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Kokane
4th March 2010, 03:16
The leftist press has just demonstrated once again that racism, and especially anti-Semitism, is somehow the great alibi of the anti-fascist: It is their cause célèbre and always their last refuge in discussions. Who can withstand the evocation of the extermination camps and the death furnaces? Who doesn't bow their head before the six million assassinated Jews? Who doesn't shudder before the sadism of the Nazis? Nevertheless, it is one of the anti-fascists' most scandalous mystifications, as we propose here to demonstrate.

A recent leaflet of the M.R.A.P. (Movement against Racism, Anti-semitism and for Peace) attributed to Nazism the blame for the death of 50 million human beings, of whom 6 million were Jews. This position identical to the fascist warmongers slogan of self-styled communists, is typically bourgeois. In refusing to see that capitalism itself is the cause of the crises and cataclysms that periodically ravage the globe, the bourgeois ideologues and reformists have always pretended instead to explain them by each other's wickedness. One can see here the fundamental similarity of the ideologies (if one dares say it) of fascism and anti-fascism. Both proclaim that it is thoughts, ideas, the will of human groupings which determine social phenomena. Against these ideologies, which we call bourgeois because both defend capitalism, against all these faded idealists, of today and tomorrow, Marxism has demonstrated that it is, on the contrary, social relations which determine the movement of ideas. This is the keystone of Marxism, and in order to see to what a degree pseudo-Marxists have disowned it, it is sufficient to point out that as far as they are concerned, everything comes about through ideas: colonialism, imperialism, capitalism itself, are nothing more than mental states. And to cap it all, the evils that humanity suffer are due to evil doers: misery mongers, oppression mongers, war mongers etc. Marxism has demonstrated that on the contrary misery, oppression, wars of destruction, far from being anomalies caused through deliberately malevolent wills, are part of the normal functioning of capitalism. This is particularly so in the epoch of wars of Imperialism, a theme we will develop further because of the important way in which it bears on our subject: the question of destruction.

Even though our bourgeois' or reformists recognise that Imperialist wars are caused though conflicts of interests, they fall well short of arriving at an understanding of capitalism. One can see it in their total lack of understanding of the basic causes of destruction. For them, the aim of war is to obtain victory, and the destruction of the adversary's installations and people are merely the means for the attainment of this end. This is believed to the extent that some innocents predict a war won through dosing the enemy with some kind of sleeping draught! We have shown that the reverse is true; that destruction is the principal aim of the war. The Imperialist rivalries, which are the immediate cause of wars, are themselves only the consequence of ever increasing over-production. Capitalist production is effectively impelled into war because of the fall in the rate of profit and the crisis born of the necessity of continually increasing production whilst remaining unable to dispose of the products. War is the capitalist solution to the crisis: the massive destruction of people remedies the periodic overpopulation which goes hand in hand with overproduction. You would have to be an illuminated petit-bourgeois to believe that imperialist conflicts could be regulated as easily as in a game of cards or in a roundtable, and that this enormous destructiveness and the death of tens of millions of men are through the 'obstinacy' of some, and the 'evil' and 'greed' of others.

Marx in 1844 was already reproaching the Bourgeois economists who considered greed as being innate, explaining it by showing why the greedy were obliged to be greedy. Also from 1844, Marxism demonstrated the causes of overpopulation:

The demand for men necessarily governs the production of men, as of any commodity. If supply increases over demand a number of workers become paupers or die of starvation Marx in "Ökonomisch-philosophische Manuskripte."

Engels wrote in "Umrisse zu einer Kritik der Nationalökonomie":
"The population is only too large where the productive power as a whole is too large" and "...(we have seen) that private property has turned man into a commodity whose production and destruction also depend solely on demand; how the system of competition has thus slaughtered, and daily continues to slaughter, millions of men."

The last war, far from weakening Marxism and demonstrating that it has 'had its day' has exactly confirmed our expectations. It was necessary to recall these points, before taking up the matter of the extermination of the Jews, so as to draw attention to the fact that it took place not at any old time, but precisely at the time of an acute crisis and within an imperialist war. It is accordingly within the context of this gigantic destructive undertaking that it is possible to explain it. The problem can then be cleared up not by trying to explain the destructive nihilism of the Nazis, but rather why the destruction concentrated itself largely on the Jews. On this point also, Nazis and anti-fascists are agreed: It is racism; a hatred of Jews and a ferocious and uncontrollable 'passion' that caused the death of the Jews. But, as Marxists, we know that social passions don't have a life of their own, that nothing is more determined than these big movements of collective hatred. We will see that the study of anti-Semitism within the imperialist epoch confirms this.

We emphasise that we are talking of anti-Semitism in the Imperialist epoch, for whilst idealists of all shades, from Nazis to Jewish theoreticians, claim that the hatred of Jews has been the same at all times and in all places, we know it to be nothing of the sort. The anti-Semitism of recent times is totally different from that during Feudalism. We won't go into the history of Jews here, which Marxism has already entirely explained. But we can say we know why feudal society preserved the Jews as such; we know that whilst the strong Bourgeoisies, i.e. those that had been able to make an early political revolution (England, U.S.A., France) had virtually entirely assimilated their Jews, the weaker Bourgeoisies hadn't been able to do this. We haven't explained here the survival of the Jews, but the anti-Semitism of the imperialist epoch. And it will not be so difficult to explain if instead of occupying ourselves with the nature of Jews or anti-Semites, we look at the place of Jews in society.

As a result of their previous history, the Jews find themselves today mainly in the middle and petit-bourgeoisie. A class condemned by the irresistible concentration of capital. It is this which shows us what is at the source of anti-Semitism.

Engels said: "(it is...) nothing other than a reaction of social feudal strata, doomed to disappear, against modern society with its essential composition of capitalists and wage-earners. It therefore serves only reactionary objectives disguised under a socialist mask."

Germany between the Wars illustrated this phenomena in a particularly acute form. Shattered by the war and the revolutionary thrust of 1918-28, and menaced at all times by the proletariat, German capitalism suffered deeply from the world crisis after the war. Whereas the stronger victorious bourgeoisies (U.S.A., France, Britain) emerged relatively unscathed and easily got over the adaptation to the peace economy crisis, German Capitalism was overtaken by a total depression. And it was probably the small and petit-bourgeoisie that suffered most of all, as in all crises which lead to the proletarianisation of the middle classes and to a concentration of capital enabled by the elimination of a proportion of small and medium sized businesses. But in this instance, it was such that the ruined, bankrupted, dispossessed, and liquidated petit- bourgeoisie couldn't even descend into the proletariat, who were themselves affected badly by unemployment (7 million unemployed at the worst point of the crisis); they therefore fell directly into a state of pauperism, condemned to die of starvation when their reserves were gone. It is in reaction to this terrible menace that the petit-bourgeoisies invented anti-Semitism. Not so much, as metaphysicians would have it, to explain the misfortunes that hit them, but rather to preserve themselves by concentrating on one of its groups. Against the terrible economic depression, against the many and varied destructions that made the existence of each of its members uncertain, the petit-bourgeoisie reacted by sacrificing one of its groupings, hoping thereby to save and assure the existence of the others. Anti-Semitism originated no more from a Machiavellian plan than from perverse ideas: it resulted directly from the constraints of the economy. The hatred of Jews, far from being the a priori reason for their destruction, represented only the desire to delimit and concentrate the destruction on them.

It eventually came about that even the workers succumbed to racism; when menaced by massive unemployment the proletariat tend to concentrate on certain groups: Italians, Poles or 'Coons', 'Wogs', Arabs etc. But these tendencies occurred only at the worst moments of demoralisation, and tended not to last long. From the moment when they enter the struggle, the proletariat sees clearly and concretely who the enemy is. But, whilst the proletariat, is a homogeneous class that has a historical perspective and mission, the petit-bourgeoisie by contrast is a condemned class, and as a result it is condemned never to understand power, and is incapable of struggle; all it can do is merely flounder about blindly, crushed from both sides. Racism isn't an aberration of the spirit. It is and will be the petit-bourgeois reaction to the pressure of big capital. The choice of race, that's to say, the group on which the destruction is concentrated, depends on the circumstances of course. In Germany, the Jews were the only ones to 'fit the bill': They were almost exclusively petit-bourgeois, and within the petit- bourgeoisie itself they were the only group sufficiently identifiable. It was on them alone that the petit-bourgeoisie could concentrate the catastrophe. It was particularly important that identification present no difficulty, and to have the means to define exactly who would be destroyed and who would be spared. Thus logic would be finally well and truly thrown out of the window with the allowance made for grandfathers who had been baptised; thereby flagrantly contradicting the theories of race and blood and serving to demonstrate the incoherence of these theories. As usual though, Democrats, who content themselves with demonstrating the absurdity and ignominy of racism, miss the point.

Tormented by capital, the German petit-bourgeoisie had thrown the Jews to the wolves to ease its burden. This was certainly not done in a conscious way, but this was what lay behind its hatred of the Jews and of the satisfaction it derived from the closing down and pillaging of Jewish shops. It could be said that Big Capital from its point of view was delighted with this stroke of luck: it was able to liquidate a part of the petit-bourgeoisie with the petit-bourgeoisie's permission; even better, this same petit-bourgeoisie took charge of the liquidation. But this personalised image is not the best way of presenting capital, for it is important to point out that capitalism, no more than the petit-bourgeois, was not aware what it was doing. It was suffering economic constraints and followed passively the line of least resistance.

We haven't said anything about the German proletariat because it didn't intervene directly in this affair. It had been beaten and, take note, the liquidation of the Jews wouldn't be possible until after its defeat. But the social forces that had led to this liquidation existed before the defeat of the proletariat. Its had only allowed these forces to realise this liquidation by leaving Capital's hands free.

It was at this point that the economic liquidation commenced: expropriation in all its forms, eviction from the liberal professions, from administration etc. Little by little, Jews were deprived of all means of existence, having to live on any reserve they had managed to save. During the whole of this period up to the latter part of the war, the politics of the Nazis towards the Jews hung on two words: Juden raus! Jews out! Every means was found to ease Jewish emigration. But if the Nazis intended only to throw out the Jews whom they didn't know what to do with, and if the Jews for their part only wanted to leave Germany, nobody else would allow them to enter. And this isn't really so astonishing if one considers that nobody could let them enter: there just weren't any countries capable of absorbing and providing a living to millions of ruined petit-bourgeois, only a tiny fraction had been able to leave, The greater part remained, unfortunately for them and unfortunately for the Nazis. Suspended in mid-air as it were.
The imperialist war was to aggravate the situation both qualitatively and quantitatively. Quantitatively, because German capital, obliged to reduce the petty-bourgeoisie so as to concentrate European capital in its hands, had extended the liquidation of Jews to the whole of central Europe. Anti-Semitism had proved its worth; it need only continue. It found an echo, moreover, in the indigenous anti-Semitism of central Europe, which was more complex, being an unpleasant mixture of feudal and petit-bourgeois anti-Semitism which we won't go into here. At the same time the situation was aggravated qualitatively. Conditions of life were made harder by the war and the Jewish reserves fell; they were condemned to die of starvation before long. In normal times, when it only affects a few, capitalism can leave those people rejected from the production process to perish alone. But in the middle of a war, when it involved millions, this was impossible. Such disorder would have paralysed it. It was therefore necessary for capitalism to organise their death.

It didn't kill them straightaway though. To begin with, it took them out of circulation, it regrouped and concentrated them. And it worked them to death. Killing men through work is one of capitalism's oldest tricks. Marx wrote in 1844: "...to meet with success, industrial competition requires numerous armies that can be concentrated in one place and copiously decimated."

It was required of course that these people defray their expenses whilst they were still alive, and of their ensuing deaths. And that they produce surplus-value for as long as possible. For capitalism couldn't execute the men it had condemned - unless it could profit from the very execution itself.

But people are very tough. Even when reduced to skeletons, they weren't dying fast enough. It was necessary to massacre those who couldn't work, and then those for whom there was no more need, because the avatars of war had rendered their labour useless. German capitalism was uncomfortable however with assassination pure and simple, not on humanitarian grounds certainly, but because it got nothing out of it. From this was born the mission of Joel Brand, to which we refer because of the light it sheds on the answerability of global capitalism as a whole (see "L'Histoire de Joel Brand" by A. Weissberg, Éditions du Seuil). Joel Brand was one of the leaders of a semi-clandestine organisation of Hungarian Jews. This organisation was trying to save Jews by every possible means; hiding places, illegal immigration, as also by corruption of the SS. The SS Judenkommando tolerated these organisations which they tried more or less to use as auxiliaries in the sorting out and gathering operations.

In April 1944, Joel Brand was summoned to the Judenkommando in Budapest to meet Eichmann, who was head of the Jewish section of the SS. Eichmann, with the approval of Himmler, charged him, with the following mission: to go to the Anglo-Americans to negotiate the sale of a million Jews. The SS asked in exchange 10,000 lorries, but were ready to bargain, as much on the nature as on the quantity of the merchandise. They proposed as well the freeing of 100,000 Jews - on the official acceptance of the agreement to show good faith. It was a serious business.

Unfortunately, if the supply existed, the demand didn't. Not only the Jews, but the SS had been taken in by the humanitarian propaganda of the allies! The allies didn't want these millions of Jews. Not for 10,000 lorries, not for 5,000, not even for none at all.
We can't enter into details about the misadventures of Joel Brand here. He left through Turkey and languished in the English prisons of the near-east. With the allies refusing to take the affair seriously, doing everything to stifle and discredit him. Finally in Cairo, Joel Brand met Lord Moyne, the British minister for the near east. He entreated his to obtain, at least a written agreement for the release, which would at least save 100,000 lives:

"And what would the final total be?"
"Eichmann spoke of a million."
"How can you imagine such a thing, Mister Brand. What can I do with this million Jews? Where can I put them? Who will receive them?"
"If the Earth hasn't any more room for us, there remains only for us to be exterminated." came the desperate reply from Brand.

The SS had been slow to comprehend: they themselves believed in Western ideas! After the failure of Joel Brand's mission and in the midst of the exterminations, they tried again to sell the Jews to the Joint (the Jewish American organisation), even depositing an account of 1700 Jews in Switzerland. But apart from that, the matter was never brought to a conclusion.

Joel Brand had almost grasped the situation. He had understood what the situation was, but not why it was so. It wasn't the Earth that didn't have anymore room, but Capitalist society. And for their part, not because they were Jews, but because rejected from the process of production, useless to production.

Lord Moyne was later assassinated by two Jewish terrorists, and J. Brand learned later that he had often sympathised with the tragic destiny of the Jews. "His politics were dictated to him by the inhuman London administration." But Brand, who we here refer to for the last time, hadn't understood that this administration is merely the administration of capital, and that it is capital which is inhuman. And capital didn't know what to do with these people. It didn't even know what to do with the rare survivors, those displaced persons whom nobody knew where to put.

The surviving Jews succeeded in finally making room for themselves. Through force, and by profiting from the International conjuncture, the state of Israel was formed. But even this had been possible only by 'displacing' the indigenous population: hundreds of thousands of refugee Arabs from then on would drag out their useless (to Capital!) existence in the resettlement camps.

We have seen how capitalism condemned millions of men to death by expelling them from production. We have seen how it massacred them, in such a way as to extract from them as much surplus value as possible. It is left to us to see how it still exploited them after their death, how it exploited their death itself.

First of all, there are the imperialists of the allied camp, who used the deaths to justify their war, and following their victory to justify the infamous treatment they inflicted on the Germans. Such as the swooping on the camps and the corpses, walking around everywhere with horrible photos and proclaiming "See what bastards the Boche are! We certainly had good reason to fight them! And how justified we are now to give them a taste of pain!" When one reflects on the countless crimes of Imperialism: when it is considered for example that even at the moment (1945) when people like Thorez [the PCF leader] were singing their victory over fascism, 45,000 Algerians (fascist provocateurs!) fell under the blows of repression; when it is considered that it is Global capitalism which is responsible for the massacres, the shameless cynicism of such hypocritical satisfaction makes one feel truly disgusted.

Meanwhile all our good democratic anti-fascists hurled themselves on the corpses of the Jews. And ever since they have waved them under the noses of the proletariat. To make it aware of the infamy of Capitalism? Why no, quite the contrary: to make it appreciate, by way of contrast, true democracy, true progress and the well-being it enjoys within Capitalist society! The horrors of capitalist death are supposed to make the proletariat forget the horrors of capitalist life, and the fact that the both are inextricably linked! The experiments of the SS doctors are supposed to make the proletariat forget that capitalism experiments on a large scale with carcinogens, the effects of alchohol on heredity, with the radio-activity of the 'democratic' bombs. If the lampshades of human skin are put on display, it is in order to make us forget that capitalism has transformed living man into lampshades. The mountains of hair, gold teeth, and bodies of men, become merchandise, are supposed to make us forget that capitalism has made living man into merchandise. It is the work, even the life of man, which capitalism has transformed into merchandise.

It is this which is the source of all evils. Using the corpses of the victims of capital to try to bury this truth, to make the corpses serve to protect capital. Surely this must be the most infamous exploitation of all.

Source: Communist Left, No. 6, July - December, 1993; translated from La Gauche Communiste, no. 13., 1987. Original in Programme Communiste, N. 11, 1960.

9
4th March 2010, 04:46
This is actually one of the best explanations for this I have read. Thanks for posting it.

Devrim
4th March 2010, 08:42
Yes, I think that this is quite an interesting article. It was written by Bordiga.

Devrim

vyborg
4th March 2010, 08:45
As always, good critics against Stalinists but a completely mechanical way to put arguments. Marxist is far beyond that

Kokane
4th March 2010, 08:47
It was published anonymously, although its probable he wrote it.

black magick hustla
4th March 2010, 09:01
To be honest, I think the strength of Bordiga was his clarity and theoretical rigidity. Appart from his really doctrinaire conception of the party, I think he was the most brilliant theoretician of the 20th century.

Kokane
4th March 2010, 09:06
I think some of the statements are mechanical, reductionist and possibly crude.

But I agree with the general sentiment of the article, that one can't view the Holocaust, or any genocide, and hence any war, as an anomaly or as separate from capitalism or class society.

& that the real crudeness is capitalism using the genocide to justify itself and its 'democratic order' or as an excuse to further other massacres and oppression (e.g. Palestine).

Gilles Duave wrote a similarly themed article in Fascism/Anti-Fascism.

9
4th March 2010, 10:16
What about this I think is so interesting (to me, anyway) is the explanation for the exterminations. I have had the idea in the back of my mind for a while now that there must have been a concrete motive (not just the ideological or political or psychological etc. motives which people like to attribute it to, but actually a material incentive/reason) for the exterminations. Most of the explanations I have heard and read basically consist of the idea that the Holocaust was the product of “capitalism gone insane” or “imperialism gone berserk” or some other catchy phrase which strikes me - when it comes down to it - as being just an eloquent way of saying “we don’t have a damn clue how to explain it”. And it seems that the really popular, pervasive sentiment is that there is just absolutely no explanation whatsoever on any rational level for the exterminations; I just have a hard time with that. Maybe it is true, but I don’t think so. So while this article doesn’t go terribly in depth, it does at least offer a rudimentary attempt at an explanation in that regard, and it is the first analysis I have read to do so. I’m sure there are others, but I have not yet come across them.

RED DAVE
4th March 2010, 12:40
A seminal work by a Belgian Trotskyist who was killed during the War.

The Jewish Question by Abram Leon (http://www.marxists.de/religion/leon/)

RED DAVE

SocialismOrBarbarism
4th March 2010, 14:08
Here are some good articles that further elaborate on this:

http://www.wsws.org/articles/1997/apr1997/fasc-a17.shtml

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2008/feb2008/book-f08.shtml

punisa
4th March 2010, 14:41
really a great article, thanks for posting.
One question:
Why did the German petit-bourgeoisie exactly want Jews out of the way?
Economically speaking, how would such a move prevent further proletarization in the times of financial crisis?

I understand that it was easy to label them as a group, but are we talking about simple plan of reducing competition on the market or something else?

chegitz guevara
4th March 2010, 16:21
This doesn't belong in Politics, but in Articles.

Also, not a very good article.

Devrim
4th March 2010, 17:22
It was published anonymously, although its probable he wrote it.

I think that it is known that he actually wrote it. The Bordigists did, and still do, publish everything anonymously. It is a part of their rejection of the 'cult of personality'.


Most of the explanations I have heard and read basically consist of the idea that the Holocaust was the product of “capitalism gone insane” or “imperialism gone berserk” or some other catchy phrase which strikes me - when it comes down to it - as being just an eloquent way of saying “we don’t have a damn clue how to explain it”. And it seems that the really popular, pervasive sentiment is that there is just absolutely no explanation whatsoever on any rational level for the exterminations; I just have a hard time with that.

Yes, I think that this is quite important. In the standard bourgeois, and most leftist analysis fascism appears as an aberration, not as a form of management of capital, and genocide appears as a terrible unique event, not something that capitalism constantly recreates.

Devrim

YKTMX
4th March 2010, 20:19
I can't honestly believe this infamous article is being offered up as a positive example of "Marxist" thought!

Utterly disrgraceful.


If the lampshades of human skin are put on display, it is in order to make us forget that capitalism has transformed living man into lampshades. The mountains of hair, gold teeth, and bodies of men, become merchandise, are supposed to make us forget that capitalism has made living man into merchandise. It is the work, even the life of man, which capitalism has transformed into merchandise.


This is pissin' on the victims of the Holocaust - and in service of what?

Another thing: Bordiga's behaviour at the time of Mussolini's rise was utterly disastorous. This is a man whose ultra-left, ultra-sectarian lunancy created the conditions for a fascist victory.

And then, after the war's over, he criticises "anti-fascists" and proclaims fascism and anti-fascism homologous. And in doing so writes this horrible, insidious, nasty, meat-headed polemic arguing that the deliberate, scienitific massacre of 6 million men, woman, and children was, as Le Pen might put, a "minor detail".

This shit should be removed and you should all be thoroughly ashamed of yourselves.

black magick hustla
4th March 2010, 21:09
This is pissin' on the victims of the Holocaust - and in service of what?


I don't think he is pissing on Holocaust victims? His position was that it was clearly capital approaching barbarism. What else do you want him to say?




Another thing: Bordiga's behaviour at the time of Mussolini's rise was utterly disastorous. This is a man whose ultra-left, ultra-sectarian lunancy created the conditions for a fascist victory.
I don't think this is true. Fascism more or less arose after workers were internationally defeated. The Italian red years were over, and Luxembourg had a bullet in the head. It didn't arise out of "communist cadre" not doing their job. It was an international phenomenon.




And then, after the war's over, he criticises "anti-fascists" and proclaims fascism and anti-fascism homologous. And in doing so writes this horrible, insidious, nasty, meat-headed polemic arguing that the deliberate, scienitific massacre of 6 million men, woman, and children was, as Le Pen might put, a "minor detail".

This shit should be removed and you should all be thoroughly ashamed of yourselves.

Obviously he doesn't think it is a minor detail. It might sound that he trivializes it because he argues against emotional anti-fascism - against the same type of rhetoric you are writing right now.

Antifascist states were homologous to the fascists. Stalin had as much blood in his hands as Hitler. The americans turned hiroshima into a crater and the brits dresden into a wasteland. There is no point in arguing which one is better. They were both participants of imperialist war.

YKTMX
4th March 2010, 21:51
His position was that it was clearly capital approaching barbarism. What else do you want him to say?



While it's true to say there was a bourgeois dynamic to the fascist movement, and that the Second World War was an imperialist war (with anti-fascist dynamics), it is not true to say that the victory of fascism was an inevitable outcome of bourgeois development. Clearly it was not. The notion, offered up in the risible borefest above, that fascism is purely an economic phenonmena is totally discredited. The notion that it was purely another form of normal bourgeois rule is totally discredited.

And this just isn't of academic importance. Bordiga and the modern day Bordigite Cultists are defending the utterly disastorous and sectarian policies he practiced, policies that divided the working class and democratic forces, and created the space for genocidal politics.

So, please, don't pretend the author of this piece is conducting a disinterested marxist historical analysis. He's trying to provide retrospective justification for his own insanity.


Fascism more or less arose after workers were internationally defeated.

Not true, really. Workers in Italy were on the defensive, yes. They were still strong enough to defeat Mussolini had they had the right political leadership (here, the responsibility lies with social democrats and the Cultish extremes).

In Germany, the working class was not "defeated" until after the Nazi takeover.

If you're referring to the experience in Russia, you're on firmer ground.


It might sound that he trivializes it because he argues against emotional anti-fascism - against the same type of rhetoric you are writing right now.



What the hell is "emotional anti-fascism"? And is that meant to be an insult?


There is no point in arguing which one is better. They were both participants of imperialist war.



It's not a case of "better", really. Although I'm sure anyone with even a shred of moral sense could see some differences in the "homologies" you offer.

The insinuation of your stance is that the British working classes, for instance, should be have been "indifferent" to the Reichswehr rolling into London. I think that's decidedly dodgy, even apart from the soppy "moral" aspect of opposition to genocidal armies, because these are armies of a State that intended to wipe out any independent working class organization in Europe, as the Nazis had done in Germany.

So even on the basis of a basic class struggle arithmetic, there is no "homology" between Nazism and bourgeois democracy - one allows limited forms of working class self-organization, the other gasses social democrats, socialists and Trade Unionists and uses their skin to make lampshades.

If you can't smell the difference, I fear there is a serious problem.

black magick hustla
4th March 2010, 23:16
While it's true to say there was a bourgeois dynamic to the fascist movement, and that the Second World War was an imperialist war (with anti-fascist dynamics), it is not true to say that the victory of fascism was an inevitable outcome of bourgeois development. Clearly it was not. The notion, offered up in the risible borefest above, that fascism is purely an economic phenonmena is totally discredited. The notion that it was purely another form of normal bourgeois rule is totally discredited.

Discredited by whom? I dont think it was a purely economic phenomena - it was a superstructural aspect of decomposing capitalism.

The only reason why leftists think it was "not" another form of bourgeois rule is because they were tied to soviet realpolitik.

Democracy comes out of fascism and fascism comes out of democracy, I think. The only argument you can make for "significant" fascist brutality is for the nazis. Italy was just the average strongman authoritarian dictatorship. So then, it is not an argument about fascism, but about german national socialism, because there was not anything particularly remarkable about mussolini from other anti-communist, authoritarian regimes.




And this just isn't of academic importance. Bordiga and the modern day Bordigite Cultists are defending the utterly disastorous and sectarian policies he practiced, policies that divided the working class and democratic forces, and created the space for genocidal politics.
Yet, when the left dominated the ICP it was when Italy was the closest to revolution. The Italian red years, for example.



So, please, don't pretend the author of this piece is conducting a disinterested marxist historical analysis. He's trying to provide retrospective justification for his own insanity.

Bordiga was a very clear minded man. If anything, he was one of the sanest.



Not true, really. Workers in Italy were on the defensive, yes. They were still strong enough to defeat Mussolini had they had the right political leadership (here, the responsibility lies with social democrats and the Cultish extremes).
What does it mean to defeat mussolini with the right political leadership?



In Germany, the working class was not "defeated" until after the Nazi takeover.

If you're referring to the experience in Russia, you're on firmer ground.


Both were defeated. The german revolution was dissolved, and the KPD was an agent of soviet imperialism.



What the hell is "emotional anti-fascism"? And is that meant to be an insult?



I didn't mean it as an insult. I was implying that you use sometimes very colorful language as a substitute of political clarity. This is the heritage of democratic antifascism.



It's not a case of "better", really. Although I'm sure anyone with even a shred of moral sense could see some differences in the "homologies" you offer.

You are doing the same thing. This is not an argument.



The insinuation of your stance is that the British working classes, for instance, should be have been "indifferent" to the Reichswehr rolling into London. I think that's decidedly dodgy, even apart from the soppy "moral" aspect of opposition to genocidal armies, because these are armies of a State that intended to wipe out any independent working class organization in Europe, as the Nazis had done in Germany.
First, there were no "independent" working class organizations. All the big "working class" organizations were integrated to democratic fronts or soviet realpolitik.

Second, nobody talked about "indifference." French Left communists agitated against the Getsapo, and some of them were Jews. This is very different from the french CP singing the marseillase and calling for the defense of an imperialist state though.



So even on the basis of a basic class struggle arithmetic, there is no "homology" between Nazism and bourgeois democracy - one allows limited forms of working class self-organization, the other gasses social democrats, socialists and Trade Unionists and uses their skin to make lampshades.

If you can't smell the difference, I fear there is a serious problem.

Again, I think the issue here is trying to put democracy and fascism as being two completely different phenomena. Fascism springs from democratic states, and democratic states spring from fascism. Spain turned democratic, and german social democracy, the murderers of Rosa Luxembourg and Liebmeckt, turned into fascism. The democrats have no need to turn socialists into lampshades because democracy is the product of a relatively stable enviroment, where fascism would be counterproductive to the state.

black magick hustla
5th March 2010, 06:47
What is wrong with emotional anti-fascism? The dichotomy between emotion and reason is a false one and based on bourgeois prejudices.

not when imagery and literary language substitutes real argument though.

9
5th March 2010, 10:51
I can't honestly believe this infamous article is being offered up as a positive example of "Marxist" thought!

Utterly disrgraceful.



This is pissin' on the victims of the Holocaust - and in service of what?

Another thing: Bordiga's behaviour at the time of Mussolini's rise was utterly disastorous. This is a man whose ultra-left, ultra-sectarian lunancy created the conditions for a fascist victory.

And then, after the war's over, he criticises "anti-fascists" and proclaims fascism and anti-fascism homologous. And in doing so writes this horrible, insidious, nasty, meat-headed polemic arguing that the deliberate, scienitific massacre of 6 million men, woman, and children was, as Le Pen might put, a "minor detail".

This shit should be removed and you should all be thoroughly ashamed of yourselves.

Right. In light of the possibility of this thread descending into a tendency war, let me just say, I am not a ‘Left Communist‘; I have no allegiance to Bordiga. Although I do agree with much of what was said in this article.
If this has all been thoroughly discredited as you suggest, you should have no problem at all offering an alternative explanation and an actual refutation of the points raised in the article at least regarding underlying utility of the exterminations; and if the refutation holds water - assuming you intend to offer one to begin with - it should be able to stand on its own. As dada pointed out (and as truly compelling as your feigned moral outrage is) simply claiming “this is wrong, this is bad, this has all been discredited, you people are disgraceful, you‘re pissing on Holocaust victims, you should all be ashamed of yourselves” doesn’t actually constitute an argument, no matter what Kahanists might claim.

Saorsa
6th March 2010, 05:03
since when did you pieces of trash have absolute ownership over truth?

I think people need to be a little less rude to each other around here. The tendency wars are going waaaaaaaaaaaaay overboard.

black magick hustla
6th March 2010, 05:55
since when did you pieces of trash have absolute ownership over truth?

i think someone forgot to take his meds...

YKTMX
6th March 2010, 12:56
Italy was just the average strongman authoritarian dictatorship. So then, it is not an argument about fascism, but about german national socialism, because there was not anything particularly remarkable about mussolini from other anti-communist, authoritarian regimes.

Well, perhaps this applies to the 1922-1926 period. The period after '26 saw a process of radicalization that made the regime more explicitly "radical" and fascist. This was a result of pressure from below on Mussolini directed by the petty-bourgeois squadristi who had been the bedrock of counterevolutionary violence. There were also the Race Laws in the 30's that took the regime in a more explicitly radical racist direction, a process accelerated by the colonial experiences in Ethipoia and Libya. I don't neccessarily disagree with your broad assessment of Italian Fascism, and I agree that there important ideological and practical differences with National Socialism. Although I do think desribing it as an 'average' strong-man dictatorship is perhaps an underestimation of the things going on.

There was, for instance, at all stages, an attempt to mobilize mass support for the regime, something you don't tend to get in "strong-man dictatorships", which generally seek just to depoliticize society. Think about Chile under Pinochet, for example.


Bordiga was a very clear minded man. If anything, he was one of the sanest.

He thought Mussolini's regime would almost immediately collapse and lead the way to a communist revolution...


What does it mean to defeat mussolini with the right political leadership?

It means that a non-sectarian, working class anti-fascist politics, a politics that didn't submit to class collaboration or counterproductive divisions of working class strength, could have organized a revolutionary armed response to the fascist violence. Organizations like the arditi del popolo, shunned by Bordiga and the Cultists, that organized local working class armed opposition to the fascist hoardes could have formed the basis for a national campaign of working class resistance.

Instead, the left oscillated between reformist "deals" with Italian capitalism and the Cultist fantasy, propagated and nurtured by Bordiga, that all the Fascist regime would do is "clear away" illusions in parliament and "pave the way" for a socialist revolution.

This policy directly led to the victory of Italian fascism by weakening the resolve of the working class to fight and isolating the movements that could have formed the basis of a broad working class anti-fascist politics.

Why do you think he's moaning about "anti-fascism"?


KPD was an agent of soviet imperialism.

The leadership and national policy was directed by the whims of the Soviet bureaucracy, yes. The Party and its rank and file membership were the foundation, along with the ordinary members of the SPD, for a mass opposition to fascism that could have weakened or destroyed Hitler. Instead, just as in Italy, the Left spent most of their time trying to weaken and defame each other, instead of rallying around a common, consistent anti-fascist message.


german social democracy, the murderers of Rosa Luxembourg and Liebmeckt, turned into fascism.

This is third-period Stalinism, equating the SPD with the Fascists and its totally false. The SPD were mass socialist organization with a counterrevolutionary leadership leading millions of workers who were, at different points, revolutionary and counterrevolutionary, or a mixture of both. To equate them, or to suggest that the SPD led to fascism is perverse nonsense.

Also: Rosa Luxemburg fought her whole political life against ultra-left sectarianism, precisely because she knew the dangers of it. So to invoke her in defence of your social-fascist position is an abomination.

YKTMX
6th March 2010, 13:08
As dada pointed out (and as truly compelling as your feigned moral outrage is) simply claiming “this is wrong, this is bad, this has all been discredited, you people are disgraceful, you‘re pissing on Holocaust victims, you should all be ashamed of yourselves” doesn’t actually constitute an argument, no matter what Kahanists might claim.

Well, my outrage is moral but it isn't feigned. I know that perhaps it is not the height of revolutionary chic to actually show that I care about the suffering of my class and the oppressed, that I don't like seeing views propagated that have led and will lead to them and their children being liquidated, but that it is how I feel on the subject. I realise this approach is not for all. It doesn't have to be in order for me to take it.

On your almost substantive point about offering a "point-for-point" refutation of the social-fascist line, then, maybe. I've tried to develop some of my points in the post above.

Although, I have to say, if comrades are so ill-read and so credulous on a subject as important as politics in inter-war Europe, then I do intend to lose a bit of interest. This isn't an educational seminar. It's a discussion board. And if I need to point out, for instance, that the mass of the German people did not "delight" in antisemitism, and that much of the reason of the Holocaust happened predominantly outside the Reich was because the dominant position amongst the German masses was one of mild disquiet or disgust about the treatment of the Jews, then there is a problem beyond my lack of desire to "refute" this nonsense.

Or if I need to point out that the Jewish population of the Soviet Union was not, in the main, "petty-bourgeois", but peasant, and so Bordiga's economistic analysis looks ropey here, then I think people just haven't read enough.

At the end of the day - it's up to people to be doing their own reading. Or they can stick to reading clapped out pseudo-radical shit written by a defeated sectarian with an axe to grind.

If comrades want to learn, read Paxton's Anatomy of Fascism, which includes a detailed study of the reasons behind the Holocaust. Or Kershaw's biography of Hitler. Or Hillberg' book. Or Tim Mason's excellent work on the Third Reich. Or Trotsky's stuff from the time pointing out, at the time, the disastorous consequences of the line being taken here.

If they can't or they don't want to, and think that Bordiga's terrible, terrible analysis constitutes something authentically scientific and Marxist, then that's fine. But I won't respect it. Because it's garbage - total utter garbage. It's a defamation of the proud anti-fascist tradition, of Karl Marx and of the millions of victims of fascism, particularly the Jews.

black magick hustla
7th March 2010, 09:43
Well, my outrage is moral but it isn't feigned. I know that perhaps it is not the height of revolutionary chic to actually show that I care about the suffering of my class and the oppressed, that I don't like seeing views propagated that have led and will lead to them and their children being liquidated, but that it is how I feel on the subject. I realise this approach is not for all. It doesn't have to be in order for me to take it.

On your almost substantive point about offering a "point-for-point" refutation of the social-fascist line, then, maybe. I've tried to develop some of my points in the post above.

Although, I have to say, if comrades are so ill-read and so credulous on a subject as important as politics in inter-war Europe, then I do intend to lose a bit of interest. This isn't an educational seminar. It's a discussion board. And if I need to point out, for instance, that the mass of the German people did not "delight" in antisemitism, and that much of the reason of the Holocaust happened predominantly outside the Reich was because the dominant position amongst the German masses was one of mild disquiet or disgust about the treatment of the Jews, then there is a problem beyond my lack of desire to "refute" this nonsense.

Or if I need to point out that the Jewish population of the Soviet Union was not, in the main, "petty-bourgeois", but peasant, and so Bordiga's economistic analysis looks ropey here, then I think people just haven't read enough.

At the end of the day - it's up to people to be doing their own reading. Or they can stick to reading clapped out pseudo-radical shit written by a defeated sectarian with an axe to grind.

If comrades want to learn, read Paxton's Anatomy of Fascism, which includes a detailed study of the reasons behind the Holocaust. Or Kershaw's biography of Hitler. Or Hillberg' book. Or Tim Mason's excellent work on the Third Reich. Or Trotsky's stuff from the time pointing out, at the time, the disastorous consequences of the line being taken here.

If they can't or they don't want to, and think that Bordiga's terrible, terrible analysis constitutes something authentically scientific and Marxist, then that's fine. But I won't respect it. Because it's garbage - total utter garbage. It's a defamation of the proud anti-fascist tradition, of Karl Marx and of the millions of victims of fascism, particularly the Jews.

1) apikoros is a jew

2) man, this is really pretty but the only thing you said was that we where all ignorant. congratz for adressing the issue at stake

black magick hustla
7th March 2010, 10:05
Well, perhaps this applies to the 1922-1926 period. The period after '26 saw a process of radicalization that made the regime more explicitly "radical" and fascist. This was a result of pressure from below on Mussolini directed by the petty-bourgeois squadristi who had been the bedrock of counterevolutionary violence. There were also the Race Laws in the 30's that took the regime in a more explicitly radical racist direction, a process accelerated by the colonial experiences in Ethipoia and Libya. I don't neccessarily disagree with your broad assessment of Italian Fascism, and I agree that there important ideological and practical differences with National Socialism. Although I do think desribing it as an 'average' strong-man dictatorship is perhaps an underestimation of the things going on.point

Well obsiously not all authortiarian anticommunist regimes are exactly the same. My point was that the fixation with italian fascism by modern day leftists have more to do with historical specificities, than any real substance.





He thought Mussolini's regime would almost immediately collapse and lead the way to a communist revolution...

Yeah, he was wrong with that. I dont think he was wrong in condemning the popular front, which castrated all working class organizations and paved the way for the massive stalinist counterrevolution, which culminated in the idea that WWII was a just war instead of an imperialist war.



It means that a non-sectarian, working class anti-fascist politics, a politics that didn't submit to class collaboration or counterproductive divisions of working class strength, could have organized a revolutionary armed response to the fascist violence. Organizations like the arditi del popolo, shunned by Bordiga and the Cultists, that organized local working class armed opposition to the fascist hoardes could have formed the basis for a national campaign of working class resistance.

I remember discussing with leo about the arditi. Needless to say I do agtee that the arditi was not necessarily a bourgeois front and that Bordiga might have been wrong in this issue.

The arditi was a compltely different phenomenon than the stalinist realpolitik of the popular front though.




Instead, the left oscillated between reformist "deals" with Italian capitalism and the Cultist fantasy, propagated and nurtured by Bordiga, that all the Fascist regime would do is "clear away" illusions in parliament and "pave the way" for a socialist revolution.


Yes, I dont think anybody in the communist left agrees with all of his. After all, we are not bordigists.

I dont think the traditional stalinist/gramscite left would have prevented the imperialist war though.

This policy directly led to t



I think he moanws "antifascism" because it rallied millions of workers into imperialist slaughter.

[quote]
The leadership and national policy was directed by the whims of the Soviet bureaucracy, yes. The Party and its rank and file membership were the foundation, along with the ordinary members of the SPD, for a mass opposition to fascism that could have weakened or destroyed Hitler. Instead, just as in Italy, the Left spent most of their time trying to weaken and defame each other, instead of rallying around a common, consistent anti-fascist message.

This is with all "left" organizations, the rank and file is usually more radical than the leadership.

I don't think the point for us is to try to argue strategy for two organizations that were built upon a massive counterrevolution and the corpses of communist militants. For us, it is like trying to come up for a geopolitical plan for the Democrats.

Imperialist war could have been prevented, but I dont think at that stage, when the working class was already decimated internationally.

So my point here is not trying to argue strategy, or what could have happened if etc. I was simply pointing out that historically antifascism rallied for the defense of the nation state and mystified the role of imperialist war. I thinkt his is what is important to me today.



This is third-period Stalinism, equating the SPD with the Fascists and its totally false. The SPD were mass socialist organization with a counterrevolutionary leadership leading millions of workers who were, at different points, revolutionary and counterrevolutionary, or a mixture of both. To equate them, or to suggest that the SPD led to fascism is perverse nonsense.


The spd was a massive democratic bourgeois organization, with millions of workers. All labourite organizations were like that though. So there was nothing remarkable about them except perhaps in name.

I think the SPD led to fascism in a way because they were the ones that destroyed communist militancy. The SPD, in a sense, paved the way for counterrevolution in Russia and everywhere else.

Devrim
7th March 2010, 12:27
This shit should be removed and you should all be thoroughly ashamed of yourselves.

It is quite interesting that this poster ends by calling to censor an article, which he didn't like. It obvioulsy shows his commitment to open discussion.


I can't honestly believe this infamous article is being offered up as a positive example of "Marxist" thought!

One has to ask why this article is being referred to as "infamous". It became well known when the French media including the dailies 'Le Monde' and 'le Libertaire' ran a smear campaign against left communists by associating them with holocaust negationists back in the nineties.

During this campaign articles from our current were attacked directly, for example from the GCF paper L’Etincelle in 1945, but most of the bile was reserved for Bordiga. We commented on this at the time:


The authors of the article use the vilest method of using numerous quotations to make others say what they have been paid to say. But they have gone much further than that. Our would-be enemies of fascism, our ‘writers for Liberation’ are no less than adepts of the methods of the chief Nazi propagandist during the Second World War, Goebbels, for whom “a great lie repeated 100 times becomes a truth”. So, following Le Monde, they repeat the lie according to which those who deny the holocaust should find their antecedents in the left communist current, in particular through the person of Bordiga, author of the pamphlet “Auschwitz or the great alibi”. Of Bordiga the article says that he was excluded from the CP, without giving the reasons, in the context of the article leaving the door open to the interpretation that it was because of a leaning towards the extreme right. It is true that the brilliant demonstration by Liberation would at the very least be weakened if the reader had been informed that Bordiga was renowned inside the International for his participation in the combat against the degeneration of the CPs, that he had first developed within the International a marxist analysis of fascism and that he was excluded in 1930 from the Italian CP by the central committee (in particular for having opposed the decision by the Russian Communist Party to exclude Trotsky) of which he was a member, even when he was condemned to house arrest in the islands in the south of Italy through the good offices of Mussolini.
...
http://en.internationalism.org/wr/197_slanders.htm

Of course Bordiga was in no way a holocaust denier. In the first paragraph of this text he mentions that six million Jews were murdered.

Behind this campaign was a defence of the lefts' patriotism from those like the communist left who even at the worst of times held internationalist principles. During the occupation of France in the Second World War, when Trotskyists were rallying to the defence of the nation, the communist left virtually alone stood for principles of internationalism. This is detailed in the prixe-winning famous French novel 'Planète Sans Visa' by Jean Malaquais.

Today, we stand by the same principles. Against all of those so called socialist who defend the state, and in the end come out with some left wing apology for national defence, we defended and continue to defend internationalism.

YXTMX makes his position clear:


The insinuation of your stance is that the British working classes, for instance, should be have been "indifferent" to the Reichswehr rolling into London. I think that's decidedly dodgy,...

So what would you have done? Rallied the working class to defend London? It is national defence. The same sort of rejection of Internationalist politics that Lenin condemned the the 'social chauvinists' for in 1914.

Of course, it comes as no surprise to learn that today's Trotskyist would end up taking sides in the Second World War, as that is exactly what their forefathers did at the time.

Devrim

Devrim
7th March 2010, 12:34
If the lampshades of human skin are put on display, it is in order to make us forget that capitalism has transformed living man into lampshades. The mountains of hair, gold teeth, and bodies of men, become merchandise, are supposed to make us forget that capitalism has made living man into merchandise. It is the work, even the life of man, which capitalism has transformed into merchandise. This is pissin' on the victims of the Holocaust - and in service of what?

Actually, I think that even the holocaust today has been turned into merchandise. If you go to Auschwitz, it is like a theme park, with bus loads of Toursists turning up all day, "Martha can you just take my photo by this 'wall of death' where they shot all those Jews,... and let's get one of you and the kids too"*. Genocide is turned into a product and everybody buys their souvenirs afterwards.

Devrim

*Overheard when I visited Auschwitz a few years ago.

Vladimir Innit Lenin
7th March 2010, 12:39
This article shows the self-destructive, lunatic defiance sometimes displayed by the left.

Sometimes, instead of turning every single historical action into 'proof that Marx was right', or what have you, we simply need to accept that a terrible thing happened, that the left was too weak to stop it, and that Jews, social outcasts and others who were deemed part of the 'Untermensch' suffered terribly simply because they were part of this 'sub-human race', rather than for any class reason. Of course economic factors played a role in the rise of Nazism and its consolidation, especially during the mid/late 1930s, but sometimes, in instances such as these, one should not try to remodel history to fit a pre-disposed ideological model, as some leftists try to do.

Robocommie
7th March 2010, 15:28
This article shows the self-destructive, lunatic defiance sometimes displayed by the left.

Sometimes, instead of turning every single historical action into 'proof that Marx was right', or what have you, we simply need to accept that a terrible thing happened, that the left was too weak to stop it, and that Jews, social outcasts and others who were deemed part of the 'Untermensch' suffered terribly simply because they were part of this 'sub-human race', rather than for any class reason. Of course economic factors played a role in the rise of Nazism and its consolidation, especially during the mid/late 1930s, but sometimes, in instances such as these, one should not try to remodel history to fit a pre-disposed ideological model, as some leftists try to do.

I don't really know if I agree with your analysis in this particular case, but I do agree with, and support, the spirit of what you're saying in a general sense.

YKTMX
7th March 2010, 21:01
So what would you have done? Rallied the working class to defend London?

I'll respond to this just now, because it seems like an important question:

First of all, let's point to a simple historical fact. It's not true that calling for resistance to fascism in Britain would have put the working class on the side of its 'own' ruling classes.

In fact, the British ruling classes, from top to bottom, were in favour of capitulation in 1941. Churchill's group and the Labour movement were basically alone in calling for resistance to fascism and denouncing appeasement. So, let's do away with the romantic notion that failure to defend Britain's borders in 40-41 would have involved staking out an "internationalist position". In fact, it would have put us on the side of those favouring capitulation to Nazi Germany.

Secondly, it's not true that either now, or Trotskyists at the time, were simply calling for "national defence". The position of the Trotskyists was clear: anti-fascist resistance is neccessary and important, too important to be left to the British ruling classes. We would have been calling for, for instance, the arming of the British people, something the government were terrified of doing. We could have been calling for Mosley to be put against the wall, and the elements collaborating with the Third Reich to be imprisoned.

We would have been saying, absolutely centrally, that all British troops should be removed from India, Egypt, Burma etc. and those countries granted immediate independence.

We would have been called total support, political and military, to the partisan fighters in Italy and Central and Eastern Europe.

We would have called for workers' control over the arms industry and for a total end to war profiteering.

We would have staked out, in other words, the framework of a popular anti-fascist rebellion against both fascism and its appeasers, and any forces that sought a compromise with either force.

Such a position would have involved elements of national defence, but national defence would not have been either the motivating military or ideological dynamic.

I think such a position was and is the clear working class position.

Those then, or now, who reject such a policy ought to have say what they would put in its place.

ls
8th March 2010, 05:29
YKTMX openly admits his position is based on moralism and even better seems to think it's a reason to censor the article. Truly something.


First of all, let's point to a simple historical fact. It's not true that calling for resistance to fascism in Britain would have put the working class on the side of its 'own' ruling classes.

It does when you come out with popular slogans such as the urging the working-class to join the army, Trots did that then and they would advocate that now with an ascension of fascism, ditto for a lot of anarchists.


In fact, the British ruling classes, from top to bottom, were in favour of capitulation in 1941. Churchill's group and the Labour movement were basically alone in calling for resistance to fascism and denouncing appeasement. So, let's do away with the romantic notion that failure to defend Britain's borders in 40-41 would have involved staking out an "internationalist position". In fact, it would have put us on the side of those favouring capitulation to Nazi Germany.

In the typical Trotskyist tradition you use the terms "defend Britain's borders", in a way showing your national chauvinism. Capitulation to Fascists wasn't on the table to any internationalists, from the PCI'd under Bordiga to the KAPD, the British internationalists of the time wouldn't have let you speak for another second either.


Secondly, it's not true that either now, or Trotskyists at the time, were simply calling for "national defence". The position of the Trotskyists was clear: anti-fascist resistance is neccessary and important, too important to be left to the British ruling classes. We would have been calling for, for instance, the arming of the British people, something the government were terrified of doing. We could have been calling for Mosley to be put against the wall, and the elements collaborating with the Third Reich to be imprisoned.

Excellent, so you do side with the state and think you should use state powers such as imprisonment against Nazis instead of an independent working-class line, again the typical Trotskyist line is shown. Because fronts of all different kinds always work. Solidarity with Churchill!


We would have been saying, absolutely centrally, that all British troops should be removed from India, Egypt, Burma etc. and those countries granted immediate independence.

We would have been called total support, political and military, to the partisan fighters in Italy and Central and Eastern Europe.

We would have called for workers' control over the arms industry and for a total end to war profiteering.

The usual unrealistic tokenistic Trot "demands" that just get ignored as a sort of icing over the fact that you've totally capitulated to the bourgeois.


We would have staked out, in other words, the framework of a popular anti-fascist rebellion against both fascism and its appeasers, and any forces that sought a compromise with either force.

Such a position would have involved elements of national defence, but national defence would not have been either the motivating military or ideological dynamic.

I think such a position was and is the clear working class position.

Those then, or now, who reject such a policy ought to have say what they would put in its place.

The internationalists did the right thing at the time and still come out with the right positions now; independent working-class action whether it's cable street or fighting on the streets of Germany. As usual you side with the capitalist state and ask them to do your bidding in a time where independent working-class resistance was needed most.

ZeroNowhere
8th March 2010, 08:40
This article shows the self-destructive, lunatic defiance sometimes displayed by the left.

Sometimes, instead of turning every single historical action into 'proof that Marx was right', or what have you, we simply need to accept that a terrible thing happened, that the left was too weak to stop it, and that Jews, social outcasts and others who were deemed part of the 'Untermensch' suffered terribly simply because they were part of this 'sub-human race', rather than for any class reason. Of course economic factors played a role in the rise of Nazism and its consolidation, especially during the mid/late 1930s, but sometimes, in instances such as these, one should not try to remodel history to fit a pre-disposed ideological model, as some leftists try to do.This is more or less an ad-hominem rather than an actual argument, and we have more than enough of that on Revleft.

Devrim
9th March 2010, 06:49
I'll respond to this just now, because it seems like an important question:

First of all, let's point to a simple historical fact. It's not true that calling for resistance to fascism in Britain would have put the working class on the side of its 'own' ruling classes.

In fact, the British ruling classes, from top to bottom, were in favour of capitulation in 1941. Churchill's group and the Labour movement were basically alone in calling for resistance to fascism and denouncing appeasement. So, let's do away with the romantic notion that failure to defend Britain's borders in 40-41 would have involved staking out an "internationalist position". In fact, it would have put us on the side of those favouring capitulation to Nazi Germany.

Secondly, it's not true that either now, or Trotskyists at the time, were simply calling for "national defence". The position of the Trotskyists was clear: anti-fascist resistance is neccessary and important, too important to be left to the British ruling classes. We would have been calling for, for instance, the arming of the British people, something the government were terrified of doing. We could have been calling for Mosley to be put against the wall, and the elements collaborating with the Third Reich to be imprisoned.

We would have been saying, absolutely centrally, that all British troops should be removed from India, Egypt, Burma etc. and those countries granted immediate independence.

We would have been called total support, political and military, to the partisan fighters in Italy and Central and Eastern Europe.

We would have called for workers' control over the arms industry and for a total end to war profiteering.

We would have staked out, in other words, the framework of a popular anti-fascist rebellion against both fascism and its appeasers, and any forces that sought a compromise with either force.

Such a position would have involved elements of national defence, but national defence would not have been either the motivating military or ideological dynamic.

I think such a position was and is the clear working class position.

Those then, or now, who reject such a policy ought to have say what they would put in its place.

That is pretty much what I expected a call for national defence covered in leftist rhetoric. Kautsky would have been proud.

Devrim