Is There Any Hope For The First World Nations?

[The Vegan Marxist]

I was recently talking to a fellow comrade of mine earlier today, & we were talking about what should be done to first world nations, such as the U.S., to help bring about enough workers conscience to implement revolutionary warfare. What he feels is that the U.S. people, or how he likes calling it the 'first worldists', have no chance in truly waking up to true class conscience & that the best thing to do is to bring down the U.S. to ashes. I agreed to an extent that the U.S. needs another disaster, something that'll allow the people to finally realize that the system isn't working for them, for them to build up this state of mind that they have nothing left to lose. But I don't personally agree with bringing the entire country to flames & worry about other people instead. So, what are all of your thoughts on this?

[Tablo]

I think it will eventually happen, but only in a period of severe economic conditions for the working class. I mean even worse than they already are.

[The Vegan Marxist]

I think it will eventually happen, but only in a period of severe economic conditions for the working class. I mean even worse than they already are.

Can the working class wait that long though, if such a crisis was to not happen within the next coming decades?

[syndicat]

People do not automatically come to progressive conclusions when things get worse for them. Nor does this automatically lead to rebellion. It may lead to scapegoating and division or people just focusing on surviving.

People need to have some belief in a positive direction, that following a certain path will work. Resistance has been at a low ebb in the USA for a long time due to absence of revolutionaries in workplaces and other sites of struggle, and because of absence of organizations that work by moblizing people. People change their consciousness mainly through being involved in struggle, which motivates findingout about how the system works, and develops skills for organizing and activism in people.

The working class in the first world countries is also oppressed, but there is the history of the bureaucratization of the movements of the working class in these countries after World War 2, and to some extent even before.

[scarletghoul]

First of all, the Amerikan middle class seems to be beginning to melt right now, and more people are falling into the 'poor' section of society. The economic crisis and the decline in the Amerikan empire is the reason for this. Who knows, maybe in one or two decades the US will have a class war going again like they did before WW2.

Anyway the main thing I wanna say in response to some of the above posts is that you dont have to wait for some magical apocalyptic happening to trigger class conciousness in the people, you dont need the US to end before you can start organising, etc. History has shown that first world revolutions are indeed possible. OK maybe not as much as (or with a lower success rate than) third world revolutions, but certainly the situations do appear. Its up to us to educate and organise the people, in preperation and incitement of such siuations. Its no use saying "americans do not like communism we have to wait for some magical elf to change their minds"; you must be the magical elf ! The magical elf vanguard !!!

[RadioRaheem84]

I think that most of the US is lost due to a stubborn attitude toward socialism. If people were to learn that we're all about democracy in the workplace and changing social relations altogether then many, many Americans would be behind us. But alas, comments about human nature being fixed, our belief that liberty = capitalism, the nations belief that we're exceptional coupled with strong religious sentiments, all lead me to conclude that socialism is almost a lost cause here. The most we can hope for is that progressive forces will prevail and bring along a strong social democratic struggle. But that sucks, as most nations are looking to move beyond that while we think it's so damn revolutionary to be like Canada or Sweden! It's sad.

[Psy]

The largest obstacle is the proletariat that wants peace between the classes, and argues for lawful peaceful protest is the best way to improve things as it would appeal to the bourgeoisie morality. This is counter to the revolutionary stance that the bourgeoisie knows what is doing and does not care that their exploitation hurts people, General Motors share holders don't give a shit if you are homeless because you got laid off from General Motors thus it is pointless to appeal to the moral compass of the bourgeoisie as the bourgeoisie are amoral.

So for a revolution to occur we need workers to reject the very idea of compromising with the bourgeoisie and for the proletariat to want the bourgeoisie to unconditionally surrender to the proletariat so the proletariat can deconstruct the capitalist mode of production and bring a classless society that would be better then peace between the classes

[The Vegan Marxist]

The largest obstacle is the proletariat that wants peace between the classes, and argues for lawful peaceful protest is the best way to improve things as it would appeal to the bourgeoisie morality. This is counter to the revolutionary stance that the bourgeoisie knows what is doing and does not care that their exploitation hurts people, General Motors share holders don't give a shit if you are homeless because you got laid off from General Motors thus it is pointless to appeal to the moral compass of the bourgeoisie as the bourgeoisie are amoral.

So for a revolution to occur we need workers to reject the very idea of compromising with the bourgeoisie and for the proletariat to want the bourgeoisie to unconditionally surrender to the proletariat so the proletariat can deconstruct the capitalist mode of production and bring a classless society that would be better then peace between the classes

And this would be done how?

[RadioRaheem84]

So for a revolution to occur we need workers to reject the very idea of compromising with the bourgeoisie and for the proletariat to want the bourgeoisie to unconditionally surrender to the proletariat so the proletariat can deconstruct the capitalist mode of production and bring a classless society that would be better then peace between the classes
That's hard when even the liberals in this country want peace and reconciliation with the classes. I think they hate the idea of class warfare more than anyone else.

Example: I was watching the Daily Show yesterday and John Stewart was pissed off because Fox News was skewering the health care debate issue by only presenting the conservative side. They did this by pandering to the fact that most Americans dislike the health care proposals in both the house and senate. Of course they obfuscated the point that a lot of Americas are against the health care proposal because it doesn't include a public option or a single payer system and see them as obvious compromises between politicians and the insurance companies, favor of making it look like they were simply against single payer. Stewart, on the other hand, was trying to paint the picture that most Americans were for the proposals and that this was all in favor of Obama. It reeked of Democratic praise while trying to be objectively critical.

But this is my point, is that even the oppositionist media, the liberal media, makes us feel as though we're weird and strange for not participating in the system, acknowledging it as legitimate, and capitulating to it's power. Even the left in this country is so pro-establishment that it mocks the only anti-establishment movement out there with a major voice; the conservative right wingers.

[ZombieGrits]

I think theres a problem with the whole leftist college scene, not anything inherently wrong with it, its just that the prevailing attitude is that getting involved in radical politics is something that only students do, and people who get interested at a younger age are expected to "grow up & grow out" of their beliefs.

So in short younger comrades (like me and the college crowd) should be assured that they're not "just going through a phase," and that there is indeed a future in leftist ideals. Parties or other organizations capable of doing so shouldn't refrain from getting involved with students just because they might attend a bourgeois school.

[Tablo]

I was not saying we need to wait for things to go down hill. I am just saying that people generally don't start to radicalize until things get particularly bad. This certainly can easily lead to scapegoating which is why we need to make our presences known and do our best to spread the honest truth about the failings of the capitalist system.

[RadioRaheem84]

I was not saying we need to wait for things to go down hill. I am just saying that people generally don't start to radicalize until things get particularly bad. This certainly can easily lead to scapegoating which is why we need to make our presences known and do our best to spread the honest truth about the failings of the capitalist system.

I am just afraid that when things get worse people will turn to nationalism rather than socialism. Thanks to the advent of global finance capitalism, once again the world the world is thrust into two camps; nationalist and socialist. I just hope a large portion of the american public do not choose fascism.

[Tablo]

I am just afraid that when things get worse people will turn to nationalism rather than socialism. Thanks to the advent of global finance capitalism, once again the world the world is thrust into two camps; nationalist and socialist. I just hope a large portion of the american public do not choose fascism.
I understand exactly how you feel, but the way our country is going it seems likely more will turn to fascism. :(

[RadioRaheem84]

I understand exactly how you feel, but the way our country is going it seems likely more will turn to fascism. :(

Yes, very sad. I just hope that it doesn't spread to the rest of the world.

[The Vegan Marxist]

I understand exactly how you feel, but the way our country is going it seems likely more will turn to fascism. :(

Only if we allow such to happen. Another crisis is bound to happen, more than likely another stock crash, which I'm pretty sure will be worse than the '08 one. So we need to take advantage of such crisis, when such happens, & start enlightening the masses. We need to come out of the shadows & show the world we still exist & are growing profusely.

[RadioRaheem84]

Only if we allow such to happen. Another crisis is bound to happen, more than likely another stock crash, which I'm pretty sure will be worse than the '08 one. So we need to take advantage of such crisis, when such happens, & start enlightening the masses. We need to come out of the shadows & show the world we still exist & are growing profusely.


It depends on how much time we have though. I mean analysts predict the next bubble to happen pretty soon within this decade and it won't last too long and they all say it will be catastrophic. I mean do we have enough time to undue nearly half a century of anti-socialist propaganda in the US?

I say this because the worse things get the stranger the right wingers come in blaming 'socialism' for the ills of the nation. It just seems as though the more we agitate, the more we awaken others, the more radical they become and all the more real their crazy delusions become.

I just see our situation being similar to the days before the fall of the Weimar Republic. The more the left agitated the more it pissed off the right wing in that country. The right wing had the same delusions about international socialists (as well international financiers) being the cause for their troubles. The mistakenly saw the liberal government as 'socialist' and leftist and caused fights with leftists because of the incompetence and the corruption of the government.

[The Vegan Marxist]

It depends on how much time we have though. I mean analysts predict the next bubble to happen pretty soon within this decade and it won't last too long and they all say it will be catastrophic. I mean do we have enough time to undue nearly half a century of anti-socialist propaganda in the US?

I say this because the worse things get the stranger the right wingers come in blaming 'socialism' for the ills of the nation. It just seems as though the more we agitate, the more we awaken others, the more radical they become and all the more real their crazy delusions become.

I just see our situation being similar to the days before the fall of the Weimar Republic. The more the left agitated the more it pissed off the right wing in that country. The right wing had the same delusions about international socialists (as well international financiers) being the cause for their troubles. The mistakenly saw the liberal government as 'socialist' and leftist and caused fights with leftists because of the incompetence and the corruption of the government.

Maybe the best decision would be to just let go of the States for now & start organizing those that are actually oppressed to such an extent that class awareness is easily accomplished for them (ex - Third World Countries), & then from there, let the third world take over the first worlds later on?

[RadioRaheem84]

Maybe the best decision would be to just let go of the States for now & start organizing those that are actually oppressed to such an extent that class awareness is easily accomplished for them (ex - Third World Countries), & then from there, let the third world take over the first worlds later on?

I am conentrating most of my efforts to build up as much practical experience in construction, engineering and the like to take that expertise to a country that is experiencing social change. I feel that when things hit the fan that socialist bent countries will be in better shape than even Western democracites.


At this point, the United States is in a sort of political dark age as a result of a massive propaganda campaign against socialism during the Cold War years. A lot of Americans haven't the slightest clue or the foundational base to even state rational opinions about public policy. It's amazing that poor working class people in Venezuela and Bolivia are able to describe the political situation with such clarity and are able to rightly support measure that favor the working class. We have a huge section of the middle class and the working class that are willing to DIE for upper class interests. That is sheer mind manipulation on the part of the capitalists. It's scary and it could culminate into a proto-fascist movement. I mean I remember Michael Savage calling for a resurrection of the FriedKorps, a para-military group that went around hunting socialists and murdered Rosa Luxembourg. This is serious shit.

So for us in the US, major agitation would lead to serious confrontation. Staying silent though would allow for many more to fall into the right winger's ranks. It's a very tight spot we're in.

[The Vegan Marxist]

I am conentrating most of my efforts to build up as much practical experience in construction, engineering and the like to take that expertise to a country that is experiencing social change. I feel that when things hit the fan that socialist bent countries will be in better shape than even Western democracites.


At this point, the United States is in a sort of political dark age as a result of a massive propaganda campaign against socialism during the Cold War years. A lot of Americans haven't the slightest clue or the foundational base to even state rational opinions about public policy. It's amazing that poor working class people in Venezuela and Bolivia are able to describe the political situation with such clarity and are able to rightly support measure that favor the working class. We have a huge section of the middle class and the working class that are willing to DIE for upper class interests. That is sheer mind manipulation on the part of the capitalists. It's scary and it could culminate into a proto-fascist movement. I mean I remember Michael Savage calling for a resurrection of the FriedKorps, a para-military group that went around hunting socialists and murdered Rosa Luxembourg. This is serious shit.

So for us in the US, major agitation would lead to serious confrontation. Staying silent though would allow for many more to fall into the right winger's ranks. It's a very tight spot we're in.

Glenn Beck has also called for all the right-wingers to bear arms & to exterminate the "progressives" - in which he means liberals, independents, socialists, communists, etc.

[RadioRaheem84]

Glenn Beck has also called for all the right-wingers to bear arms & to exterminate the "progressives" - in which he means liberals, independents, socialists, communists, etc.

What? When?! I heard him say that we need to exterminate progressivism as in exterminate the ideology from our collective thought, but I didn't hear him say that we need to bear arms and take down progressives. That is serious!

[The Vegan Marxist]

It was in this republican meeting that he was in, & he was talking about how the "progressives" were coming after them & that soon they're going to have to make the choice on whether they were going to side with the enemy or with the "true americans". I remember The Young Turks talking about this & he even talked about how crazy this has gotten.

[RadioRaheem84]

Was it the RPAC meeting? I have to see the clip because I think that he just mentioned expunging the ideology from our nation's collective thought but he could've been saying this to insite violence and cover his ass!

[The Vegan Marxist]

Glenn Beck, even on his show, has talked about bearing arms against the 'Socialist' government.

[Tablo]

We just need to continue organizing with the working class in this country. That is all we can do and would be the most constructive thing we could do. I don't think honest organizing could blow up in our face. When you are helping someone out they will tend to trust you.

[Psy]

And this would be done how?
By disillusioning the proletariat of dream of reforming capitalism and the whole non-violence movement. For example the anti-war protests prior to Iraq war was huge yet changed nothing because the anti-war movement did nothing. They did not get the railway workers to refuse to move the military trains, dockworkers to refuse to load ships with supplies and arms for the war effort, ect.

[RED DAVE]

I think theres a problem with the whole leftist college scene, not anything inherently wrong with it, its just that the prevailing attitude is that getting involved in radical politics is something that only students do, and people who get interested at a younger age are expected to "grow up & grow out" of their beliefs.

So in short younger comrades (like me and the college crowd) should be assured that they're not "just going through a phase," and that there is indeed a future in leftist ideals. Parties or other organizations capable of doing so shouldn't refrain from getting involved with students just because they might attend a bourgeois school.Yeah, I heard that shit literally 50 years old. "Anyone who isn't a socialist at 20 has no heart; anyone who's still a socialist at 30 has no brains." Fuck 'em. Ask 'em if Howard Zinn had no brains or Noam Chomsky or Einstein or Vanessa Redgrave.

RED DAVE

[The Vegan Marxist]

Yeah, I heard that shit literally 50 years old. "Anyone who isn't a socialist at 20 has no heart; anyone who's still a socialist at 30 has no brains." Fuck 'em. Ask 'em if Howard Zinn had no brains or Noam Chomsky or Einstein or Vanessa Redgrave.

RED DAVE

Or Helen Keller for that matter.

[CartCollector]

Glenn Beck, even on his show, has talked about bearing arms against the 'Socialist' government.

Let him. Then he'll get arrested for sedition when one of his followers bears arms against the government. Then again, this plan will fail for two reasons:
1. If someone does commit a violent act against the US government, and it can be shown that they were inspired to do so by Glenn Beck's show, the US government will be very lenient towards Beck unless he says very specific actions that people would have to take against the government. Also, something tells me that a cable news channel can afford very good lawyers.
2. Tea partyers are too lazy to bear arms against the government.

On point 2: The Tea Party is named after an event in American history where patriots grabbed barrels of tea on British ships docked in the Massachusetts harbor and chucked it into the sea. Does anyone think that tea partyers would be capable of something even remotely close to that? It's much easier to just sit back, listen to some music in a park, and complain how the evil socialists are ruining America and wave around a sign with a picture of Barack Obama with a Hitler moustache. Seriously that's all the "Tea Party" is.