Language, sexism and class

[Devrim]

Policy No. 8 says: "In addition, all forms of social prejudice are considered restrictable offenses. This includes but is not limited to sexism, homophobia, transphobia and racism."

You called me a *****, that *****, a certain *****, ***** 6 times here (http://www.revleft.com/vb/unsuspend-arizona-bay-t130896/index.html), how does that equate to me giving a simple verbal warning for spamming the members forum? Not once in that thread did you address me by my proper username.

What you did far exceeds any action I gave, Alastair. According to policy ^^ you can receive an infraction for each time you used predjudicial language.

I was quite shocked this morning to learn that '*****' was also to be considered a sexist word, alongside another one beginning with 'C', whose use has been banned on this forum.

It is surprising for me because having lived in two English speaking countries (England and Ireland), and still visiting them reasonably regularly, the vast majority of people I know use both of these terms including feminists.

Now I am not suggesting that either of these terms be allowed as forms of abuse on Revleft, and I certainly don't want to go down the road into that discussion again. They are both abusive terms and should be unacceptable as such, and obviously do cause offence to some people, which is also reason enough not to use them.

I also accept that it is along time since I lived there and use may have changed amongst the younger generation. To me though I see sexism in unequal wages, and employment practises, restrictions in contraception, etc, not in the everyday language that people speak.

I find it quite ironic that people are willing to jump up and down whenever these words are used, but when something like this (http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1689695&postcount=1)is posted, which to me stinks of the most patronising 'middle class' anti-working class prejudice, it stays there for 3 days with nobody even mentioning it.

It seems to me that it is perfectly OK on here to stigmatise the working class, but to mutter a single word that upsets 'middle class' sensibilities and you will be immediatly jumped on.

Devrim

[Kommrad Stalen]

i totally agree Comrade it's pretty Ironic how failtard 10 year old anarchos will cry about "red fascism" in the Democraitc Peoples Republic of Korea but what about when they are doing total censorship of all opinions here??????

[Physicist]

Language that may be construed as (or actually is) offensive can result in many headaches. It's a jaded line that falls under pretentious anger, prejudiced defamation, and simple misunderstanding. Generational, regional, and even individualistic attributes to the same word stir confusion when someone uses terms like "bimbo," "*****," "dick," "****," or, as a recent political issue demonstrates, "Negro."

My opinion is that we each need to swallow our pride for a moment and ascertain to the best of our abilities just what the person meant. If an elderly WASP with little contact outside of family relations uses an antiqued *but at the time acceptable* term like "Negro," it seems a tad unfair to apply the verbal standards of today onto said person. Likewise as words evolve to take on more gender-neutral meanings, or in the case of some words like bimbo new gender associations, applying yesteryear's standards may be at odds with newer generations.

Perhaps this issue is one of mediation. The words which spark debates over their usage are still in an awkward transformation. "*****" now has an affirmative connotation that can be used between (most) feminist men and women without much controversy, yet it still has some old baggage. Being a possible insult complicates the matter as people who hear a word like "*****" or "****" used on men will think nothing of it if used against women. It's become gender-neutral to them.

Unfortunately, people do continue to use language to hurt other ethnic/social/gender groups, but their intent is usually quite clear...

[gorillafuck]

I find it quite ironic that people are willing to jump up and down whenever these words are used, but when something like this (http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1689695&postcount=1)is posted, which to me stinks of the most patronising 'middle class' anti-working class prejudice, it stays there for 3 days with nobody even mentioning it.
What is a "yob"?

[bricolage]

I also accept that it is along time since I lived there and use may have changed amongst the younger generation. To me though I see sexism in unequal wages, and employment practises, restrictions in contraception, etc, not in the everyday language that people speak.

Hmmm, yes and so. Structural constraints are more evidently discriminatory and produce more tangiable effects but at the same time I think things extend further than that. A lot of society is structured along a set of discourses and patriarchy is clearly one of them, so while '*****' could be be both heavily sexist ('fucking *****') and emancipatory (as a reclaimed term) other things such as, for example, 'calm down darling' used in an argument is clearly resorting to sexism. While I think there is a tendency for the 'left' to be seen as very insular, entering into lengthy polemics against each other about the use of, for example, '*****' (note; often confined to middle class individuals, I doubt these same people would say the same to, say, working class Yorkshiremen) at the same time I don't think you can just reduce sexism to wages, jobs etc, and have to look at the way it intersects with everyday practices. So men pushing prams isn't something that can be adjusted structurally but it's still a sign of changing ways of thinking and engaging with each other.

I'd also just say that while I don't think there is anything to be gained from banning ***** or c**t, there is a tendency for men to get very defensive about their supposed right to use these words against whoever they like and whenever they like. In that respect when a woman might say she is offended by it there is never an attempt to try and understand where she might be coming from but instead just a view to continue in the same vain, often accusing her of being, perhaps somewhat ironically, a *****.


What is a "yob"?

Precursor to chav. (As a generalisation) white working class kids who tend to be seen as 'anti-social'.

[Rjevan]

It is surprising for me because having lived in two English speaking countries (England and Ireland), and still visiting them reasonably regularly, the vast majority of people I know use both of these terms including feminists.
Just because many people use a word doesn't mean that there is noting wrong with it and it's perfectly acceptable. I have no idea when and how the usage of these words arose in the English language but that they are widely accepted rather shows that the sexist meaning they originally had was acceptable back then. And instead of explaining the fact that they are still common and "acceptable" today by a "lovely old tradition", that people got used to these words and that actually nobody has the original meaning in mind when insulting each other, I think it shows that sexism is rooted in everyday's language and in my opinion this is worrying. Maybe I'm taking this issue too seriously as somebody who is not a native English speaker and thus connects different and more literal meanings to certain words but if I were in a country where everybody merrily used the term "ni****" to insult or refer to others I'd see this as a worrying sign of common and socially accepted racism. Just as I see the totally common habit here in Germany to insult others by and label anything you dislike as "gay" as homophobic and the increasing usage of "Jew" as an insult among youths as worrying anti-semitism.


To me though I see sexism in unequal wages, and employment practises, restrictions in contraception, etc, not in the everyday language that people speak.
Of course these examples are far worse and deserve much more attention but as I said, in my opinion socially accepted sexist language is part of the problem and thus should not (and cannot) be ingored when fighting sexism.


It seems to me that it is perfectly OK on here to stigmatise the working class, but to mutter a single word that upsets 'middle class' sensibilities and you will be immediatly jumped on.
I just skimmed through the text but I couldn't see anything "stigmatising the working class". Is/was the word "yob" related to the working class in an offensive way? If so, I never ever heard about that meaning and I am pretty sure that psycho didn't know about it, too.


What is a "yob"?
I know only this meaning and would paraphrase it as "hooligan" but better ask a native English speaker.

[bricolage]

One other thing, I'd say on the internet I'd be more critical of the usage of potentially sexist words seeing as you don't really know who the person is, what gender they might be, the tone they are using, how they intend the word etc etc. Additionally on the internet, behind the cloak of the computer screen, it does appear that underlying sexism, elitism and the like spills out a lot more than in real life.

[Devrim]

so while '*****' could be be both heavily sexist ('fucking *****') and emancipatory (as a reclaimed term)

I don't see why in any way.


there is a tendency for men to get very defensive about their supposed right to use these words against whoever they like and whenever they like. In that respect when a woman might say she is offended by it there is never an attempt to try and understand where she might be coming from but instead just a view to continue in the same vain, often accusing her of being, perhaps somewhat ironically, a *****.

I personally don't defend my 'right' to use it, and they are not the sort of words I use on here as people who have read my posts know*. I do use them in real life, but wouldn't if somebody who I was with got offended by them.

I also think that they should be banned from 'Revleft', but not because they are sexist, but because I think swearing and personal insults should be banned anway, as it isn't really an appropriate setting.


Being a possible insult complicates the matter as people who hear a word like "*****" or "****" used on men will think nothing of it if used against women. It's become gender-neutral to them.

As I have pointed about before, in English usage it is used almost exclusively for men. I would be very surprised to hear it used to refer to a woman.

Devrim

*With the exception of once to Bob Kindles.

[Devrim]

I just skimmed through the text but I couldn't see anything "stigmatising the working class". Is/was the word "yob" related to the working class in an offensive way? If so, I never ever heard about that meaning and I am pretty sure that psycho didn't know about it, too.

I take it that you are not a native English speaker, and I am not surprised that you didn't pick up on it. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if Americans didn't either.

When I first read through the piece I thought it was a clever parody. It reads like a piece from the English tabloid the daily Mail. It uses al of the same sort of phrases and concepts that are used to stigmatize working class people within the 'middle class', things like "drunken (racist) thugs", "binge-drinking yob culture", "paying homage to cheap fizzy Australian, Danish and Belgian lagers", "lout", "filthy louts", " football hooligans", "dregs of society"...

I think that this sentence sums up the class feeling in the article:


The EDL regard themselves as untouchables since the bail terms for their leaders were overturned in court, but this fails to explain why the capital's bastians of law and order see fit not to apply the letter of the law to these lawless racist football hooligans, when law-abiding social workers, students and humanitarian anti-racist campaigners are jostled, harassed, and even arrested without charge for peacefully opposing fascism, is beyond explanation.

Look at how the two sides are defined, one is football hooligans and the others are people in professional (social workers) jobs or soon to be in professional jobs(students).

On another point the whole basis of the article is to appeal to 'middle England'. Personally, I don't care at all if fascists urinate on a church. It is possibly the least offensive thing they do.

Devrim

[Physicist]

'calm down darling' used in an argument is clearly resorting to sexism.

The phrase 'calm down' by itself could be taken to be sexist if used against a female, and in some situations we could justly argue its filthiness as self-evident (as a vague generalization of PMS or something else), but you can have conflicting purposes that lie at the heart of the same phrase. I think each person - the speaker and listener - are responsible for keeping check of their invaluable empathy. In other words, don't jump to conclusions. If the person gets offended by you calling him or her a *****, I don't see why it would be wrong to refrain from using that word again. Reversely, don't assume the other person is yielding to prejiduce if there's no clear intent.

Before someone misreads that remark, I'll clarify by saying that women should never accept sexism, but that we should all realise that language and its application are not universal. Connotations vary with each person.

[Physicist]

but if I were in a country where everybody merrily used the term "ni****" to insult or refer to others I'd see this as a worrying sign of common and socially accepted racism. Just as I see the totally common habit here in Germany to insult others by and label anything you dislike as "gay" as homophobic and the increasing usage of "Jew" as an insult among youths as worrying anti-semitism.


Again, I think debates over what's acceptable or not emerge from words that weigh in with both new and old connotations. For example, I don't think anyone here would call for administrative retribution if I said, "You're lame," but this was once a reference to mentally challenged persons that eventually became antique and even "non-PC." This old usage has virtually been erased from the public's awareness.

Interestingly enough, I've been called "nigger" and "nigga" by black Americans (yet lacking that same pigmentation) - seemingly as an endearing phrase for friendship - so I think even the worst words could evolve to adopt new attributes. It's too soon to tell.

[Devrim]

If the person gets offended by you calling him or her a *****, I don't see why it would be wrong to refrain from using that word again.

If you call somebody a '*****' directly to their face, rather than using it to refer to a third party, then you obviously mean to offend anyway.

Devrim

[Physicist]

If you call somebody a '*****' directly to their face, rather than using it to refer to a third party, then you obviously mean to offend anyway.

Devrim

True most of the time, but I know in the DFW area (and perhaps to a wider American audience) "*****" can be an endearing term for a male or female, ie "you're a good looking *****."

[bricolage]

I don't see why in any way.

I terms of an emancipatory use I guess it comes down again to sexism as manifest in language, but reclaiming words like ***** was quite important to some modern variants of feminism;



Words such as spinster (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spinster), ***** (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/*****), whore (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whore), and **** (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/****) continue to be used in derogatory ways about women. Inga Muscio writes, "I posit that we’re free to seize a word that was kidnapped and co-opted in a pain-filled, distant, past, with a ransom that cost our grandmothers’ freedom, children, traditions, pride, and land." Third-wave feminists believe it is better to change the meaning of a sexist word than to censor it from speech.

Part of taking back the word ***** (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/*****) was fueled by the 1992 single, "All Women Are *****es (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_Women_Are_*****es)" by the all woman band Fifth Column (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifth_Column_%28band%29) and, later, by the 1999 book *****: In Praise of Difficult Women by Elizabeth Wurtzel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_Wurtzel). In the successful declaration of the word ***** (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/*****), Wurtzel introduces her philosophy: "I intend to scream, shout, race the engine, call when I feel like it, throw tantrums in Bloomingdale's if I feel like it and confess intimate details about my life to complete strangers. I intend to do what I want to do and be whom I want to be and answer only to myself: that is, quite simply, the ***** philosophy." [18] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third-wave_feminism#cite_note-17) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third-wave_feminism#Reclaiming_derogatory_terms
(Apologies for the use of wikipedia)

It's similar to queer going from a form of insult to a type of affinity as well as a form of theory/analysis. Although it is indeed true that there is no consensus of whether this is a 'good' thing.


I personally don't defend my 'right' to use it,I never said you did.


and they are not the sort of words I use on here as people who have read my posts know*. I do use them in real life, but wouldn't if somebody who I was with got offended by them.That's all fair enough.


I also think that they should be banned from 'Revleft', but not because they are sexist, but because I think swearing and personal insults should be banned anway, as it isn't really an appropriate setting.Well I guess that's a whole other argument in itself, I'd tend to agree (specifically in regards to the comments I made here about the problems of the internet itself) although such words could be used in a non-insulting manner, eg. 'organising that meeting was a *****, noone ever replies to their emails'.


As I have pointed about before, in English usage it is used almost exclusively for men. I would be very surprised to hear it used to refer to a woman.What, *****? I'd say it's used almost exclusively to refer to women. For a man it would more likely be 'prick' or 'dick' or something like that.

[Devrim]

No, I wasn't clear there, sorry. '*****' is exclusivly female. I was refering to the word that is banned on here.
Devrim

[Il Medico]

Language is difficult. I think the best policy for Revleft is to not use words that are offensive to a particular group, even if it can and is used in non-prejudiced ways. For example the way a word like "*****" is said. If someone called a woman a "fucking *****" it is obviously offensive and clearly sexist. However, there are other ways in which it is used in real life, like a person greeting a group of friends by saying "Whats up *****es". My point is that "*****" along with "****" or a any number of other words that are not allowed here are against the rules they have discriminatory origins and can be used in discriminatory way, not because they are always used that way.

[Devrim]

For example the way a word like "*****" is said. If someone called a woman a "fucking *****" it is obviously offensive and clearly sexist.

Maybe I am really stupid, but I don't at all get why it is 'clearly' sexist. I don't think that 'fucking *****' is in any way a sexist term.

Devrim

[Devrim]

I think that it is quite telling about Revleft that nearly all of the discussion here is about the use of so called sexist words, and nearly non is about the other piece.

Devrim