Britain Ireland bridge or tunnel.

[Dr Mindbender]

This is mainly directed towards British and Irish comrades.

Would you support a bridge built between Northern Ireland and Galloway in Scotland either by a direct bridge or tunnel?

[Tifosi]

That would be some bridge! a tunnel would be better. A rail tunnel like the channel tunnel would be the best way to do it, wouldn't have crazy drivers racing up and down this tunnel, a train would be faster and cost less. A bridge would also fuck up shipping.

I don't see how anyone wouldn't want to have a tunnel built, it would be good for everyone but P&O:D, faster than a boat that's for sure.

[RedAnarchist]

Seeing as a lot of people do travel between those two places, it would make sense to have such a tunnel, and there has been proposals for such a tunnel before.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Sea_tunnel

[Dr Mindbender]

That would be some bridge!
theres actually already a longer one in china.


A bridge would also fuck up shipping.


Not if they made it tall enough for ships to pass under it. Theres a direct bridge between sweden and denmark which doesnt cause a problem.


I suspect the arguments against are political as well as economic. Ultra-green irish republicans would feel it is an affront to ireland's autonomy from britain and land owing toffs in galloway dont want a motorway built across their beloved golf courses.

Still how cool would it be to be able to get a train between dublin and london without stepping onto a boat or plane?

[Demogorgon]

Not if they made it tall enough for ships to pass under it. Theres a direct bridge between sweden and denmark which doesnt cause a problem.

That is a bridge, tunnel hybrid. Midway through at a small island I think it transitions so ships aren't affected. Generally speaking I think in the cas eof Britain and Ireland a tunnel would be preferable.

[Dimentio]

Definetly a bridge-tunnel hybrid, if the sea is shallow enough for it.

[Tifosi]

theres actually already a longer one in china

Now that must be some bridge! I remember seeing a picture of this bridge in America, I think it is Iowa. The bridge looked like it went on for mile after mile.

I'm sure there is also a village 50 mile out in the Caspian Sea, off the coast of Azerbaijan. Built in the days of the USSR it was an oil village. There was a road that went to this village.


Not if they made it tall enough for ships to pass under it. Theres a direct bridge between sweden and denmark which doesnt cause a problem.

I have seen that bridge, it's long but not around 15 mile long. It would be a massive engineering challenge to make a brigade of such height over this distance.


Still how cool would it be to be able to get a train between dublin and london without stepping onto a boat or plane?

It's better than sea sickness:lol:

[Bitter Ashes]

The English Channel is the busiest shipping lane in the world. Feel free to check Guiness World Records for that, or whatever. It also has a tunnel running underneath it now. It's 31 miles long, 250 feet below the water at its deepest and took nearly 10 years of work to get operational.

The feasibility of building such a tunnel is there I'm sure, but you've got to think what it's going to connect to-from. With the Channel tunnel, it runs between Calais and Dover, which were traditionaly (and still are) the major ports that the ferries and haulage used to use too.

To do the same with Ireland you'd either be going from Liverpool/Birkenhead to Dublin, Belfast or Douglas. Clearly that is a MUCH longer tunnel than the Channel Tunnel and deeper too, so would be slower progress to protect the tunnel from the pressure above.

The other possibility is going from Holyhead to Dublin. That's about 3 times shorter a journey, but the issue there is that I doubt Holyhead is up to the task. There's no motorway connection to it and the rail network out there is AWFUL. I personaly think that Holyhead would struggle to provide enough accomidation, not only for passengers, but also the workers involved in building and running the tunnel.

It'd also be a death nail for Liverpool and the Wirral, which has been trying to hold onto the docks for decades now. Maybe I'm biased because I'm from The Wirral, but I just can't justify that kind of redundancies. Sure, I'm sure workers would head to Holyhead to get jobs there, but that'd destroy the community in Mersyside and believe me, the Welsh in Holyhead will NOT welcome the English workers with the current state of Welsh nationalism, especially in the far West of Wales. Liverpool manages 33million tonnes of cargo per year, while Holyhead only copes with with 3 million.

I'd be against the tunnel. Ferries do the job of passenger transit perfectly well and there's no substantial hauling routes that would be improved by such a massive undertaking.

edit: Not looked much at this, but gives an idea of inpractical an idea this is
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Sea_Tunnel

[Dr Mindbender]

To do the same with Ireland you'd either be going from Liverpool/Birkenhead to Dublin, Belfast or Douglas. Clearly that is a MUCH longer tunnel than the Channel Tunnel and deeper too, so would be slower progress to protect the tunnel from the pressure above.
Not necessarilly. At their closest points, (the Antrim coast and Galloway) Ireland and Scotland are only seperated by 15 miles which is certainly comparable to the length of the channel tunnel.

With them being largely rural areas, the arguments against are a matter of environment and practicality (having to build new road infrastructure etc). In a nutshell i am for this, I think such a structure would greatly help the Northern Irish economy. Theres damn few jobs, even by GB standards; the celtic tiger has all but passed us by, and maybe more british companies would be willing to invest here if it wasnt so damn awkward to get here.

[Dr Mindbender]

Just to prove a bridge isnt as whimsical as it sounds.

Worlds longest bridge-




(http://stable.toolserver.org/geohack/geohack.php?pagename=Donghai_Bridge&params=30_45.43_N_121_58.13_E_scale:125000)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/b/b6/Donghai_Bridge_Construction.jpg/220px-Donghai_Bridge_Construction.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Donghai_Bridge_Construction.jpg) http://bits.wikimedia.org/skins-1.5/common/images/magnify-clip.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Donghai_Bridge_Construction.jpg)
Donghai Bridge while under construction


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6d/Donghai_Bridge.jpg/220px-Donghai_Bridge.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Donghai_Bridge.jpg) http://bits.wikimedia.org/skins-1.5/common/images/magnify-clip.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Donghai_Bridge.jpg)
Donghai Bridge


Donghai Bridge (simplified Chinese (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simplified_Chinese_characters): 东海大桥; traditional Chinese (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traditional_Chinese_characters): 東海大橋; pinyin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinyin): Dōnghǎi Dàqiáo; literally "East Sea Grand Bridge") was the longest cross-sea bridge in the world until Hangzhou Bay Bridge (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hangzhou_Bay_Bridge) opened on 1 May 2008. It was completed on December 10, 2005. It has a total length of 32.5 kilometres (20.2 miles) and connects mainland Shanghai (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shanghai) and the offshore Yangshan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yangshan) deep-water port in China (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People%27s_Republic_of_China). Most of the bridge is a low-level viaduct (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viaduct). There are also cable-stayed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cable-stayed_bridge) sections to allow for the passage of large ships, largest with span of 420 m.

[Bitter Ashes]

Not necessarilly. At their closest points, (the Antrim coast and Galloway) Ireland and Scotland are only seperated by 15 miles which is certainly comparable to the length of the channel tunnel.

With them being largely rural areas, the arguments against are a matter of environment and practicality (having to build new road infrastructure etc). In a nutshell i am for this, I think such a structure would greatly help the Northern Irish economy. Theres damn few jobs, even by GB standards; the celtic tiger has all but passed us by, and maybe more british companies would be willing to invest here if it wasnt so damn awkward to get here.
*coughs*
I did go on about that idea.


The other possibility is going from Holyhead to Dublin. That's about 3 times shorter a journey, but the issue there is that I doubt Holyhead is up to the task. There's no motorway connection to it and the rail network out there is AWFUL. I personaly think that Holyhead would struggle to provide enough accomidation, not only for passengers, but also the workers involved in building and running the tunnel.

It'd also be a death nail for Liverpool and the Wirral, which has been trying to hold onto the docks for decades now. Maybe I'm biased because I'm from The Wirral, but I just can't justify that kind of redundancies. Sure, I'm sure workers would head to Holyhead to get jobs there, but that'd destroy the community in Mersyside and believe me, the Welsh in Holyhead will NOT welcome the English workers with the current state of Welsh nationalism, especially in the far West of Wales. Liverpool manages 33million tonnes of cargo per year, while Holyhead only copes with with 3 million.

I'd be against the tunnel. Ferries do the job of passenger transit perfectly well and there's no substantial hauling routes that would be improved by such a massive undertaking.

[Salyut]

Undersea vactrain tunnel. You know you want it.

I bet you could implement some goodies if they do a bridge, OTEC or something integrated into the bridge supports. Wind turbines would be really easy to do.

[Dr Mindbender]

*coughs*
I did go on about that idea.

you just said dublin-holyhead which would be crazy.

On a clear day you can actually see Scotland from here. I reckon a bridge would be more than possible but the problem is the lack of financial and political will.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

A rail tunnel could be powered by renewables/nuclear as opposed to fossil fuel burning ferries. Seems like an idea worth investigating to me.

[Dean]

Just to prove a bridge isnt as whimsical as it sounds.

Worlds longest bridge-

[B]

I think ours was the longest for awhile: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chesapeake_Bay_Bridge-Tunnel


Diagram (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:CBBT_Info_Sign.svg)

[Dr Mindbender]

A rail tunnel could be powered by renewables/nuclear as opposed to fossil fuel burning ferries. Seems like an idea worth investigating to me.

Quite, i'd like to see an underground japanese style bullet train.

Only problem is since the trains in the major cities still burn diesel AFAIK you'd have to reequip every connecting train station in britain and ireland with the new technology.

Besides which for it to be economically viable you'd have to have a road connection in tandem for petrol burning cars.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Only problem is since the trains in the major cities still burn diesel AFAIK you'd have to reequip every connecting train station in britain and ireland with the new technology.

Shouldn't that be done anyway?

[Dean]

Shouldn't that be done anyway?

I think it is easy to forget how valuable reorganizing our energy sources can be. Just shifting most of these stationary systems to fuels like nuclear, hydro/water/thermal or even coal, can free up petrol for consumer use. Its a lot more feasible, I think, to refit power plants and freighters than it is to re-engineer every consumer vehicle on the road.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

I don't think we should be burning oil or coal at all - a far better use for such resources would be as sources for plastics and other recyclable materials. Internal combustion engines should be used as sparingly as possible, and fueled by methane derived from the oceans of sewage that civilisation produces.

Seems more sustainable to me.

[Dr Mindbender]

Shouldn't that be done anyway?

It probably should but i'm not optimistic of any goverment likely to be ruling anytime soon implementing this for the sake of having a contiguous tunnel running effectively between britain and ireland or for any other reason for that matter. I'm even less optimistic about both concerned countries pursuing such technology simultaneously.

We don't have electric trains for the same reason we don't have electric cars, everytime the technology is proposed the petrol companies throw their toys out of the pram.

[Q]

We don't have electric trains for the same reason we don't have electric cars, everytime the technology is proposed the petrol companies throw their toys out of the pram.

You are aware that many countries in Western-Europe operate their trains almost entirely electrically, right?

[Dr Mindbender]

You are aware that many countries in Western-Europe operate their trains almost entirely electrically, right?

hmmmph you had to piss on my salad didnt you.

Not being a frequent visitor to the continent i wasnt aware of this.

Although Britain and Ireland certainly arent among them to my knowledge and in this case are the only 2 relevant countries.

[Gravedigger01]

I personally wouldn't.It would cost a lot of money for this tunnel and it is not really in Britains benefit to build this because Ireland only hasd a population of 4 million and that is not much tourism copared to France-Britain tunnel.We currently have the ferries and they seem to be doing fine

[Dr Mindbender]

I personally wouldn't.It would cost a lot of money for this tunnel and it is not really in Britains benefit to build this because Ireland only hasd a population of 4 million and that is not much tourism copared to France-Britain tunnel.We currently have the ferries and they seem to be doing fine

I think it would be to ireland's benefit though. It would help the tourist industry as more people from europe and britain could get their cars here and Ireland could be turned into the logistics centre of europe with goods being shipped in from north america.

Or imagine a direct rail connection between Dublin and Paris, i for one would use it.

[Jacobinist]

Once Ireland gets a bridge or tunnel, it will never truly have it's own Republic. Tunnel is my preference.

[Q]

Once Ireland gets a bridge or tunnel, it will never truly have it's own Republic. Tunnel is my preference.

Genuine self-determination within the context of capitalism, a global system in which Ireland is an integral - yet only second ranking - part of, is impossible, island or not. And yeah, a (train)tunnel has my preference as well.

[Jolly Red Giant]

It would be a massive waste of resources on a project that is unnecessary - there are ample air and ferry links.

The only time that such a project might be feasible is if they every get the mega speed maglev trains working in practice.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

It would be a massive waste of resources on a project that is unnecessary - there are ample air and ferry links.

There may be a large initial investment, but in the long term it makes sense - planes and ferries burn fuel which is limited and polluting, yet a rail tunnel link can use nuclear and renewable energy into the foreseeable future.


The only time that such a project might be feasible is if they every get the mega speed maglev trains working in practice.

Why? The distance is not that great, ordinary railways are efficient enough right now, and the tunnel can be designed to be upgradeable to maglev technology in the future.

[pastradamus]

Not necessarilly. At their closest points, (the Antrim coast and Galloway) Ireland and Scotland are only seperated by 15 miles which is certainly comparable to the length of the channel tunnel.


Even Still, if they did build that tunnel from Galloway to Antrim they'd probably charge you a small fortune to use the thing (like the channell tunnel). I dont see the demand for a tunnel linking Northern Ireland and Scotland being that big. If on the otherhand the republic was linked with Britain it would be of far greater economic benefit in terms of trade. But then again your losing lots of the passanger shipping in the process and therefore the capitalist liners will sack mass amounts of workers.

[Dr Mindbender]

I dont see the demand for a tunnel linking Northern Ireland and Scotland being that big.
Are you fucking kidding me?

What about during the Glasgow derby? :lol:


If on the otherhand the republic was linked with Britain it would be of far greater economic benefit in terms of trade. But then again your losing lots of the passanger shipping in the process.

I cant see a bridge between britain and the republic purely for geographic reasons. It would be far too long and quite simply would be an economic drain of colossal proportions. I think a tunnel from Dublin to Holyhead would be several times the length of the channel tunnel. I cant see Britain or Ireland commiting the money towards such a project, even with EU subsidies.

Theres probably no lack of bias on my part but i think the arguments for an Ulster-Scotland bridge are much stronger, such as the strong cultural ties and the fact that the maritime distance is that much less. Another reason i think it would be a pity if a round rail route from Dublin to London were to miss Belfast.


therefore the capitalist liners will sack mass amounts of workers.

That i dont know about. Is there any empirical evidence of English channel ferry workers being sacked right after the channel tunnel opened?

I dont think the tunnel will necessarilly mean less shipping traffic. It will probably mean mainly that more people will be inclined to drive their cars over that might originally have been disuaded by the cost of having to ferry it over. Either way the tunnel/bridge will inevitably create jobs anyway.

[Dr Mindbender]

Once Ireland gets a bridge or tunnel, it will never truly have it's own Republic. Tunnel is my preference.

IMO the ROI is heading towards amalgamation into the European superstate anyway.

It may as well gain physical contiguity and complete the process.