Responding to USian nonsense....

[Hexen]

Today, my mind has been a bit boggled after I've been talking a few people about some things and all the sudden they mention "people having different opinions is what makes us American" or "America is the only country...blah blah blah (I don't remember that person said tell you the truth)", and they go on with this nationalist bullshit about "America being a free country" although I do notice however that there is a clear translation behind their garbled vocabulary that if you replaced "American" with the word "individual", I noticed that the USian society is entirely based on individualism but the part they don't seem to understand is the fact in the US (or other capitalist societies that their unaware of...), that "individuals" are actually the capitalists themselves not them as they think are.

So basically, how can we debunk these stupid claims of the US being a "free country" and such? Although one thing I do realize though that their missing the point that the word "freedom" is a subjective term and they don't seem to understand the fact there's a huge difference between "freedom to..." and "freedom from..." which is one argument debunking these claims but is there any more I'm missing?

[SocialismOrBarbarism]

Today, my mind has been a bit boggled after I've been talking a few people about some things and all the sudden they mention "people having different opinions is what makes us American" or "America is the only country...blah blah blah (I don't remember that person said tell you the truth)", and they go on with this nationalist bullshit about "America being a free country" although I do notice however that there is a clear translation behind their garbled vocabulary that if you replaced "American" with the word "individual", I noticed that the USian society is entirely based on individualism but the part they don't seem to understand is the fact in the US (or other capitalist societies that their unaware of...), that "individuals" are actually the capitalists themselves not them as they think are.

So basically, how can we debunk these stupid claims of the US being a "free country" and such? Although one thing I do realize though that their missing the point that the word "freedom" is a subjective term and they don't seem to understand the fact there's a huge difference between "freedom to..." and "freedom from..." which is one argument debunking these claims but is there any more I'm missing?

You only have free speech as long as you aren't seen as a threat. It only takes a quick look at what happened during the red scare to prove this.

[Axle]

Compare the freedoms of businesses to the freedoms of the people working for those businesses.

The right to make a profit trumps worker's rights in America.

[Hexen]

Compare the freedoms of businesses to the freedoms of the people working for those businesses.

Specifically? I do know for one that Copyrights is one of the main sources of working class oppression which it's basically freedom of expression for the rich while they force everyone else to shut up and consume....

(oh yes I remember now...the person said "American is the only country to express yourself..." and some bullshit like that)

[Lacrimi de Chiciură]

You only have free speech as long as you aren't seen as a threat. It only takes a quick look at what happened during the red scare to prove this.

Just look at all the recent political assassinations and current political prisoners and COINTELPRO. Dhoruba bin Wahad, Mumia Abu-Jamal, Filiberto Ojedo Ríos. (http://nyc.indymedia.org/en/2005/09/57857.html)
The government will not hesitate to lock you up or shoot you down if you start to stir things up too much. Within government circles and bourgeois media, it is not even unusual that they back up the government's right to arrest citizens at will and try them on military tribunals. Seriously, wtf!!

[Cowboy Killer]

In a capitalist system you have to buy your freedom. The more money you have,the more you can do.

[JAH23]

I noticed that the USian society is entirely based on individualism but the part they don't seem to understand is the fact in the US (or other capitalist societies that their unaware of...), that "individuals" are actually the capitalists themselves not them as they think are.

This I believe to be especially true. A majority of people's opinions are what they hear talk show hosts, biased newsprint media, and churches talk about. It takes real passion and research to formulate a solid opinion which differs from the forces of the ruling class. Capitalism creates a drone out of what could be an intelligent human being.

[Dimentio]

Give them tickets to Japan or Western Europe, and they stop thinking that the USA is exceptional.

[Hexen]

Sorry to bump this thread but...

Here is another thing I usually run into is when USians also say "Don't complain about America since you can say what you want here but which in other countries you would have been shot (or put into jail) for saying these things" when everytime I and other people criticize the US or something but I'm been wondering if this true or is this typical USian horseshit? Is there anyway to debunk this claim or let alone respond to this?

[bailey_187]

Sorry to bump this thread but...

Here is another thing I usually run into is when USians also say "Don't complain about America since you can say what you want here but which in other countries you would have been shot (or put into jail) for saying these things" when everytime I and other people criticize the US or something but I'm been wondering if this true or is this typical USian horseshit? Is there anyway to debunk this claim or let alone respond to this?


in most countries you dont get shot for what u say.

but this logic is amazing lol. it says "America is so great that anyone can say what they want, so watch what u fucking say about the USA" :lol:

[Hexen]

in most countries you dont get shot for what u say.

but this logic is amazing lol. it says "America is so great that anyone can say what they want, so watch what u fucking say about the USA" :lol:

Of course they also say "If you don't like America you can get the fuck out"....hmmm....

[Invincible Summer]

Give them tickets to Japan or Western Europe, and they stop thinking that the USA is exceptional.

Seriously this. Americans who spout the inane ignorant nonsense outlined in the OP seem to be the ones that haven't tried to (or perhaps are financially unable to) look outside to the majority of the modern world.



Okay I phrased that in a way that could be construed as reactionary and Eurocentric, but I'm sure you guys know what I mean.

[Peace on Earth]

If you're a dissenter, you will be spied on and have your constitutional freedoms trampled upon (Patriot Act), have your organization infiltrated (Greenpeace), be harrassed (duh), and possibly locked up in a dirty cell with no trial (any secret holding base). How is that for the greatest nation on earth?

[Apoi_Viitor]

Today, my mind has been a bit boggled after I've been talking a few people about some things and all the sudden they mention "people having different opinions is what makes us American" or "America is the only country...blah blah blah (I don't remember that person said tell you the truth)", and they go on with this nationalist bullshit about "America being a free country" although I do notice however that there is a clear translation behind their garbled vocabulary that if you replaced "American" with the word "individual", I noticed that the USian society is entirely based on individualism but the part they don't seem to understand is the fact in the US (or other capitalist societies that their unaware of...), that "individuals" are actually the capitalists themselves not them as they think are.

So basically, how can we debunk these stupid claims of the US being a "free country" and such? Although one thing I do realize though that their missing the point that the word "freedom" is a subjective term and they don't seem to understand the fact there's a huge difference between "freedom to..." and "freedom from..." which is one argument debunking these claims but is there any more I'm missing?

Simply put, Freedom of Speech is a lie. It was made up. There will never be a country that gives 100% freedom of speech.

For example, In America (unlike China, North Korea, etc.) you have freedom from the government censoring you. What you don't have however, is freedom from corporations censoring you. Newspaper writers in America can write whatever nonsense they want - so long as it doesn't offend advertisers, the ruling class, etc. One of the statements you hear Chomsky making a lot, is when he quotes a Soviet Diplomat who on a visit to the US, remarked something along the lines of; "It's amazing how uniform the American Press is. Where as us Soviets have to use force to achieve such uniformity, the American Press simply does it voluntarily."

[ckaihatsu]

Compare the freedoms of businesses to the freedoms of the people working for those businesses.

The right to make a profit trumps worker's rights in America.


*Although* -- playing something of a devil's advocate here -- it could be argued that the freedom of business / profit can be as alienating to the individual as that experienced by any worker forced into a wage-subsistence work role. So it *literally* is the freedom of the *business* and the freedom of the *profit*, and not so much of the individual who is the business-*person* or profit-*person*....

(Granted, the rewards and compensation derived from positions of privilege are far greater than any wage, but whenever "work" is required it's for the sake of the business, profit, or personal subsistence, and *not* *directly* a *personal* expression of freedom.)





in most countries you dont get shot for what u say.

but this logic is amazing lol. it says "America is so great that anyone can say what they want, so watch what u fucking say about the USA" :lol:


"Freedom of speech" is probably a very good indicator of the balance of class forces at any given time, for any given society. If elitism is winning out the elites could flex some muscle and get their kicks by making some heads roll over "speech" issues, bully-style. But if the masses have some momentum and are better-organized "speech" issues are not even noticed, in favor of much-more-tangible events unfolding, like factory seizures, or liberating prisoners, or things like that....

[Thirsty Crow]

*Although* -- playing something of a devil's advocate here -- it could be argued that the freedom of business / profit can be as alienating to the individual as that experienced by any worker forced into a wage-subsistence work role. So it *literally* is the freedom of the *business* and the freedom of the *profit*, and not so much of the individual who is the business-*person* or profit-*person*....

(Granted, the rewards and compensation derived from positions of privilege are far greater than any wage, but whenever "work" is required it's for the sake of the business, profit, or personal subsistence, and *not* *directly* a *personal* expression of freedom.)





I don't think that you were playing the devil's advocate, but that you outlined correctly the notion that alienation is total in class societies (a notion I've been flirting with for a while).

[ckaihatsu]

the notion that alienation is total in class societies (a notion I've been flirting with for a while).


Being something of a "Wilde-ist" (strictly for political / societal content), here's an excerpt from the single best source of political reading you could ever find:





Wilde, _The Soul of Man Under Socialism_

The possession of private property is very often extremely demoralising, and that is, of course, one of the reasons why Socialism wants to get rid of the institution. In fact, property is really a nuisance. Some years ago people went about the country saying that property has duties. They said it so often and so tediously that, at last, the Church has begun to say it. One hears it now from every pulpit. It is perfectly true. Property not merely has duties, but has so many duties that its possession to any large extent is a bore. It involves endless claims upon one, endless attention to business, endless bother. If property had simply pleasures, we could stand it; but its duties make it unbearable. In the interest of the rich we must get rid of it.

http://www.gutenberg.org/dirs/etext97/slman10.txt