Peruvian Communist Party and Chairman Gonzalo

[ReVoLuTiOnArY-BrOtHeR]

Comrades, what do you think about the PCP and Chairman Gonzalo?

[The Vegan Marxist]

Comrades, what do you think about the PCP and Chairman Gonzalo?

I'm a supporter of the PCP to an extent, but a large extent at that. They were definitely the only ones that were willing to stand up against the corrupt Peruvian government. And, from the reports that I've seen given by people that I know in Peru, & I've got a fellow comrade that lives in Peru, they had the majority of peasants & working class on their side in Peru during when they were in full force. The only thing I feel they failed at was their ability to disconnect from their leader Chairman Gonzalo. Of course, I would love to see him freed, but the fact that they went downhill after he was captured just shows how too attached the group was to their leader.

When it comes to the accusations on them killing innocent people, the people they killed were hardly innocent. I forget the name of the group, but there were peasants that ended up getting trained by the Peruvian military that trained them to fight back against the Shining Path. They ended up leading an assault against the Shining Path & killed a good number of their members. And so, the PCP retaliated & killed members of the anti-rebel peasant group. This was a known attack that the PCP even admitted to waging. Though, when it comes to such information about how they went to people's houses & killed them or raped their women, I've remained highly skeptical about such, due to a couple reasons.

1) Women were the most important people of the Shining Path, for they saw them as their leading comrades towards their goal of communism.

2) Most of the articles written against the Shining Path that led such accusations against them were made by ex-Peruvian presidents, politicians, Peruvian military, & ex-military. So they weren't the type of people that one would trust back then, even now.

Now, it's also important to know that both Chairman Gonzalo & the Shining Path (the one that stayed true to the ideology) have asked for a peace accord towards the government, but even to this day the government has yet to agree. When Chairman Gonzalo got captured, not only did the group started falling apart somewhat, they also splitted into different factions. The ones that stayed true to the ideology, like I said above, are the ones asking for a peace accord. The other factions have become these violent revisionist rebel groups who, according to news reports, have led attacks in civilian areas.

It's best, if you have not watched it yet, to watch this documentary that was made soon before Chairman Gonzalo got captured. It shows exactly who the PCP were & what they stood for: http://marxistleninist.wordpress.com/2008/09/22/documentary-the-people-of-the-shining-path/

UPDATE: The anti-rebel group that was organized by the Peruvian military were called the Rondas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronda_Campesina).

[ReVoLuTiOnArY-BrOtHeR]

I'm a supporter of the PCP to an extent, but a large extent at that. They were definitely the only ones that were willing to stand up against the corrupt Peruvian government. And, from the reports that I've seen given by people that I know in Peru, & I've got a fellow comrade that lives in Peru, they had the majority of peasants & working class on their side in Peru during when they were in full force. The only thing I feel they failed at was their ability to disconnect from their leader Chairman Gonzalo. Of course, I would love to see him freed, but the fact that they went downhill after he was captured just shows how too attached the group was to their leader.

When it comes to the accusations on them killing innocent people, the people they killed were hardly innocent. I forget the name of the group, but there were peasants that ended up getting trained by the Peruvian military that trained them to fight back against the Shining Path. They ended up leading an assault against the Shining Path & killed a good number of their members. And so, the PCP retaliated & killed members of the anti-rebel peasant group. This was a known attack that the PCP even admitted to waging. Though, when it comes to such information about how they went to people's houses & killed them or raped their women, I've remained highly skeptical about such, due to a couple reasons.

1) Women were the most important people of the Shining Path, for they saw them as their leading comrades towards their goal of communism.

2) Most of the articles written against the Shining Path that led such accusations against them were made by ex-Peruvian presidents, politicians, Peruvian military, & ex-military. So they weren't the type of people that one would trust back then, even now.

Now, it's also important to know that both Chairman Gonzalo & the Shining Path (the one that stayed true to the ideology) have asked for a peace accord towards the government, but even to this day the government has yet to agree. When Chairman Gonzalo got captured, not only did the group started falling apart somewhat, they also splitted into different factions. The ones that stayed true to the ideology, like I said above, are the ones asking for a peace accord. The other factions have become these violent revisionist rebel groups who, according to news reports, have led attacks in civilian areas.

It's best, if you have not watched it yet, to watch this documentary that was made soon before Chairman Gonzalo got captured. It shows exactly who the PCP were & what they stood for: http://marxistleninist.wordpress.com/2008/09/22/documentary-the-people-of-the-shining-path/

I totally agree with you comrade. The faction that has stayed true to the ideological principles are the ones struggling for a political solution. The people's war was of political nature, thus we need a political solution, not persecuting people for their ideas or locking up brothers and sisters. In addition to his we also need a national reconciliation and a general amnesty. If you don't understand let me know comrade.

Concerning your comment about the attachment between the party and the leadership, it wasn't that the party was "attached" but they had admiration for the Chairman. As you know brother, as an educated comrade, you must realize that history has shown us that in every revolutionary process a leadership is created.

Now that the whole leadership of the PCP has been captured, the party is in the process of creating a new leadership. Chairman Gonzalo has said that his time is up but will stay faithful to maoism.

[The Vegan Marxist]

I totally agree with you comrade. The faction that has stayed true to the ideological principles are the ones struggling for a political solution. The people's war was of political nature, thus we need a political solution, not persecuting people for their ideas or locking up brothers and sisters. In addition to his we also need a national reconciliation and a general amnesty. If you don't understand let me know comrade.

Concerning your comment about the attachment between the party and the leadership, it wasn't that the party was "attached" but they had admiration for the Chairman. As you know brother, as an educated comrade, you must realize that history has shown us that in every revolutionary process a leadership is created.

Now that the whole leadership of the PCP has been captured, the party is in the process of creating a new leadership. Chairman Gonzalo has said that his time is up but will stay faithful to maoism.

There's a lot of things that went down over there that I feel needs to be spoken out about. Like the 300 comrades of the PCP that were killed in that prison. The amnesty of those still in prison is important as well. But yeah, if the group can rise up again, that would definitely be something I'd lend my support towards. Maoism is taking a huge rise lately - Nepal & India. If Peru can do the same, then that'll definitely be a sight.

[ReVoLuTiOnArY-BrOtHeR]

There's a lot of things that went down over there that I feel needs to be spoken out about. Like the 300 comrades of the PCP that were killed in that prison. The amnesty of those still in prison is important as well. But yeah, if the group can rise up again, that would definitely be something I'd lend my support towards. Maoism is taking a huge rise lately - Nepal & India. If Peru can do the same, then that'll definitely be a sight.

Yes brother I see what your saying. Right now I don't know if your aware but the lawyer of Dr. Guzman, Alfredo Crespo is launching a party to run in the electoral process. The party is called the Movement for Amnesty and Fundamental Rights. There main goal is to democratize peruvian society. This doesn't Make Dr. Guzman a revisionist or traitor, we just have to admit that conditions have changed and that its not time for an armed struggle, but an ideological struggle. The people's war is still in process but the armed has been substituted with an ideological struggle.

[The Vegan Marxist]

Yes brother I see what your saying. Right now I don't know if your aware but the lawyer of Dr. Guzman, Alfredo Crespo is launching a party to run in the electoral process. The party is called the Movement for Amnesty and Fundamental Rights. There main goal is to democratize peruvian society. This doesn't Make Dr. Guzman a revisionist or traitor, we just have to admit that conditions have changed and that its not time for an armed struggle, but an ideological struggle. The people's war is still in process but the armed has been substituted with an ideological struggle.

Nah, I haven't heard about this yet. I'll keep in touch with this now. Thanks for info. And yes, I couldn't agree more. Arms needs to stay down for a little while.

[ReVoLuTiOnArY-BrOtHeR]

Nah, I haven't heard about this yet. I'll keep in touch with this now. Thanks for info. And yes, I couldn't agree more. Arms needs to stay down for a little while.

Yes man, I'll sumbit the link in 5 minutes. Hold on real quick my brother.

[The Vegan Marxist]

Yes man, I'll sumbit the link in 5 minutes. Hold on real quick my brother.

Has there been any word from Comrade Artemio lately? Last I heard of him was that he was still leading 300 PCP rebels within the jungle region still, though have tried refraining from doing any attacks since the peace accord was asked of by Chairman Gonzalo.

[ReVoLuTiOnArY-BrOtHeR]

Well Comrade Artemio was locked up last I heard.

The following is the link of the "megaproceso" the trial against the PCP.
http://www.pagina-libre.org/mega/index.html

[The Vegan Marxist]

Well Comrade Artemio was locked up last I heard.

The following is the link of the "megaproceso" the trial against the PCP.
http://www.pagina-libre.org/mega/index.html

Thanks for the link, but yeah, according to this article in the Peruvian Times, which was last year, it says he's still leading rebels in the jungle: http://www.peruviantimes.com/lawyer-for-jailed-shining-path-founder-charged-with-%E2%80%9Capology-for-terrorism%E2%80%9D-over-book-announcement/173897

[ReVoLuTiOnArY-BrOtHeR]

Thanks for the link, but yeah, according to this article in the Peruvian Times, which was last year, it says he's still leading rebels in the jungle: http://www.peruviantimes.com/lawyer-for-jailed-shining-path-founder-charged-with-%E2%80%9Capology-for-terrorism%E2%80%9D-over-book-announcement/173897

I apologize then comrade. I was confused and thought you were referring to Comrade Alberto which is another leading official of the party that was locked up. As you see Comrade Artemio is also neglecting ideology and continuing armed struggle.

[ReVoLuTiOnArY-BrOtHeR]

I apologize again man, Comrade Artemio is not it is Comrades Victor and Raul that are continuing armed struggle. Too many names haha.

[The Vegan Marxist]

I apologize again man, Comrade Artemio is not it is Comrades Victor and Raul that are continuing armed struggle. Too many names haha.

Haha, yeah, I was about to say. Artemio has been trying to keep the rebels from doing any armed attacks.

http://i45.tinypic.com/2popc3q.jpg

[ReVoLuTiOnArY-BrOtHeR]

Haha, yeah, I was about to say. Artemio has been trying to keep the rebels from doing any armed attacks.

http://i45.tinypic.com/2popc3q.jpg

Yes, I am trying to find out if theres any support organizations for Chairman Gonzalo and the PCP here in the USA.

[black magick hustla]

The PCP were a bunch of boneheaded murderers. If someone had to compare all maoist groupings, the shining path would definitely be the worst.

[The Vegan Marxist]

The PCP were a bunch of boneheaded murderers. If someone had to compare all maoist groupings, the shining path would definitely be the worst.

You base these assertions from where exactly? All the articles posted against them by ex-military, military, presidents, etc. or do you get it all from wikipedia which does a fine job in propagandizing against the PCP? The same is done against the Nepalese Maoists & the Indian Maoists. Are you going to believe in those reports as well?

[red cat]

The PCP were a bunch of boneheaded murderers. If someone had to compare all maoist groupings, the shining path would definitely be the worst.

Long live the Shining Path and its correct line of peoples' war !

( And may they open a branch in Mexico soon ) ;)

[black magick hustla]

You base these assertions from where exactly? All the articles posted against them by ex-military, military, presidents, etc. or do you get it all from wikipedia which does a fine job in propagandizing against the PCP? The same is done against the Nepalese Maoists & the Indian Maoists. Are you going to believe in those reports as well?



In the face of reactionary military actions... we responded with a devastating action: Lucanamarca. Neither they nor we have forgotten it, to be sure, because they got an answer that they didn't imagine possible. More than 80 were annihilated, that is the truth. And we say openly that there were excesses, as was analyzed in 1983. But everything in life has two aspects. Our task was to deal a devastating blow in order to put them in check, to make them understand that it was not going to be so easy. On some occasions, like that one, it was the Central Leadership itself that planned the action and gave instructions. That's how it was. In that case, the principal thing is that we dealt them a devastating blow, and we checked them and they understood that they were dealing with a different kind of people's fighters, that we weren't the same as those they had fought before. This is what they understood. The excesses are the negative aspect... If we were to give the masses a lot of restrictions, requirements and prohibitions, it would mean that deep down we didn't want the waters to overflow. And what we needed was for the waters to overflow, to let the flood rage, because we know that when a river floods its banks it causes devastation, but then it returns to its riverbed.... [T]he main point was to make them understand that we were a hard nut to crack, and that we were ready for anything, anything.

Gonzalo, on the Lucanamarca massacre

[red cat]

Gonzalo, on the Lucanamarca massacre


May be the shining path should quit violence and watch the Peruvian masses being slaughtered instead. Only then will they be applauded by left communists.

[black magick hustla]

May be the shining path should quit violence and watch the Peruvian masses being slaughtered instead. Only then will they be applauded by left communists.

Much better than slaughtering the "peruvian masses" themselves.

[black magick hustla]

People don't realize that Lucanamarca was the liquidation of almost a complete village/hamlet. I am extremely skeptical that the 80 people murdered where Rondistas, including the women and children. :rolleyes: Yes, women and children, ive been trying to find sources for a defense of Lucanamarca, looking through maoist websites too and nobody denies that. What they do is trying to justify it as necessary, etc.

[red cat]

Much better than slaughtering the "peruvian masses" themselves.

Just like the naxals cannibalize on the Indian masses.

[Crux]

Sendiero Luminoso are a dead end and have caused untold harm to the worker's movement in peru, not only through their false tactics, but through their continues violent attack on the peasants, working class and social movements. They were effectively doing the job for the dictatorship while providing a convenient excuse for increased state repression. Thankfully they have been continuously marginalized since the early ninties suffering several splits. These days they only manage to shoot cops every now and then. Hopefully they will continue to fade into obscurity.

[The Vegan Marxist]

People don't realize that Lucanamarca was the liquidation of almost a complete village/hamlet. I am extremely skeptical that the 80 people murdered where Rondistas, including the women and children. :rolleyes: Yes, women and children, ive been trying to find sources for a defense of Lucanamarca, looking through maoist websites too and nobody denies that. What they do is trying to justify it as necessary, etc.

They attacked the village that was operated under the Rondistas, in which they had killed Shining Path members first. I've talked to some that were part of that led 'massacre' & from what I was told, there was a firefight that took place over there, & yes, women & children were killed, but not intentionally, but rather were victims of cross-fire & ricochets. In a time of revolutionary war, death to innocence is inevitable. Yes, they are sad that such had happen, but it was justified when the Rondistas came in & killed the members of the Shining Path. Let's also remember that a good number of the Rondistas had women as well, just like the Shining Path. Of course, the sexist corruption that took place in Peru was useful when it reported of women being killed by the Shining Path, for normal citizens of Peru would perceive women as mere innocent civilians, when of course they became rebels in both the Shining Path & the Rondistas.

[The Vegan Marxist]

Sendiero Luminoso are a dead end and have caused untold harm to the worker's movement in peru, not only through their false tactics, but through their continues violent attack on the peasants, working class and social movements. They were effectively doing the job for the dictatorship while providing a convenient excuse for increased state repression. Thankfully they have been continuously marginalized since the early ninties suffering several splits. These days they only manage to shoot cops every now and then. Hopefully they will continue to fade into obscurity.

And it's apparent that you didn't pay attention whatsoever to the earlier conversation about what's going on over there. The Shining Path had splitted up into different factions soon after Chairman Gonzalo was captured. Chairman Gonzalo & those still led by Comrade Artemio are asking for a peace accord with the Peruvian government, but of course the government keeps declining it. Those that moved away from the original ideology are revisionist violent rebels that are still leading an armed assault against the Peruvian State. They've been trying to disassociate away from those other factions, but of course the government is far too corrupt to even give Chairman Gonzalo the slightest hint of redeeming himself.

[Crux]

And it's apparent that you didn't pay attention whatsoever to the earlier conversation about what's going on over there. The Shining Path had splitted up into different factions soon after Chairman Gonzalo was captured. Chairman Gonzalo & those still led by Comrade Artemio are asking for a peace accord with the Peruvian government, but of course the government keeps declining it. Those that moved away from the original ideology are revisionist violent rebels that are still leading an armed assault against the Peruvian State. They've been trying to disassociate away from those other factions, but of course the government is far too corrupt to even give Chairman Gonzalo the slightest hint of redeeming himself.
I thought the official line was that all statements made by chairman Gonzalo from prison calling for cease fire were fabrications by the CIA?
This was what I was told by their swedish support group.

[The Vegan Marxist]

I thought the official line was that all statements made by chairman Gonzalo from prison calling for cease fire were fabrications by the CIA?
This was what I was told by their swedish support group.

Absolutely not. Chairman Gonzalo has outspokenly calling out for a peace accord towards the government, & Comrade Artemio is upholding such peace accord back in the jungle as he leads the rest of the 300 rebels that's stayed loyal to the original ideology. Alfredo Crespo, Chairman Gonzalo's attorney, has even tried distancing him from the off-branched factions that's formed out of the original Shining Path after Chairman Gonzalo was captured.

[SocialismOrBarbarism]

You seem to have a very selective reading when it comes to any group that presents itself as nominally "Marxist." From your own link we can read that these so-called anti-revisionist Marxist-Leninist-Maoist-Gonzaloists aren't the peace loving friends of the people that you make them out to be, because the same guy who says that the movement fractured into different groups also says that this particular group is still using the same terroristic methods that they're known for.

[The Vegan Marxist]

You seem to have a very selective reading when it comes to any group that presents itself as nominally "Marxist." From your own link we can read that these so-called anti-revisionist Marxist-Leninist-Maoist-Gonzaloists aren't the peace loving friends of the people that you make them out to be, because the same guy who says that the movement fractured into different groups also says that this particular group is still using the same terroristic methods that they're known for.

What are you talking about? If you're talking about the link of the 'Sendero Luminoso' then yeah, the video isn't the best one to look at, but it's used to show the march in the video & the equality between women towards the leadership of the Shining Path. I'm still trying to find the documentary of the original Sendero Luminoso on youtube so that could be the link. No luck so far though.

[ReVoLuTiOnArY-BrOtHeR]

Gonzalo, on the Lucanamarca massacre

Dude Chairman Gonzalo admits that there were excesses, i.e limitations and errors. I don't see why condem The PCP. In every war theres deaths.

P.S By the way if you din't know, the term "shining path" was implemented by the peruvian bourgeoisie to refer to the PCP. The official name is the Peruvian Communist Party.

[Crux]

Dude Chairman Gonzalo admits that there were excesses, i.e limitations and errors. I don't see why condem The PCP. In every war theres deaths.

P.S By the way if you din't know, the term "shining path" was implemented by the peruvian bourgeoisie to refer to the PCP. The official name is the Peruvian Communist Party.
Incidentally about ten, or more, other groups in Peru go by that name as well.

[ReVoLuTiOnArY-BrOtHeR]

Incidentally about ten, or more, other groups in Peru go by that name as well.

Well, to be real those other groups are are sell outs and don't have anything to offer for the peruvian masses.

[The Vegan Marxist]

Well, to be real those other groups are are sell outs and don't have anything to offer for the peruvian masses.

I agree. Ever since Chairman Gonzalo got captured, the factions that were implemented after the split went their own ways, with similar ideals towards the original PCP. The only ones that's stayed true to the ideology was Comrade Artemio & those that he's leading within the jungles.

[Crux]

I am sure the stalinists in PCP Patria Rojo would apply to you as well.
Sendiero are not the only left force in peru you know. As I may have mentioned in some other thread the most widely known and successful marxist in Peru is Hugo Blanco, peasant leader and a trotskyist.

[The Vegan Marxist]

I am sure the stalinists in PCP Patria Rojo would apply to you as well.
Sendiero are not the only left force in peru you know. As I may have mentioned in some other thread the most widely known and successful marxist in Peru is Hugo Blanco, peasant leader and a trotskyist.

What's so great about being a Trotskyist? I mean, I'm sure this Hugo Blanco guy is great & all, but why does being a 'Trotsky' mean you're the highlight of anyone else that is a Communist? Trotsky is known for his opposition against Stalin, in which, in my opinion, got a little too dogmatic. Sure, Stalin wasn't the best leader of all Communist leaders, but he sure as hell wasn't the 'Soviet Devil' like a lot of western propaganda likes to paint him as. And to be honest, Leon Trotsky, in my opinion, would've never brought the Soviet Union forward on anything if was to become the leader instead of Stalin.

[red cat]

And it's apparent that you didn't pay attention whatsoever to the earlier conversation about what's going on over there. The Shining Path had splitted up into different factions soon after Chairman Gonzalo was captured. Chairman Gonzalo & those still led by Comrade Artemio are asking for a peace accord with the Peruvian government, but of course the government keeps declining it. Those that moved away from the original ideology are revisionist violent rebels that are still leading an armed assault against the Peruvian State. They've been trying to disassociate away from those other factions, but of course the government is far too corrupt to even give Chairman Gonzalo the slightest hint of redeeming himself.

The PCP is continuing the PPW and has advanced significantly in recent years. It is wrong to call the militant branch revisionist. This (http://www.redsun.org/) is their website.

The peoples' war is not a water-tap that can be turned on and off at will. Once it has started, it is either completely crushed, or results in a revolution, with periods of relative peace in between. A detailed study of any third world country is required to deduce why no revolutionary movement is possible here without armed struggle.

The branch that is continuing the violent movement is considered as the real PCP by other big Maoist parties.

[ReVoLuTiOnArY-BrOtHeR]

What's so great about being a Trotskyist? I mean, I'm sure this Hugo Blanco guy is great & all, but why does being a 'Trotsky' mean you're the highlight of anyone else that is a Communist? Trotsky is known for his opposition against Stalin, in which, in my opinion, got a little too dogmatic. Sure, Stalin wasn't the best leader of all Communist leaders, but he sure as hell wasn't the 'Soviet Devil' like a lot of western propaganda likes to paint him as. And to be honest, Leon Trotsky, in my opinion, would've never brought the Soviet Union forward on anything if was to become the leader instead of Stalin.

Comrade, I agree with you and your statement. It looks like Mayakovsky is a dogmatic trotskyist. No wonder he has no clue about the Peruvian Communist Party.

[The Vegan Marxist]

The PCP is continuing the PPW and has advanced significantly in recent years. It is wrong to call the militant branch revisionist. This (http://www.redsun.org/) is their website.

The peoples' war is not a water-tap that can be turned on and off at will. Once it has started, it is either completely crushed, or results in a revolution, with periods of relative peace in between. A detailed study of any third world country is required to deduce why no revolutionary movement is possible here without armed struggle.

The branch that is continuing the violent movement is considered as the real PCP by other big Maoist parties.

But aren't they just harming the call of a peace accord led by Chairman Gonzalo & Comrade Artemio?

[red cat]

But aren't they just harming the call of a peace accord led by Chairman Gonzalo & Comrade Artemio?

I don't know what exactly what Gonzalo and Artemio are aiming for, but if it requires stopping the peoples' war altogether, and not a temporary ceasefire, then it should not be supported.

Have you looked at the articles on Gonzalo in the site of the Red Sun ?

[The Vegan Marxist]

I don't know what exactly what Gonzalo and Artemio are aiming for, but if it requires stopping the peoples' war altogether, and not a temporary ceasefire, then it should not be supported.

Have you looked at the articles on Gonzalo in the site of the Red Sun ?

They're calling for a temporary cease fire to see if any deals can be made. But it's been said continuously that the People's War will continue, whether it be peaceful or violent.

[red cat]

They're calling for a temporary cease fire to see if any deals can be made. But it's been said continuously that the People's War will continue, whether it be peaceful or violent.

A PW cannot be peaceful.

Are you sure that Gonzalo said all this ?

[The Vegan Marxist]

A PW cannot be peaceful.

Are you sure that Gonzalo said all this ?

The People's War is both within the measures of conducting peace & violence when it matters the most. Both the Nepalese & Indian Maoists have spoken of this as well. Yes, the violence will continue, but when it comes a time when a peaceful means of talk can be contributed, then why waist such & not try to get talk to start? What's to lose, the People's War? A simple accord wouldn't be the detriment of the People's War, that's for sure.

[ReVoLuTiOnArY-BrOtHeR]

A PW cannot be peaceful.

Are you sure that Gonzalo said all this ?

It looks as if you are not familiar with the Peruvian Communist Party. The website of Red Sun are just a bunch of dogmatic sectarian so called "communists" that will inevitably fail in their struggle for communism. Chairman Gonzalo does not recognize Red Sun as an official party organism. Red Sun claims to uphold the Chairman but in reality its all a superficial strategy for them to keep having support. Chairman Gonzalo has already stated that the people's war will continue and will go on until the party acquires political power. But we are not in the moment of waging an armed struggle, we are now waging an ideological struggle.

[red cat]

The People's War is both within the measures of conducting peace & violence when it matters the most. Both the Nepalese & Indian Maoists have spoken of this as well. Yes, the violence will continue, but when it comes a time when a peaceful means of talk can be contributed, then why waist such & not try to get talk to start? What's to lose, the People's War? A simple accord won't wouldn't be the detriment of the People's War, that's for sure.

I read a good article that deals with this issue. It might be this (http://www.redsun.org/mpp_doc/mpp_20081226_En.html) one. Maoists should go for a ceasefire only when it is favourable to them. Given the present conditions in Peru, it would be suicidal to stop violence.

[ReVoLuTiOnArY-BrOtHeR]

I read a good article that deals with this issue. It might be this (http://www.redsun.org/mpp_doc/mpp_20081226_En.html) one. Maoists should go for a ceasefire only when it is favourable to them. Given the present conditions in Peru, it would be suicidal to stop violence.

Again Sir, Red Sun is not an official party organism. It rejects ideology and is utterly dogmatic.

[red cat]

Again Sir, Red Sun is not an official party organism. It rejects ideology and is utterly dogmatic.

How do we know which one really is ?

[The Vegan Marxist]

How do we know which one really is ?

To keep an open mind on this particular subject - why exactly do you feel the Red Sun is still the under the very basis that the PCP operates under, & is still under the interests of Chairman Gonzalo?

[red cat]

To keep an open mind on this particular subject - why exactly do you feel the Red Sun is still the under the very basis that the PCP operates under, & is still under the interests of Chairman Gonzalo?

I can't prove that it is, but the other site focuses so much on a single person rather than on a movement, I doubt how revolutionary it really is.

It mentions nothing about the international conditions and other Maoist parties.

Also, it is well known that the PCP is quite successfully carrying out armed struggle in Peru. It is a revolutionary norm that one cannot lead from prison. Therefore, whether a ceasefire is useful or not will be decided by the Maoist cadres who are fighting, not by Gonzalo.

[The Vegan Marxist]

I can't prove that it is, but the other site focuses so much on a single person rather than on a movement, I doubt how revolutionary it really is.

It mentions nothing about the international conditions and other Maoist parties.

Also, it is well known that the PCP is quite successfully carrying out armed struggle in Peru. It is a revolutionary norm that one cannot lead from prison. Therefore, whether a ceasefire is useful or not will be decided by the Maoist cadres who are fighting, not by Gonzalo.

Well, they (as in Gonzalo & his followers) are leading a movement to help liberate those that have been locked up, to bring amnesty to them, which is what I feel the peace accord is for, to help strengthen the numbers once again.

[red cat]

Well, they (as in Gonzalo & his followers) are leading a movement to help liberate those that have been locked up, to bring amnesty to them, which is what I feel the peace accord is for, to help strengthen the numbers once again.

The state cannot lock up even a fraction of the masses. And it is from this pool of masses that the revolutionary party draws its cadres. While freeing those who are imprisoned is a progressive activity indeed, its interests must be subordinated to the military needs of the ongoing peoples' war.

EDIT: By the way, is there any video-recording of Gonzalo advocating peace accords ?

[The Vegan Marxist]

The state cannot lock up even a fraction of the masses. And it is from this pool of masses that the revolutionary party draws its cadres. While freeing those who are imprisoned is a progressive activity indeed, its interests must be subordinated to the military needs of the ongoing peoples' war.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tu1wAP2Baco

[ReVoLuTiOnArY-BrOtHeR]

How do we know which one really is ?

Uhmmm, comrade inform yourself before you speak. Chairman Gonzalo write a book and thus has set the program for the ideological struggle. Here is the name.

"De Puno y Letra" and just to let you know the armed struggle was ceased in 1993 due to the change of conditions. The official party line rejects dogmatism,opportunism and revisionism.

[A Revolutionary Tool]

^Sweet song...

[ReVoLuTiOnArY-BrOtHeR]

For all you comrades this was the latest statement of the party. It is from the genuine faction of the party, the one Chairman Gonzalo supports.

http://www.bandera-roja.com/pronunc-1209.html

[The Vegan Marxist]

For all you comrades this was the latest statement of the party. It is from the genuine faction of the party, the one Chairman Gonzalo supports.

http://www.bandera-roja.com/pronunc-1209.html

Here's a description of Chairman Gonzalo's new book in english, btw. What's confusing though to me is, it's apparent that Comrade Artemio is still leading armed struggle while staying faithful to their captured leader, yet it mentions that they are working with drug traffickers. That's confusing to where drug traffickers are enemies to the PCP, & then near the end of the description, it mentions how members that are in jail with Chairman Gonzalo say that Artemio is leading the armed struggle still, but isn't working with drug traffickers. So what's the truth here? Either way, here's the english description of the book:


Abimael Guzmán, the former head of Sendero Luminoso (74 years), has just published his personal memoirs. Publication of this book is the seventeenth anniversary of his capture (12 September 1992). This issue is 1,000 copies, and is far from the 300 thousand copies of the interview to make him the Journal in 1988, when Guzman was still revolutionary.

DE "handwriting" is the unoriginal title of autobiography Guzman. This book contains 408 pages of documents, part of his autobiography and his legal defense, his lawyer, Alfredo Crespo. The compilation of the book ran on account of Elena Iparraguirre, Guzman's partner and number two in the Shining Path of capitulation. "There are manuscripts of Dr. Guzman content relating to his legal defense strategy, a politically conceived defense," Crespo said. He said Guzman, 75, outlined his views on the development of civil procedure which sentenced him to life imprisonment in 2006, with his chief lieutenants, including Iparraguirre.

As the news agency EFE, the book also brings together "part of his autobiography until he reaches Ayacucho", before the start of the Shining Path's armed struggle, and personal letters addressed to him Iparraguirre.

Furthermore, there are testimonies of people "who have known or have conversed" with Guzman and a summary of the view from the press after his capture in 1992, and the statement he gave at the prison at the Callao naval base and an annex photography.

"Ms. Elena Iparraguirre believes that (the book) is of historic importance because for the first time applied a legal defense policy, there's the historical significance to present something about the thought of Dr. Guzman," said Crespo.

The letter of invitation to the presentation of the book, signed by Iparraguirre, Shining Path leader partner reaffirms that produced this compilation because considered "historically significant". Crespo also noted that the publication is "a reaffirmation" of a proposed peace accord that Guzman made the Peruvian Executive in 1993.

For that reason, we have included the letters he sent to former President Alberto Fujimori (1990-2000) requesting the start of "peace talks" and another that sent the president of the Transitional Government, Valentín Paniagua (2000-2001) .

Guzman and Iparraguirre were arrested near the dome of the Shining Path on 12 September 1992 at a residence in the Surco district of Lima, by agents of the Special Intelligence Group (GEIN) of the Peruvian police.

EFE

For Paola Ugaz (Terra Magazine), the autobiographical book entitled 'handwritten' written in prison by the head of Shining Path, Abimael Guzmán, broke a silence of 17 years the official of the Peruvian domestic war.

The founder and top leader of the terrorist group Sendero Luminoso (SL), Abimael Guzmán, said his role in an internal war that struck Peru from 1980 to 2000, "came to an end," according to Terra Magazine, his girlfriend and SL's number two Elena Iparraguirre.

With the explosion of the polling stations in the high Andean town of Ayacucho Chuschi, 17 May 1980, Shining Path declared war against the Peruvian state-caused by the Final Report of the Commission of Truth and Reconciliation-close 70 thousand dead.

Iparraguirre, 62, and a life sentence said that "war is behind us" and now with Guzman seeking "political solution to the problems of people's war, the general amnesty and national reconciliation."

After the capture of Abimael Guzmán and his leadership, today September 12, 1992, then right arm of President Alberto Fujimori (1990-2000), Vladimiro Montesinos was that Guzman signed a memorandum of peace in 1993, in exchange for favors prison and to be locked in the same prison with Iparraguirre.

The capture of Guzman and signing the minutes of peace moves Shining Path is divided into three groups: prisoners who followed Guzman and see the war as a glorious fact but finished ranked as the agreement, the hikers who are in the Jungle Huallaga and are led by Artemio and hikers who fall into the Apurimac River Valley Jan (VRAE) and are led by "Joseph", Víctor Quispe Palomino.

Faction of the walkers in freedom, led by Artemio in the Huallaga are recognizing as its leader Abimael Guzmán but continue to wreak havoc among the population, because of its alliance with drug traffickers, while those headed by Joseph in the VRAE not recognize the authority of Guzman and have become a group with sophisticated weapons of long and short range, which in the past year have killed 52 people, including military and civilians.

On the Shining Path faction VRAE; Iparraguirre indicating "hired mercenaries to the highest bidder" and "Joseph never was a hiker relevant."

Abimael's girlfriend said, "Joseph tried unsuccessfully to join the Shining Path's central committee but that his limited knowledge of the Maoist doctrine prevented it," while adding that "in the mid-eighties abandoned its obligations to the party and VRAE went to his family and then return before 1990. "

Last May, the Maoist leader also told police went to interview him in his prison in the Callao Naval Base, that the faction of Joseph in the VRAE "are mercenaries and they have no relation to the dome Sendero Luminoso in prison.

These statements of Abimael Guzmán and Elena Iparraguirre coincide with the order to the judicial authorities of "having family meetings" and they are allowed to marry so they can see four times a year.

Guzman, who turns 75 years on 3 December-is also concerned about the fate of his body after death, because so far none of the Peruvian state where he thought buried and where he can visit his followers.

A handwritten

Maoist leader also concerned about his legacy in writing why his girlfriend Elena Iparraguirre compiled from his cell in the women's prison in Santa Monica, all hand-written on the mega Abimael which was followed in 2006, and love letters and a manuscript about his childhood and adulthood in the book "handwriting" presented today at a hotel in downtown Lima.

Over 400 people attended the book launch of Abimael Guzmán in which his lawyers Alfredo Crespo, Manuel Fajardo, the improvements claimed by your sponsored prison, sentenced to life imprisonment.

"This act is a victory for Dr. Abimael Guzmán, who is being held in isolation and the only way you can review the sentence in the year 2037, when he has 103 years," said attorney Alfredo Crespo.

"Our country should not remain divided" Abimael assumed its responsibility for the war and noted that has had excess, make self-criticism has been raised but he can not implement the forgiveness or repentance because they are religious concepts, so far asked me, the State armed forces have assumed "responsibility?" he said.

The book presented with long applause from the attendees to the hotel in downtown Lima, silence marks the end of seventeen years of Abimael Guzmán, who has wanted to be a soldier, who in his teens was apprenticed to a watchmaker and still incidents of World War II through the radio.

Among the attendees, said the mother of Elena Iparraguirre, White Revoredo of 94, his sister Amelia, as well as students and professionals of all ages, whole families, the domestic and foreign press and members of police intelligence and security state.

"A handwritten" which was printed in the editorial "A show of hands" with an initial print run of 1,000 copies, "he concludes with a sentence of Abimael:" What I will devote the rest of your life fighting for the freedom of all who accompanied me in the same ".

Criticism VRAE

Meanwhile, unknown to the faction of the Shining Path's remnants in directing Jose VRAE not constrain the Sendero leaders but also to Central Committee members: Laura Eugenia Zambrano, Margot Liendo and Victoria Trujillo, who were interviewed by Terra Magazine Women in the Penal Santa Monica.

Laura Eugenia Zambrano, 59, a sentence of life imprisonment to Terra Magazine noted that "flatly rejected that armed group, militaristic, are not part of the Sendero Luminoso Communist Party, Marxism and traffickers are antipensamiento Gonzalo", while who said Artemio (SL leader in the Huallaga) "by what I read in the media itself is part of Path because it seeks a political solution and if military action is done defensively." Meanwhile, Margot Liendo, 60 and 21 years in prison, told Terra Magazine that the remnants in the VRAE "is an armed group that has abandoned ideology, are anti-Maoist, antipueblo are mercenaries. They work behind the people and against people by personal appetites. "Artemio in the Huallaga valley is about a political solution and performs defensive actions," he added.

Victoria Trujillo, 49, a sentence of 25 years, "said Terra magazine that" war is no longer popular support for Abimael y Elena and I believe that the remnants of VRAE "have nothing to do with the party, we have never known and are mercenaries against the people. "

Trujillo with Liendo are survivors of a massacre carried out by intelligence services in 1991, the Fujimori government, which killed 42 members of the terrorist group Sendero Luminoso.

"I wonder and I saved a bullet in his left leg that causes me discomfort in cold weather," says Trujillo.

Laura Eugenia Zambrano, Margot Liendo and Victoria Trujillo, women and members of the Shining Path were condemned by the Shining Path leader, Abimael Guzmán and Elena Iparraguirre. Between them they have to pay civil damages amounting to 3,700 million soles.

VRAE on the remnants of which have become the biggest problem the government of Alan García, Hugo Cabieses sociologist noted that "the central problem is not the Shining Path VRAE but is drug trafficking, the walkers are the caretakers of the drug, the second problem is poverty and lack of state presence, therefore, any strategy must have a police intelligence to conduct operations alongside impeccable sustainable development plan for the valley where nearly 150 thousand people. "

Path VRAE not have an ideological proposal because it has the capacity to do, but if an attempt to seize power in the area, earning the mayor and win people over, "he concluded.

[ReVoLuTiOnArY-BrOtHeR]

Here's a description of Chairman Gonzalo's new book in english, btw. What's confusing though to me is, it's apparent that Comrade Artemio is still leading armed struggle while staying faithful to their captured leader, yet it mentions that they are working with drug traffickers. That's confusing to where drug traffickers are enemies to the PCP, & then near the end of the description, it mentions how members that are in jail with Chairman Gonzalo say that Artemio is leading the armed struggle still, but isn't working with drug traffickers. So what's the truth here? Either way, here's the english description of the book:

Comrade the fighters in el VRAE which is a location in the peruvian rural places. Those fighters are intertwined with drug-traficers. The true faction has no connection with the drug-trafickers.

[The Vegan Marxist]

Comrade the fighters in el VRAE which is a location in the peruvian rural places. Those fighters are intertwined with drug-traficers. The true faction has no connection with the drug-trafickers.

I'm not talking about Viktor, I'm talking about Artemio is still leading the armed struggle as well in the jungle. VRAE is leading armed attacks against both the government & innocent civilians. But the blame is being put on Comrade Artemio when it comes to working with drug traffickers.

[ReVoLuTiOnArY-BrOtHeR]

Well Comrade Artemio is not essentially "continuing war", he is just defending himself from the fascist peruvian state. The state does not want a political solution, so tell me what other option do the comrades have, defend themselves right?

Concerning his drug connection, that is pure bourgeois propaganda. Viktor is connected with the drugs but Artemio isn't.

[The Vegan Marxist]

Well Comrade Artemio is not essentially "continuing war", he is just defending himself from the fascist peruvian state. The state does not want a political solution, so tell me what other option do the comrades have, defend themselves right?

Concerning his drug connection, that is pure bourgeois propaganda. Viktor is connected with the drugs but Artemio isn't.

That article you just gave a link to, I just read it &, from what it seems to me, seems like it's implying that the People's War is done & over with for the PCP & that the peace negotiation being brought forth is to end the violence once & for all between the two. If that's the case then I don't see how I could support such when the exploitation, the suffering, the inequality will continue even with peace being brought forth between the PCP & the Peruvian-State.

[red cat]

Uhmmm, comrade inform yourself before you speak. Chairman Gonzalo write a book and thus has set the program for the ideological struggle. Here is the name.

"De Puno y Letra" and just to let you know the armed struggle was ceased in 1993 due to the change of conditions. The official party line rejects dogmatism,opportunism and revisionism.

I am not aware of any such party line. Other big parties have mentioned that the PCP is conducting armed struggle with violence. If a party faction advocating peace exists, then probably we do not recognize it.

I will try to find out more. Thanks for the information.

[red cat]

For all you comrades this was the latest statement of the party. It is from the genuine faction of the party, the one Chairman Gonzalo supports.

http://www.bandera-roja.com/pronunc-1209.html

I might be mistaken, but the "fourth grand strategy" seems to be meant for the complete liquidation of the peoples' war.

What could be the possible changes in the Peruvian society that call for the adoption of such a line ?

[ReVoLuTiOnArY-BrOtHeR]

I might be mistaken, but the "fourth grand strategy" seems to be meant for the complete liquidation of the peoples' war.

What could be the possible changes in the Peruvian society that call for the adoption of such a line ?

Conditions in Peru have changed, ultimitely the political situation. The central committee i.e the leadership was captured, there is a reactionary campaign against the revolutionaries, and a division has occurred in the party. There are now three groups, one group is the genuine revolutionaries that are struggling for a political solution. Another group is the one headed by Viktor that does not represent the interests of the people, but they only represent their own personal interests, and finally you have the group that has abandoned ideology and has joined the capitalist road. A lot of things have changed comrade, but to me the true revolutionaries are the ones struggling for a political solution, general amnesty, and a national reconciliation.

[red cat]

Conditions in Peru have changed, ultimitely the political situation. The central committee i.e the leadership was captured, there is a reactionary campaign against the revolutionaries, and a division has occurred in the party. There are now three groups, one group is the genuine revolutionaries that are struggling for a political solution. Another group is the one headed by Viktor that does not represent the interests of the people, but they only represent their own personal interests, and finally you have the group that has abandoned ideology and has joined the capitalist road. A lot of things have changed comrade, but to me the true revolutionaries are the ones struggling for a political solution, general amnesty, and a national reconciliation.

So the capture of a central committee is condition enough to abandon armed struggle ?

[Crux]

Welcome to the emptiness of your own political tactic, red cat.

[red cat]

Welcome to the emptiness of your own political tactic, red cat.

Stop trolling.

[Crux]

I am not trolling. If the PCP are your fore bearers, politically, then the current state of them should tell you something about your own political line.

[scarletghoul]

Yes because, unlike the PCP, the glorious CWI is leading the entire working class of the world in great revolution so that comment was not at all hipocr-
hey wait a minute..

[The Vegan Marxist]

I am not trolling. If the PCP are your fore bearers, politically, then the current state of them should tell you something about your own political line.

Just because whether the PCP has lost the armed struggle doesn't mean our political line is within jeopardy. We still have the Nepalese Maoists & the Indian Maoists rising up & guess what...they're winning!

[Crux]

Yes because, unlike the PCP, the glorious CWI is leading the entire working class of the world in great revolution so that comment was not at all hipocr-
hey wait a minute..
Well, we don't spend our time shooting up the rest of the left and involve ourselfes in drug trading, as apparently at least on of the PCP split does.
We lead to the extent we are able, this is not the thread for me to list all of the thing's we have done or currrently do.

This thread seems more in line with showing the disintegration and failure of the political line of the PCP.

[ReVoLuTiOnArY-BrOtHeR]

Well, we don't spend our time shooting up the rest of the left and involve ourselfes in drug trading, as apparently at least on of the PCP split does.
We lead to the extent we are able, this is not the thread for me to list all of the thing's we have done or currrently do.

This thread seems more in line with showing the disintegration and failure of the political line of the PCP.

What failure of the PCP line. The line of the PCP is not dogmatic as yours is. They realize that conditions have changed and that the same thing can't be done what we did in the starting up of the people's war. People's war is still being waged, but this time not armed but ideologically. We are now having a battle of ideas.

[Crux]

What's so great about being a Trotskyist? I mean, I'm sure this Hugo Blanco guy is great & all, but why does being a 'Trotsky' mean you're the highlight of anyone else that is a Communist? Trotsky is known for his opposition against Stalin, in which, in my opinion, got a little too dogmatic. Sure, Stalin wasn't the best leader of all Communist leaders, but he sure as hell wasn't the 'Soviet Devil' like a lot of western propaganda likes to paint him as. And to be honest, Leon Trotsky, in my opinion, would've never brought the Soviet Union forward on anything if was to become the leader instead of Stalin.
No I am just stating fact. Hugo Blanco is a widely known marxist and peasant leader in that area, who I might have to add is on the PCP's "death list". You may praise their little guerilla adventurism and killings of "revisionists" from afar, in reality it's just fucked up, for a lack of a better word. The fact that Blanco is a trotskyist is merely a side point here.

[Crux]

What failure of the PCP line. The line of the PCP is not dogmatic as yours is. They realize that conditions have changed and that the same thing can't be done what we did in the starting up of the people's war. People's war is still being waged, but this time not armed but ideologically. We are now having a battle of ideas.
There seem to be some disagreement about that. COnsider red cat's statements for example. I am not convinced sendiero luminoso will survive as a political movement if they have to engage in a battle of ideas, in front of the working class and the peasants. To those that they are not already discredited this could in all probability be it. Other ex-guerillas have gone that way. And as has been said sendiero luminoso is worse than most.
I have infinetely more respect, even if I do not support them, for FARC-EP, for example.

[The Vegan Marxist]

No I am just stating fact. Hugo Blanco is a widely known marxist and peasant leader in that area, who I might have to add is on the PCP's "death list". You may praise their little guerilla adventurism and killings of "revisionists" from afar, in reality it's just fucked up, for a lack of a better word. The fact that Blanco is a trotskyist is merely a side point here.

I've been looking up on Hugo Blanco, & I will say that he's got my support from what all he's done, but he isn't even in Peru anymore. He's been living in Mexico since 1992 when he fled due to the rising coup that took place.

[Crux]

I've been looking up on Hugo Blanco, & I will say that he's got my support from what all he's done, but he isn't even in Peru anymore. He's been living in Mexico since 1992 when he fled due to the rising coup that took place.
He's back in Peru, in fact he was imprisoned in 08, I think, but I can look it up.
Uhm, yep seems he was arrested in Peru in 08 http://www.internationalviewpoint.org/spip.php?article1541

Presumably that means he still in the country and he is the publisher of a paper called Lucha Indigena.

What I am saying is that he has done mroe for the opressed of peru than the sendiero luminoso ever have, and in fact, i will restate they are only a damaging influence. Consider again that Hugo Blanco is one of those "revisionists" they would like to see murdered. It seems like they like doing the regimes work in wiping out the left.

[The Vegan Marxist]

He's back in Peru, in fact he was imprisoned in 08, I think, but I can look it up.
Uhm, yep seems he was arrested in Peru in 08 http://www.internationalviewpoint.org/spip.php?article1541

Presumably that means he still in the country and he is the publisher of a paper called Lucha Indigena.

What I am saying is that he has done mroe for the opressed of peru than the sendiero luminoso ever have, and in fact, i will restate they are only a damaging influence. Consider again that Hugo Blanco is one of those "revisionists" they would like to see murdered. It seems like they like doing the regimes work in wiping out the left.

The Shining Path when they first started were there for the peasants more than Hugo. Though, they've turned into these different factions, which you know what's going on between that.

[Crux]

Well the shit went to hell looooong before this split, if we presume there ever was anything progressive about sendiero luminoso.

[The Vegan Marxist]

Well the shit went to hell looooong before this split, if we presume there ever was anything progressive about sendiero luminoso.

Actually, things went to shit once Chairman Gonzalo was captured, because then the numbers started dropping, the factions that came about after the split, & then one of the splits, which is led by Viktor, has led an armed assault on not only political figures & cops, but also civilians as well. So no, I'd have to disagree that things were bad before the Chairman got captured. Unless you're going to buy into the lies by the Peruvian government.

[Devrim]

They attacked the village that was operated under the Rondistas, in which they had killed Shining Path members first. I've talked to some that were part of that led 'massacre' & from what I was told, there was a firefight that took place over there, & yes, women & children were killed, but not intentionally, but rather were victims of cross-fire & ricochets. In a time of revolutionary war, death to innocence is inevitable. Yes, they are sad that such had happen, but it was justified when the Rondistas came in & killed the members of the Shining Path.

That pretty much what the leftists always say, "It wasn't intentional, of course there are victims in war", etc.

In this case it doesn't really fit in with the facts though. Most of the victims died from axe or machete wounds, and of the ones that were shot most of them were shot at close range in the head.

I suppose the best that you can say about the Maoists in this instance is that they showed absolutely no discriminatory policies. They massacred people from six months to seventy years old. Nor was there any sexism at all, women were massacred too, including pregnant ones.

Devrim

[red cat]

What failure of the PCP line. The line of the PCP is not dogmatic as yours is. They realize that conditions have changed and that the same thing can't be done what we did in the starting up of the people's war. People's war is still being waged, but this time not armed but ideologically. We are now having a battle of ideas.

I had asked a question on the line you advocate. However, I see that the thread is turning into another useless one where we are having to combat typical bourgeois lines of denouncing the PCP.

Shall we continue the original argument in the MLM group then ?

[The Vegan Marxist]

That pretty much what the leftists always say, "It wasn't intentional, of course there are victims in war", etc.

In this case it doesn't really fit in with the facts though. Most of the victims died from axe or machete wounds, and of the ones that were shot most of them were shot at close range in the head.

I suppose the best that you can say about the Maoists in this instance is that they showed absolutely no discriminatory policies. They massacred people from six months to seventy years old. Nor was there any sexism at all, women were massacred too, including pregnant ones.

Devrim

Please show me the reports of these crucial details please. Then we'll talk from there.

But also, things like that doesn't mean they're going to be true, but rather fabricated lies by the government. The PCP took responsibility for that massacre, but they never said things like that. Such fabricated lies take place all the time when it comes to help hurt the rep of such groups they're targeting.

For example, the Nepalese government had an article released where it stated that the Maoists over there were going into battle drunk & on drugs, with pockets full of condoms. Or when the U.S. fabricated the Gulf of Tonkin & used that even to help justify the attempted occupation over the Vietnamese.

[Devrim]

Please show me the reports of these crucial details please. Then we'll talk from there.

Report of the Comisión de la Verdad y Reconciliación on the Lucanamarca massacre:
http://www.cverdad.org.pe/ifinal/pdf/TOMO%20VII/Casos%20Ilustrativos-UIE/2.6.%20LUCANAMARCA.pdf

I thought that it was quite widely known what happened and have never seen anybody trying to deny it before. Although it criticised the Senderistas, the commission was seen by many as having a left-wing bias and even of being pro Sendero.


But also, things like that doesn't mean they're going to be true, but rather fabricated lies by the government. The PCP took responsibility for that massacre, but they never said things like that. Such fabricated lies take place all the time when it comes to help hurt the rep of such groups they're targeting.No, it doesn't. Certainly governments lie to discredit people, but I don't think that the Maoists are particularly more reliable. However, in this case I think the cases is so widely known that it is beyond any doubt anyway. I think if I looked for a while, I could probably find the same details in Maoist sources.

Devrim

[black magick hustla]

I think the point is not so much the particular number of people killed, but the fact that voluntarist, guerrilla warfare leads to a kind of warrior culture. removed from normal society, and forced to live underground, a sort of gang mentality emerges.

i think this always happens with guerrillas. the state murders individuals from a particular guerrillas, and the guerrilla seeks for vengeance by attacking anything they deem the state. In this case, it was Lucamarca.

[Cooler Reds Will Prevail]

Right now I don't know if your aware but the lawyer of Dr. Guzman, Alfredo Crespo is launching a party to run in the electoral process. The party is called the Movement for Amnesty and Fundamental Rights.

The irony, of course, is that the PCP specifically polemicized against the idea that humans have innate rights with which they are necessarily endowed. So the fact that Gonzalo would be getting behind a party that proclaims human rights only when he himself is in need of them seems a wee bit opportunist to me. I'm not saying I disagree with the PCP on the concept of human rights (though I probably have a slightly less draconian position), but it may behoove of them to be consistent.

[red cat]

The irony, of course, is that the PCP specifically polemicized against the idea that humans have innate rights with which they are necessarily endowed. So the fact that Gonzalo would be getting behind a party that proclaims human rights only when he himself is in need of them seems a wee bit opportunist to me. I'm not saying I disagree with the PCP on the concept of human rights (though I probably have a slightly less draconian position), but it may behoove of them to be consistent.

What we recognize as the PCP is continuing and advancing the peoples' war.

[el_chavista]

"Marxism-Leninism will open the shining path to revolution"
For those willing to read Latin American guerrillas' docs in Spanish language here is a site: Documental Center of the [Latin American] Armed Movements
(http://www.cedema.org/index.php?ver=portada)

[Cooler Reds Will Prevail]

What we recognize as the PCP is continuing and advancing the peoples' war.

Sure, but we also have to recognize that, during the course of the People's War, Gonzalo WAS the PCP. So I suppose I misspoke when I said that the PCP was being hypocritical, when in fact it was Gonzalo that was being so. Apologies.

[The Vegan Marxist]

Sure, but we also have to recognize that, during the course of the People's War, Gonzalo WAS the PCP. So I suppose I misspoke when I said that the PCP was being hypocritical, when in fact it was Gonzalo that was being so. Apologies.

Let's remember that, despite the fact that Gonzalo became, practically, the face of the PCP, the PCP was not of the leader, & even Gonzalo has said this himself, but it's of the exploited peasants & workers of Peru. This is struggle by the people, not by a captured leader.

[Cooler Reds Will Prevail]

Gonzalo was unquestioned and unparalleled leader of the PCP. Cadre pledged personal loyalty to him. What I meant by that sentence that you quoted was that Gonzalo's word was the line of the party, so when the PCP spoke out against the idea of human rights as an abstract concept, that was Gonzalo's line.

[gorillafuck]

Please show me the reports of these crucial details please. Then we'll talk from there.

But also, things like that doesn't mean they're going to be true, but rather fabricated lies by the government. The PCP took responsibility for that massacre, but they never said things like that. Such fabricated lies take place all the time when it comes to help hurt the rep of such groups they're targeting.
You're dismissing an atrocity that is widely acknowledged and that they themselves admit to perpetrating (though they try to rationalize it). Do they need to show you a video of them killing a child with a machete before you'll realize how sick what they did was?

[The Vegan Marxist]

You're dismissing an atrocity that is widely acknowledged and that they themselves admit to perpetrating (though they try to rationalize it). Do they need to show you a video of them killing a child with a machete before you'll realize how sick what they did was?

I've never heard them say they've killed children, so I won't believe it until I either see a video of it or they say they killed children themselves.

[Devrim]

I think the point is not so much the particular number of people killed, but the fact that voluntarist, guerrilla warfare leads to a kind of warrior culture. removed from normal society, and forced to live underground, a sort of gang mentality emerges.

i think this always happens with guerrillas. the state murders individuals from a particular guerrillas, and the guerrilla seeks for vengeance by attacking anything they deem the state. In this case, it was Lucamarca.

Yes, I agree. When I was in India recently, everyday there were horror stories about Maoists behaving like that. Sure some of them must be fabricated, but I would imagine that some are based on fact.

Devrim

[black magick hustla]

When you associate with reactionary scum and blindly believe the pro-imperialist media, you tend to hear "horror stories" about revolutionaries. Is it any wonder to see social-imperialists like yourself believing and propagating such things?*

*Social imperialist for opposing national liberation.

i imagine some american child with the username "lex luthor" who has probably never met maoists beyond the american lite ones knows who to trust better

dont worry lexxy. yes the pcp are the best and the lucanamarca massacre was just the bourgeosie trippin on acid