Do Libertarians support DRM?

[The Idler]

Do Libertarians support Digital Rights Management? The Free Software Foundation described Digital Rights Management as Digital Restrictions Management.

[Havet]

It appears not:

http://boingboing.net/2006/03/21/rightwing_thinktank_.html

[IcarusAngel]

So they support it they just don't think it should be illegal to crack it.

My solution: abolish property rights in software.

[Dimentio]

My solution: Talk about something else than libertarianism here for a change...

[IcarusAngel]

It matters what Libertarians think because they invented everything and are in charge of everything.

And yes I'm joking

[Havet]

My solution: abolish property rights in software.

Seconded

[Skooma Addict]

My solution: Talk about something else than libertarianism here for a change...

I noticed that there has been a huge surge in the number of threads about libertarians lately. You guys are usually the ones making them though. Although I won't be here to respond to them much longer since I promised myself a while back that I would be finished after 1,000 posts.

[Havet]

I noticed that there has been a huge surge in the number of threads about libertarians lately. You guys are usually the ones making them though. Although I won't be here to respond to them much longer since I promised myself a while back that I would be finished after 1,000 posts.

Still a long way to go...

[Dimentio]

I noticed that there has been a huge surge in the number of threads about libertarians lately. You guys are usually the ones making them though. Although I won't be here to respond to them much longer since I promised myself a while back that I would be finished after 1,000 posts.

I don't claim that you started them.

Neither have I personally started any thread about libertarianism here lately, if my memory doesn't fail me of course...

[John_Jordan]

My solution: Talk about something else than libertarianism here for a change...

I'd have to agree. I've been here for two weeks or so and I'm already sick of it. I can't imagine what it'd be like to have to suffer through months, or years of this.

[Dimentio]

Its just a recent trend, but quite irritating. We have like 2/3d's of the active threads in the OI which are centered around libertarianism.

[Havet]

I'd have to agree. I've been here for two weeks or so and I'm already sick of it. I can't imagine what it'd be like to have to suffer through months, or years of this.

You have no idea. And it's not a recent trent. It's been going on ever since I became a member (about a year ago). Everytime a new libertarian comes up at least 5 threads regarding libertarianism pop-up (In my case, I popped up about 10/month). Usually, it's because:

- The new member wants to troll/prove-hes-right/debate
- Older members want to show the newcomers how wrong they are

[Left-Reasoning]

Its just a recent trend, but quite irritating. We have like 2/3d's of the active threads in the OI which are centered around libertarianism.

I wouldn't mind a thread on libertarian socialism.

[Skooma Addict]

I wouldn't mind a thread on libertarian socialism.

Or a thread on the most annoying group of people on the planet: uninformed middle/upper class "progressives."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vknHKTy1MLY

[cb9's_unity]

Or a thread on the most annoying group of people on the planet: uninformed middle/upper class "progressives."

vknHKTy1MLY

Somebody been watching Glenn Beck lately?

Next thing you know you'll be talking about how Obama is waging Marxist class war while giving billions upon billions of dollars to banks.

[Skooma Addict]

Somebody been watching Glenn Beck lately?


What?

[IcarusAngel]

Yeah, notice how the racist Mises supporters, NWO types, and other idiots are spamming that video with nonsense about how stupid the young people are and how they need to respect constitutional authority and oppose "collectivism" and all that crap, and how young people need to "respect god." These are the type of trolling youtube comments and spamming alternative Ron Paul accounts that makes the internet less effective. It seems if conservatives can't control something they try and use force so other people can't use it, either.

They compare these kids to "hitler youth" when it's the conservative scout movement that is more similar to Nazis.

also, keep in mind that many mathematicians post 1500s did their best work when they were under 30. Godel and Russell - both geniuses at logic - were young when they proved their work. Russell imo was one of the best logicians in history and supposedly had a high IQ, 180 or so. He overcomplicated his type theory and set theory but nonetheless it was influential.

That said, I don't know how accurate their numbers (the videos) are regarding the influence of these "young people." There are a lot of conservative young people. Also, they don't prove that the young people are going to usher in a wave of progressive values. If anything America has gotten more corporatist/anti-progressive since the 70s.

What's also funny is that conservatives tended to be the founders of empiricism and liberals the founders of rationalism but in today's world liberals are the scientists and empiricists whereas conservatives still appeal to rational principles they can't prove.

But if there was a war between these progressives and the racists and NWO I'd favor the progressives any day of the weak... Marxists can learn from progressives in that many scientists and mathematicians are progressive and do have something to say.

[cb9's_unity]

Beck recently featured that video for the better parts of one of his episodes. And generally when Beck mentions anything liberal the conservatives are out in force the next few days pushing his opinion with the material he used.

[Skooma Addict]

Yea but the Generation We people are so damn stupid and annoying. I really hope you aren't comparing them to Russell (I don't think you are, but it would be dumb if you were).

[Skooma Addict]

Beck recently featured that video for the better parts of one of his episodes. And generally when Beck mentions anything liberal the conservatives are out in force the next few days pushing his opinion with the material he used.

Okay, well I saw that video a long long time ago.

[IcarusAngel]

Yes, I agree there is no comparison between them and Russell. Russell was anti-establishment and like to tweak the establishment's nose, including the liberal and philosophical establishment.

I was making the point against the "anti-youth" comments of many conservatives.

I would prefer it if liberals divided themselves up into "issues" (like favoring the CTBT, for example) and then advocating for it, instead of created one vague "we" group. But there wasn't anything to shocking about the issues they were talking about (poverty, corporate control, the environment, etc.).

[cb9's_unity]

Okay, well I say that video a long long time ago.

Glenn Beck has a habit of taking obscure things that happened a long long time ago and using them in his show. So he's usually to blame when old and obscure material starts showing up en mass the week after he aired it.

My apologies if it was an honest coincidence. However i've been getting tired of the Beck controlled conservative hive-mind that's been making itself apparent everywhere lately.

[IcarusAngel]

Half of them are probably creating alternative accounts to as the comments are like a broken record, with different user names.

I don't know what this "we" movement has in store for me, but what Glenn Beck has planned is even worse.

[Skooma Addict]

Yes, I agree there is no comparison between them and Russell. Russell was anti-establishment and like to tweak the establishment's nose, including the liberal and philosophical establishment.

I was making the point against the "anti-youth" comments of many conservatives.

I would prefer it if liberals divided themselves up into "issues" (like favoring the CTBT, for example) and then advocating for it, instead of created one vague "we" group. But there wasn't anything to shocking about the issues they were talking about (poverty, corporate control, the environment, etc.).

Even though I disagree with them, I don't have a problem with the typical person who wants to enact higher minimum wage, "better education", and all the other stuff the Generation We people advocated in that video. I do have a personal problem with the specific subculture that the typical Generation WEner is a part of however. The upper/middle class totally uninformed progressive who thinks he is some enlightened angel who will tell us all how to live proper lives.


Glenn Beck has a habit of taking obscure things that happened a long long time ago and using them in his show. So he's usually to blame when old and obscure material starts showing up en mass the week after he aired it.

My apologies if it was an honest coincidence. However i've been getting tired of the Beck controlled conservative hive-mind that's been making itself apparent everywhere lately.

Yea, what is up with that? When did he get so popular? When he moved to Fox probably. One thing I noticed about him is that he always looks like he is about to break down and cry, which is pretty funny.

[cb9's_unity]

Back on topic. Its no coincidence that when the government isn't there to protect it, 'intellectual property' crumbles. Most people have no ingrained respect for property rights and thus steal songs and movies instead of buying them. I think it is very much analogous to what would happen to more traditional private property rights if the government no longer protected them.

[Havet]

... and thus steal songs and movies instead of buying them.

Theft presupposes depriving the original owner of the use of his property. Obviously this is not the case with IP, because it is infinitely reproduceable.

[cb9's_unity]

Theft presupposes depriving the original owner of the use of his property. Obviously this is not the case with IP, because it is infinitely reproduceable.

IP constitutes ownership under the law. But would you be happy if I used 'violated' intellectual property? Either way, when the government lacks the ability to enforce property rights they essentially become meaningless.

[Raúl Duke]

Even though I disagree with them, I don't have a problem with the typical person who wants to enact higher minimum wage, "better education", and all the other stuff the Generation We people advocated in that video. I do have a personal problem with the specific subculture that the typical Generation WEner is a part of however. The upper/middle class totally uninformed progressive who thinks he is some enlightened angel who will tell us all how to live proper lives.If you put it this way, I wouldn't mind seeing a thread discussing "uninformed progressives." Those who may somewhat accurately see the problem but not know the cause nor have a better solution besides "voting the right person." (Which is quite naive, but than again I come from an island with a set of experience that would normally should make any person distrustful of any politicians/etc. Perhaps the day people in mass, and not exactly the usual activists, march to Washington/etc against some reactionary bill and see congressmen act like the people are invisible on C-Span than perhaps the Americans would feel similarly to how I feel about politicians.)
They're probably more numerous than libertarians anyway

[Havet]

But would you be happy if I used 'violated' intellectual property?

Yeah, but it's not a major issue. But it's important to be concise and objective with one's words.


Either way, when the government lacks the ability to enforce property rights they essentially become meaningless.

Well how would you explain the Somalia case? They have developed a sort of common law, which derives from their cultural Xeer law, which protects property rights.

[cb9's_unity]

Well how would you explain the Somalia case? They have developed a sort of common law, which derives from their cultural Xeer law, which protects property rights.

I guess I'll have to do some more research into it. Though a structure still apparently exists to protect private property within Xeer.

Do you think the old and unique cultural tradition of Somalia that has allowed for would Xeer would likely be spontaneously adopted by other nations in a situation where the government was suddenly taken away? Once government disappears would society form a system of judges, jury's, attorney's, etc. to protect private property? It seems to me that a perfect set of circumstances has formed to create an exception to the rule. If you have any information of a system like Xeer that has existed at any other place at any other time in history I'd definitely like to go through it.

So i guess the lack of respect for DRM rights speaks to the relation of government and property rights every place in the world besides the horn of Africa.

[John_Jordan]

Do you think the old and unique cultural tradition of Somalia that has allowed for would Xeer would likely be spontaneously adopted by other nations in a situation where the government was suddenly taken away? Once government disappears would society form a system of judges, jury's, attorney's, etc. to protect private property? It seems to me that a perfect set of circumstances has formed to create an exception to the rule. If you have any information of a system like Xeer that has existed at any other place at any other time in history I'd definitely like to go through it.


In situations where the government was suddenly taken away, there is absolutely no reason to assume that private property would go with it completely. Many places, society would indeed form a system if judges, juries, etc, in order to protect private property.

Of course, some places won't. You'll see all sorts of things pop up.

That's just the way things go when not everybody agrees with each other.

[cb9's_unity]

In situations where the government was suddenly taken away, there is absolutely no reason to assume that private property would go with it completely. Many places, society would indeed form a system if judges, juries, etc, in order to protect private property.

Of course, some places won't. You'll see all sorts of things pop up.

That's just the way things go when not everybody agrees with each other.

A system would pop up, a system where property owners employed private police forces or army's to protect their property. That or bands would unite together in order to steal other peoples property.

Its not a surprise that modern police forces didn't really start to pop up until capitalism was created and the minority of property owners had to be protected from the propertyless majority. Under feudalism peasants entered a contract with the state in order to protect their property.

[Havet]

I guess I'll have to do some more research into it. Though a structure still apparently exists to protect private property within Xeer.

Well, there's several structures. The Xeer law is by no means a good measure. It is deeply connected with religious beliefs, which means women get stoned to death by the most trivial of things (by western's standards).

Not to mention all the warlords and fighting still going on. But some zones have gone peaceful and property contracts are held through intersubjective consensus (ie: there are no private protection agencies like Ancaps theorize, but the general population agrees on these rules and "elects" judges who "compete" on how to best interpret the popular will.)


Do you think the old and unique cultural tradition of Somalia that has allowed for would Xeer would likely be spontaneously adopted by other nations in a situation where the government was suddenly taken away? Once government disappears would society form a system of judges, jury's, attorney's, etc. to protect private property? It seems to me that a perfect set of circumstances has formed to create an exception to the rule. If you have any information of a system like Xeer that has existed at any other place at any other time in history I'd definitely like to go through it.

I think we would see a lot of cases like Somalia. In the USA it would probably be a more peaceful place than in Somalia (after all, the USA, internally, hasnt had much military conflict for, at least, 145 years).

The more likely scenario is that different systems will pop up in different places.


So i guess the lack of respect for DRM rights speaks to the relation of government and property rights every place in the world besides the horn of Africa.

I think the lack of respect for DRM rights speaks only to IP, not other forms of property. You don't see as much frequency in lack of respect for other types of property.

[John_Jordan]

A system would pop up, a system where property owners employed private police forces or army's to protect their property. That or bands would unite together in order to steal other peoples property.

Its not a surprise that modern police forces didn't really start to pop up until capitalism was created and the minority of property owners had to be protected from the propertyless majority. Under feudalism peasants entered a contract with the state in order to protect their property.


I don't know what your point is.

[CartCollector]

I think it is very much analogous to what would happen to more traditional private property rights if the government no longer protected them.

Well you do have to remember that large amounts of data (like HD video) nowadays can be reproduced a nearly infinite amount of times quickly and cheaply and stored with near perfect accuracy. This wasn't true until very recently. And unfortunately, this is not true for physical goods: transporting goods, which are much heavier than mere electrons, is an expensive process, not to mention that it's impossible to easily reproduce most goods (the exception being plants and animals, and even then you need other materials (food, water, etc) to keep them alive and reproducing). It would be a great thing if it were possible to easily reproduce physical goods, though, but until then the economy needs to operate on the basis that there is a scarcity of goods.

[cb9's_unity]

I don't know what your point is.

There is a claim among the right-wing that government is the force that violates private property rights. My point is that if the state was taken away private property owners would have to use massive force to protect their property. The state constantly changes itself in order to serve the needs of private property and protect it. When the state disappears one doesn't have the 'right' to property but instead the challenge of defending it.

My whole point in this thread is to observe how private property rights are dependent on the state.

Hayenmill, you seem to either be contradicting yourself or I just don't understand what your saying. What is Xeer laws significance in analyzing private property's relation to the state? Is it anything more than a bizarre anomaly that apparently hasn't been repeated around the world.

[CartCollector]

OK a lot of the people here seem to be against copyrights. But here's the problem. There is only a finite amount of labor to go around. How can artists receive payment for their labor without creating artificial scarcity through copyrights? Using copyrights allows the cost of art production to be spread across many consumers: the amount of consumers that will purchase a reproduction of the art is estimated and used to set the price of the reproduction so that the costs of producing the art can be offset by sales.

[John_Jordan]

There is a claim among the right-wing that government is the force that violates private property rights. My point is that if the state was taken away private property owners would have to use massive force to protect their property. The state constantly changes itself in order to serve the needs of private property and protect it. When the state disappears one doesn't have the 'right' to property but instead the challenge of defending it.

Okay. I'll pretty much agree with you here.


My whole point in this thread is to observe how private property rights are dependent on the state.

And disagree here. Sure, one will have to defend one's private property if one actually believed in private property. But one would have to defend the rights of the workers if one believed in the worker's struggle, upon the collapse of the state. Or the "right" not to get raped, or the right to avoid torture, and other such things. "Private property" isn't special in this regard, and so it's not shown that private property is dependent on the state.

People in general are not going to fall into a state of agreement on things like private property if the state fell away.

[The Idler]

OK a lot of the people here seem to be against copyrights. But here's the problem. There is only a finite amount of labor to go around. How can artists receive payment for their labor without creating artificial scarcity through copyrights? Using copyrights allows the cost of art production to be spread across many consumers: the amount of consumers that will purchase a reproduction of the art is estimated and used to set the price of the reproduction so that the costs of producing the art can be offset by sales.
By charging for tickets to their gigs, movies, plays, musicals, book talks, readings etc. In society without copyright, I think people would still like to buy printed books from the author even if they could get free electronic copies. I think we're a way off bootlegging printed books, but then again China do it with Harry Potter books.