Third intifada in pipeline: PLO official

[IrishWorker]

If this happens all Left thinking internationalist anti imperialists should support it by picketing Israeli embassies over the world victory to the PFLP and the PLO.



http://www.presstv.com/detail.aspx?id=120945&sectionid=351020202

Third intifada in pipeline: PLO official
Tue, 16 Mar 2010 10:23:37 GMT
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Ahmed Qurei, former Palestinian Authority prime minister and member of the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) Executive Committee
The Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) warns a third uprising will ensue if Israel pushes ahead with its practices in East Jerusalem (al-Quds).

"If matters remain at this level, regardless of whether we take the decision or not, it [an intifada] is coming. If Israel continues these practices, it is coming," Ma'an news agency quoted the organization's executive committee member, Ahmed Qurei, as saying.

Intifada "is not a matter of official decision, but rather it arises from the culmination of oppression, injustice, aggression and tyranny. It is something the people decide," Qurei told reporters during a Monday news conference in his office in East al-Quds.

"This is what happened with the two previous intifadas," he recalled.

Qurei criticized repeated attempts by Tel Aviv to change the city's demographic nature and the threat the regime posed to Arab Muslim and Christian identity. Israel's policy is aimed at severing al-Quds from negotiations and fully annexing the city to Israel, he added.

On Monday, a synagogue rededication ceremony, a few hundred meters away from the al-Aqsa Mosque compound, drew angry protests from Palestinians and prompted Hamas to call for massive demonstrations and dubbed Tuesday Palestinians' "day of rage."

Qurei, too, condemned the reopening of the Hurva synagogue as a "dangerous program" seeking to "Judaize" al-Quds and to falsify history.

The PLO official also spoke of unprecedented aggression and provocation from Israelis, citing a recent leaflet distributed by radical Jews calling on non-Jews to leave al-Quds amid mounting speculations of an Israeli takeover of the al-Aqsa Mosque compound.

Revealing an 1882 map of al-Quds, which illustrated planned Israeli settlements, the former Palestinian prime minister said it proved "an unprecedented danger, which targets its land, people, holy sites, heritage and history."

Despite intense security measures by Israeli authorities on Tuesday and the presence of some 3,000 security forces in al-Quds, thousands of angry Palestinians gathered in different neighborhoods of the city and protested the restoration of the synagogue.

Israeli forces clashed with the Palestinian protestors and fired rubber bullets and stun grenades to disperse the demonstrators.

MRS/SC/DT

[IrishWorker]

Israel endures Palestinian “day of rage” as Washington fumes on sidelines

As Israel attempts to console Washington over an ill-timed announcement on new settlement construction, Palestinians have also weighed in on the matter, with violence erupting in East Jerusalem on Tuesday.

The White House is still stinging over the slap it received at the hands of Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, whose government last week announced the construction of 1,600 new Jewish settlements in occupied East Jerusalem at the very same time that Vice President Joseph Biden was in town, trumping for peace.

Read more

Biden snubbed Netanyahu the next day by showing up 90 minutes late to a scheduled dinner while Mr. and Mrs. Netanyahu were left waiting on opposite sides of small Israeli and American flags that decorated the table. Needless to say, when the Bidens finally arrived, the table talk was strained.

But Washington’s response to what was quickly interpreted as a deliberate and destructive move for purely political means did not stop there. Ironically, the first time Team Obama took off its kid gloves and showed some backbone was against its long-term ally.

US Secretary Hillary Clinton weighed in first by stressing its support of a two-state solution, while calling the surprise announcement of new Jewish settlement construction “insulting”.

“We have to make clear to our Israeli friends and partners that the two-state solution – which we support, which the prime minister himself says he supports – requires confidence-building measures on both sides,” Clinton told CNN. “And the announcement of the settlements the very day that the vice president was there was insulting.”

The controversial construction announcement is set to take place in the Ramat Shlomo neighborhood – a disputed territory in East Jerusalem that Palestinians want as the capital of their future state. Western-backed Palestinian president Mahmud Abbas said he would not return to peace talks without a complete settlements freeze.

Next up was David Axelrod, Senior Advisor for Barack Obama.

“We just got proximity talks going between the Palestinians and the Israelis, and this seemed calculated to undermine that,” Axelrod told ABC News. “I think the Israelis understand why we are upset and what it is we want to see move forward.”

Finally, a visit to Israel by US special envoy George Mitchell was cancelled on Tuesday pending Israel’s response to a series of American demands.

Mitchell had been due to leave Washington for Israel early on Monday but delayed his trip in the latest sign that the Obama administration's patience has run out over Israel's refusal to stop new settlement construction.

“Netanyahu has refused to draw a line under a crisis in Israeli-US relations that erupted last week when Israel announced plans for 1,600 new housing units in Ramat Shlomo, an orthodox Jewish suburb beyond the Green Line in the northeast of the city,” Haaretz, the Israeli daily reported on Tuesday.

Despite the American warnings, Israel would continue to build in Jerusalem, Netanyahu said on Monday.

“For the past 40 years, no Israeli government ever limited construction in the neighborhoods of Jerusalem,” he said.

Israel's announcement attracted criticism from a number of national governments and international bodies, including the United Nations, the European Union and Russia, who comprise the Quartet of international mediators in Israeli-Palestinian peace talks.

The Quartet will convene in Moscow on March 19 for further deliberations, which are expected to touch upon the settlement controversy.

Meanwhile, Palestinians declared Tuesday a “day of rage” as dozens of Palestinian demonstrators clashed with Israeli police in East Jerusalem to protest Israel's consecration of an ancient synagogue in the city one day earlier, the temporary closure of the Temple Mount, the famous mosque located smack in the Old City of East Jerusalem that is considered to be one of the most sacred places for Muslims, and, of course, the ongoing Jewish settlement construction.

Palestinians hurled stones at police and erected burning barricades in several areas of East Jerusalem, which Israel captured along with the West Bank during the 1967 Six-Day War.
http://rt.com/Politics/2010-03-16/israel-palestinian-rage-washington.html

[Antifa94]

Obviously, what Israel is doing is despicable and wrong. But you shouldn't support something that is being promoted by Hamas, which is equally as abhorrent, if not more. If the protests/riots were spontaneous by disgruntled Palestinians, I would support it. However, the path to Palestinian does not lie through Hamas nor Fatah, simply the masses. A majority of Gazans detest Hamas, by the way.

[Antifa94]

Palestinian independence*

[IrishWorker]

Obviously, what Israel is doing is despicable and wrong. But you shouldn't support something that is being promoted by Hamas, which is equally as abhorrent, if not more. If the protests/riots were spontaneous by disgruntled Palestinians, I would support it. However, the path to Palestinian does not lie through Hamas nor Fatah, simply the masses. A majority of Gazans detest Hamas, by the way.

I never once said support Hamas I support the oppressed people of Palestine and the PFLP but if Hamas want to attack Israeli Imperialism I will not condemn them and neither should you.
They are oppressed workers fighting overwhelming odds.
If you lived in Gaza would you not do the same?

[IrishWorker]

Zionists are treating the people of Palestine the way the Nazis treated the European Jewish people during the holocaust.

[Antifa94]

Hamas are religious terrorists who have a shit cause, unlike the PLO. And other articles that I've read today state that Hamas called for this. Hamas really is the epitome of humanity, right? Using human shields, forcing people to allow them to build tunnels beneath their homes, shooting people up at marriages for singing, being dogmatic, launching attacks on civilian bases in Israel... the list goes on.

Israeli tactics in Gaza are revolting. However, I like the PLO and the leftist denominations therein because if they fight Imperialism they do it without purposefully attacking civilians. Hamas are scum.

[Red Commissar]

PLO and its dominant party, Fatah, are a much better group to back over Hamas, even though they only hold progressive views at best.

The issue comes over Fatah and the PLO in general reputation with some Palestinians. Hamas has become more popular than Fatah in some districts, notably the Gaza Strip. Though I'm not sure if there's much we can do in regards to that. The Palestinian people are desperate for change because the world has largely abandoned them over the past decade. What the next decade will hold, I'm not sure, but it seems the international community is getting sick of Israel's settlement policies, which is a start.

[~Spectre]

Netanyahu may have cost himself his job (damage already done though). He defied "the boss man called partner", and the U.S. historically does not take that sort of thing lightly. Netanyahu will probably find his government ousted by a more moderate coalition. The Israeli government, while habitually murderous, isn't stupid. They realize that they depend on U.S. military and economic aid or their game ends.

If another intifada breaks out though, things will obviously be really terrible regardless though. Israel will have another excuse to bludgeon the Palestinian population, which is obviously not conducive to peace.

The only "positive" is that there seems to be a building consensus now that Israel is a massive terrorist state. There is a growing disdain for the gangsters that run Israel, which could eventually provide beneficial pressure.

As for what will eventually cause a peace? I'd say eventually the U.S. will force Israel (and Israel will have no choice but to obey)

Once oil prices start to become more volatile, the U.S. will prioritize business and realize that it needs to pacify the Arabic populations around the oil spigot, more than it needs to have a rabid IDF attack dog teetering precariously on a leash.

[Tatarin]

I might be a little behind, but what do Israel really want with Palestine? I mean, sure, they want more, every country do, but Israel has always been pointed out as a pick in the world, and even now John Biden criticized Israel about the new colonies it is building. I mean, what's the big need? Do Palestine have that much of recourses for the Israelites to wage war against them during all this time? Why don't they just accept a common border and leave it at that?

[bloodbeard]

I might be a little behind, but what do Israel really want with Palestine? I mean, sure, they want more, every country do, but Israel has always been pointed out as a pick in the world, and even now John Biden criticized Israel about the new colonies it is building. I mean, what's the big need? Do Palestine have that much of recourses for the Israelites to wage war against them during all this time? Why don't they just accept a common border and leave it at that?

According to zionists on the interwebz, their safety is of utmost importance to them, they fear for their "jewish" (translation: zionist) safety in the middle east surrounded by arab countries since they are a newly created very small "country", (bullsh*t, it is an illegal occupier state), memories of the holocaust (in the middle east? really?), holy scriptures that force them to believe that the land is promised by God for the jews. (blah blah blah), and they are fighting for something "symbolic and spiritual", not just land (ickk better stop before I lose my lunch)

...Who knows what their real intentions are, even the israelis themselves are brainwashed by zio-nazi propaganda and agenda.

Examples of what happens to those show dissent with israel's zionist agenda.

....oopz not able to post links. Oh well....

anyway

"EVERY "JERUSALEM Day"--the day Israel celebrates its military conquest of the city--Rami has stood in the street with a photograph of Smadar(his daughter who was killed by a suicide bomber) and crossed Israeli and Palestinian flags, and people spit at him and tell him it was a pity he was not blown up, too."

Excerpt from The real heros of israel, taken from socialistworker

dot

org


The deputy head of mossad's daughter was thrown in jail twice for refusing to serve her military service:

Search Omer Goldman on youtube.


Does it matter their real intentions? It's gotten quite out of hand and they must be stopped. With everything that has happened, most likely zionists now simply see the palestinians as the enemy that must killed off at all costs.

[manic expression]

However, the path to Palestinian does not lie through Hamas nor Fatah, simply the masses. A majority of Gazans detest Hamas, by the way.
First, saying "simply the masses" means little. Revolutionary change comes through organization, one way or the other. Second, how do you figure a majority of Gazans detest Hamas? How do you explain the overwhelming vote for Hamas in 2006?

[Antifa94]

It is unfortunate, whilst the israeli government is composed of crypto-fascists and militarists, the vast majority of Israeli people( and proletarians,not the businessmen eager to construct new settlements) do not support the imperialist and militaristic actions of the government. I've been to Israel thrice, it is a beautiful country with very nice, intelligent people. The youth are avant-gard and don't support blatantly fascistic actions taken by the Israeli government. If only the government represented the people.

[Devrim]

Obviously, what Israel is doing is despicable and wrong. But you shouldn't support something that is being promoted by Hamas, which is equally as abhorrent, if not more. If the protests/riots were spontaneous by disgruntled Palestinians, I would support it. However, the path to Palestinian does not lie through Hamas nor Fatah, simply the masses. A majority of Gazans detest Hamas, by the way.

HAMAS is a nationalist anti-working class organisation. I can't imagine why it is more abhorrent than the state of Israel though. Every atrocity committed by HAMAS is matched ten-fold by the Israeli state.


the vast majority of Israeli people( and proletarians,not the businessmen eager to construct new settlements) do not support the imperialist and militaristic actions of the government. I've been to Israel thrice, it is a beautiful country with very nice, intelligent people. The youth are avant-gard and don't support blatantly fascistic actions taken by the Israeli government. If only the government represented the people.

One could say this about any country. The UK government didn't have majority support for its war in Iraq.

On your characterisations of Israel of Israeli society though, I beg to differ. I worked in Tel Aviv in construction for nearly a year about ten years ago. My impression was that Israelis are very tied to the state, and whilst people may be shocked by its more blatant murders, there is no questioning of the general policy. I also found it a shockingly racist country, even people who said they were left-wing were really abusive about Arabs.

Devrim

[Yehuda Stern]

Just as this is happening, police chief David Cohen shows that the Zionists are taking the "three wise monkeys" approach to the situation (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArtStEng.jhtml?itemNo=1156775&contrassID=1&subContrassID=1&title=%27Police%20chief:%20Jerusalem%20violence%20 won%27t%20spark%20third%20intifada%27&dyn_server=172.20.5.5).
A third Intifadah is inevitable. The masses have been failed by all mass organizations, which claimed to be fighting for their rights but have shown that they are willing to sell them out to imperialism time and time again.

Oh, and anyone who actually prefers the openly collaborationist PLO to Hamas, which only has such ambitions, is certainly not a pro-Palestinian.


Every atrocity committed by HAMAS is matched ten-fold by the Israeli state.I'm glad to hear that coming from you. Obviously it is correct.


My impression was that Israelis are very tied to the state, and whilst people may be shocked by its more blatant murders, there is no questioning of the general policy. I also found it a shockingly racist country, even people who said they were left-wing were really abusive about Arabs.Your impression is entirely correct. If anything, things have only become worse since then. We are, after all, talking about a country where over half the population supports the encouraging of transfer, and 46% support a consistent policy of transfer, of Israeli Arabs and Palestinians. (http://www.haaretz.co.il/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=140196&contrassID=2&subContrassID=1&sbSubContrassID=0)

Ignorant, racist attitudes like Antifa94's are very common on the pro-Zionist left, which never ceases to amaze me with its baseless fantasies regarding Israelis' attitude towards their government.

[danyboy27]

how both side tolerate that much atrocities death and suffering is just beyond my comprehension.

[Devrim]

I'm glad to hear that coming from you. Obviously it is correct.

Actually I quite taken offence to the idea that we in some way support Israel, or are soft on it. Just because the people that we argue with on here are often pro-Palestinian nationalism, does not mean that we in anyway apologise for the Israeli state, or its barbarism.

To give a sample of our writing on the situation in Palestine, I link to the last two articles in our paper at the time of the last war in Gaza:

Massacre in Gaza; Nationalism and Class struggle (Turkish paper's editorial)

Turkish: http://tr.internationalism.org/dd/2009/4/gazze
English: http://en.internationalism.org/icconline/2009/04/gaza-and-the-national-question (English version has a different title)

Gaza: Solidarity with the victims of war means class struggle against all exploiters! (The statement of our current internationally):

Turkish: http://tr.internationalism.org/dd/2009/4/gazze2
English: http://en.internationalism.org/node/2731

Take a look through them. I don't think you will find anything but condemnation of the Israeli state.

Devrim

[Yehuda Stern]

I don't think that the ICC is pro-Israeli. I just think a lot of the time you seem to deny that Israeli is clearly the bigger scoundrel when it comes to conflicts between it and Hamas or Fatah, and I was glad to see you arguing differently.

[Antifa94]

Thanks for calling me ignorant and racist, dear, when I am in fact neither of those two traits. Also, I am not pro-zionist. I have been to Israel thrice. No, I can not make a general statement concerning the ideologies of the Israeli people, but those that I have spoken to in cosmopolitan areas tend to be anti-establishment. Yehuda, explain how my statements contained even a modicum of racism?

Just because one wants the independence of an oppressed nation like Palestine does not mean that one supports all the facets of the independence movement. Say there was a Neo-nazi party in Gaza that allowed Gaza to gain independence. No one in their right minds would support that state.

[bloodbeard]

Just because one wants the independence of an oppressed nation like Palestine does not mean that one supports all the facets of the independence movement. Say there was a Neo-nazi party in Gaza that allowed Gaza to gain independence. No one in their right minds would support that state.

Oh wake up, zionists are the new neo nazis!!!!

I know it was only meant to be hypothetical but let me point it out to you anyway that in any case, it's impossible that neo nazis would ever want to help the palestinians in fighting for freedom from oppression seeing as a nazi by definition would have strong hatred for and discriminate against arabs.

BUT!! Let's say, in the unlikely situation, Neo nazis' strong objective was to help the palestinian cause, and to fight and die for Palestinians, those arabs in the middle east, as if they were their own flesh and blood, they deserve recognition and our support!

Labels wouldn't mean a thing, their actions would speak for themselves.

WHOEVER is showing the strongest resistance against the genocidal apartheid state of israel deserve your support, if you claim to be a true anti-imperialist.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

I don't think we are going to resolve the Middle East situation, whether you like it or not, by saying 'the Israeli's are 10x or 11x worse than Hamas'. I don't think that is a debate worth having, they (the Zionist establishment in Israel and Hamas) are both unhelpful to the cause of working people in Israel, Gaza etc., and will never, ever deliver anything that contains even a semblance of Socialism. Thus, it really does not matter to what degree one is worse than the other.

Having said that, a third intifada would be welcomed, if genuinely supported by, and participated in by, the masses of Palestinian people. If it's a small PR-orientated event organised by those upon-high from the PLO then forget it, it won't achieve anything. The Zionists and the Islamic extremists need to see the anger of the people, not some organised PR-event.

[bloodbeard]

Anyway!!

@Antifa94

Hamas may be "scum" but zionists are inhumane killers. Zio scums are performing a systematic genocide against Palestinians. Hamas are made up of palestinians who are defending their families and their land.
Do you not know what resistance is?
Israel is the real terrorist in this situation.
Were there any resistance before the creation of Israel? were there any suicide bombings before the creation of israel??????
No occupation = no resistance.

Seriously you call yourself a revolutionary?

[bloodbeard]

I don't think we are going to resolve the Middle East situation, whether you like it or not, by saying 'the Israeli's are 10x or 11x worse than Hamas'. I don't think that is a debate worth having, they (the Zionist establishment in Israel and Hamas) are both unhelpful to the cause of working people in Israel, Gaza etc., and will never, ever deliver anything that contains even a semblance of Socialism. Thus, it really does not matter to what degree one is worse than the other.

Having said that, a third intifada would be welcomed, if genuinely supported by, and participated in by, the masses of Palestinian people. If it's a small PR-orientated event organised by those upon-high from the PLO then forget it, it won't achieve anything. The Zionists and the Islamic extremists need to see the anger of the people, not some organised PR-event.


Forgive me but socialism will have to wait, what we need to focus on is to end imperialism first ! And bring down the world's only remaining apartheid regime. I don't see how this would be against leftist's agenda. We must offer our support. There are innocent human lives at stake.

[Yehuda Stern]

Antifa - I called you ignorant because you made ridiculous, fallacious claims about the situation in Israel, which shows that you really know nothing about it. Also, one can see your ignorance in the claim that only Hamas attacks civilians, when clearly that's not the case. I called you racist because your comments show a bias towards Israel, baseless as they are.

Red Roses - the attitude that "socialism must wait until after liberation" is exactly the reason why the national liberation movements in the Middle East and elsewhere have been going nowhere for decades.

[Steve_j]

Oh wake up, zionists are the new neo nazis!!!!

I dont think that kind of language is either appropriate or helpful.


WHOEVER is showing the strongest resistance against the genocidal apartheid state of israel deserve your support, if you claim to be a true anti-imperialist.

So whom ever show the stronget resistance against American and British imperialism deserves our support? i.e. Al Qaeda. I dont think so.

[bloodbeard]

Red Roses - the attitude that "socialism must wait until after liberation" is exactly the reason why the national liberation movements in the Middle East and elsewhere have been going nowhere for decades.

No, I disagree. I think it's more the belief of those nations that socialism or any other leftist ideologies cannot work in practice! I think it's safe to say the world still see communism as being some kind of evil. You are talking as if the majority of the world share the sentiments that we here on revleft have. I'm not saying I oppose socialism at all, no way, or any other leftist ideology for that matter. Otherwise I wouldn't be on this board willing to learn...share ideas...talk...and so on.

[bloodbeard]

So whom ever show the stronget resistance against American and British imperialism deserves our support? i.e. Al Qaeda. I dont think so.

Al qaeda that's funded by cia? no i don't think so either. :rolleyes:

[Steve_j]

Al qaeda that's funded by cia? no i don't think so either. :rolleyes:

And there is lots of reports indicating that Israel funded Hamas to break the dominace of power held by Fatah. So whats your point?

[bloodbeard]

Because it's not really the same thing? You are comparing apples and oranges. Seriously, you live in a place where there are no bombings, white phosphorus sprayings, no bulldozers coming to your home to demolish it and no soldiers shooting your kids point blank in the head, and you can oppose western imperialism comfortably by not showing support for Al Qaeda or any other organization like that, which is great, which is how it should be, your safety is not at stake. Gazans do not have such choices, they support hamas because hamas is(was) the resistance , whether it was created by Israel or not, who really knows but fact of the matter is that Palestinians supported them. If you cannot be there to fight for them in place of hamas, at least you could show solidarity with them (the palestinians). I'm not a supporter of hamas by any means but even if israel did create Hamas, it is a double edged sword for the zionists. Israel may have used hamas as a reason to keep killing palestinians and steal more lands to build more settlements but their atrocities over the years did not go unnoticed even with their lobbies and their influence on the US. Their war crimes and brutality are becoming exposed to the international community at large, to the masses.

As citizens of the world, instead of condemning whoever is the resistance of the zionists, we should be protesting, boycotting, showing strong and complete opposition to zionism and showing solidarity with the oppressed Palestinians. We must stop falling in to the trap of believing the capitalist media propaganda of hamas being as dangerous as Israel, jews vs. muslims, etc etc and so on. If you spend more time on condemning your enemy's enemy rather than working to fight imperialism, you should be questioning which side you are really on. Because you are completely missing the point.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Forgive me but socialism will have to wait, what we need to focus on is to end imperialism first ! And bring down the world's only remaining apartheid regime. I don't see how this would be against leftist's agenda. We must offer our support. There are innocent human lives at stake.

How long will Socialism have to wait?

It's been 60 years and your argument hasn't been proved correct yet, in terms of ending imperialism in the Middle East. Indeed you are far away from it.

Meanwhile, the reality on the ground is that Gazans, Israeli Arabs etc. are living either in squalor and destitude, or in a country that treats them as second class citizens, with limited freedoms and rights. I'd rather focus on alleviating their human suffering and finding a system that will do such, rather than putting all my efforts into what is seemingly a losing strategy.

[Steve_j]

Your missing my point, i will try point it out in this part.


As citizens of the world, instead of condemning whoever is the resistance of the zionists,we should be protesting, boycotting, showing strong and complete opposition to zionism and showing solidarity with the oppressed Palestinians.

I wasnt condeming Hamas, infact i didnt even critcise them (although i do have lots) but i dont understand why i cannot support and show solidarity with the Palestinians without supporting Hamas or whoever else is "showing the strongest resistance against the genocidal apartheid state of israel"

The enemy of my enemy is not my friend and does not deserve my support because we share an enemy.


We must stop falling in to the trap of believing the capitalist media propaganda of hamas being as dangerous as Israel, jews vs. muslims, etc etc and so on. I dont, but what the fuck? You are supporting an organisation that wants to implement a theological state. What then? Lets say you win, where do you go from there?


If you spend more time on condemning your enemy's enemy rather than working to fight imperialism, you should be questioning which side you are really on. I condem both, i spend much more time and enegry activly condeming the state of Israel, but i condem both. I know which side im on, do you?

[bloodbeard]

How long will Socialism have to wait?

It's been 60 years and your argument hasn't been proved correct yet, in terms of ending imperialism in the Middle East. Indeed you are far away from it.

Meanwhile, the reality on the ground is that Gazans, Israeli Arabs etc. are living either in squalor and destitude, or in a country that treats them as second class citizens, with limited freedoms and rights. I'd rather focus on alleviating their human suffering and finding a system that will do such, rather than putting all my efforts into what is seemingly a losing strategy.

What's the losing strategy? Resisting imperialism?

And how long do we have to wait for socialism in the middle east? By all means if you have a plan that can make it happen in less 60 years, do carry on putting all your efforts in to that. Can you tell me what you are doing exactly? I hope it's more than waiting around to see when the workers in Israel and the Arab countries will wake themselves up.

Couldn't resist the sarcasm at the end. My bad.


@Steve_j

"The enemy of my enemy is not my friend and does not deserve my support because we share an enemy."

I've seen this line about a 100x times on here. Does repeating this actually get you anywhere ?


And what do you mean if I win? Do i represent hamas? After Palestinian liberation, where do you go from there? It would depend on who helped them get there. It's probably safe to assume that it's not going to be the likes of you.

[Antifa94]

Wake up? sorry for having an alternative Ideology.

"BUT!! Let's say, in the unlikely situation, Neo nazis' strong objective was to help the palestinian cause, and to fight and die for Palestinians, those arabs in the middle east, as if they were their own flesh and blood, they deserve recognition and our support!"

A true leftist will never support Neo-Nazis.
Israel may be an apartheid state, but it is NOT genocidal. It is not engaging in the systematic, complete and utter destruction of Palestinians. Whilst many members of the IDF wear those horrific shirts with images such as a gun pointing a pregnant woman's belly and the caption " Two birds one stone" I don't see it being an official gubernatorial policy. Yes, They are in a ghetto. Yes, they are oppressed terribly and are de facto and de juro second class citizens. But I honestly believe that Cast Lead occurred in order to stop Hamas. The IDF of course abused this goal to kill innocent civilians.

[vyborg]

The only way out from the horror they live in for palestinians is freeing themselves from the useless leaders they have now. PLO and Hamas are both anti-workers, reactionary gangs. They will not win IDF in centuries with their methods.
As long as they retain the leadership of palestinian people, palestinians are doomed

[Yehuda Stern]

Red Roses, back in the day groups that claimed to be socialist, Marxist even, like the Palestinian CP, the PFLP, the DFLP, etc. were very strong. Even Fatah used some socialist rhetoric from time to time. The problem was that these groups argued, like you, that socialism had to wait for liberation, and that is what brought their demise and the many defeats suffered since.

Antifa, you're making no sense. Israel is not genocidal; Cast Lead was meant to "stop Hamas" (doing what, exactly? Presiding over a democratically elected government?); But for some reason, the IDF just happens to "abuse" its chances to kill civilians. Its soldiers just "happen" to joke about murdering pregnant women. It just happens to put Palestinians in a ghetto.
Please.

[zimmerwald1915]

I don't think that the ICC is pro-Israeli. I just think a lot of the time you seem to deny that Israeli is clearly the bigger scoundrel when it comes to conflicts between it and Hamas or Fatah, and I was glad to see you arguing differently.
Oh, it is. That fact, and it is a fact, just isn't terribly important when the liberation of the proletariat requires the discreditation of all scoundrels, as opposed to illusions in one or another.

*returns to lurking*

[Wanted Man]

Israel may be an apartheid state, but it is NOT genocidal. It is not engaging in the systematic, complete and utter destruction of Palestinians. Whilst many members of the IDF wear those horrific shirts with images such as a gun pointing a pregnant woman's belly and the caption " Two birds one stone" I don't see it being an official gubernatorial policy. Yes, They are in a ghetto. Yes, they are oppressed terribly and are de facto and de juro second class citizens. But I honestly believe that Cast Lead occurred in order to stop Hamas. The IDF of course abused this goal to kill innocent civilians.

Ah, this is an interesting variation: "good politicians, bad soldiers". It's usually the other way around, as in "those poor prole IDF soldiers are just being abused by nasty politicians :crying:".

[Antifa94]

Nowhere did I support the Israeli government. I am not using the vastly over simplistic argument "Good politicians, bad soldiers". I stated that the extermination of Palestinians is not an official gubernatorial policy, even though their current policies are blatantly apartheid-esque, imperialist, and martial.

Yehuda, How about to stop the constant barrage of missiles on Sderot?
Also, I didn't state that it just "so happens" to be that these things occur. Sure, there might be a promulgation of anti-palestinian ideologies, but there is no current genocide of Palestinians. When Israel starts to systematically obliterate all citizens of Gaza town by town, street by street, or drops bombs daily, or teaches school children that Palestinians are subhuman and evil, THEN it will be explicit that genocide is occurring. Right now, it's like Post Nuremburg Pre- Wannsee Germany for the Palestinians.

[Steve_j]

but there is no current genocide of Palestinians.

Genocide as found in the 1948 UN convention on the prevention and punishment of the crimes of genocide.

Looking at this i would say there is substance to the claim.

Unted Nations Convention on the Prevention and
Punishment of Genocide

Article II: In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
(a) Killing members of the group;

(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;

(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;

(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;

(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

[Antifa94]

According to A), All Modern warfare would constitute genocide.

Alright, maybe according to the UN it is genocidal, but there is much ambiguity to what genocide means.

Some state that it is the concerted effort to bring about the destruction of a people, through increments, not simply killing them. I do not believe that Israel aims to have the Palestinian people destroyed.

[freepalestine]

47 Residents Wounded In Hebron

http://www.imemc.org/graphics/date.gif Saturday March 20, 2010 10:33http://www.imemc.org/graphics/person.gif by Saed Bannoura - IMEMC & Agencies


Palestinian medical sources in the southern West Bank city of Hebron reported Friday evening that 47 residents were wounded during clashes with Israeli soldiers in the city and the nearby Beit Ummar town. http://www.imemc.org/cache/imagecache/local/attachments/mar2010/280_0___10000000_0_0_0_0_0_soldiersgasbombs.jpg (http://www.imemc.org/attachments/mar2010/soldiersgasbombs.jpg)
File - Soldiers firing at protestors in Hebron - paldf.net

21 residents received treatment after inhaling Gaza fired at them in Hebron, and nine others were wounded by rubber-coated bullets. The clashes took place near the Ibrahim Mosque.

Similar clashes took place in Al Zahed area in the city while the army fired gas bombs and rubber-coated bullets.

Sources at the Red Crescent in the Hebron reported that some of the wounded residents were moved to the local governmental hospital, and the Muhammad Al Muhtasib Hospital, while the rest received treatment by field medics.

The sources added that the army fired a gas bombs at one of the ambulances while transporting some wounded residents. The gas bombs hit the windshield of the ambulance and shattered it.

Soldiers also occupied rooftops of several homes and used them as military posts and monitoring towers.

Twenty residents received treatment after inhaling gas fired by the army while six others were wounded by rubber-coated bullets in Beit Ummar town.

Several youths hurled stones at settler vehicles causing damage to three cars; the army invaded the town and prevented local ambulances from reaching the wounded residents.

Israeli military forces attack protests in Hebron with tear gas, concussion grenades

Saturday March 20, 2010 08:49 by Saed Bannoura - IMEMC News

In the latest in a series of protests across the West Bank, Palestinian youth in the southern West Bank city of Hebron threw stones at Israeli soldiers Friday, while the soldiers fired rubber-coated steel bullets, tear gas and concussion grenades at the youth from inside their armored vehicles.

The protests in Hebron coincide with non-violent demonstrations on Friday challenging the Israeli government's approval of a plan to construct 1,600 new Jewish-only housing units on illegally-seized Palestinian land in East Jerusalem.

One Al Jazeera reporter in Hebron reported that "The amount of tear gas used in the city is just quite unbelievable”, adding that several Palestinian youth had been injured.

The clashes in Hebron come in the midst of increased Israeli settler violence in recent months, including the shooting and beating of Palestinian civilians in the Old City of Hebron and nearby neighborhoods.

The city of Hebron is well-known throughout the West Bank for being home to the most violent and extreme Israeli settlers, many of whom openly celebrate and admire Baruch Goldstein, who was responsible for gunning down 27 Palestinian civilians who were praying in a mosque in 1994.

500 Israeli settlers live in illegally-seized Palestinian land in Hebron, and the Israeli government has deployed several thousand troops to the city to protect the settlers as they attack the indigenous Palestinian population with impunity.
http://www.imemc.org/graphics/star.gif hebron (http://www.imemc.org/index.php?obj_id=2126&region=hebron) | israeli attacks (http://www.imemc.org/index.php?obj_id=2126&topic=israeliattacks) | news report (http://www.imemc.org/index.php?obj_id=2126&type=newsreport) http://www.imemc.org/graphics/email.gif saed at imemc dot org

[freepalestine]

Israeli fire kills Palestinian boy
Published today (updated) 20/03/2010 21:49
http://www.maannews.net/eng/images/ViewDetails/Eng-1.jpg http://www.maannews.net/eng/images/ViewDetails/Eng+1.jpg





Medics rushing to transfer Muhammad Qadus to hospital, after he was fatally shot
south of Nablus on 20 March 2010. [MaanImages]

Bethlehem - Ma'an - Israeli forces killed a Palestinian teenager in the northern West Bank on Saturday afternoon, medics said.

Medics said Muhammad Qadus, 16, was struck in the chest by a live bullet fired by Israeli forces amid violent clashes in Iraq Burin, a Palestinian village south of Nablus.

Qadus was transported to a local hospital by private car after Israeli forces held up a Red Crescent ambulance called to the scene, medics told Ma'an. The teenager was pronounced dead shortly after arriving, they added.

Another 16-year-old Palestinian boy, identified as Useid Abed An-Nasser Qadus, was seriously injured. Medics said he sustained a live bullet to the stomach and was transferred to a hospital for emergency surgery.

An Israeli military spokesman said "during a violent and illegal riot, dozens of Palestinians from Iraq Burin arrived in the area, inciting a provocation." According to the army, Israeli forces arrived at the scene to prevent clashes between Palestinians and Israeli civilians. Palestinians "violently hurled rocks at the force."

Soldiers responded with riot-dispersal means, which included the use of rubber bullets "in accordance with procedures, and identified hitting two Palestinians."

"Contrary to what was published, live fire was not used. The Palestinians were hurt by rubber bullets used during the incident. It should be noted that gas canisters were used prior to rubber bullets. Israeli officials have recently held extensive negotiations with figures from the area in order to prevent such a clash. The IDF will not allow the existence of violent and illegal riots that put human lives at risk."

The spokesman added: "the commander of the Shomron regional brigade, Itzik Bar, will investigate the event later today."

Participants in the protest disputed the army's version of events.

Qadus "was shot in the back, indicating he could not have been posing any threat to the soldiers who shot him," read a statement from the Popular Struggle Coordination Committee.

The committee said at least 15 international activists were attending a demonstration that involved an attempt to reach privately owned Palestinian land under the Jewish-only settlement.

"After about two hours, the Army retreated towards the settlement and demonstrators went back to the village," the statement said. "Shortly after, armored Border Police jeeps invaded the village, arrested three people and raided houses."

A few minutes later, live shots were fired at a small group of young men, some of whom were throwing stones, the committee added. "The shots resulted in one fatality and one critical injury to the head."

Ghassan Daghlas, a Palestinian Authority official who monitors settlement activity in the northern West Bank, said Israeli forces fired indiscriminately.

"Soldiers invaded this village of 1,100 people and started shooting randomly at civilians who were trying to defend their property against Israeli settlers, most from Yitzhar," Daghlas told Ma'an.

The PA official added that over 15 Israeli settlers from the illegal Bracha settlement, wearing white, descended upon the adjacent Burin village, but residents forced them out.

[freepalestine]

Gaza gov't: 250 detained during Al-Aqsa protests
Published today (updated) 20/03/2010 18:34
http://www.maannews.net/eng/images/ViewDetails/Eng-1.jpg http://www.maannews.net/eng/images/ViewDetails/Eng+1.jpg





An Israeli soldier takes position during clashes in the West Bank village of Beita,
south of Nablus, on 17 March 2010. [MaanImages/Rami Swidan]

Gaza – Ma'an – Israeli forces detained over 250 Palestinians during last week's clashes in East Jerusalem, the de facto Ministry of Detainees and Ex-detainees Affairs reported Saturday.

The ministry said more than 30 minors under the age of 14 were detained, as well as a number of journalists who were covering the protests, which came after Israel finished renovating the Hurva synagogue in the Old City's Jewish quarter. The move was seen as provocative because Palestinians do not have similar rights over their own holy sites.

In a statement, the Hamas-run ministry reported that most of the Palestinian detainees were from the Al-Isawiya, Wadi Al-Joz, and As-Suwwana neighborhoods of Jerusalem. These areas witnessed fierce confrontations between Israeli forces and Palestinian youths.

Detainees were taken to the Russian Compound detention center in Jerusalem, the ministry said. Some were released on bail while several others remained in custody. Released detainees said they were handcuffed, beaten, and insulted while in detention.

The ministry added that some residents of Jerusalem were sent to house arrest, and that an Israeli court ruled that 15 detainees would be banned from accessing the Old City for 15 days.

According to the ministry, Israel used undercover units to detain many of the protesters. Police disguised themselves as Arabs and joined protesters throwing stones at Israeli forces, before suddenly detaining them. Cameras were also used to identify demonstrators, the ministry said.

[freepalestine]

Clashes across Jerusalem as court evicts 15
Published yesterday (updated) 20/03/2010 15:29
http://www.maannews.net/eng/images/ViewDetails/Eng-1.jpg http://www.maannews.net/eng/images/ViewDetails/Eng+1.jpg


Israeli soldiers scuffle with residents of the Shu`fat refugee camp near the
military checkpoint restricting entrance to Jerusalem. Border police faced
demonstrators protesting the beating of camp residents on 5 May 2006
[MaanImages/Inbal Rose]

Jerusalem – Ma'an – Hundreds of young Palestinian men clashed with Israeli border police in the Shu’fat refugee camp north of Jerusalem on Friday, witnesses said.

"At least 15 boys were beaten and detained when they took shelter in an empty building 100 meters away from the military checkpoint" at the entrance of the camp, one witnesses said.

"Israeli soldiers disguised as Arabs and an under-cover unit that surrounded them inside the building," the witness, who preferred not to be named, added. "When they were forced out they had blood on their faces."

Rubber-coated bullets and tear-gas were used against the group, and ambulances were unable to access the injured, locals said, with traffic being turned around as far away as the A’nata and As-Salam neighborhoods.

Violence erupted when camp residents concluded Friday prayers and gathered at the military checkpoint at one entrance, throwing stones at the structure, witnesses said, noting large numbers of forces were summoned to the camp, blocking the entrance.

Clashes spread as witnesses reported at least one Molotov cocktail thrown in the street at Sultan Suleiman, where an Israeli patrol car was policing the area. No injuries were reported among the soldiers.

The East Jerusalem neighborhoods of Wadi Al-Joz , Ras Al-A’mud, the Qalandiaya refugee camp and Al-Eisawieyah saw stone throwers met with tear-gas and rubber-coated bullets, with several injuries reported in Qalandiya.

Sheikh Jarrah

Hundreds of Israeli and international peace activists gathered in the East Jerusalem neighborhood of Sheikh Jarrah, in an effort to show solidarity with residents of the area, many of whom were threatened with home demolitions and eviction orders.

Israeli police forces blocked the entrances of the neighborhood, preventing many of activists from reaching the Al-Kurd and Al-Ghwar homes, occupied by Israeli settlers.

Six Jerusalemites were ordered evicted from their Bab Huta and Al-Wad neighborhood homes in the Old City on Friday, a report said, following their arrest on Thursday.

Mousa Ghousha, 22, his brother Ibrahim, 21, A’hed Ar-Resheq, 22, Mohammad A’seela, 17, and Abed Ar-Ramlawi,18, from Al-Wad and Rami Al-Fakhuri,18, from Bab Huta, were identified as the young men subjected to the eviction order.

Another fifteen may also be subject to eviction, a court document said.

Israeli police and border guard officials were unavailable for comment

[freepalestine]

PFLP: Meet occupation's settlement crimes in Jerusalem with popular revolt

http://www.pflp.ps/english/files/images/ourbloodjerusalem.jpg (http://www.pflp.ps/english/?q=node/2216)
Click here for French translation (http://www.pflp.ps/english/?q=le-fplp-repondre-aux-crimes-des-implantations-de-l)
Click here for German translation (http://www.pflp.ps/english/?q=pflp-begegnet-dem-siedlungsverbrechen-der-besatzun)
The Popular Front for the Liberaion of Palestine called on March 16, 2010 to confront the occupation's campaign of settlement and Judaization of Jerusalem with a popular uprising that can pave the way for an alternative strategy and a unified national leadership. Only a mass popular mobilization can fully meet the challenges imposed by the occupation's aggressive expansionist offensive against the land, people and holy sites of Palestine!

A statement released by the Front called upon the Palestinian people in the cities, villages and camps to unite and stand together in the face of settler and army attacks, to defend our land and people and protect the crops, land and water and guard our people and their institutions. The Front called upon the Palestinian people in exile and the Arab and Muslim masses to organize in support of our people and build the widest possible participation, solidarity and unity for the struggle to protect Jerusalem and its holy sites, a fundamental component of our struggle for liberation, self-determination, independence and return.

The Front further declared that the occupier's actions in Jerusalem are war crimes, attempts to change the demographic character of the city and remove its Arab and Muslim character, in flagrant defiance of all international law and resolutions and the Fourth Geneva Convention. It called upon all international bodies, particularly the Arab League and the United Nations, to end their silence and complicity with occupation crimes and take responsibility to stop these crimes and hold the occupation accountable for its crimes.

Comrade Dr. Rabah Muhanna, member of the Political Bureau of the PFLP and its leader in Gaza, spoke on March 15, 2010 at a conference "Support Jerusalem," held in Rashad Shawa hall in Gaza in response to the occupation crimes in Jerusalem, calling for strengthening all forms of resistance, particularly armed resistance.

Commenting on the occupation's goals, Comrade Muhanna noted that ending the resistance has always been a major goal of the occupation, and that one of the most important objectives of the entire Oslo 'peace process' for the occupier was to end the resistance. He emphasized that the reality is that the resistance has always raised the world's attention to our people and that it is imperative to not only adhere to the option of the resistance, but to strengthen the resistance, protect the resistance and provide all of the factors to successfully unify and activate the resistance in the face of the fascist occupier.

Comrade Muhanna demanded that any and all "negotiations," formal or informal, end immediately, as they can only harm our national cause, and emphasized instead that national unity among Palestinians is most important.

He said that the Palestinian cause is facing a threat, and called upon all of our people and the Arab and Muslim world to rally to protect our cause and constants, emphasizing that unity is essential to confront our enemy - the Zionist occupation and its ally, the globalized international system of U.S. imperialist hegemony.

He expressed his certainty that Jerusalem and all of Palestine will be liberated and that the Zionist project will inevitably be fundamentally defeated.

[freepalestine]

Nablus: 4 dead in 24 hoursPublished today (updated) 21/03/2010 20:12 Bethlehem - Ma'an - Israeli soldiers shot dead two Palestinians near Nablus in the northern West Bank on Sunday. Palestinian security sources identified the victims as 19-year-old farmers Muhammad Faysal and Salah Muhammad Qawariq.Both were from the Awarta village, southeast of Nablus, and were en route to farmland carrying agricultural tools and herbicide, the same sources said. Israel's army said the two attempted to stab a soldier who was on a "routine patrol" near the Awarta military checkpoint. "In response, forces opened fire and identified a direct hit," an army spokeswoman told Ma'an. Eyewitnesses said Israeli forces declared the area a "closed military zone" and deployed in neighboring Palestinian villages. Soldiers closed the main entrance to the village of Madama, south of Nablus, they said. Red Crescent officials told Ma'an that the army informed them that two Palestinians were killed near the illegal Itamar settlement southeast of Nablus, asking them to come and evacuate the victims.They were the third and fourth killed in 24 hours in the northern West Bank. A teenager died early Sunday from injuries sustained at a protest a day earlier, when another boy was shot dead. Useid Qadus, 16, was shot in the head by Israeli forces, medics said, and Muhammad Qadus, also 16, died of a wound to the chest shortly after the a protest in Iraq Burin, another village south of Nablus.The Israeli military said its forces opened fire with riot-control means to disperse a violent riot, denying allegations its soldiers used live ammunition against the two teenagers. Medical officials and human rights advocates have disputed the army's version of events, pointing to photographic evidence and an X-ray they say proves the army used live fire. -maannews website

[freepalestine]

israelArmy explanation 'simply impossible'
Published today (updated) 21/03/2010 13:49

http://www.maannews.net/images/PhotoViewer/87862.jpg

In this photo released by the Popular Struggle Coordination Committee, an
X-ray of Useid Qadus`s head, taken by the Israeli human rights group
B`Tselem`s Nablus field worker, appears to show a live bullet lodged in his
skull, 20 March 2010. [MaanImages/Salma Ad-Deb`i, HO]

Bethlehem - Ma'an - Live ammunition killed two 16-year-old Palestinian boys in the northern West Bank over the weekend, despite the Israeli military's denials, medical officials and human rights advocates said Sunday.

Useid Qadus died of a gunshot wound to the head, medics at Nablus' Rafidiya Hospital told Ma'an, after a military incursion into his village as the army attempted to suppress a demonstration. Muhammad Qadus died of chest wounds sustained in the same incident.

According to eyewitnesses, Qadus was shot with live ammunition as soldiers invaded Iraq Burin, a village south of Nablus, after residents demonstrated to protest settler harassment and restrictions of access to their lands.

Israel's army has maintained that its forces used rubber-coated bullets to disperse a violent riot, following a Ma'an inquiry into allegations that both boys sustained injuries consistent with live ammunition.

"Contrary to what was published, live fire was not used. The Palestinians were hurt by rubber bullets used during the incident," an Israeli military spokesman told Ma'an on Saturday and reiterated on Sunday, citing an initial inquiry.

But medical findings appeared to corroborate testimony by witnesses, a senior Palestinian Authority official, and emergency responders that, regardless of the circumstances, rubber-coated bullets could not have caused the injuries in question.

An X-ray of Useid's head, taken as doctors in Nablus prepared for what would be a futile emergency surgery at Rafidiya Hospital, appears to show a live bullet lodged in his skull, rather than the roundish rubber-coated bullets used by the army.

"It's very clear this isn't a rubber bullet," said Jonathan Pollak, an Israeli rights advocate who co-founded Anarchists Against the Wall.

"The IDF uses two types of rubber bullets; one is shaped like a ball and the other is cylindrical," Pollak told Ma'an. "The object lodged in Useid's skull is shaped like a prism, pointed at the end. It's a bullet."

In any case, Pollak said postmortem photographs of Muhammad offered even more damning evidence of the use of live ammunition.

Pollak said the body had an entry wound in the chest and an exit wound in the back. Such an injury could not have possibly been caused by anything but live fire, he said.

"Less lethal ammunition, rubber-coated bullets included, can, under no circumstances, cause such injuries, even if shot from point blank," he said. "No rubber bullet in the world would move through a 16-year-old's torso like that."

The Israeli human rights group B'Tselem, which first obtained the X-ray late Saturday night, concurred.

"Rubber-coated steel bullets will not enter and exit the body in that way. It's very clear these injuries would not have been caused by any kind of crowd-control measure," said B'Tselem spokeswoman Sarit Michaeli.

"The army's explanation is simply impossible and not consistent with the evidence," Michaeli told Ma'an.

B'Tselem plans to issue a formal request that the army's military advocate general conduct a criminal investigation into the incident, both the alleged use of live fire and the apparent distribution of false information to the relevant investigative bodies.

For its part, the Israeli military has vowed to open an internal investigation. The commander of the Shomron regional brigade, Itzik Yar, will head the effort, an army spokesman said.

In the meantime, the military is sticking to its original explanation.

"IDF soldiers arrived at the scene to prevent a clash between the Palestinian rioters and Jewish civilians, and were violently attacked by the the Palestinians, who violently hurled rocks at the force," the spokesman said.

"Soldiers responded with riot-dispersal means, which included the use of rubber bullets in accordance with procedures," he added. "It should be noted that gas canisters were used prior to rubber bullets."