Social mobility

[Leaf]

Hi.

Today my friend said she didn't give money to a homeless man because she doesn't want to encourage beggers. Also, that in a country like Australia, anyone can pull themselves out of poverty blah blah blah. 'Everything's a choice, whether people realise it or not.'

I obviously find these sentiments senseless, outrageous, insulting etc

My retorts include:

- giving money doesnt encourage/cause begging/homelesness. if beggars get no money they arent going to jump up and get jobs and become rich. they arent bludgers. homelessness is obviously an undesirable state.

- not everyone is on a equal footing from the beggining - being black, female, poor etc makes you less likely to become well educated/well off/ some other measure of success. Thus there is a glass ceiling which hinders these minorities from 'succeeding'.

- Hard work does not = wealth...but this doesn't seem to exactly disprove the idea that homeless people can get out.

- Asking her why she thinks the man was homeless..? if anyone can succeed why would he choose to be homeless? No one would, his situation is likely due to circumstances outside his control.

- Everything is obviously not a choice! Women don't choose to get raped, people don't choose to be born black and discriminated against. Sure we can choose how to act in our environment but so much is out of our control! If we don't sell our labour, we starve, etc etc

-There is a job shortage, at least a certain number of people cant get jobs when they want them and there is work to be done. Therefore some people must be unemployed against their will!


The argument against the 'rags to riches' rhetoric is easier to rebut (eg the rich minority don't work but own the means of production, the majority work hard all life and don't become rich blah blah blah) than 'a homeless person can seize opportunities available, get a job and get out of poverty' which is a bit different.

WHAT DO YOU GUYS THINK? I KNOW SHE'S WRONG BUT WHAT WOULD HAVE BEEN YOUR ARGUMENT? CRITICISMS OF MINE? IM REALLY INTERESTED.


Also, how much to you let politics (if we can use that loaded word) affect your relationships eg with friends? I try and not let it come between my already established friends and I. I'm thinking that in this capitalist, propaganda filled society, with all authority figures debunking communism and belittling socialists, it is unsurprising that people have the views they do. It is to be expected and not really their fault (while a more open mind would be great). I was lucky to have socialist parents but I am guessing if I didn't, I would probably share the mainstream view. It's sad that this comes between people hey.

Thank you!

[CartCollector]

You could have asked her whether she would have hired him for a job that makes enough for him to be above poverty level.


Also, how much to you let politics (if we can use that loaded word) affect your relationships eg with friends? I try and not let it come between my already established friends and I.
Me too. Why let politics get in the way of friendship? Of course if your friends are open to hearing your views you can explain them. This would be an especially good thing given that people's conception of socialism, as you said, has been distorted. Who knows, you might even get some converts.

[RadioRaheem84]

Today my friend said she didn't give money to a homeless man because she doesn't want to encourage beggers. Also, that in a country like Australia, anyone can pull themselves out of poverty blah blah blah. 'Everything's a choice, whether people realise it or not.'



This type of thinking is prevalent in OZ too? Jeez, the insepid thinking of right wingers has seeped into every social outlook in the world. I hear this crap even among liberals too in the States. It seems like liberalism and social democracy is dead! It capitulated to Thatcherism and Reaganism the world over and is a former shadow of itself, while still peddles the idea that they're left of center.

[danyboy27]

i became paranoid about giving money to people the day i learned that a fews of my friend who earn a nice salary are doing it on purpose to get boose and buying other luxuries product.

they are wearing old clothes, and roam around the main street. during the summer, they could sometimes make around 40 a day.

i am not against giving away some money to poor folks, the problem now is that, i have to find out who is the real poor people in my neighborhood..

[RadioRaheem84]

i am not against giving away some money to poor folks, the problem now is that, i have to find out who is the real poor people in my neighborhood..

I assure you this isn't as rampant as you think. Have no fear about giving your money out to a person in need.

[danyboy27]

I assure you this isn't as rampant as you think. Have no fear about giving your money out to a person in need.

i hope so.

[chimx]

I never give money to the homeless because far too many of them are drug seeking. Penny charity isn't going to fix the problem: there is an inadequate amount of social safety nets, rehabilitation programs, medical institutions that provide for people with mental disabilities, etc.

So basically you're both wrong. No it isn't realistic that a drug-seeking schizophrenic is going to be able to pick himself back up by his own means, but giving him some change is just going to enable his current behavior.

[Jimmie Higgins]

This type of thinking is prevalent in OZ too? Jeez, the insepid thinking of right wingers has seeped into every social outlook in the world. I hear this crap even among liberals too in the States. It seems like liberalism and social democracy is dead! It capitulated to Thatcherism and Reaganism the world over and is a former shadow of itself, while still peddles the idea that they're left of center.

Of course there's this kind of thinking - there aren't any class divisions in Australia don't you know! The US is 100% middle class while Australia is a classless society.

[punisa]

There are many situations in life which can make you become homeless, despite all the vigor you put into your personal success.
For example, small entrepreneurship comes to mind.
You have a good idea and the system teaches you that you should try and monetize on it by opening your businesses.

But you make one mistake and boom - welcome to the beautiful world of homelessness.
Is it your faulty? Sure, the system will make you think it is, but I disagree.
The whole damn system is just a big grinding machine which destroys people's lives on big scale.

How about loans, debts, mortgages, unsuspected medical bills?
Nobody wants to be homeless, nobody. All these people have a story to tell, usually a sad and a bitter one.
They are humans too, I suggest striking a conversation with a homeless person. Don't just give him money, take him for a meal or a beer. Suggest that to your friend.

I don't give money to the beggers, maybe if I had some I would, but my pockets are usually as empty as theirs.
But charity is not a solution, charity is bullshit.

[Red Commissar]

Homeless people are an indictment on the system. People like the generalize them all as lazy and/or unstable, this may be the case with some of them, but the others simply are thrown out of the system and can't pull themselves out even if they wanted too.

I remember a saying along the lines of "a country is only as good as its poorest citizen" or something like that. It definitely applies here.

[Cowboy Killer]

My main argument is that even if everybody in poverty chose to get out they couldn't. With capitalism there simply has to be poor people.

[ContrarianLemming]

Hi.

Also, how much to you let politics (if we can use that loaded word) affect your relationships eg with friends? I try and not let it come between my already established friends and I. I'm thinking that in this capitalist, propaganda filled society, with all authority figures debunking communism and belittling socialists, it is unsurprising that people have the views they do. It is to be expected and not really their fault (while a more open mind would be great). I was lucky to have socialist parents but I am guessing if I didn't, I would probably share the mainstream view. It's sad that this comes between people hey.


i find it hard to stop it from interfering, i left a previous girlfriend because she was conservative, i couldn't take that, i just couldn't allow it, completely unacceptable, couldn't let her raise kids with me and spread such beliefs, theres enough of them already.

[ContrarianLemming]

I remember a saying along the lines of "a country is only as good as its poorest citizen" or something like that. It definitely applies here.

another saying goes.. "don't judge a country by how it's leaders are treated, but by how it's poor are" i believe it was plato or aristotle

[ZeroNowhere]

That would be Aristotle, I believe. Also Pope John Paul II, I believe, against abortion and euthanasia.

[manic expression]

The next time someone tries putting out the "social mobility argument", here's a nice way of shutting them down: every peasant in feudal society had the opportunity to break into the nobility. Many peasant sons would be taken as pages by knights, and would eventually receive their accolades as a noble. This was happening as late as the 100 Years' War. So the same arguments about capitalist "social mobility" could easily be applied to feudalism...ask them, do you support feudalism under the same reasoning? Keep defining the argument under these terms, and just sit back and watch them scramble in desperation.

[Leaf]

@ chimx

This time it happens that I didn't give him any change. But I certainly don't believe that giving homeless people change is going to 'enable his current behaviour'. Whatever do you mean?! You are reminding me a lot of those conservatives who argue that: the dole enables uznemployment, implying if they didn't get the dole, they would have incentive to get off their dole bludging asses and get a bloody job etc. You are sounding patronising - homeless man is being naughty, don't encourage him.

I never suggested penny charity, or charity at all will solve any problems. Of course philanthropy isn't going to save the world. It's irrelevant, it tries to lesson poverty in a tiny way where socialists want to create a society where no one will enter poverty in the first place. "When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist."
etc etc I'm sure you know this.


What do you mean by 'his current behaviour'? His homelessness and begging? So giving someone some coins allows them to be homeless and beg? This makes no sense. So how am I wrong?

[Leaf]

@ punisa

Thank you for the response, they were some really interesting, useful and true insights.
I consider myself pretty open minded and have had a few convos with homeless people

I completely agree charity is not a solution of course, I would not be a communist if I did.

I think the social psychology around homeless people is pretty interesting. There is often a hatred of them, even though they don't know anything about the person. Such hostility rather than pity. There also seems a fear of them. People tend not to look at beggars as they walk by. It sure hurts my conscience to see the poverty. Hating and blaming victims - I hate this mindset so much, I hear it everywhere. I wonder how they explain homelessness if they think that anyone can pull themselves out. Do they think the homeless enjoy the lifestyle of poverty not working and 'bludging off others'? They can't be that stupid surely. I guess people just don't think very deeply about it.

[Leaf]

:blink::p:cool::thumbup1::)bump

[Stranger Than Paradise]

Anyone who says society is based on choice and consent is bordering on Glenn Beck levels of ignorance, reaction and stupidity. The only consent in Capitalist society is the consent of the ruling class. Wage slavery and exploitation cannot be escaped or avoided

[RadioRaheem84]

The next time someone tries putting out the "social mobility argument", here's a nice way of shutting them down: every peasant in feudal society had the opportunity to break into the nobility. Many peasant sons would be taken as pages by knights, and would eventually receive their accolades as a noble. This was happening as late as the 100 Years' War. So the same arguments about capitalist "social mobility" could easily be applied to feudalism...ask them, do you support feudalism under the same reasoning? Keep defining the argument under these terms, and just sit back and watch them scramble in desperation.


Please expand on this Manic! You have something good here.

Anyone else care to explain? I would like to use this as a counter argument.

[Nolan]

The next time someone tries putting out the "social mobility argument", here's a nice way of shutting them down: every peasant in feudal society had the opportunity to break into the nobility. Many peasant sons would be taken as pages by knights, and would eventually receive their accolades as a noble. This was happening as late as the 100 Years' War. So the same arguments about capitalist "social mobility" could easily be applied to feudalism...ask them, do you support feudalism under the same reasoning? Keep defining the argument under these terms, and just sit back and watch them scramble in desperation.

I think a better one would be slavery. There were quite a few slaveholders who were once slaves themselves, and they were just as cruel.