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Dimentio
9th March 2010, 19:36
I do not think that class struggle is possible to understand without understanding class collaborationism. While class struggle is existent throughout all times, the same could be said to be true of class collaborationism.

If we assumed that the only force which kept the population in check was violence or the threat of violence, we would be able to observe constant resentment and hatred against the ruling class. I do not say that such relationships do not exist. They have existed in history, notable examples being the relation between the Anglosaxons and the Normans during the high middle ages, as well as the relationship between Israelis and Palestinians today. Those both cases illuminate a relationship where the ruled subject cannot accept the legitimacy of a ruling class and the rulers have to resort to naked violence in order to keep power.

Class tensions also tend to increase during conditions when the society is under pressure from external or internal changes, which could be foreign invasions, natural disasters or technological transformations of the infrastructure and the means of production.

What I mean with class-collaborationism in this thread is not the act of scabbing on other workers, or report one another to the police or the fascists, but rather the everyday acceptance of the established order which we could observe in people. People are accepting repressive conditions which are imposed on them as their individual responsibility or as fate.

The political establishment is most often seen as legitimate. That is not only the case of modern societies, but also of pre-industrial societies. For example, revolts in the Middle Ages tended to be reactionary, as the people often interpreted policies which were repressive as a situation where the evil advisors of the king had imposed reforms which were ending the idea of how a good feudal order should look like. Wat Tyler and Stenka Razin for example.

I would claim that a large aspect of the fact that class societies tend to emerge naturally under different forms, is that human beings are pack animals and tend to differentiate their roles inside the pack. Most human beings seem to be content in repressive situations as long they have got used to them, and look up to the ruling class and its institutions for guidance. Most people seem to not want to meddle in politics and just reach a state of personal safety or safety for what they perceive to be their closest group.

Die Neue Zeit
10th March 2010, 01:58
I'm pleasantly surprised you're starting very political threads nowadays. Welcome aboard! :)


Most human beings seem to be content in repressive situations as long they have got used to them, and look up to the ruling class and its institutions for guidance. Most people seem to not want to meddle in politics and just reach a state of personal safety or safety for what they perceive to be their closest group.

That isn't class collaborationism at all though (which is an action), but rather class conciliationism.

This is also the lack of awareness of one's rational self-interest.

Dimentio
10th March 2010, 09:09
Self-interest might be both result-maximising and risk-minimising. For example, you could invest your entire fortune in the stock-market, with the hope of doubling it. At the same time though, you could choose not to, because of the risk of losing everything you have.

It isn't hard to follow that peasants in for example 5th century western Europe who recently had freed themselves from Roman control suddenly were choosing to accept new, Germanic overlords, to help them protect themselves against other Germans as well as Romans and Huns, in return for their surplus. The peasants could have defended themselves, but that would have required more men in arms and thus less yields from the crops, which would have led to more starvation.

Fear of hunger or chaos is a powerful motivator to make people almost semi-voluntarily accept slavery.

Die Neue Zeit
10th March 2010, 14:04
I think "rational" refers to the optimal balance between result maximization and risk minimization. Doing things out of fear is almost always below the optimal balance.

On the other hand, when I made my posts about proletarian-not-necessarily-communist parties (PNNCs, go check 'em out), most workers might see that as their optimal balance, not risking everything upon a communist socioeconomic transformation.

Dimentio
10th March 2010, 14:34
I think "rational" refers to the optimal balance between result maximization and risk minimization. Doing things out of fear is almost always below the optimal balance.

On the other hand, when I made my posts about proletarian-not-necessarily-communist parties (PNNCs, go check 'em out), most workers might see that as their optimal balance, not risking everything upon a communist socioeconomic transformation.

What really need to be done - aside of this discussion - is to increase the level of worker control over the means of production. That would make the advance of neo-liberalism to a direct threat for most workers.

As for fear. People have chosen elites which have established states in order to protect the vested interests of the elites. The reason that people have accepted these elites is probably not due to fear of the elites, but of fear of the chaos which they believe would ensue if the system is collapsing, as most people - no matter how poor - still have something to lose.

Die Neue Zeit
11th March 2010, 01:06
You know, this should be merged into comrade Rakunin's thread on class consciousness. ;)