The Fall of the Estonian Socialist Republic

[The Vegan Marxist]

I was wondering what everyone thought about how Estonia had gone through a lot of detrimental changes while it was part of the Soviet control? The reason I'm asking is because I was recently told by a friend of mine that he was talking to someone who hated communism because, according to him, it brought his country, Estonia, back to the stone age practically. So what are all of your thoughts on this particular subject?

[NecroCommie]

Estonia was in the stone age until the soviet union gave it access to unfathomable industrial improvements. The reason estonians are bitter is because a vast majority of them have been indoctrinated into disgusting nationalist cocks. And as it happens, the post Stalin SU was as russian-nationalist as it gets.

But really, it's a statistical fact that materially and economically Estonian commoner has never been better than during the soviet rule.
http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/bb-image001.png

Do notice how the estonian unemployment skyrockets as soon as the the eastern bloc is disbanded. While it starts to show some signs of calming, it escalates further upon independence.

http://wpcontent.answers.com/wikipedia/commons/5/53/Soviet_Union_Population.gif

This graph illustrates the population trends of the USSR and the FSU (Former Soviet Union). Tells something about what happened to the prerequisites of life for the general population.

I don't have to like Gorbatchev to understand that almost anything is better than the current bloodthirsty rulers of estonia and the baltic.

[Red Commissar]

I was wondering what everyone thought about how Estonia had gone through a lot of detrimental changes while it was part of the Soviet control? The reason I'm asking is because I was recently told by a friend of mine that he was talking to someone who hated communism because, according to him, it brought his country, Estonia, back to the stone age practically. So what are all of your thoughts on this particular subject?

You generally get this behavior from Poles and citizens of the Baltic States.

And speaking from their perspective, they might be referring to food shortages, queues, repression, and the state of industries and infrastructure. However, it's stupid to associate this as a fault of communism rather than soviet imperialism, but it gives them an easy explanation to argue their issues on. It also makes them more able to get favor from western states.

Though I've generally seen this as more of animosity rooted in ethnic/national concerns rather than ideological. The Soviet Union was by and large associated with the Russians, with whom the Baltic states have traditionally had conflicts with over their sovereignty. For one thing, they were very eager to join NATO as a guarantee to be secure from Russia. In short it's really nationalist nonsense.

[The Vegan Marxist]

Estonia was in the stone age until the soviet union gave it access to unfathomable industrial improvements. The reason estonians are bitter is because a vast majority of them have been indoctrinated into disgusting nationalist cocks. And as it happens, the post Stalin SU was as russian-nationalist as it gets.

But really, it's a statistical fact that materially and economically Estonian commoner has never been better than during the soviet rule.
http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/bb-image001.png

Do notice how the estonian unemployment skyrockets as soon as the the eastern bloc is disbanded. While it starts to show some signs of calming, it escalates further upon independence.

http://wpcontent.answers.com/wikipedia/commons/5/53/Soviet_Union_Population.gif

This graph illustrates the population trends of the USSR and the FSU (Former Soviet Union). Tells something about what happened to the prerequisites of life for the general population.

I don't have to like Gorbatchev to understand that almost anything is better than the current bloodthirsty rulers of estonia and the baltic.

I love the graphs you provided. Where exactly did you gather them from?


You generally get this behavior from Poles and citizens of the Baltic States.

And speaking from their perspective, they might be referring to food shortages, queues, repression, and the collapsing industries and infrastructure. However, it's stupid to associate this as a fault of communism rather than soviet imperialism, but it gives them an easy explanation to argue their issues on. It also makes them more able to get favor from western states.

Though I've generally seen this as more of animosity rooted in ethnic/national concerns rather than ideological. The Soviet Union was by and large associated with the Russians, with whom the Baltic states have traditionally had conflicts with over their sovereignty. For one thing, they were very eager to join NATO as a guarantee to be secure from Russia.

But how did Soviet Imperialism directly put into effect the disasters that started taking place within Estonia? I've never really seem a connection between the two, though I haven't been studying this particular incident very well.

[NecroCommie]

I love the graphs you provided. Where exactly did you gather them from?

I turn googling into an art-form. :cool:

Try picture-googling with search-words such as "Estonia unemployment", "Economy soviet-republic", And you might end up with a handful of useful pages.

[khad]

Estonian nationalism is linked to fascism. It's no secret that these Baltic nationalists hold marches in honor of their SS veterans.

As for the political repression, when these Baltic states achieved an even higher kill rate of their Jewish minority than the Nazis in Germany (I believe only 6 Latvian Jews were known to have survived the war), at the very least you'd expect a few tens of thousands of collaborator scum to be detained after the war. These nationalists cry and cry, but they never want to take responsibility for their actions.

And yes, the Soviet Union industrialized their countries and provided a higher quality of living for them than further east. This is what I recall looking at basic indicators such as meat consumption [no offense intended] of Poland and the Pact states vs the USSR proper. Furthermore, the theory of economic exploitation is bullshit, because records show that COMECON traded consistently at a loss.

[Red Commissar]

But how did Soviet Imperialism directly put into effect the disasters that started taking place within Estonia? I've never really seem a connection between the two, though I haven't been studying this particular incident very well.

As far as I know most Soviet efforts in the industry and infrastructure of the Baltic areas were for ports and in Estonia's case, oil shale to be used for Leningrad's energy usage. The port cities were filled with Russians or pro-Russian elements and benefited from the ship-building and industrial economy.

As far as I know the Baltic States did develop during Soviet times, the things they are claiming is that they could have progressed even further with out the Soviet Union, which is similar to claims of apologists for the Czarist regime of Russia make, such as Solzhenitsyn.

The Baltic SSR's ultimately fell the same way the other ones went. Russia's economy went completely in the trasher in the 1980s, and with the inability to deliver consumer goods people became more susceptible to nationalist elements to "liberate" themselves.

However I'm not justifying the Estonian claims. Again most of these "claims" are based heavily on nationalism that tends to set them against anything related to Russia. There were issues but the nationalists tend to blow them greatly out of proportion or act like it was purely exploitation from Moscow, which benefits their political careers by letting them side-step present issues by blaming them on the past.

I'm just explaining how these claims continue to find followers in the Baltic States.

[The Vegan Marxist]

As far as I know most Soviet efforts in the industry and infrastructure of the Baltic areas were for ports and in Estonia's case, oil shale to be used for Leningrad's energy usage. The port cities were filled with Russians or pro-Russian elements and benefited from the ship-building and industrial economy.

As far as I know the Baltic States did develop during Soviet times, the things they are claiming is that they could have progressed even further with out the Soviet Union, which is similar to claims of apologists for the Czarist regime of Russia make, such as Solzhenitsyn.

The Baltic SSR's ultimately fell the same way the other ones went. Russia's economy went completely in the trasher in the 1980s, and with the inability to deliver consumer goods people became more susceptible to nationalist elements to "liberate" themselves.

However I'm not justifying the Estonian claims. Again most of these "claims" are based heavily on nationalism that tends to set them against anything related to Russia. There were issues but the nationalists tend to blow them greatly out of proportion or act like it was purely exploitation from Moscow, which benefits their political careers by letting them side-step present issues by blaming them on the past.

I'm just explaining how these claims continue to find followers in the Baltic States.

The annexations that were taking place, were they to make sure Estonian territories were within control of the Soviets instead of Nazi Germany invading them & taking control? From what I can see, the annexations were safety protocols against Nazi Germany.

[Red Commissar]

The annexations that were taking place, were they to make sure Estonian territories were within control of the Soviets instead of Nazi Germany invading them & taking control? From what I can see, the annexations were safety protocols against Nazi Germany.

The Soviets moved to annex the Baltic states only after Germany had agreed to secede it to their sphere of influence as per the conditions of the non-aggression pact. The Soviet Union had attempted to keep them from seceding during the course of the Russian Civil War and as such never truly recognized them as being independent. Bringing them back in the fold was mainly to get reliable warm water ports in the Baltics that the Soviet Union lacked (and had been the original reason behind the Russian Empire's conquest of the region in the first place).

Khad mentioned earlier that when the Nazis moved into the Baltic States, a lot of their nationalists were eager to help out the fascists, because of their sheer hatred towards the Soviet Union and illusions that they would finally be "independent" again. Similar to the situation that was seen in the Ukraine and among certain cossack tribes.

Again, most of their arguments are heavily rooted in nationalist themes. Their politicians are still using these things to build up popular support and side-step economic issues as being the fault of Soviet mis-management and "exploitation".

[Ismail]

I mention the Baltic states (and Poland) in this article: http://www.revleft.com/vb/anti-imperialism-nationalist-t128292/index.html?t=128292

Devils in Amber: The Baltics remains a good book on the subject from the pre-revolutionary governments to the Baltics leaving the Union, and even though it's focused on Lithuania, it does give some attention to Estonia and Latvia. As previously noted, there was no social-imperialism in the Baltics, nor was there national chauvinism. The 3 Baltic states profited much from being in the Union and were guaranteed cultural autonomy and Republic status.


The Soviets moved to annex the Baltic states only after Germany had agreed to secede it to their sphere of influence as per the conditions of the non-aggression pact. The Soviet Union had attempted to keep them from seceding during the course of the Russian Civil War and as such never truly recognized them as being independent. Bringing them back in the fold was mainly to get reliable warm water ports in the Baltics that the Soviet Union lacked (and had been the original reason behind the Russian Empire's conquest of the region in the first place).This is basically correct, although the USSR did recognize the 3 states per treaties and so on. It wasn't like, say, Bessarabia, where the USSR never recognized it as being a part of Romania from 1919 or so onwards.


Again, most of their arguments are heavily rooted in nationalist themes. Their politicians are still using these things to build up popular support and side-step economic issues as being the fault of Soviet mis-management and "exploitation".Yes. And it is always negative to see leftists defend the three Baltic states under reactionary rulers simply because "Oh, well, self-determination! That clearly means that a bourgeois state must exist, right? Surely it can't mean the equality of nationalities and the end of exploitation of said nationalities. Ergo Stalin = Hitler."

According to Bonosky, writer of the aforementioned Baltics book, nationalism was king during this period. "For a brief period, because of his perceived defiance of the 'big' Party, Brazauskas [revisionist leader of the Communist Part of Lithuania] became the most 'popular' personality in Lithuania, and a poll taken in June 1989 gave him an 84% 'approval rating,' some 14 points above Vytautas Landsbergis [nationalist leader].'


... He chose the route of 'independence,' and in effect he handed over what authority he had to Sajudis [nationalist movement]. And in that act he committed political suicide." (p. 275) Also, "In Latvia, 125,000 voted against secession. In Estonia, a bit more." (p. 262)

Furthermore, on the Lithuanian Supreme Soviet at the time:

"On the same day, March 11, 1990, the knocked-together parliament elected Landsbergis 'President' with less than 133 delegates voting, and also voted for a new Constitution, which expressly annulled its socialist character...

By no stretch of the imagination could the Congress, presumably voted into power in March, be considered democratic. Not only did it come to power on a wave of unparalleled demagogy, but, even statistically, it could not honestly claim to be representative of the will of the people. The Supreme Soviet was elected by only 41.2 percent of the votes, of which only 30.4 percent went to Sajudis...

The vote was widely reported in the Western press as a vote for 'independence.' In December, 1990, a public poll had shown that 70 percent of those responding supported continued socialism...

The Constitution was not offered to the people for discussion and adoption. No referendum was held. It was 'adopted' by a show of hands of less than 200 men (and some women) in the new parliament! So much for democracy. Later, many referendums were held in the spirit of: do you want to be free or slave? What are called 'ice cream questions:' do you like ice cream? But the main referendum, held on a Union-wide basis on March 17, 1991, Landsbergis was afraid to hold. He ordered it boycotted and, advisedly, for over 80 percent of the Soviet people voted to remain a Union.

To forestall the March 17th nationwide referendum, whose results could be catastrophic to secessionists, Landsbergis ordered a referendum of his own on February 9th. The Lithuanians were asked the 'Do you like ice cream question?' That is: 'Are you in favor of an independent democratic republic?' Is there anyone on earth who is in favor of a dependent, undemocratic republic?

In any case, asserting that the Lithuanians had spoken—for 90 percent of the 80 percent who voted of course voted affirmatively—Landsbergis refused to allow Lithuanians to vote in the March 17th referendum, which asked whether they wished to preserve the Union as a renovated 'federation of equal sovereign republics.'" (pp. 260-261.)

Furthermore, "Changes in the Constitution were accompanied by threats. Thousands of Lithuanians opposed secession and a mass meeting of 180,000 in Vilnius on March 18, 1990 denounced the move to secession as 'an unconstitutional coup.'" (p. 263.)

[NecroCommie]

Estonian nationalism is linked to fascism. It's no secret that these Baltic nationalists hold marches in honor of their SS veterans.

Nor is it a secret that almost all of the nationalist leaders are either ex-SS men themselves, or direct decendants from nazi collaborators.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-PPPJqJj8g

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VsENOy2I1II&feature=related