Further reading about Jesus (con-artist, revolutionary or madman?)

[R_P_A_S]

I been searching for more stories about Jesus. I'm not really interest on the debate if he did exist or not.(but I welcome those too) I'm more into the theories that suggest that he was a man who was one of first to ever have his type of ideas and express them to others, for example he's strong stance against corruption and injustice. (some very close to socialist ideals)

Did he ever claim he was the son of god? OK so I also like to hear more stuff on how he was maybe kind of looney. All the miracles and what not.. perhaps he was a con artist? a "magician"?

Finally, A while ago I was watching something on the History Channel on how different regions of the middle east, from India to the coast of Africa all had similar stories or their own version of a man who could be "Jesus"

Any further reading that you guys can suggest will be appreciate it! thanks!

[Dave B]

There is a link into a really interesting and comprehensive site below written in an unusually objective, informed and honest way by a converted atheist.

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/NTcanon.html (http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/NTcanon.html)


You might want to move around the site that is quite extensive and the link I have given is just the one I have on file.

There is of course;

Works of Frederick Engels 1894 On the History of Early Christianity

http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1894/early-christianity/index.htm (http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1894/early-christianity/index.htm)

and there is a book to the same effect by Kauksky.

You can of course reject JC as a historical figure or the contemporary nature of christianity or not but if you reject it you in all fairness have to reject a load of other historical figures as well.

Like Boudicca formerly known as Boadicea as the first account of her was from Tacitus and that was second hand. However Tacitus records the existance of Christianity first hand. And I think the oldest copy of Tacitus itself dates from several hundred years after he is supposed to have existed himself.



Fragments of the gospels exist allegedly dating from second century eg I think there is a Mark one in Ireland and a Manchester one of John.

There is a complete collection of the Gospels reliably dated to circa 380 called codex sinaticus.



There are only three or four original copies of Pilgrims Progress which was a mass produced book from only a few hundred years ago.

I think the ‘did Jesus claim to be the son of god’ is a hotly contested one that revolves around definitions, ‘miss translations’ and ‘Greek’.


The standard and best throw around one is probably;

Mark 14:61-62 (New International Version - UK)


61 But Jesus remained silent and gave no answer. Again the high priest asked him, Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?
62 I am, said Jesus. And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.


I actually looked into the whole thing in some detail and find it all quite fascinating and like to think of myself as a bit of an expert on it.


Like the bit of on the fluffed Democritus ( the first chemist and subject of Karl’s doctrinal thesis) joke in John chapter 4 and the obvious mistranslation of rope for camel in the eye of the needle stuff.


....

[Publius]

A lot this sort of stuff is trash.

I warn you because there are a lot of "skeptics" around peddling nonsense about Jesus that has no basis in history.

"Jesus", in some form like what we see in the Gospels, almost certainly existed.

EDIT: Carrier is one of the better scholars to look at.