group, so will the organization dump economic fascism a la Strasser? If that becomes the case, then more "interesting" things can be expected from that group.

[Red Commissar]

They're ultra-nationalists with an overly nostalgic view of the Soviet Union. They place pan-Slavic concerns over class struggle I'd imagine.

I mean seriously

http://www.instablogsimages.com/images/2008/05/24/natzbols_VEACD_17186.jpg

But they've been having splits like Jacob and Khad mentioned.

[Die Neue Zeit]

The Limonov tendency has, interestingly enough, fought for basic human rights for Chechens.

[Nolan]

Are they fascists? Or are only some tendencies fascist?

[Rjevan]

There were already some threads about this topic, maybe you'd like to have a look at them.

http://www.revleft.com/vb/national-bolshevism-t106220/index.html?t
http://www.revleft.com/vb/national-bolshevismi-t113073/index.html?t
http://www.revleft.com/vb/stalinism-form-national-t130163/index.html?t

I'm going to shamelessly copy my repy to one of them now. ;)


National Bolshevism was developed in the 1920s in both Germany and Russia at the same time. In Germany main National Bolsheviks were Ernst Niekisch and Karlo Otto Paetel, strong nationalists and Prussia admireres who thought that not only the working class but the whole population of a country are the revolutionary forces who should overthrow the current system and build a social, Marxist-like society but also based on nationalism and militarism [as well as on bourgeois views]. They further wanted an alliance with the USSR and the isolation of Germany from the west. Niekisch dreamed of a socialist Prussian empire but he critizised Hitler heavily and called him "the German doom" in one of his books.

He was imprisoned and tortured by the Nazis but later saved by the Red Army.
Paetel also vehemently critizised the NSDAP and had to go into exile where he published his theories together with various nationalist and socialist groups.

In Russia Nikolai Ustralinov, a militant nationalist who fought for the Whites in the civil war, got strongly impressed by the achievements of the Bolsheviks later and drew the conclusion thatBolshevism together with nationalism would be the best system. He was executed for counter-revolutionary activity in 1937.

Today the most important National Bolshevik movement are the Russian "Nazbol", led by Edward Limonov, an author and ex-emigrant who returned to the USSR during Gorbachev's perestroika and glasnost.

These fellows are a strange mixture of anti-Hitler fascists and disappointed socialists, the Nazbol are a youth movement and aim at disappointed youths. They are pretty confused, in the one moment they praise the achievements of fascism and in the next they walk along communist youth groups and demonstrate against "fascist Putin" and for "true democracy". They want to combine nationalism with communism and "the positive things from the right with the positive things from the left". The sad thing is that they obviously attract some genuine leftists, who see the Nazbols as the only real vanguard, since the Nazbols are very active, there's nearly no political demonstartion in Russia without surprisingly many militant Nazbols who are known for spectacular actions like occupying a city hall during one of Putin's visits, showing banners with "The Czar won't come through!".

There are also two kinds of Nazbols, the hardcore right-wing National Bolshevik Front (NBF, smaller than the NBP), built after Alexander Dugin, who founded the NBP together with Limonov left the NBP and claimed that Linonov "sold us out to the Zionists" and Limonov's National Bolshevik Party (NBP, officially banned, but still more active than ever), wannabe "leftists", who work together with Kasparov's opposition party and communist groups. But still, they are no communists, even though the Russian media presents them like that sometimes.

All in all a crypto-fascist movement mainly based on very confused youths. Limonov actually wrote some kind of "Nazbol Manifesto" but his views change constantly. He generally thinks that the "misfits" as he calls them, the social outsiders and mentally ill are the vanguard and creative force behind human history. There are many more factors, for some time he wanted to "create a new god", Smert (means "death" in Russian) who you can see on some of their propaganda pics, now he is pro-Islam but as I said, he changes views quite quickly.

[Red Commissar]

From what I've seen so far, they bear similarities to the LaRouche group in America.

[Die Neue Zeit]

The LaRouche nutcases are fascists through and through, with no left-wing or "left-wing" elements.

[Red Commissar]

The LaRouche nutcases are fascists through and through, with no left-wing or "left-wi Turkey? ng" elements.

I know, I'm just referring to how erratic and politically contradictory these groups are. LaRouche himself keeps denying charges that he is "fascist", and his supporters have applied the term to their opponents (they've appeared in Tea Bag Rallies with Obama drawn as Hitler) even though it's obvious he and his organization are fascists. Both of these movements seem to draw support from this breed of confused and self-styled "radical" youth.

[Comrade_Stalin]

Can any one tell me what the National Bolshevism view of Stalin?

[Dimentio]

Where and how did this bastard ideology originate? How did someone successfully sell an ideology that admires Hitler as revolutionary and uses communist imagery? I mean, don't they know that Hitler and Stalin were mortal enemies?

It originated within the Conservative Revolution in Germany, which basically was a group of German and exile-Russian emigres who wanted to create an authoritarian militarist state which would be friendly to Russia (apart from its then leadership). They advocated "Prussian egalitarianism" basically (which means basically a sort of Spartan collectivist state where the individuals are cogs in the machinery of the state).

Modern National Bolshevism is basically the creation of Alexander Dugin and Eduard Limonov, and was a rather large opposition group in Russia a few years ago. They basically wanted a greater Russian Empire with a market socialist approach. Nowadays, they've teamed up with liberals and dissidents in the "Other Russia Movement" (Dugin has started the pro-Putin eurasianist movement at the same time, advocating a Russia-China-Iran alliance against the West basically).

[Dimentio]

It's the Limonov tendency that I'm referring to as "interesting."

There has been an influx of anarcho-communists and socialists into that group, so will the organization dump economic fascism a la Strasser? If that becomes the case, then more "interesting" things can be expected from that group.

Limonov is a quite interesting individual overally. He was once an acquaintance of Andy Warhol as far as I know. I've read one of his books, and following from that, he is quite talented but also quite decadent. I think he could bring the NazBol movement everywhere. It is sad that so many vibrant anti-fascists are sucked up into such a bizarre party.

[AK]

The funniest thing about National Bolsheviks is that many of them are Russian.
Hitler + Russians = You know...

[Dimentio]

The funniest thing about National Bolsheviks is that many of them are Russian.
Hitler + Russians = You know...

Nazbols are Anti-hitler (and often pro-Strasser), but there are about 60 000 white supremacist skinheads in Russia today.

[Stranger Than Paradise]

They're ultra-nationalists with an overly nostalgic view of the Soviet Union. They place pan-Slavic concerns over class struggle I'd imagine.

I mean seriously

http://www.instablogsimages.com/images/2008/05/24/natzbols_VEACD_17186.jpg

But they've been having splits like Jacob and Khad mentioned.

What is wrong with this picture. I can't find one thing that would mean they aren't supporting working class politics.

[red cat]

What is wrong with this picture. I can't find one thing that would mean they aren't supporting working class politics.

How about the colour combination of their wrist bands ?

[Stranger Than Paradise]

they've got a hammer sickle on them. Yes I know the connotations of such a band, but to me it looks like they're trying to reclaim it for the working class movement. I'm not saying they are true revolutionaries just that this isn't proof they're not.

[Comrade_Stalin]

So no one know, what National Bolshevism view is of Stalin?

[Red Commissar]

So no one know, what National Bolshevism view is of Stalin?

He pops up from time to time on their propaganda. They view more in a nationalistic light though. They probably have their own interpretation of "socialism in one country" as pertinent to their views.

[#FF0000]

they've got a hammer sickle on them. Yes I know the connotations of such a band, but to me it looks like they're trying to reclaim it for the working class movement. I'm not saying they are true revolutionaries just that this isn't proof they're not.

Uh, the nazi armband was never something the working class had for them to reclaim.

[Ramon Mercador]

Uh, the nazi armband was never something the working class had for them to reclaim.
Yes it was red armbands are long accepted symbol of communism.

But death to these Naz Bols scum.

Long live Stalin

[AK]

I spy, with my little eye, a cult of personality...


Long live Stalin
Two things wrongs with this:


The fucker's long dead
And no, just no.

So yeah, I'll pass.

[Nolan]

I spy, with my little eye, a cult of personality...


Two things wrongs with this:


The fucker's long dead
And no, just no.

So yeah, I'll pass.

To be fair I'll just take the chance to say this:

Fuck Trotsky

Now Let's be friends and talk about nazbols. :D

[Rjevan]

they've got a hammer sickle on them. Yes I know the connotations of such a band, but to me it looks like they're trying to reclaim it for the working class movement.
The initail idea behind their flag and band was, besides of provoking and shocking, to illustarte their ideology: the idea of combining National Socialism with Bolshevism. Thus they chose the nazi flag with its German nationalist colour (red-white-black is the flag of the German Empire. And the white circle in the nazi flag stands for nationalism and "the Aryan race") and simply replaced the swastika with hammer and sickle. This is intended and no "unforunate mistake" or effort to reclaim bands for the working class.

Limonov cares very little about the working class, he sees them as "boring and dull", dumb and unable to carry out a revolution. As I said before, he the thinks "the outsiders of the society, the misfits" are the true revolutionary force and the vanguard: frustrated and rebellious youth, misunderstood but brilliant artists (obviously a reference to himself...), psychopaths and neurotics, simply all elements which are rejected by the current society and therefore reject society itself. He then goes into outlining that all great progress in human history has been made by such "misfits" (Napoleon, Hitler, Stalin) but that after their deaths "boring normal people" preceeded them and destroyed their brilliant work and achievements because they cannot see nor understand its brilliance in their narrow-mindedness (I think he borrowed the main part of this theory from Raskolnikov in "Crime and Punisment"...).

Today the red flag is banned and so the Nazbols use a black one, looking exactly like the old one, just black background, white circle, black hammer and sickle. This is often interpreted as a reference to Otto Strasser's "Black Front".


So no one know, what National Bolshevism view is of Stalin?
The view him as "defender of the fatherland" and as Gramsci said, some left Nazbols uphold a totally misunderstood and distorted version of socialism in one country, missing and deliberatley twisting the very basics of this theory. They claim that Stalin (as well as Lenin) is not a communist but a Nazbol and some even go so far to praise him for "eliminating the Bolsheviks and saving Russia from communism", a claim which can be also found within pro-Stalin neo-nazis in Russia.

[Nolan]

Rjevan, is this the flag that was banned?

http://www.nationstates.net/images/flags/uploads/nazbol_europa__956868.png

[Rjevan]

Exactly, now it is this one:

http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/images/r/ru%7Dnbp.gif

[Die Neue Zeit]

Limonov cares very little about the working class, he sees them as "boring and dull", dumb and unable to carry out a revolution. As I said before, he the thinks "the outsiders of the society, the misfits" are the true revolutionary force and the vanguard: frustrated and rebellious youth, misunderstood but brilliant artists (obviously a reference to himself...), psychopaths and neurotics, simply all elements which are rejected by the current society and therefore reject society itself. He then goes into outlining that all great progress in human history has been made by such "misfits" (Napoleon, Hitler, Stalin) but that after their deaths "boring normal people" preceeded them and destroyed their brilliant work and achievements because they cannot see nor understand its brilliance in their narrow-mindedness (I think he borrowed the main part of this theory from Raskolnikov in "Crime and Punisment"...).

In other words, on class issues he's very much a Bakuninite. Surprise, surprise! :rolleyes:

BTW, what's the class background of the "interesting" influx of anarcho-communists and socialists?

[AK]

I spy, with my little eye, moar sectarianism...

To be fair I'll just take the chance to say this:

Fuck Trotsky
I was once a Trotskyist, not any longer really. Your arguement is irrelevant.

Now Let's be friends and talk about nazbols. :D
If by "talk about" you mean "scream abuse at" then count me in :)

[Comrade_Stalin]

I spy, with my little eye, moar sectarianism...

I was once a Trotskyist, not any longer really. Your arguement is irrelevant.

If by "talk about" you mean "scream abuse at" then count me in :)

Yes, you must tell us what a Council Vanguardist is.

[Comrade_Stalin]

The view him as "defender of the fatherland" and as Gramsci said, some left Nazbols uphold a totally misunderstood and distorted version of socialism in one country, missing and deliberatley twisting the very basics of this theory. They claim that Stalin (as well as Lenin) is not a communist but a Nazbol and some even go so far to praise him for "eliminating the Bolsheviks and saving Russia from communism", a claim which can be also found within pro-Stalin neo-nazis in Russia.

So they are a group of republicans that hate Ronald Reagan and love Al Gore? Is this right? This intel has to be wrong, it does not make any senes to me.

[AK]

Yes, you must tell us what a Council Vanguardist is.
It's my mashing together of Council Communism whilst also advocating a Vanguard party - something orthodox Council Communism is against. In my opinion, it shouldn't achieve power itself. The only purpose the Vanguard serves is to help the working class organise itself and it should help to build class consciousness and educate workers about the capitalist system and socialist views on it. It would be great if all the workers found out about capitalism and Marxism simply through individual research and investigation but that's not likely to happen is it? That's why I advocate a Vanguard as well, because every future revolution needs a voice today. Although the Vanguard is not a necessity if the workers can do all this without it.

[Stranger Than Paradise]

The initail idea behind their flag and band was, besides of provoking and shocking, to illustarte their ideology: the idea of combining National Socialism with Bolshevism. Thus they chose the nazi flag with its German nationalist colour (red-white-black is the flag of the German Empire. And the white circle in the nazi flag stands for nationalism and "the Aryan race") and simply replaced the swastika with hammer and sickle. This is intended and no "unforunate mistake" or effort to reclaim bands for the working class.

Limonov cares very little about the working class, he sees them as "boring and dull", dumb and unable to carry out a revolution. As I said before, he the thinks "the outsiders of the society, the misfits" are the true revolutionary force and the vanguard: frustrated and rebellious youth, misunderstood but brilliant artists (obviously a reference to himself...), psychopaths and neurotics, simply all elements which are rejected by the current society and therefore reject society itself. He then goes into outlining that all great progress in human history has been made by such "misfits" (Napoleon, Hitler, Stalin) but that after their deaths "boring normal people" preceeded them and destroyed their brilliant work and achievements because they cannot see nor understand its brilliance in their narrow-mindedness (I think he borrowed the main part of this theory from Raskolnikov in "Crime and Punisment"...).

Today the red flag is banned and so the Nazbols use a black one, looking exactly like the old one, just black background, white circle, black hammer and sickle. This is often interpreted as a reference to Otto Strasser's "Black Front".


The view him as "defender of the fatherland" and as Gramsci said, some left Nazbols uphold a totally misunderstood and distorted version of socialism in one country, missing and deliberatley twisting the very basics of this theory. They claim that Stalin (as well as Lenin) is not a communist but a Nazbol and some even go so far to praise him for "eliminating the Bolsheviks and saving Russia from communism", a claim which can be also found within pro-Stalin neo-nazis in Russia.

Thank you for the explanation. I wasn't defending National Bolshevism. I thought the poster who posted the picture was trying to point out the fact the guys had shaved heads made them not communists, and all I meant was the picture doesn't prove anything about their ideology.

[JohnnyC]

It's my mashing together of Council Communism whilst also advocating a Vanguard party - something orthodox Council Communism is against. In my opinion, it shouldn't achieve power itself. The only purpose the Vanguard serves is to help the working class organise itself and it should help to build class consciousness and educate workers about the capitalist system and socialist views on it. It would be great if all the workers found out about capitalism and Marxism simply through individual research and investigation but that's not likely to happen is it? That's why I advocate a Vanguard as well, because every future revolution needs a voice today. Although the Vanguard is not a necessity if the workers can do all this without it.
If by "Vanguard party" you mean organization of class conscious workers advocating establishment of socialism among the working class, than there is no difference between your position and the original Council Communist one.

You should check out these links:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Workers%27_Party_of_Germany
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Workers_International

[Rjevan]

BTW, what's the class background of the "interesting" influx of anarcho-communists and socialists?
The NBP is the political party/movement with the third largest youth movement in Russia and the majority seems to be of working class background. As far as I can tell mainly frustrated working class youth, disgusted by the corrupt capitalist society they live in. The impressing activity of the Nazbols - they are officially banned as a party but this makes almost no difference at all, they are very active and militant and although they are often few in numbers they know how to draw attention and how to do impressive political actions - led some genuine socialists and anarcho-communists to join their ranks because they are frustrated about the communist parties in Russia being "stuck in the past" and "debating clubs" so that they see the Nazbols as the only revolutionary force and real vanguard in Russia. At least this is the impression I got, maybe it is the impression they want people outside of Russia to get, maybe it is the truth.

As for Limonov's stance on the working class, here is an excerpt from his book "Drugaya Rossiya" which is intended to be the "Nazbol Manifesto":

9. One can lead propaganda among the workers for another hundred years, like the RCWP does, the workers will not make the revolution. A flying column of losers, temporary and permanent, hard workers, infected by all the illnesses, physical as well as social ones, they look like a degrading class of unqualified hired workers. And if they dare to demand something then it is the payment of an arrear of salary or salary payment increase. Poor, nonviolent, they are tearful and quite in their mass. Revolution needs wild people.

10. On the most important question for every party: what is our revolutionary class, where to draw the personnel from? – NBP can answer with certainty: this is not the working class. The passivity of workers in Russia is depressing, it was such even in the years of mass uprising in 1992-1993. To realize what circumstances would it take, how they should occur, I personally cannot. The Russian worker will endure everything, the popular masochism is inexhaustible, they will work for bread, water and firewood. To propagandize such people does not make sense. We need the active part of the working youth and it will come to us but not as workers but as youth. Among the workers we need misfits. Come to us, brothers!


He then goes on describing that "Communism and Capitalism are Siamese twins" and how the October Revolution was led by "misfits", like all great events were:

The first proletarian revolution was organized and performed not by the proletarians but by misfits, hysterical people, tramps, demagogues, orators, half-educated people, bums and all kind of rolling stones. Later the sailors and the peasants and the workers dared to arrive at what already happened, yes. However, they were not the first in the revolution business, they are not its fathers, - they joined later.
...
And the brothers-in-arms of the Leaders of the Great Parties of Europe! Around them joined poets, provincial journalists, writers (at random: Goebbels, Trotsky, Marinetti, Lunacharsky), strange women (the first to come: Inessa Armand, Anjelica Balabanoff, Kollontai, Leni Riefenstahl, Larisa Reisner), strange military (Ludendorff, Ernst Röhm, the Count Ciano, Tukhachevsky, Fruntze), psychopaths, countless extravagant types of half-thugs half-revolutionaries (at random: Kotovsky, Dzerjinsky, Camo, Horst Wessel).


So they are a group of republicans that hate Ronald Reagan and love Al Gore? Is this right? This intel has to be wrong, it does not make any senes to me.
Haha, nice comparison, but yes - that's the point, their entire ideology does not make any sense! Just think about it, combining national socialism/fascism with communism! Their ideology is full of contradictions, the one moment they praise the "achievements" of fascism and praise Hitler and Mussolini, the next they hail socialism and Lenin and condemn capitalism and the next they declare they are "neither left nor right", reject capitalism, communism and fascism and stand for a "third way". The Nazbols, especially the Russian, are very heterogenous, it is really hard to clearly define their opinion on certain topics because you will encounter various other groups and tendencies who hold opinions exactly opposed to each other within the same party. And for Stalin, again, you mustn't think they admired him as a communist/socialist/Marxist-Leninist, they admire Stalin in their perverted view of him. And as I said, there are Russian neo-nazis who admire Stalin, too. It's like somebody claimed that Hitler was a communist. Doesn't make sense either. ;)

[The Red Next Door]

To be fair I'll just take the chance to say this:

Fuck Trotsky

Now Let's be friends and talk about nazbols. :D

After saying that? really?

[Raightning]

I regrettably can't find where I read it now, but there was an interesting comparison between Futurism and Limonov.

Essentially, Limonov is a radical artist, nothing more, nothing less. He has turned his cynicism into a world view, and his works are based off the exploitation of that cynicism. It's all about the glorification of 'action': in practice, the glorification of tyranny and of pointless contradiction.

Of course, the National Bolshevik movement on the ground, that's a different matter. Unsurprisingly, I don't really know enough about it to say what it really is, but it is in appearance at least a manifestation of the typical muddled nature of uncoordinated movements that draw in elements of the working class by giving them a sense and feeling of superiority over their class comrades. At face value, they are of the working class, but they are not for it. It seems that this is its entire reason to be; it's barely a political movement in the traditional sense.

National Bolshevism is not a left movement, but it does narrow the space of the left to progress by taking away what could be its most active and ferocious members. Of course, you could say the same of the right; but with capitalist hegemony around, they scarcely need helpers on the ground. ;)

[Comrade_Stalin]

It's my mashing together of Council Communism whilst also advocating a Vanguard party - something orthodox Council Communism is against. In my opinion, it shouldn't achieve power itself. The only purpose the Vanguard serves is to help the working class organise itself and it should help to build class consciousness and educate workers about the capitalist system and socialist views on it. It would be great if all the workers found out about capitalism and Marxism simply through individual research and investigation but that's not likely to happen is it? That's why I advocate a Vanguard as well, because every future revolution needs a voice today. Although the Vanguard is not a necessity if the workers can do all this without it.

So in other words you are for a "teaching" party with no administrative power.

[Comrade_Stalin]

Haha, nice comparison, but yes - that's the point, their entire ideology does not make any sense! Just think about it, combining national socialism/fascism with communism! Their ideology is full of contradictions, the one moment they praise the "achievements" of fascism and praise Hitler and Mussolini, the next they hail socialism and Lenin and condemn capitalism and the next they declare they are "neither left nor right", reject capitalism, communism and fascism and stand for a "third way". The Nazbols, especially the Russian, are very heterogenous, it is really hard to clearly define their opinion on certain topics because you will encounter various other groups and tendencies who hold opinions exactly opposed to each other within the same party. And for Stalin, again, you mustn't think they admired him as a communist/socialist/Marxist-Leninist, they admire Stalin in their perverted view of him. And as I said, there are Russian neo-nazis who admire Stalin, too. It's like somebody claimed that Hitler was a communist. Doesn't make sense either. ;)

Wait I right?! So they is a group of republicans that hate Ronald Reagan and love Al Gore!

[AK]

So in other words you are for a "teaching" party with no administrative power.
Precisely. All power to the working class.

But it also should help to arm the working class for revolution - something I left out.

[Chambered Word]

So in other words you are for a "teaching" party with no administrative power.

That's the whole point. We want the working class in power, not just another fucking political party. Otherwise we'd just vote Labour. :rolleyes:

[AK]

That's the whole point. We want the working class in power, not just another fucking political party. Otherwise we'd just vote Labour. :rolleyes:
Funny story, those Australian political parties. The Liberals are Conservative and the Labour party is blatantly Capitalist.