The left and running candicates in elections. Agree?

[LETSFIGHTBACK]

In my conversations with comrades about running candidates in elections, I think it sends mixed messages. 1-I know that it is a way/vehicle to speak to people about their socio-economic problems and expose the system, but it is sending a mixed message, ie the electoral system does not work, and what ever I propose if I was elected,will be struck down through the system of checks and balances, therefore I don't stand a chance of changing anything, even if I do get in.

2-during demostrations, I see comrades carrying signs that say "jobs not war" "jobs with decent wages" "afforable health care". I've asked, being that we are revolutionaries, why aren't we exposing this system throught our signs? the signs that I see comrades carrying makes me unable to distinguish them from regular democrats. What about signs that say, "END WAGE SLAVERY" "LESS WORK MORE TIME" "WORKERS CREATE THE WEALTH" "FOR WORKERS CONTROL" etc. instead of rasing the workers to a revolutionary level, they are lowering theirs to the level of a social democrat, so as not to "offend" and chase them off.
What say you.

[vyborg]

Your propaganda must always be one step ahead of the advanced workers no more no less. So your slogans should depend on the political level of the movement not on what you think about socialism.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

It is but one of the plethora of options that are available to us. I think we must stand in elections - whether we like it or not we must be involved in the process. The difference between us and 'them', is that elections for they, the Capitalist class, is an end in itself. Participating in elections, for us, Socialists and true defenders of democracy, is a means to an end - the means to highlight the shortcoming of 'liberal democratic' elections.

[LETSFIGHTBACK]

Your propaganda must always be one step ahead of the advanced workers no more no less. So your slogans should depend on the political level of the movement not on what you think about socialism.




My slogan doesn't reflect what I think about socialism, it's reflecting what I think about capitalism.
And that is, there is no such thing as a "fare" wage since all wealth that is created by the workers is expropriated, so I'm against that slogan that comrades use. once on may day I was carrying a sign that said "throw out the sell out bureaucrats". so called socialists would not march with me because they said that the workers would get angry!!!! they are preaching REVOLUTION!!! in private but are afraid of criticizing union bureaucrats out in the open that are in bed with the bosses and whom stifle any descent from within. so what do you do, walk on eggshells, rewrite your slogans, agree with positions and demans that you don't agree with just to keep on the good side of misled people with Illusions. is that being true to yourself and socialism? or are you selling out to stay on the good side of the people?

[vyborg]

Lets' be concrete. If you ask for a 20% increase in real wage, is it socialims? of course not. But if you build a mass movement to win this struggle, and you succed in winning the wage increase, is it a big victory for the workers? Of course it is. And on this victory you can build a movement to go on to win other battles and so on and so forth.

This is what Trotsky called the method of transitional programme

[LETSFIGHTBACK]

Lets' be concrete. If you ask for a 20% increase in real wage, is it socialims? of course not. But if you build a mass movement to win this struggle, and you succed in winning the wage increase, is it a big victory for the workers? Of course it is. And on this victory you can build a movement to go on to win other battles and so on and so forth.

This is what Trotsky called the method of transitional programme




I agree with what you are saying, but the problem is, workers will always be behind the 8 ball.the rate of inflation always surpasses wages. and, overall wages have been declining since the early 70's. so what I'm trying to say is,when do we stop with this cat and mouse game, chasing these little increases in wages, and level with the workers and say, they will never, ever allow workers to keep their head above water. to end this never ending fight under capitalism against people and their standard of living, is to end this system. we are not looking at the old days where every neighborhood had factories and mass production. those days are gone. the overwhelming amount of workers are in the service industry, part time, working for small business,temp and contractual work which is why unions are down, some say to 8 % of the work force.I'm not saying that we not support fights where workers are fighting for a higher wage, but we have to look at the bigger picture, and that's this economic system.

[vyborg]

Inflation was discovered as a means to low wages more or less a century ago. Communist immediately discovered the countermove...the automatic increase of wages when prices go up.

As for the location of workers...the world has never had so many industrial workers as now and so many proletarian overall. this is the first time in history the working class is the majority of the world population...socially speaking, the situation is very good

[Jimmie Higgins]

In the US in particular, the organic connection between the radical left and the working class has been severed. This was done through co-option as well as various kinds of repression (violent repression for the Black Panthers and other radical new left/black power groups) and political repression of the early 20th century left.

Unfortunately if we just stand out on a corner with a sign, people will ignore us - if be smash some windows, the "masses" won't suddenly "wake up". In my opinion most people know the system is fucked up but feel isolated about it and even if they think things can change for the better, they have no concrete examples of how to accomplish this. Radicals do have ideas about why things are fucked up and how workers can fight in their own interests and so this is where we can begin to reconnect our politics to workers and change the momentum and current direction of the class war.

For that reason I do think we need to be involved with particular reform movements - not in a passive way where we are not clear about what we stand for in the big picture, but actively and concretely. We know that business-unions suck and we can be at the ground level arguing to people about why that is. If we win the argument, then people will have been convinced of the need for militant self-action to fight for rights and reforms; if we loose the argument, we can still win people's confidence if and when the liberal leadership of a movement, the bureaucrats of a union, or the Democrats betray the workers.

So it's bad if comrades are hiding their politics - but its another to try to present our politics in a concrete way or in a way that won't alienate people from us. So if someone says: "hey isn't Obama great!" it would be wrong imo to just nod and go along to get along. But it would be just as futile to go into a movement with a "Fuck Obama" t-shirt on. Instead we should say, "hey I can see why people are excited about some of the things they hope he'll deliver. I don't think he can deliver on them becuase of the nature of the system - but if people organize we can force our government leaders to give into our demands, in fact if we are organized enough we can get rid of these leaders altogether - and the military and the bosses."

[LETSFIGHTBACK]

Inflation was discovered as a means to low wages more or less a century ago. Communist immediately discovered the countermove...the automatic increase of wages when prices go up.

As for the location of workers...the world has never had so many industrial workers as now and so many proletarian overall. this is the first time in history the working class is the majority of the world population...socially speaking, the situation is very good



What we are seeing here in the U.S is a DEINDUSTRIALIZATION because of big business going abroad to exploit workers in locked down compounds,mainly women and children, from 32 to 74 cents an hour.and I think that the young people have forgot that the goal of big business is NOT to provide jobs, but to reduce overhead which is payroll, workers from the shop floor by using technology.So when you combine technology reducing the workforce, with big business leaving for cheap labor havens abroad, this does not bode well for workers period.and that just one of the contradictions of capitalism, reduce overhead, then warehouses build up with unsold goods, which leads to more layoffs.

[vyborg]

Industrial workers are now everywhere and this is very good.
US has not lost proletariat since the 70s, on the contrary. The sectorial composition of workers changes, their role doesnt

[LETSFIGHTBACK]

Industrial workers are now everywhere and this is very good.
US has not lost proletariat since the 70s, on the contrary. The sectorial composition of workers changes, their role doesnt


explain this to me before I respond.

[Voloshinov]

explain this to me before I respond.

The working class is defined by its relation to the means of production, not in what it actually does. This being said, the way in which layers of the class are organized (collectively or not etc) obviously have a big impact on their consciousness.

[KELNOR THE OVERWASP]

absolutely. the fraudulent nature of bourgeois democracy is best exposed by participating in it. Venezuelans found out exactly how much democracy they used to have when electing the wrong man got them an attempted coup for their troubles.

[LETSFIGHTBACK]

absolutely. the fraudulent nature of bourgeois democracy is best exposed by participating in it. Venezuelans found out exactly how much democracy they used to have when electing the wrong man got them an attempted coup for their troubles.

First off, I don't agree with your view that participating within it exposes the system. second, pragmatism is a huge problem in the U.S.it has killed all imagination in people. they can't see passed their nose.they only see value in an idea if it can be immediately implemented and the results immediately benefited from. if not, the idea has no value.
thirdly do not romanticise the workers. because they have bad experiences under this system does not guarantee that they will become class concious and choose to go down a revolutionary road.there are workers that are anti welfare, anti social program,anti democratic and anti union.and as long as people keep flocking to the polls, e-mailing their "leaders" this all translates into people still having illusions, still thinking that if we just get the right party,if I put someone in office that looks like me or if I go and try keynesianism economics, back to unregulated capitalism, and round and round, making the same choice every four years.the only way people will transcend this system is if they begin to hate, despise everything about it. despise it's rules, it's culture, it's laws,it's institutions, no respect for the people that represent and serve it, their boss, his/her rules and regulations,EVERYTHING. then and only then will they transcend this shithole.

[Stranger Than Paradise]

I don't see what purpose there is from a revolutionary working class standpoint to stand in capitalist elections. The time and energy can be better used to agitate within our union movements or within other working class organisations. I DO believe in a mass organisation but no party that stands for elections NOW can claim to be that organisation.. Publicising our cause is one way it is useful i suppose as long as you are making sure you recognise the illegitimacy of the elections you stand in. Nonetheless I feel there are better ways to spend our time.

[vyborg]

I repeat what Lenin said on the argument: are you ready to substitute burgeois parliament and government by force? Are you ready to take the parliament with a battalion of red guards? If you are not, do not participate in the election is bla bla bla, pure childish pseudo-revolutionary crap.

So, dear comrades, unless you are not preparing an action for this week end to storm the parliament by force, come back to planet earth and participate to the election but with a revolutionary method and programme

[ContrarianLemming]

I think I speak for all anarchists when i say no good sir, disagree

[zimmerwald1915]

I repeat what Lenin said on the argument: are you ready to substitute burgeois parliament and government by force? Are you ready to take the parliament with a battalion of red guards? If you are not, do not participate in the election is bla bla bla, pure childish pseudo-revolutionary crap.

So, dear comrades, unless you are not preparing an action for this week end to storm the parliament by force, come back to planet earth and participate to the election but with a revolutionary method and programme
And Lenin was wrong. First of all, elections take up a great deal of time, money, and energy, all of which must be invested by a group's members. And most of the time, it doesn't pay off. Even "anticapitalist" fronts like the NPA in France get less than 3% of the vote. How exactly are really revolutionary groups supposed to do better with fewer members and fewer resources? Assuming a revolutionary group actually manages to get a member into Parliament, being there and engaging in that kind of politics has a deleterious effect on that person. It's no accident that Social Democracy's right wing was supported by the majority of the parliamentary groups when the confrontation with the left began. Finally, Parliament isn't terribly important anymore as an institution in capitalist society. Just about all states can govern fairly well with just the executive and bureaucracy, unless Parliament chooses to cut off funds--something it doesn't do unless there are factional squabbles within the bourgeoisie. When there is an actual revolutionary crisis, bourgeois deputies close ranks, and, this being a revolutionary crisis, the revolutionary deputies, assuming there are any, have been made superfluous by events.

Parliament is useless, campaigning for election to it is worse than useless.

[blake 3:17]

The working class is defined by its relation to the means of production, not in what it actually does. This being said, the way in which layers of the class are organized (collectively or not etc) obviously have a big impact on their consciousness.

You got something wrong there comrade. Being alienated from production versus not being productive is a big jump.

Capacity and ability are severely undermined when working class people are unemployed for extended periods.


1-I know that it is a way/vehicle to speak to people about their socio-economic problems and expose the system, but it is sending a mixed message, ie the electoral system does not work, and what ever I propose if I was elected,will be struck down through the system of checks and balances, therefore I don't stand a chance of changing anything, even if I do get in.


There is propaganda value in running for office. I've been interested in parties running, getting elected and then either not sitting and doing other more valuable stuff or using their offices to promote community and extraparliamentary action. I know a few very good people who've been elected and then get caught in the red tape. And that's outside partisan BS.