Long Live Mugabe's Socialist Conservatism!!!

[Patchd]

Lol, this is interesting;

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/zimbabwe/7370383/Robert-Mugabe-gives-David-Cameron-election-backing.html


The Zimbabwe president said his country would have better relations with London if the Conservatives got in.

"We have always related better with the British through the Conservatives than Labour," he said. "We have a better chance with David Cameron than with Brown."


"Conservatives are bold, Blair and Brown run away when they see me, but not these fools, they know how to relate to others."

[Robocommie]

Hah, so would this help Cameron in the UK or hurt him?

[Patchd]

It probably won't make much, if not any difference. Might get in the papers a bit, cause a bit of a stir, Labour will use it, and everyone else will get on with their shopping and work and going out.

[Crux]

Would make for some pretty funny campaign posters though. "Tories - Mugabe's Choice"

[RadioRaheem84]

Mugabe is such an embarrassment. Thank God people have enough sense not to conflate him with socialism.

[scarletghoul]

Mugabe's alright imho. But yeah this is annoying. Ah well, I guess he's just looking at it through the lens of foreign policy, in which case it kinda makes sense.

[Red Commissar]

"Conservatives are bold, Blair and Brown run away when they see me, but not these fools, they know how to relate to others."

So does Mugabe like it rough or something?

[Crux]

Who will you be campaigning for?
The Socialist Justice Party. Why?

[Crux]

Mugabe's alright imho. But yeah this is annoying. Ah well, I guess he's just looking at it through the lens of foreign policy, in which case it kinda makes sense.
Alright? In what way?

[Bright Banana Beard]

Alright? In what way?I think he meant to say that Mugabe took out the racist white owners and reforms the land to the local African peasants, but this is hardly any progressive.

[punisa]

Mugabe is certainly not a role model for any leftist to look up to, but I'm not surprised that he does indeed get quite a bit of support from the international left.
Not because people think he is a genuine leftist, it's not about that.
This is more related to the chronic scarcity of any leader/group having even traces of progressive, anti-imperialist or similar ideologies built into them.

From that perspective Mugabe is "supported" by the left, similar situation that comes to mind is perhaps Hamas. No true revolutionary will say Hamas is progressive group that we should look up to, but in absence of any other resistance towards Zionist occupation.. anything goes.

[Revy]

Mugabe is a homophobic asshole who has said that gays were worse than pigs or dogs. :rolleyes:

and if you seriously believe that he gives a damn about the working class and the landless, well, you're probably the type who would fall for the idea that Gordon Brown's the British Lenin.

[Crux]

I think he meant to say that Mugabe took out the racist white owners and reforms the land to the local African peasants, but this is hardly any progressive.
Well that was like what 40 years ago? A lot has happened since.

[Bright Banana Beard]

Well that was like what 40 years ago? A lot has happened since.
The special case is that we still have majority of white owners in South Africa.

[Crux]

The special case is that we still have majority of white owners in South Africa.Heh, well, some revolutionary that Mugabe.

[RadioRaheem84]

Mugabe is certainly not a role model for any leftist to look up to, but I'm not surprised that he does indeed get quite a bit of support from the international left.
Not because people think he is a genuine leftist, it's not about that.
This is more related to the chronic scarcity of any leader/group having even traces of progressive, anti-imperialist or similar ideologies built into them.

From that perspective Mugabe is "supported" by the left, similar situation that comes to mind is perhaps Hamas. No true revolutionary will say Hamas is progressive group that we should look up to, but in absence of any other resistance towards Zionist occupation.. anything goes.


And this is the argument that pro war "leftists" use against us when saying that we support terrorism. They think that we'll support any reactionary group that is anti-imperialism including reactionary groups like Hamas and racist corrupt leaders like Mugabe.

[Crux]

Who are these mysterious pro-war leftist? The UN-troops kind?

[RadioRaheem84]

The usual types; Christopher Hitchens, Nick Cohen, Oliver Kamm, Salmun Rushdie

Then they've convinced the right that this is true so zany right wingers like David Horowitz write books that we're in cahoots with Islamic Terrorists because we think that any anti-globalization movement will do.

[bailey_187]

The usual types; Christopher Hitchens, Nick Cohen, Oliver Kamm, Salmun Rushdie

Then they've convinced the right that this is true so zany right wingers like David Horowitz write books that we're in cahoots with Islamic Terrorists because we think that any anti-globalization movement will do.

There's a difference between being a George Galloway and making apologies for Iran's homophobic laws, accusing anyone who criticises the reactionary Islamists for being "Islamophobic" (Hi SWP!) etc, and supporting anti-Imperialist movements. But this "support" is not sending money or anything to Hamas or even saying we want Hamas to be the leaders of Palestine, its simply saying, when the IDF and Hamas get into a gun fight - we want Hamas to outshoot them.

[Red Commissar]

Mugabe, like many other revolutionary leaders, adopted socialism out of convenience rather than a genuine commitment to the goal.

Some people will take it at face value and call Mugabe a socialist, as his party (ZANU-PF) claims to uphold socialist values (his supposed adherence to Marxist theory in the 1980s shows as much) but it's more heavily focused on nationalism with populist trappings. We tend to get these problems else where, such as the so-called "Arab socialism" that manifested in the Ba'ath's platform.

[Robocommie]

The usual types; Christopher Hitchens, Nick Cohen, Oliver Kamm, Salmun Rushdie

Then they've convinced the right that this is true so zany right wingers like David Horowitz write books that we're in cahoots with Islamic Terrorists because we think that any anti-globalization movement will do.

Fucking Christopher Hitchens. Is he aware of how we hate him and think he's a traitor?

[RadioRaheem84]

Fucking Christopher Hitchens. Is he aware of how we hate him and think he's a traitor?

He has gone beyond traitor. He thinks he's surpassed our ranks and ventured off into defending something even more worthy of fighting for; bourgeoisie liberty. He has transformed into a total bourgeoisie liberal, thinking that liberal democracy = freedom, a freedom more free than socialism.

He talks just like a TV pundit now, calling neo-liberals in the US 'the left' and saying that right wing conservatives fight fascism better than anti-globalization movements. It's really sad and strange to see him like this but apparently all of this is because we neglected to support Independent Kurdistan.

I mean for him to say that Tony Blair is a 'socialist' and that makes the Iraq War an anti-totalitarian left struggle is grasping at straws. Him knowing full well that Blair is not a socialist and even railed on against liberals in the 90s but now calling liberals, 'the left' is perplexing. Either he was bought off or he was a total charlatan the entire time!

[RadioRaheem84]

There's a difference between being a George Galloway and making apologies for Iran's homophobic laws, accusing anyone who criticises the reactionary Islamists for being "Islamophobic" (Hi SWP!) etc, and supporting anti-Imperialist movements. But this "support" is not sending money or anything to Hamas or even saying we want Hamas to be the leaders of Palestine, its simply saying, when the IDF and Hamas get into a gun fight - we want Hamas to outshoot them.

So in a gunfight you want Hamas to win because they're the only anti-imperialist force in Palestine at the moment? That's like saying you want the Crips to win in an LA shootout against the police because they're the only anti-police force in the neighborhood. I don't know, while Hamas may be charitible in the Gaza Strip, they're still a reactionary force. I agree that we should engage them in discussion and reveal truths when they're just slandered in the media but to advocate for their side to win in battle is another matter entire.

[mosfeld]

That's like saying you want the Crips to win in an LA shootout against the police because they're the only anti-police force in the neighborhood.

This is unreasonable because..?

[ls]

Who will you be campaigning for?

Mayakovsky doesn't even live in the UK or south Africa, no doubt he'll be campaigning for an MP position for his trotskyist party.

Anyway, a lot of people regardless of class and tendency (yep, not joking here when I say a lot of socialists too) think that Cameron is better than Brown, you could even say that Obama's calling Cameron "a lightweight" and supporting Brown makes Cameron the brilliant anti-imperialist choice, so clearly Cameron is a progressive revolutionary socialist who wants to build worker-cooperatives (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/7244376/Tories-plan-workers-co-operatives-for-public-sector.html) that we should be supporting 110%.

We need to get out onto the streets and support comrade Cameron in his struggle.

[Wanted Man]

:lol:

Anyway, what Mugabe says is basically true. A lot of social-democratic politicians take up "principled" human rights positions against a couple of third-world dictators (while continuing trade with other, less-known or more "acceptable" ones), whereas conservatives tend to be more pragmatic.

[RadioRaheem84]

This is unreasonable because..?

They sell smack to the neighbors, divide the workers into territorial sectors..... what the heck do you mean, why is it unreasonable?

Support anti-gang, anti-police brutality groups.

Social conditions in capitalist countries can create movements that are pathologically violent. Gangs are one of them. They are one group I am glad the cops bring down. Islamic terrorists, another. Not every anti-establishment group deserves our sympathy.

[RadioRaheem84]

:lol:

Anyway, what Mugabe says is basically true. A lot of social-democratic politicians take up "principled" human rights positions against a couple of third-world dictators (while continuing trade with other, less-known or more "acceptable" ones), whereas conservatives tend to be more pragmatic.


It's funny how third world despots tend to like conservative politicians in Western developed nations so much. Even if they tout to be all about 'socialism', 'nationalism' and the 'people'. They admire the conservatives 'real-politik".

[bailey_187]

They sell smack to the neighbors, divide the workers into territorial sectors..... what the heck do you mean, why is it unreasonable?

Support anti-gang, anti-police brutality groups.

Social conditions in capitalist countries can create movements that are pathologically violent. Gangs are one of them. They are one group I am glad the cops bring down. Islamic terrorists, another. Not every anti-establishment group deserves our sympathy.

But when a gang and police begin shooting at each other, who do you want to win? I dont want the police to win. That doesnt mean i am going to cheer them on when they are shotting crack etc. The same with Hamas and Israel. I will cheer Hamas when they fight the IDF, but i wont cheer them when they carry out reactionary domestic policies. Maybe some will or try to make apologies, deny it etc, but thats them, not me.

[RadioRaheem84]

I agree to an extent bailey but I think that I just wouldn't wish for either to win. We're enemies of both camps.

[bailey_187]

I agree to an extent bailey but I think that I just wouldn't wish for either to win. We're enemies of both camps.

I would like the PFLP to take out both Hamas and the IDF, but thats not happening. I would also like the Black Riders Liberation Party to take out both the Bloods/Crips and Police, but neither is that going to happen.

[RadioRaheem84]

I would like the PFLP to take out both Hamas and the IDF, but thats not happening. I would also like the Black Riders Liberation Party to take out both the Bloods/Crips and Police, but neither is that going to happen.

Me too but I still have hope that people will drop the zealots and the gangsters as more class consciousness happens around the world

[ls]

The workers have nothing to worry now that you have put this critique out. You're too awesome.:thumbup1:

What? Are you mocking comrade Cameron's revolutionary credentials? To the private bed chambers of Oxford (gulag) with you.

[Lenny Nista]

I think he meant to say that Mugabe took out the racist white owners and reforms the land to the local African peasants,

Well, a lot of it went to his political allies I think, but that which did go to peasants depended on political affiliation and ethnicity.

And this was only after years of implementing IMF policy, which took the country to such a social crisis that he was under immense pressure from the left to carry out land reform (ironically at the time this meant Morgan Tsvangirai, who ended up in an anti-Mugabe popular front with white landowners, which the International Socialists - SWP in Britain - also supported). So it was a measure to stave off the opposition and a potential readicalization.

[Lenny Nista]

I would like the PFLP to take out both Hamas and the IDF, but thats not happening. I would also like the Black Riders Liberation Party to take out both the Bloods/Crips and Police, but neither is that going to happen.

Difference being that Zanu PF have been in power for 30 years and have shown their true colours. It is hardly a "resistance movement" they are more comparable to El Fatah or the PRI than to Hamas.

[bailey_187]

Difference being that Zanu PF have been in power for 30 years and have shown their true colours. It is hardly a "resistance movement" they are more comparable to El Fatah or the PRI than to Hamas.

You would rather the pro-privatisation pro-imperialism pro-neocolonialism MDC were in power?

[Lenny Nista]

You would rather the pro-privatisation pro-imperialism pro-neocolonialism MDC were in power?

Did I say that?

Being slightly more "nationalist" than the MDC doesn't make Zanu PF comparable to Hamas. IF you make those kind of analogies then be prepared fors omeone to point out the difference.