Response to Reactionary Drivel

[Nolan]

What most people don't know is that Marx was an out and out racist and anti-Semite. He didn't think much of Mexicans. Concerning the annexation of California after the Mexican-American War, Marx wrote: "Without violence, nothing is ever accomplished in history." Then he asks, "Is it a misfortune that magnificent California was seized from the lazy Mexicans who did not know what to do with it?" Friedrich Engels, Marx's co-author of the "Manifesto of the Communist Party," added, "In America, we have witnessed the conquest of Mexico and have rejoiced at it. It is to the interest of its own development that Mexico will be placed under the tutelage of the United States." Much of Marx's ideas can be found in a book written by former communist Nathaniel Weyl, titled "Karl Marx, Racist" (1979).

In a July 1862 letter to Engels, in reference to his socialist political competitor, Ferdinand Lassalle, Marx wrote, "... it is now completely clear to me that he, as is proved by his cranial formation and his hair, descends from the Negroes from Egypt, assuming that his mother or grandmother had not interbred with a nigger. Now this union of Judaism and Germanism with a basic Negro substance must produce a peculiar product. The obtrusiveness of the fellow is also nigger-like."

Engels shared much of Marx's racial philosophy. In 1887, Paul Lafargue, who was Marx's son-in-law, was a candidate for a council seat in a Paris district that contained a zoo. Engels claimed that Paul had "one-eighth or one-twelfth nigger blood." In an April 1887 letter to Paul's wife, Engels wrote, "Being in his quality as a nigger, a degree nearer to the rest of the animal kingdom than the rest of us, he is undoubtedly the most appropriate representative of that district."



Looks like the Becksters have been busy. Tear this apart please.

[Audeamus]

Keeping in mind that I cannot even find where these quotes came from, it is important to remember the context in which Marx and Engles lived and wrote. That being the mid to late 19th century, when racial bias was the norm. That is not meant to be an excuse for any kind of racial bias, but context for those biases. If one would look at liberals of the time, one would find highly racist people, yet this is not attacked in the same way. It would also be good to note the fact that Marx called for the abolition of slavery in the United States, writing a letter to Lincoln praising anti-slavery actions.

And last time I checked, Marx was not Jesus. Marxists generally do not accept every word ever uttered or written by Marx to be gospel, and accept that he was human, a product of his time, and made mistakes.

[Tablo]

Marx wasn't a racist. It is good to also know that even if he was it was the norm back then to be racist.

[CartCollector]

Ask them whether Marx and Engels ever owned slaves. Point out that Washington and Jefferson did. Then note that Abraham Lincoln didn't see blacks as equal to whites and at one point wanted to ship them all back to Africa, just like white supremacists do today. For the final blow (if they like Glenn Beck) point out that Beck belongs to the Mormon church, which teaches that dark skin is a curse from God.
That ought to shut them up.
Also, on Marx's anti-semitism, Hal Draper wrote a good rebuttal back in 1977: http://marxists.org/archive/draper/1977/kmtr1/app1.htm

[SocialismOrBarbarism]

I fail to see how referring to the Mexican government as lazy because it has yet to develop part of it's territory could be construed as racism.

[Crusade]

Marx was clearly a racist. I don't buy the "during those times" apologists under any circumstances, including sexism in the panther party or Che's homophobia. Thank goodness I'm not a Marxist though, those comments are absolutely amazing. That goes beyond things I've heard SLAVE owners say. Marxism, however, isn't racist. The fact that an ideology so dedicated to equality was developed by such an obvious racist is pretty damn amazing. An idea is an idea, regardless of where it came from. The defining messengers of black/brown liberation were Marxists. This is one of the reasons why the (edit)idolism of these people annoy me so much. If you can use context consideration to excuse bigotry, you have to do the same for their political beliefs as well.

[Nolan]

Marx was clearly a racist. I don't buy the "during those times" apologists under any circumstances.

I don't know if this is true. But for my paragraph here I'll assume it is. It doesn't matter if you "buy it" or not, the fact is the culture of the time was explicitly racist, and academia at the time was flirting with the pseudoscience of "scientific racism." It's not surprising Marx got caught it this to some extent, it would be something special if he hadn't. What matters is that Marx and Engels were ages ahead of their times. They called for the workers of the world to unite, not white workers, not European workers. You DONT want me to dig up quotes by certain anarchists, so don't give me that shit about "I'm glad I'm not a Marxist." Damn anarchists on your high horse :lol:

If it turns out this is utter bullshit, which is the most likely outcome, then joke's on you.

[Audeamus]

Marx was clearly a racist. I don't buy the "during those times" apologists under any circumstances, including sexism in the panther party or Che's homophobia. Thank goodness I'm not a Marxist though, those comments are absolutely amazing. That goes beyond things I've heard SLAVE owners say. Marxism, however, isn't racist. The fact that an ideology so dedicated to equality was developed by such an obvious racist is pretty damn amazing. An idea is an idea, regardless of where it came from. The defining messengers of black/brown liberation were Marxists. This is one of the reasons why the (edit)idolism of these people annoy me so much. If you can use context consideration to excuse bigotry, you have to do the same for their political beliefs as well.

You seem to be confusing attempts to understand why Marx held certian views based on the conditions of his time with an attempt to justify them. Or do you think his views just sprang up out of nowhere?

[Common_Means]

Marx was clearly a racist. I don't buy the "during those times" apologists under any circumstances, including sexism in the panther party or Che's homophobia. Thank goodness I'm not a Marxist though, those comments are absolutely amazing. That goes beyond things I've heard SLAVE owners say. Marxism, however, isn't racist. The fact that an ideology so dedicated to equality was developed by such an obvious racist is pretty damn amazing. An idea is an idea, regardless of where it came from. The defining messengers of black/brown liberation were Marxists. This is one of the reasons why the (edit)idolism of these people annoy me so much. If you can use context consideration to excuse bigotry, you have to do the same for their political beliefs as well.

You have been on these forums longer than me, so I don't want to get into your post - where I disagree with almost everyone of your assertions and conclusions - but I must ask, what exactly do you consider Marxism to be?

[mikelepore]

My answer to that is: so what? No reason for why it should matter has been offered. Marx made important discoveries. The validity of ideas is unconnected to whether the originator of those ideas was a nice person. If we found out that the inventor of the light bulb had serious character defects, would all the light bulbs stop operating? If we found out that Euclid had many character defects, would geometry stop working?

[Kléber]

Some of Marx and Engels' comments about people of African descent, and homosexuality, were stupid and reactionary. Anyone who denies that needs to get with the times and/or read more Marx and Engels. If they were alive today I'm sure M&E themselves would be ashamed of that crap they said, near the end of his life Marx was even spending time in Africa to learn from cultures there. Nevertheless, the racist stuff they said shows that socialist ideology could only emerge in the leisurely academic atmosphere of super-profit imperialism.. the racism in the socialist movement wasn't properly addressed until the Third International of Lenin's time (and it still persists even). Socialism had to go further than M&E themselves, and critically analyze its own history as a movement, in order to be more successful.

[Crusade]

You have been on these forums longer than me, so I don't want to get into your post - where I disagree with almost everyone of your assertions and conclusions - but I must ask, what exactly do you consider Marxism to be?

That's a pretty broad question. Before I answer I wanna say that I don't disagree with primary principles of Marxism, but some of his theories I strongly disagree with. So when I say I'm not a "Marxist" I don't mean I'm not a socialist. I'm definitely a socialist. What I disagree with is his theories of how the revolution should occur. I don't want a "dictatorship of the proletariat". I'm an anarchist and don't believe the transitional state is necessary.(I answer your question here ------>) If you were looking at the general principles of Marxism, then pretty much every socialist could be considered a Marxist, including me. By "Marxism", I'm specifically referring to socialists who believe in the state socialist transitional stage. Not that I'm being dogmatic about it. I consider any form of socialism an improvement over today's conditions, but I don't see anyone giving up state power in favor of communism, even when it's no longer necessary.

Sorry if I jumped around for the answer a bit, there was a bunch I needed to make clear first.

[Crusade]

I don't know if this is true. But for my paragraph here I'll assume it is. It doesn't matter if you "buy it" or not, the fact is the culture of the time was explicitly racist, and academia at the time was flirting with the pseudoscience of "scientific racism." It's not surprising Marx got caught it this to some extent, it would be something special if he hadn't. What matters is that Marx and Engels were ages ahead of their times. They called for the workers of the world to unite, not white workers, not European workers. You DONT want me to dig up quotes by certain anarchists, so don't give me that shit about "I'm glad I'm not a Marxist." Damn anarchists on your high horse :lol:

If it turns out this is utter bullshit, which is the most likely outcome, then joke's on you.

:lol: Alright sorry about the "glad I'm not a Marxist" thing. That was stupid of me. Friends? :(

[SocialismOrBarbarism]

It's kind of hard to say Marx was a racist based on one insult that Engels made and some other quotes that are taken out of context.

[4N4RCHY]

Marx was clearly a racist. I don't buy the "during those times" apologists under any circumstances, including sexism in the panther party or Che's homophobia. Thank goodness I'm not a Marxist though, those comments are absolutely amazing. That goes beyond things I've heard SLAVE owners say. Marxism, however, isn't racist. The fact that an ideology so dedicated to equality was developed by such an obvious racist is pretty damn amazing. An idea is an idea, regardless of where it came from. The defining messengers of black/brown liberation were Marxists. This is one of the reasons why the (edit)idolism of these people annoy me so much. If you can use context consideration to excuse bigotry, you have to do the same for their political beliefs as well.
http://img509.imageshack.us/img509/5067/coolface.jpg

Don't feed the trolls, guys.

[ZombieGrits]

Marx was Jewish. Thus, not antisemitic
:thumbup1:

[Invincible Summer]

My answer to that is: so what? No reason for why it should matter has been offered. Marx made important discoveries. The validity of ideas is unconnected to whether the originator of those ideas was a nice person. If we found out that the inventor of the light bulb had serious character defects, would all the light bulbs stop operating? If we found out that Euclid had many character defects, would geometry stop working?


Indeed. I find lots of conservatives (and some people on the left too, of course) tend to use character flaws as arguments against concepts and ideas.

In fact, that's what the whole of Beck's "Revolutionary Holocaust" is... ad hominem attacks.

[Crusade]

Don't feed the trolls, guys.

Really? ok

[Tablo]

Marx was Jewish. Thus, not antisemitic
:thumbup1:
I don't believe his family was ethnically Jewish, but I believe his family did convert so his father could go to law school.

Please correct me if I am wrong.

[4N4RCHY]

I don't believe his family was ethnically Jewish, but I believe his family did convert so his father could go to law school.

Please correct me if I am wrong.

http://www.nndb.com/people/740/000029653/


Jewish ancestry, father converted to Protestantism.

[Tablo]

http://www.nndb.com/people/740/000029653/
I see. Haha, I got the opposite, but this seems to be in direct opposition to the idea that he was anti-semitic other than his opposition to the Judaic faith.

[Devrim]

Engels shared much of Marx's racial philosophy. In 1887, Paul Lafargue, who was Marx's son-in-law, was a candidate for a council seat in a Paris district that contained a zoo. Engels claimed that Paul had "one-eighth or one-twelfth nigger blood." In an April 1887 letter to Paul's wife, Engels wrote, "Being in his quality as a nigger, a degree nearer to the rest of the animal kingdom than the rest of us, he is undoubtedly the most appropriate representative of that district."

What a bizarre conception. One eighth would obviously mean one great grandparent. What is 'one twelfth' supposed to mean?

Devrim

[ZeroNowhere]

Marx was clearly a racist. I don't buy the "during those times" apologists under any circumstances, including sexism in the panther party or Che's homophobia. Thank goodness I'm not a Marxist though, those comments are absolutely amazing. That goes beyond things I've heard SLAVE owners say. Marxism, however, isn't racist. The fact that an ideology so dedicated to equality was developed by such an obvious racist is pretty damn amazing. An idea is an idea, regardless of where it came from. The defining messengers of black/brown liberation were Marxists. This is one of the reasons why the (edit)idolism of these people annoy me so much. If you can use context consideration to excuse bigotry, you have to do the same for their political beliefs as well.
Thank you for not contributing to the thread.


What most people don't know is that Marx was an out and out racist and anti-Semite.Anti-Semite? To be honest, I don't actually recall reading Marx talking about any Jewish race, whether positively, neutrally or negatively. In 'On the Jewish Question', for example, he was quite clear that he was talking about Judaism, the religion, and in 'The German Ideology', where he makes a humorous comment comparing the bourgeoisie and marriage to Jews evading the law, which would surely be held up as a shining example of his anti-Semitism, except that he had used the term, "religious Jew," so people looking to impute anti-Semitism on him had to look elsewhere.


Engels shared much of Marx's racial philosophy. In 1887, Paul Lafargue, who was Marx's son-in-law, was a candidate for a council seat in a Paris district that contained a zoo. Engels claimed that Paul had "one-eighth or one-twelfth nigger blood." In an April 1887 letter to Paul's wife, Engels wrote, "Being in his quality as a nigger, a degree nearer to the rest of the animal kingdom than the rest of us, he is undoubtedly the most appropriate representative of that district."I have not actually found this quote, but I recall Engels having been fairly facetious the other time he linked Lafargue with niggers:

It was chiefly in honour of Paul that he consented to become Lord Chief Justice of the Niger Niggers, the very cream of Nigrition Niger Nigerdom. We are all very sorry to lose him, but he has been looking out for something of the sort for more than a year and this is an excellent place. He owes his appointment not only to his legal qualifications, but very much, also, to his being an accomplished geologist and botanist and ex-volunteer officer — all qualities very valuable in a new country.
Marx also referred to him as, "Our negro", so it would seem that a running joke of some sort is quite possible here, especially since Engels was quite well known as a parodist before he even became a communist.


Some of Marx and Engels' comments about people of African descent, and homosexuality, were stupid and reactionary.Technically, last I recall, we only have one comment by Engels on homosexuality, rather than anything particularly plural, and that too without any real context.

[RedAnarchist]

http://img509.imageshack.us/img509/5067/coolface.jpg

Don't feed the trolls, guys.

Please do not post spam pictures like this on the forum. Consider this a verbal warning.

[Kléber]

They also made some racist comments about Lassalle, based on his curly hair. It was, as you say a parody or "running joke," Marx didn't have straight hair either, and Engels called his bff "the Moor" because of his relatively dark skin. So yeah, they weren't being serious racists, and stuff they have said in support of colonized peoples contradicts all of that, but the racist jokes shouldn't be defended.

Also, Engels and Marx made fun of gay people as "pederasts" in some correspondence IIRC.

[HEAD ICE]

It doesn't matter if Karl Marx was a racist, what matters is if his ideas are valid. I haven't read everything Marx ever wrote, but from what I have I haven't detected any racial foundations for his beliefs.

Sometimes people's racial beliefs cloud their thinking, that is obvious. Much of the famed 'debates' between Marx and Bakunin were pretty much bullshit bickering over semantics and I suspect most of it had to do with Bakunin hating Jews.

[Kléber]

Of course, if Marxist historical and economic analysis didn't provide the best weapons against racism, lots of people wouldn't be Marxists. The contradictions between Marx's racist prejudices and his own social science just shows that we shouldn't take everything they said to be part of some infallible classical canon.

IIRC, he called Bakunin a filthy Russian and Bakunin responded that Marx was a dirty Jew.

[RadioRaheem84]

Well I was always under the impression that Marxism was never about the liberation of anyone but the working class and therefore didn't really talk much about issues concerning homosexuality or race. That liberation of the working class would take care of most social ills.

I thought that most of what we know about Marxism now and it's anti-racism, anti-homophobia and the fight for the homeless was later inserted during the 20th century, then solidified in the 60s, notably with Marcuse school of thought.

[Kléber]

The Third or Communist International broke with the racist, pro-colonialist Second International and advocated anti-colonial revolutions, ordering Communists to support them but maintain their party or factional independence, try to gain leadership of such struggles and transition them into proletarian revolutions. Some racism persisted, for example the South African Communist Party initially banned black members, although Lenin attacked the white chauvinist leadership and the Comintern threatened to expel them, so the SACP soon became a predominantly black organization. Foreign policy considerations led the USSR to revise some of its support for national struggles, those in India and SE Asia were abandoned when Britain and France became "Allies," and in 1943 the Comintern was axed altogether. However, when there was a flareup of anti-colonial struggles in the late 1960's, the USSR abandoned the doctrine of "peaceful coexistence" and started heavily supporting them again.

As for homophobia, there had briefly been a period of liberalization following the 1917 revolution, the Bolshevik foreign affairs commissar Chicherin was gay for example, and there was a spectrum of opinions on homosexuality within Soviet medicine; some considered it a disease, others thought it was perfectly normal. Homosexuality itself was legal in Russia but some local Communist governments in Central Asia voted to ban sodomy and there was a nasty unethical experiment in Russia in the 1920's where some doctors tried to "cure" a few gay male prostitutes. However, Soviet culture and opinion took a conservative turn in the late 20's, abortion and anal sex were banned in 1936. Compare this to the legal status of LGBT in France - legalized in 1791, outlawed by the reactionary Napoleonic Code.

[A Revolutionary Tool]

I'd also like to throw the fact out there that "Negro" was not a racist term back in those days. Negro back then was the black or African-American(If you live in America obviously) today. Also back in those days who was not homophobic? If I remember Bernstein was the first socialist to come out and openly support the gay community.

[Nolan]

Takin' on reactionaries, and got this thrown at me about Marx's supposed anti-semitism:


How can these quotes be read out of context:
"The Jews of Poland are the smeariest of all races."
"What is the Jew's foundation in our world? Material necessity, private advantage."
"What is the object of the Jew's worship in this world? Usury. What is his worldly god? Money."
"Ramsgate is full of Jews and fleas."

That's only a few quotes.
I suppose you also believe that Muhammed's anti-Jewish hatred, which is continued by Muslims today, is also "out of context"...

[CartCollector]

First of all, ask them where these quotes are from. If they can't tell you, then the burden of proof is on them to prove that they're not made up. Second, point out that Marx is ethnically Jewish himself, and it would make no sense for Marx to insult his own race.

[Audeamus]

First of all, ask them where these quotes are from. If they can't tell you, then the burden of proof is on them to prove that they're not made up. Second, point out that Marx is ethnically Jewish himself, and it would make no sense for Marx to insult his own race.

I imagine they got them from A World Without Jews, a translation of On the Jewish Question edited by Dagobert D. Runes.

[Nolan]

I imagine they got them from A World Without Jews, a translation of On the Jewish Question edited by Dagobert D. Runes.

Edited?

[Audeamus]

Edited?

An editor in the publishing sense of organizing anthologies and compilations, most likely with their own introduction to the work. I haven't read the text itself so I can't say what exactly he did, but I have heard of it and know it has been criticized for distorting the text in some way.

Also, the quotes mentioned do not even appear in On the Jewish Question, so I imagine they may have come from Marx's personal correspondence.

[Nolan]

An editor in the publishing sense of organizing anthologies and compilations, most likely with their own introduction to the work. I haven't read the text itself so I can't say what exactly he did, but I have heard of it and know it has been criticized for distorting the text in some way.

Also, the quotes mentioned do not even appear in On the Jewish Question, so I imagine they may have come from Marx's personal correspondence.

It makes it sound like some Holocaust blueprint. I can see why.

[Jimmie Higgins]

I'd also like to throw the fact out there that "Negro" was not a racist term back in those days. Negro back then was the black or African-American(If you live in America obviously) today. Also back in those days who was not homophobic? If I remember Bernstein was the first socialist to come out and openly support the gay community.Most western Europeans didn't even seriously consider a homosexual as a particular subculture until after Oscar Wilde was put on trial for it. Homosexual as a separate category of sexuality didn't even exist until the 1880s, so I think historical context is important when we consider these things. Additionally, even if Engles did have some bigoted ideas about same-sex relationships, this was never reflected in their political positions or public speeches or anything like that. As far as I know the main proof of Marx or Engels homophobia is a private letter... imagine if people went through all of our emails to our friends trying to prove that we were bigoted in some way - I'm sure they would find it if they were looking.

I think there is a difference too between someone like them making a bigoted remark about homosexual acts at a time when gay identity was only just forming and barely known verses people in the new left holding onto sexist or homophobic ideas in the face of popular movements for LGBT and Woman's liberation.