Arguing with conservative Christians

[SouthernBelle82]

It's always annoying arguing with Christian conservatives about Jesus and the poor. Now on FB I'm in a sorta discussion about a message Paul said basically saying that people don't deserve food unless they work. It totally goes opposite of Jesus's message of love and helping people regardless. I've posted Bible verses supporting Jesus's messages and people either ignored it or said how it doesn't apply to the governments. So I'm just curious how you guys deal with this nonsense. People call the poor lazy and all the typical right wing nonsese.

[CartCollector]

Now on FB I'm in a sorta discussion about a message Paul said basically saying that people don't deserve food unless they work.Do these people believe that fetuses are people? If they do, ask them whether fetuses work. If they say no, point out that by their own logic, fetuses deserve to starve.

[SouthernBelle82]

Do these people believe that fetuses are people? If they do, ask them whether fetuses work. If they say no, point out that by their own logic, fetuses deserve to starve.

Then that'd get into the whole abortion debate and I'd never get any sleep or homework done lol. :crying:

[spiltteeth]

Sojourners is a progressive Christian commentary on faith, politics and culture. It seeks to build a movement of spirituality and social change.
Check them out here :http://www.sojo.net/

Glen Beck is doing a whole week involving Sojourners founder Jim Wallis, whom he refuses to have on his show.

In the book of Matthew Jesus says, “If any
one wants to sue you and take away your tunic, let him have your cloak also. And whoever compels you to go one mile, go with him two. Give to him who asks you, and from him who wants to borrow from you do not turn away…Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal; but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also…. No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be loyal to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and money.”

the first Christians lived in communes where wealth was shared, and you made sure you took care of your neighbors.

We are clearly commanded by God to feed the poor, support widows and orphans, and look after the sick.

My 3 favs from the bible :

John the Baptist exhorted his hearers to change their lives. When the crowd asked him what to do, John replied
Whoever has two coats must share with anyone who has none; and whoever has food must do likewise (Luke 3:11).


ames 2:

14 What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him?
15 Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food.
16 If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it?
17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
18 But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds." Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.

James 5: James 5 Warning to Rich Oppressors:

1Now listen, you rich people, weep and wail because of the misery that is coming upon you.
2Your wealth has rotted, and moths have eaten your clothes.
3Your gold and silver are corroded. Their corrosion will testify against you and eat your flesh like fire. You have hoarded wealth in the last days.
4Look! The wages you failed to pay the workmen who mowed your fields are crying out against you. The cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord Almighty. 5You have lived on earth in luxury and self-indulgence. You have fattened yourselves in the day of slaughter.[a]
6You have condemned and murdered innocent men, who were not opposing you.

[LeftSideDown]

Do these people believe that fetuses are people? If they do, ask them whether fetuses work. If they say no, point out that by their own logic, fetuses deserve to starve.

Win.

[SouthernBelle82]

The problem comes when one would say "oh this is with individual Christian's not the government."

[spiltteeth]

The problem comes when one would say "oh this is with individual Christian's not the government."

If the government goes against God's law then the government must go, not God's*law.

One of the first prominent religious thinkers to use the term "social justice" was the Jesuit Luigi Taparelli in the 1840s, but the term appeared before the 1800s, including in the Federalist Papers

The idea was elaborated by the moral theologian John A. Ryan, who initiated the concept of a living wage.

Check out the Catholic social teaching.
It's a doctrine developed by the Catholic Church on matters of poverty and wealth, economics, social organization and the role of the state.
Its foundations are widely considered to have been laid by Pope Leo XIII's 1891 encyclical letter Rerum Novarum.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_social_teaching#Preferential_Option_for_t he_poor_and_vulnerable

Pope Leo XIII, who studied under Taparelli, published in 1891 the encyclical Rerum Novarum (On the Condition of the Working Classes), rejecting both socialism and capitalism, while defending labor unions and private property.

He stated that society should be based on cooperation and not class conflict and competition.
In this document, Leo set out the Catholic Church's response to the social instability and labor conflict that had arisen in the wake of industrialization and had led to the rise of socialism.
The Pope taught that the role of the State is to promote social justice through the protection of rights, while the Church must speak out on social issues in order to teach correct social principles and ensure class harmony.

According to the Catholic church Society must pursue economic justice and the economy must serve people, not the other way around. Employers must not
"look upon their work people as their bondsmen, but ... respect in every man his dignity as a person ennobled by Christian character."

Also, Workers have a right to work, to earn a living wage, and to form trade unions to protect their interests. All workers have a right to productive work, to decent and fair wages, and to safe working conditions.

the Church's canon law states,
"[The Christian faithful] are also obliged to promote social justice and, mindful of the precept of the Lord, to assist the poor from their own resources."

The moral test of any society is
"how it treats its most vulnerable members. The poor have the most urgent moral claim on the conscience of the nation. We are called to look at public policy decisions in terms of how they affect the poor."

The encyclical Quadragesimo Anno -On Reconstruction of the Social Order,of 1931 by Pope Pius XI, encourages a living wage, subsidiarity, and teaches that social justice is a personal virtue as well as an attribute of the social order: society can be just only if individuals and institutions are just.

Pope Benedict XVI's encyclical Deus Caritas Est ("God is Love") of 2006 teaches that justice is the defining concern of the state and the central concern of politics, and not of the church, which has charity as its central social concern. The laity has the specific responsibility of pursuing social justice in civil society.

http://i971.photobucket.com/albums/ae191/spiltteeth/Camaraquotefood.jpg

[SouthernBelle82]

Thanks everyone. :) The verses from John the Baptist's and other's helped. The person was using Paul's quote that when people don't work they don't eat. Of course I pointed out that Jesus had a different view of the poor since he was poor himself and so was his family. He was a poor Jewish man from Palestine. When Jesus ever healed or fed people he never asked people for money or work later. The person mentioned Jesus did ask for faith but that's not money. I'm just so amazed to see supposed Christian's have such attitude's about the poor saying how people are lazy and all this other stuff.

[mikelepore]

I don't think that's correct, SouthernBelle82. Jesus and the apostles walked away from their former professions, and they lived on the economic support contributed by others. That was the point of the lecture in Matthew 6 about "Look at the birds of the air. They do not sow or reap, or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly father feeds them." He didn't mean that food would magically appear. He meant that volunteers who would join them would be able to eat by begging for charity.

[SouthernBelle82]

I don't think that's correct, SouthernBelle82. Jesus and the apostles walked away from their former professions, and they lived on the economic support contributed by others. That was the point of the lecture in Matthew 6 about "Look at the birds of the air. They do not sow or reap, or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly father feeds them." He didn't mean that food would magically appear. He meant that volunteers who would join them would be able to eat by begging for charity.

What isn't correct? I said quite a good bit in this thread so it'd help if you were more specific. And it goes to my point that they didn't own anything.

[Demogorgon]

You can find support for anything you like in the Bible. When dealing with Conservative Christians you have to realise that you are dealing with Conservatives who reinforce their views with passages picked from the Bible. While quoting contrary scripture back at them will certainly break their argument and make you the winner in the eyes of the rational onlooker, you won't change their mind, they will just brush it aside.

Conservatism itself needs to be attacked if you are to have any hope of making them question their views.

[Drace]

Just bash him with all the anti-capitalist quotes.

[SouthernBelle82]

You can find support for anything you like in the Bible. When dealing with Conservative Christians you have to realise that you are dealing with Conservatives who reinforce their views with passages picked from the Bible. While quoting contrary scripture back at them will certainly break their argument and make you the winner in the eyes of the rational onlooker, you won't change their mind, they will just brush it aside.

Conservatism itself needs to be attacked if you are to have any hope of making them question their views.

That's true. But what makes them read the Bible and see it be conservative and me read the Bible and see it as socialism? One reason why I am a communist is because of Jesus's teachings of the poor and social justice and all that. So it's interesting we read and study the same book but come to different conclusions.

[SouthernBelle82]

Just bash him with all the anti-capitalist quotes.

Oh definitely. Jesus was very much anti-capitalist. This person was quoting Paul (who I personally have never really liked).

[mikelepore]

What isn't correct? I said quite a good bit in this thread so it'd help if you were more specific. And it goes to my point that they didn't own anything.

I meant where you said:


When Jesus ever healed or fed people he never asked people for money or work later. The person mentioned Jesus did ask for faith but that's not money.

Actually you're right. They didn't use money. What I really meant to say was: when they walked to other villages and made speeches, the people fed them. Like we today buy tickets to get into a live show, in those days traveling philosophers and poets worked for their supper. That's like making a career of it.

About eight centuries earlier, Homer did the same thing. The Iliad and the Odyssey were stories he would recite over the dinner table or campfire, so this traveling around and reciting was his source of sustenance.

What I was trying to get as was, someone mentioned the comment which is in 2nd Thessalonians 3 regarding those who do not work, neither shall they eat, and considering whether Paul was inconsistent with Jesus. I'm suggesting the answer was: no, because if everyone just preached, there would be no crops. But not everyone is going to become a preacher. I think Paul was supporting the work ethic, because we need those "other" people to grow the crops. But let someone else do it, because "our" work is preaching.

[SouthernBelle82]

I meant where you said:



Actually you're right. They didn't use money. What I really meant to say was: when they walked to other villages and made speeches, the people fed them. Like we today buy tickets to get into a live show, in those days traveling philosophers and poets worked for their supper. That's like making a career of it.

About eight centuries earlier, Homer did the same thing. The Iliad and the Odyssey were stories he would recite over the dinner table or campfire, so this traveling around and reciting was his source of sustenance.

What I was trying to get as was, someone mentioned the comment which is in 2nd Thessalonians 3 regarding those who do not work, neither shall they eat, and considering whether Paul was inconsistent with Jesus. I'm suggesting the answer was: no, because if everyone just preached, there would be no crops. But not everyone is going to become a preacher. I think Paul was supporting the work ethic, because we need those "other" people to grow the crops. But let someone else do it, because "our" work is preaching.

Well Jesus, at least in the stories in the Bible, didn't actively go out and ask people to pay him in money or food or housing or whatever. If people gave him something himself I'm sure he wouldn't refuse like the woman who washed Jesus's feet and dried them with her hair and when he visited friends and had meals with them etc. So Paul was a leecher then? So would he be the perfect example of (what they call) a "welfare queen"? His work before he became a preacher was killing and prosecuting Christian's.
But yes Paul, after he converted, was always a preacher and didn't work at all since he wasn't paid for his work and he was always traveling and probably staying with other people. I don't recall there being mentioned him paying bills or anything.