What evidence is there to show that Stalin wanted to instigate a Nazi-UK/French war?

[Bankotsu]

The history of british attempts to instigate a war of mutual annihilation between Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia by appeasing Adolf Hitler to go east to destroy the USSR is well known to most left wingers.

But there is also a thesis that one of the motives behind Stalin's 1939 non-aggression pact with Nazi Germany was to push Germany west so as to instigate war in western europe so as to weaken the capitalist states and pave the way for bolshevik revolution.

I would like to know what is the evidence that exists that can support such an interpretation of events.

[danyboy27]

The history of british attempts to instigate a war of mutual annihilation between Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia by appeasing Adolf Hitler to go east to destroy the USSR is well known to most left wingers.

But there is also a thesis that one of the motives behind Stalin's 1939 non-aggression pact with Nazi Germany was to push Germany west so as to instigate war in western europe so as to weaken the capitalist states and pave the way for bolshevik revolution.

I would like to know what is the evidence that exists that can support such an interpretation of events.
the non-agression pact was necessary for the soviet union to re-organize and re-equip their armed forces, i doubt it had something to do with russia trying to push the german against the brittish. Even tho the russian forces had a superior number of divisions, their where in a process of organisation and modernisation, this pact gave to the russian a momentum to equip themselves...Until barbarossa blew up in their faces.

The german had a possibility after the dunquerque evacuation to invade england, but beccause the invasion plan wasnt prepared in advance and the force of the RAF, operation sea lion was scrapped.

And beside, After Dunkerke Hitler tried to make peace with england several times.

Gaining their vital space to the east was for the nazi more important than going at war with england.

invading russia fitted their racist, expensionist ideology, invading the brittish? not so much.

[Dimentio]

Stalin did actually not think that Hitler would invade the Soviet Union as long as Germany was tied up on the western front. I think Stalin actually did talk with members of the Soviet government about the prospects of the Germans failing to penetrate the Maginot line, leading to another frontline war in the west which could lead to revolutions in both Germany and France.

That was a huge mistake by him. After all, the Blitzkrieg doctrine had been developed in the Soviet Union and exported to Germany after the Rapallo Treaty (1926-1933). That doctrine was directly constructed to avoid static warfare, and the Germans did a tremendous work in improving on it.

Despite that, Stalin had no reason to guess that Hitler would try to invade the Soviet Union in 1941, with the war in the west still unresolved. He worked from the assumption that he was dealing with a rational leader and not a raging fanatic.

[danyboy27]

Stalin did actually not think that Hitler would invade the Soviet Union as long as Germany was tied up on the western front. I think Stalin actually did talk with members of the Soviet government about the prospects of the Germans failing to penetrate the Maginot line, leading to another frontline war in the west which could lead to revolutions in both Germany and France.

That was a huge mistake by him. After all, the Blitzkrieg doctrine had been developed in the Soviet Union and exported to Germany after the Rapallo Treaty (1926-1933). That doctrine was directly constructed to avoid static warfare, and the Germans did a tremendous work in improving on it.

Despite that, Stalin had no reason to guess that Hitler would try to invade the Soviet Union in 1941, with the war in the west still unresolved. He worked from the assumption that he was dealing with a rational leader and not a raging fanatic.
i think its a bit presomptuous to say that the russian developed the blitzkrieg, the brits claimed that they had invented the principle has well.

But at the end, Erich von meinstein and Gudarian where the firsts to promote blizkrieg like operations and to fully implement them on the theater of operation.

the russian did organized infultration operation and probably gave that knowledge to some german officiers, but at the end, the one that have been able to fully implement it for the first them where the german.

[Dave B]

there is some primary source material available below;

Nazi-Soviet Relations 1939-1941

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/subject_menus/nazsov.asp

[Dimentio]

i think its a bit presomptuous to say that the russian developed the blitzkrieg, the brits claimed that they had invented the principle has well.

But at the end, Erich von meinstein and Gudarian where the firsts to promote blizkrieg like operations and to fully implement them on the theater of operation.

the russian did organized infultration operation and probably gave that knowledge to some german officiers, but at the end, the one that have been able to fully implement it for the first them where the german.

It is actually true that the first general who proposed the idea of creating armoured wedges was a British general in the 1920's.

[Bankotsu]

Here is a book propagating the idea that Stalin wanted to instigate a war between Germany and France/UK.

Chief Culprit: Stalin's Grand Design to Start World War II
by Viktor Suvorov

http://www.amazon.com/Chief-Culprit-Stalins-Design-Jacket/dp/1591148383

The main problem with these books pushing these views is the complete lack of documentary evidence to support any of their arguments.

Viktor Suvorov
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Suvorov

[Dimentio]

Suvorov is actually more of a literary opportunist than anyone with insight. He claims that Soviet Russia planned to invade Germany in 1942, and that was why Hitler attacked in 1941, before the Russians would be able to change their "defensive weapons" into "offensive weapons"... :confused:

Since when has anyone heard about "defensive" and "offensive" rifles?

[danyboy27]

Suvorov is actually more of a literary opportunist than anyone with insight. He claims that Soviet Russia planned to invade Germany in 1942, and that was why Hitler attacked in 1941, before the Russians would be able to change their "defensive weapons" into "offensive weapons"... :confused:

Since when has anyone heard about "defensive" and "offensive" rifles?
Even tho we cant really prove it, i think its bullshit.
Its was in mein kaumpf, the german people must secure a vital space to the east to assure its prosperity.

It was written in the star that hitler was going after the Soviet Union.
Maybe Stalin and his officiers should have read Mein kaumpf to realize that.

has for offensive and defensive Weapons, i think he might refers to the caliber of certain artillery, the number of attack plane and the number of armored divisions.

An infantry division that is not equipped with heavy artillery and machinegun is mainly a defensive force.

Equipping an armed force for an offensive dosnt mean its gonna attack tho, look at the current german army, they probably have the most modern, up to date equipement avaliable in the world.

[danyboy27]

It is actually true that the first general who proposed the idea of creating armoured wedges was a British general in the 1920's.

but Blitzkrieg is way more than just armored wedges.
Without close air support and motorised infantry, concepts put foward by meinstein and gudérian, a blitzkrieg isnt a blitzkrieg.

That why the soviet Union lost so many tanks during ww2, the lack of a good combined force of infantry, tank and planes, the people who wanted to put foward those concept where executed by the purges on the early day of the war.

[Dr Mindbender]

Stalin didnt want socialism beyond the soviet union. In the 1928 german election the communists would have won through a coalition but since they needed the sanction of Moscow which stalin refused to grant they lost.

Stalin could have pushed for a socialist germany without firing a bullet.

[Comrade Gwydion]

@Dr Mindbender.
Or what to think of Spain? In the civil war, there was much revolutionairy spirit on the left side of the war, but Stalin told them to stop it, 'cause he didn't want to scare France right into the arms of hitler.

In all honesty, Stalin was a RealPolitiker, not an ideological driven man.
Claims that Stalin wanted WWII to happen... mwah, don't think so. He could, however, have known that Hitler was going to attack Russia. He had been warned both by his own spies and by churchill of all persons.

[MortyMingledon]

As much as we on this forum all like to imagine that Stalin's expansion of the Soviet Union was for the benefit of communism, most of Stalin's actions leading up to the Second World War (invasion of Poland, Finland etc.) are colonial and oppressive. The Molotov-Ribbentrop pact was more of an oppurtunistic attempt at increasing the power of the USSR rather than the a real attempt at securing communism from the fascist terror, or weakening the capitalist powers to destabilize them for a revolution. Stalin is a disgrace to the ideals of socialism.