The 'Body Count' of Communism

[The Vegan Marxist]

I just recently got done talking to this vastly illogical youtuber, well I got done but s/he apparently wanted to still flap their mouth with their Glenn Beck education, and s/he ended up pulling out the 'body count' of Communism to help support their theory that Communism is evil. Of course, I'm sure all of us has bumped into one of these people. And so, despite its illogical 'statistics', why not just battle against it with these two videos which point out the body count of capitalism:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53BaZAGqj9U

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqt7Tql_fvA&feature=related

[SocialismOrBarbarism]

These videos are horrible. 12 million Americans starved during the great depression? Pol Pot killed 7 million people? Uh, what?

[Little Bobby Hutton]

Thank you Brother,good information like this is hard for a lot of the working class to come across, propogandise and keep on raising awareness Comrade.

[Q]

Good video's! Why does it use 9/11 as a starting point to count deaths by starvation though? (all the way in the end). 30 000 children die a day due to starvation, for decades already. This alone adds up to hundreds of millions in the past century.

[Ravachol]

The 'body count' of Communism would be exactly 0, seeing as communism has never existed anywhere. If anything, that would be State-Socialism.
Also, anyone who takes the 'black book of communism' serious is not only politically backwards, but also adheres to scientific procedures fit for sea cucumbers.

[Q]

These videos are horrible. 12 million Americans starved during the great depression? Pol Pot killed 7 million people? Uh, what?

Yeah, I would like to see some sources on that too.

[Belisarius]

the general idea is good, but i have my doubts with some statistics and i don't think any capitalist will accept nazi-inflicted deaths or pol pot on his account.

[Q]

the general idea is good, but i have my doubts with some statistics and i don't think any capitalist will accept nazi-inflicted deaths or pol pot on his account.

The nazi regime was evidently pro-capitalist and anti-communist, be it that the petty-bourgeoisie was in power, which the bourgeoisie tolerated.

Pol Pot is indeed somewhat murkier. I would like to see some reasoning around that as well.

[The Vegan Marxist]

The nazi regime was evidently pro-capitalist and anti-communist, be it that the petty-bourgeoisie was in power, which the bourgeoisie tolerated.

Pol Pot is indeed somewhat murkier. I would like to see some reasoning around that as well.

As would I, but this came from the Maoist Rebel so you'd have to ask him. The video was definitely useful, nonetheless.

[Red Commissar]

It is pointless to associate a regime's evil purely because of their ideology. When you begin doing that you have little credibility to actually argue things. Dictatorships around the world, not communism, are responsible for those deaths. I suppose this can hold true for capitalism.

This is why I avoid bothering with people on youtube or anything that allows comments. They're not the brightest of the bunch.

[AK]

So how exactly does feudal Russia constitute capitalism?

[Tifosi]

The best 'example' of the Capitalist death toll in my view is the one person die's every three seconds in Africa along. You hear about it every now and again but not on the same scale as you hear about 'Communism' death toll. This is a shocking thing to hear, it really get's inside you and makes you think why.

PS there never has been Communism so how can it have killed people?

[ArrowLance]

Saying 'there has never been communism' is a complete waste of time. You can not convince people that communist regimes were not communist; you can point out discrepancies from your ideological line and theirs.

Of course many records of 'communist' death tolls are fairly well researched and spot on, they just don't have any context. Of course that makes it about impossible to actually blame on communism, instead of the two just being around each other, but never mind that.

[Communist Theory]

The only body that matters to me is the gloriously preserved body of comrade LENIN!!!! :lol:

[Q]

The only body that matters to me is the gloriously preserved body of comrade LENIN!!!! :lol:

Creep.

[Little Bobby Hutton]

Under socialism rape, murder, absentee fathers, starvation, illiteracy, drug abuse, poverty are far less and Glenn beck and fox news know it, that is why they cant explore the truth they put out out of context comment by Ernesto saying black men spend money on liquor and are frivolous, so far the Americans are lapping the nonrhetoric up

[Communist Theory]

The 'body count' of Communism would be exactly 0, seeing as communism has never existed anywhere. If anything, that would be State-Socialism.
Also, anyone who takes the 'black book of communism' serious is not only politically backwards, but also adheres to scientific procedures fit for sea cucumbers.
Boo.

[Red Saxon]

Saying 'there has never been communism' is a complete waste of time.Logic says that proving the so called Communist states practiced very little socialist economic theory proves that they weren't actually Communist.

Too bad people in the states won't accept logic.

[ArrowLance]

Logic says that proving the so called Communist states practiced very little socialist economic theory proves that they weren't actually Communist.

Too bad people in the states won't accept logic.

Prove it, define what 'little socialist economic theory' means and then also what could have been done to make it more effective, and that what was done was grossly inadequate.

You can't just use 'logic' to 'disprove' a 'communist state'. Get off your pseudo-intellectual horse.

[Mumbles]

Excellent videos. Other than a couple of the points brought up by others.

Although I don't think many USian's are willing to accept the fact that countries other than the US are "truly capitalist", because, you know, only the US can be perfect :rolleyes:

Also, what were the US economic "influences" in other countries? Like which economic things did they force upon them?

[Red Saxon]

Prove it, define what 'little socialist economic theory' means and then also what could have been done to make it more effective, and that what was done was grossly inadequate.

You can't just use 'logic' to 'disprove' a 'communist state'. Get off your pseudo-intellectual horse.In Trotskyist terms, the Soviet Union was an example of bureaucratic collectivism. Basically the economy and state are controlled by the bureaucracy (the CPSU) rather than the workers. Doesn't sound too much like the ideal workers state does it?

Also, there are numerous cases of corruption in regards to the Soviet government. The CPSU became the Bourgeoisie they claimed to fight against. (They were allowed to travel outside the union, get better cars, ect)

[cb9's_unity]

Saying 'there has never been communism' is a complete waste of time. You can not convince people that communist regimes were not communist; you can point out discrepancies from your ideological line and theirs.

Of course many records of 'communist' death tolls are fairly well researched and spot on, they just don't have any context. Of course that makes it about impossible to actually blame on communism, instead of the two just being around each other, but never mind that.

We shouldn't have to prove that the USSR wasn't communist, the capitalists have to prove that it was. Its name may imply that it was socialist or communist, but it is well known that the name of an organization is often used to mask its real agenda.

Certain criteria such as being classless or stateless need to be met before one can call the community communist. It also must be proven that the working class itself held control of power democratically. If either a capitalist or a socialist can prove that those criteria were met, in say the USSR, then one can consider a country like the USSR communist and go on to analyze its 'body count'.

We must point out to people that it is on them to first prove a country is communist. Unfortunately, this is rarely how it happens.

[CartCollector]

Also, what were the US economic "influences" in other countries? Like which economic things did they force upon them?Look up Pinochet and how he came to power.


We shouldn't have to prove that the USSR wasn't communist, the capitalists have to prove that it was. Its name may imply that it was socialist or communist, but it is well known that the name of an organization is often used to mask its real agenda.
If anyone tries to say "yeah the USSR and China are really communist!" tell them "Like North Korea is democratic." If they don't get it, explain to them that the full name of North Korea is the Democratic People's Republic of Korea. That should explain to them what you mean.

[ArrowLance]

Well you are getting off on the wrong foot since your definitions of communist differ.

And no, it doesn't sound like an ideal workers state. But you know what, have you made an ideal workers state? Do you think you can? Get real, it's hard to make an ideal workers state in less than ideal circumstances.

[scarletghoul]

Great videos but yeah there are a few things wrong. The Pol Pot thing is especially ridiculous. I mean, the population of Cambodia in 1975 was about 7 million..
And I also don't see how the Khmer Rouge regime can be considered capitalist. I can see why people say they werent proper communists, but to say they were capitalist is just crazy, considering they abolished money.

There's also a few things that they didnt mention that they should have, like the restoration of capitalism in eastern europe, all those African wars, non-Jewish holocaust deaths, the shitloads of british imperial atrocities in zimbabwe china australia etc, etc

[Ravachol]

Boo.

Boo because? I surely hope no-one here, Anti-revisionists included the former Soviet Union was communist? It is impossible for a state to be communist as communism is defined as a stateless, classless model of social organisation. Whether the SU was socialist or not is another discussion.

[ArrowLance]

Boo because? I surely hope no-one here, Anti-revisionists included the former Soviet Union was communist? It is impossible for a state to be communist as communism is defined as a stateless, classless model of social organisation. Whether the SU was socialist or not is another discussion.

You don't understand the term 'communist state' then. That is, a state that is working towards communism, I would think almost exclusively by advancing the progression of socialism and democracy.

[Robespierre2.0]

I think this whole method of arguing by body count is BULLSHIT and people should stop doing it.

I don't deny that the socialist and pseudo-socialist countries of the 20th century persecuted political dissidents. I don't deny that they had limits on free speech. I don't deny that sometimes party bureaucrats abused their power at the expense of the common worker. I don't deny that they killed people.
However, the claim that these characteristics apply only to 'totalitarian' countries is absolute nonsense. In fact, I'd say even by the textbook definition, liberal capitalism is totalitarian in its own way.
When these things happen in the capitalist west, we treat them as exceptions to the rule. We'll go through all sorts of lengths to blame problems on the actions of 'corrupt individuals' who pervert the 'lofty ideals the country is founded upon', but never the actual system itself, which, because of the profit motive, I would argue intrinsically fosters corruption.
Likewise, in the case of the socialist experiments, we treat this corruption and violent excess as intrinsic to the system, and whenever someone suggests that *gasp* perhaps Stalin was well aware that others in the party were abusing their power and took measures to counter this, they are immediately labeled a 'totalitarian thug'.

Look at American history. Slavery, the genocide of the native americans, the violent repression of the civil rights movement, hundreds of pointless bloodbaths waged in the name of profit, and yet people say, "Let's give capitalism a pass. These things were the result of bad people in the generation before us, but we know better now". And they keep saying the same thing, while finding a new scapegoat to torment and economically exploit.

Seriously, what the fuck? Does anyone else see the double standard here?
The fact is, states exist, and states, by nature, do nasty things. Socialist states have, as their ultimate goal, the unity of all working people regardless of race, gender, or religion. Capitalist states have nothing but the preservation of capitalist business interests as their own goal.
Whenever history is discussed, capitalism can completely fuck everyone's lives up and shit the bed multiple times, but the second socialism makes one mistake, it's like the media holds a magnifying glass to it and says, "SEE?! LOOK! I TOLD YOU THOSE COMMIES CAN'T DO ANYTHING RIGHT!!"

[Cooler Reds Will Prevail]

I watched half the first video and I got really bored, plus the numbers seem WAY off. It has the Khmer Rouge for 2 million, then Pol Pot for 7 million, and we can't even realistically consider them capitalist.

I have an easy answer: 6 million children under age 5 (http://www.prlog.org/10416136-six-million-preventable-child-deaths-the-biggest-child-rights-violationa-silent-emergency.html) die annually in capitalist societies from preventable illness, malnutrition or starvation. JUST CHILDREN.

According to the UN (http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=33880), "Non-communicable diseases currently account for 35 million deaths annually worldwide out of 58.7 million, the majority of them in low and middle-income countries (28.1 million). In developing countries alone, an estimated 8 million such deaths per year are premature, that is below 60 years of age, and could potentially be prevented."

In total, according to starvation.net (http://www.starvation.net/), almost 13 million people die annually from starvation, and 18 million annually when you include water-borne illness and AIDS. Their UN based figure, which I have yet to look up directly, shows that, between 1968 and 2003, there were 300 million deaths worldwide due to starvation. Now, considering that Soviet collectivization and the Chinese famine were both before 1968, basically the entirety of this 300 million was in capitalist countries.

This, of course, is in addition to the wars, destruction of the environment, and all other shit that causes preventable deaths in capitalism.

[Cooler Reds Will Prevail]

In fact, according to this 2001 report from the UN, there are 36 million preventable deaths annually resulting from starvation and malnutrition.

http://hei.unige.ch/~clapham/hrdoc/docs/foodrep2001.pdf