"Misandry"

[Nwoye]

On another forum I post at someone has decided to protest against a trend in american society which he calls "misandry" and which essentially amounts to institutionalized sexism against men. I the site he linked to was pretty humorous and figured I would share it here:

http://www.manwomanmyth.com/

Here's an image from the site:

http://www.manwomanmyth.com/wp-content/uploads/army-toys-1.gif

[sarmchain]

i think that while societyis becoming more accepting of woman breaking gender rules men are still expected to behave like men , example if a woman plays sports now days it generally considered "accectable" behavior however a man who displays excessive emotion risks getting the shit beat out of him for being a "pussy" however i also think this is in a way related to sexism men are expected to be tough while woman are expected to be weak a man who breaks this rule "threatens" what it means to be a man by lowering himself to female standards while a woman who violates this standard is seen as "aspiring" to raise herself to the male standard

as for the "misandry" i point you to Mary_Daly (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Daly)who said
"If life is to survive on this planet, there must be a decontamination of the Earth. I think this will be accompanied by an evolutionary process that will result in a drastic reduction of the population of males." so misandry is not a made up term and does exist just like there are people who are racist against whites yes blacks and women are by far more oppressed and most people who use "you hate whites/men!" are doing to hide thier own bigotry still it does exist out there (thought the website you linked is total bullshit 99.99% of the oppression men expience is from thier fellow man)

[Nwoye]

i think that while societyis becoming more accepting of woman breaking gender rules men are still expected to behave like men , example if a woman plays sports now days it generally considered "accectable" behavior however a man who displays excessive emotion risks getting the shit beat out of him for being a "pussy" however i also think this is in a way related to sexism men are expected to be tough while woman are expected to be weak a man who breaks this rule "threatens" what it means to be a man by lowering himself to female standards while a woman who violates this standard is seen as "aspiring" to raise herself to the male standard

as for the "misandry" i point you to Mary_Daly (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Daly)who said
"If life is to survive on this planet, there must be a decontamination of the Earth. I think this will be accompanied by an evolutionary process that will result in a drastic reduction of the population of males." so misandry is not a made up term and does exist just like there are people who are racist against whites yes blacks and women are by far more oppressed and most people who use "you hate whites/men!" are doing to hide thier own bigotry still it does exist out there (thought the website you linked is total bullshit 99.99% of the oppression men expience is from thier fellow man)
certainly gender roles are oppressive, but there is a large difference between that and "men are systematically discriminated against based on their sex in modern society".

[Meridian]

On another forum I post at someone has decided to protest against a trend in american society which he calls "misandry" and which essentially amounts to institutionalized sexism against men. I the site he linked to was pretty humorous and figured I would share it here:

http://www.manwomanmyth.com/

Here's an image from the site:

http://www.manwomanmyth.com/wp-content/uploads/army-toys-1.gif
I am not sure what you are trying to say here, but I find it alarming if you are against anti-sexism.

That said I don't necessarily agree with the views in that site.

[Crusade]

however i also think this is in a way related to sexism men are expected to be tough while woman are expected to be weak a man who breaks this rule "threatens" what it means to be a man by lowering himself to female standards while a woman who violates this standard is seen as "aspiring" to raise herself to the male standard

You pretty much nailed it. It seems more like a sexism blowback more than anything. The gender role aspects of sexism are ignored way too often. I believe a big part of the problem is that men feel like we have to validate ourselves and prove we have value. Working was what made men "valuable" and if women do it too, then men don't feel as if they're "necessary" whether to society as a whole or just the traditional family structure. I don't consider myself a sexist, but I could never imagine myself being a stay at home dad. I couldn't live with myself if I wasn't working, and I haven't met a woman who'd be alright with that idea either.

Women who CHOOSE to be stay at home moms aren't looked at in a positive light by other women either. Which I could understand, but the main idea is about giving women the liberty to CHOOSE their lifestyle and feel capable. Ironically, men have never really had a choice either. It's ironic just how much men have fought to sustain oppressive gender roles that simultaneously imprison themselves as well as women. :huh:

[CartCollector]

I believe a big part of the problem is that men feel like we have to validate ourselves and prove we have value. Working was what made men "valuable" and if women do it too, then men don't feel as if they're "necessary" whether to society as a whole or just the traditional family structure. I don't consider myself a sexist, but I could never imagine myself being a stay at home dad. I couldn't live with myself if I wasn't working, and I haven't met a woman who'd be alright with that idea either.

It could be that this is a prejudice genetically ingrained into humanity. Discrimination favoring the elderly and men is something seen in many cultures - there are vastly more middle aged and elderly men throughout the world with political and financial power then there are young people or women. I'm not saying that I support this, just that it might be very hard to eliminate the concept of the man as breadwinner and leader since it could be genetic and not social.

[Crusade]

It could be that this is a prejudice genetically ingrained into humanity. Discrimination favoring the elderly and men is something seen in many cultures - there are vastly more middle aged and elderly men throughout the world with political and financial power then there are young people or women. I'm not saying that I support this, just that it might be very hard to eliminate the concept of the man as breadwinner and leader since it could be genetic and not social.

I don't think it's directly genetic, but possibly something about our genetics that leaves us predisposed to turning out that way. Or maybe you're right and maybe it's directly genetic. Even so, I don't believe our destiny is written in our genetics. I believe part of the reason is the physical advantage men have. For most of human history how much you brought home had to do with how strong you were. Plus a woman being pregnant often leads to her having to sit some months out, so these roles are likely to be established, even temporary. I'm not an expert on this though so I'm gonna shut my trap and sit in the corner. :ninja:

[Physicist]

The image Organized Confusion provided can be viewed as either negative or positive depending on its connotation. I won't make any blanket statements about how women and men differ hormonally as I don't think anyone has a resolute understanding of sex beyond obvious physical characteristics, but the typical association between warfare and men isn't misandrist if it developed alongside proprietary gender roles. That is not to say misandry doesn't exist, as in some rare instances separatist females (I'll not refer to them as feminists) have given real consideration to the idea of viricide, but mostly it's an issue of patriarchy limiting the capabilities of men.

Perhaps why some men get confused on this matter and incorrectly label it misandry is that women - even feminist women - will uphold this patriarchy in their minds, creating a confusing scenario where that same man will be looked upon awkwardly for adopting "feminine" traits or desires. Patriarchy is all-encompassing, unfortunately.

And on that note, we should also note that misandry/misogyny should not be confused with discrimination against men/women, as they are separate ideas that only occasionally relate. Sexist men aren't necessarily misogynist, and visa versa for women and misandry.

[Organic Revolution]

I am not sure what you are trying to say here, but I find it alarming if you are against anti-sexism.

That said I don't necessarily agree with the views in that site.


Misandry is not a real, or actualized, thing. Sexism operates off of a power connotation, not off of simple bigotry alone. Please look deeper into these things.

[Physicist]

Misandry is not a real, or actualized, thing. Sexism operates off of a power connotation, not off of simple bigotry alone. Please look deeper into these things.

The term sexism can relate to either institutional policies or individual beliefs. Two women who are recognized by historians for coining the word - Pauline Let and Caroline Bird - both used it as a suspicion of sexual inferiority rooted in individuals. Arguing misandry is not real when activists like Valeria Solanas advocated the eradication of all men (with some support) is just word play. Misandry is not comparable to the constant barrage of institutional and societal limitations focused around women, but it's certainly real.

Furthermore it should be noted that while Marxists are actively opposed to existing power structures, so too should it be a priority that anyone who suggests a reciprocation of violence against Christians, "whites," heterosexuals, or whatever else be vehemently discredited or (preferably) brought under a more comprehensive socialist umbrella that focuses in on eradicating power triangles.

The problem with most (but not all) "masculinist" websites is that they mistakes the side effects of patriarchy for misandry.

[Y-Love]

Misandry is not a real, or actualized, thing. Sexism operates off of a power connotation, not off of simple bigotry alone. Please look deeper into these things.

And we can go further -- because while I do think that there is such a thing as sexism against males, it is far from being an institutionalized thing, on any level -- when we are even talking about sexism, we're really usually talking from inside of male-invented constructs anyway.

To say that "misandry" is on the level of misogyny -- I think that's insulting to what little girls grow up with/what women live with. Both sexes suffer from gender roles, yes, but institutionalized second-class status is something no male really knows about on a 1st-hand basis when it comes to sexism...

[mollymae]

To add my two cents, I can think of one instance of genuine, institutionalized sexism against men, and that is child custody cases.


There are: 11,268,000 total U.S. custodial mothers and 2,907,000 total U.S. custodial fathers
--Current Population Reports, U.S. Bureau of the Census, Series P-20, No. 458, 1991


"Ninety percent of divorced fathers have less than full custody of their children." Jonathan M. Honeycutt, Ph.D., ... National Institute for Divorce Research

I want to add the links to where I found these quotes but it won't let me. =/

[Y-Love]

To add my two cents, I can think of one instance of genuine, institutionalized sexism against men, and that is child custody cases.

ok true... :unsure:

[Physicist]

To add my two cents, I can think of one instance of genuine, institutionalized sexism against men, and that is child custody cases.Well, we have to assume that this mistrust of fathers stems from the acrid belief that women are primarily meant to stay at home and raise children whilst men should be the bread winners, so in most situation this discrimination/sexism results from patriarchy. Keep in mind most of the judges ruling against fatherly guardianship are men, so it's a tad bit preposterous to argue that men are intentionally sexist against other men. Unfortunately, women can be just as supportive of patriarchy (unknowingly or otherwise), and when it's expedient to conform in a particular situation (like child custody), many women will. I think this frustrates men who are not verbally supportive of patriarchy as it puts them at a disadvantage to have empowered women who can also fall back on gender-based differences they find beneficial (getting away with not paying for child support, not having to pay on the first date, being physically abusive towards men, etc) but we shouldn't forget that it probably originates from gender roles dictated by men. I suspect as women gain more equality in their payroll count, some sort of backlash may occur by both sexes as men become incapable of supporting these habits and women see it as self-deprecation. Gradually more media attention has gone into female-on-male violence, for example.


To say that "misandry" is on the level of misogyny -- I think that's insulting to what little girls grow up with/what women live with.To be honest, while discrimination against females remains a pervasive issue in Western civilizations, misogyny - policies that reflect the actual hatred of women - are not commonplace. Purely anecdotal here, but my observations reveal that misandry and misogyny are more often than not conditioned around relationship issues where the party (or parties) that feel expunged start to generalize about the other sex on a temporary basis. "All women are vicious; men are pigs; women are cheaters; men don't care about love." So on. This hostility will probably never fade as it's conditioned around our desire to feel loved.

[Red Commissar]

Maybe it's where I live, but these kinds of sentiments have become alarmingly common. They arrive in different forms but generally the same sort of delusions. People believing they are being restricted by "political correctness" and "reverse discrimination" have become common phrases, even into the mainstream as of late.

[Crusade]

Maybe it's where I live, but these kinds of sentiments have become alarmingly common. They arrive in different forms but generally the same sort of delusions. People believing they are being restricted by "political correctness" and "reverse discrimination" have become common phrases, even into the mainstream as of late.

Same where I'm at. Unless by where you live, you mean the US. :lol:

[Meridian]

Maybe it's where I live, but these kinds of sentiments have become alarmingly common. They arrive in different forms but generally the same sort of delusions. People believing they are being restricted by "political correctness" and "reverse discrimination" have become common phrases, even into the mainstream as of late.
Do you realize what you are saying here? Off hand you are dismissing someone claiming they face discrimination. Your comment looks as if it is lifted straight out of Stormfront, where they dismiss similar claims made by women's movements.

Instead of this sort of ungrounded dismissal we ought to take these things seriously. The image posted in the first post is a situation I know many young men and boys find themselves in, with an education system that in no way is suitable to their development.

[Red Commissar]

Do you realize what you are saying here? Off hand you are dismissing someone claiming they face discrimination. Your comment looks as if it is lifted straight out of Stormfront, where they dismiss similar claims made by women's movements.

Instead of this sort of ungrounded dismissal we ought to take these things seriously. The image posted in the first post is a situation I know many young men and boys find themselves in, with an education system that in no way is suitable to their development.

Have you even bothered looking at the site the image is from? Here is a selection from the site,


This site is principally a video repository and video blog concerned with male-female relations and the damage caused by Feminism in what is, essentially, an ongoing War on Men in Western society.

Men are under fire from numerous directions and in various ways. Indeed the size, scale and sheer variety of misandry – the hatred of men – almost defies belief and yet is plain to see in many areas of life.

This attack on men is perpetrated by governments, businesses (including charities) and also by “Radical Feminists“. The assault against men and the very idea of manhood, has been steadily increasing in ferocity over the decades to the extent that men are increasingly being treated in law and by custom, as second-class citizens.

Yes there are problems we get from time to time with false accusations of sexual harassment that can damage a man's job in the occupation or their relationships. However, I think by and large this notion that men are becoming slaves to a matriarchy society perpetrated by "radical feminists", sounds really stupid to me.

You're basing your entire argument off what you see in the image, the boy feeling all he can do is be a soldier, or another such "male" role, and in general what is considered to be a "gender role". I doubt though that the site is concerned with that so much as they are, for lack of a better word, disgusted with the feminist movement.

[Robocommie]

You're basing your entire argument off what you see in the image, the boy feeling all he can do is be a soldier, or another such "male" role, and in general what is considered to be a "gender role". I doubt though that the site is concerned with that so much as they are, for lack of a better word, disgusted with the feminist movement.

And I should say that this idea, that men are unhappy with being restricted to gender roles, is actually a feature of certain feminist theories.

It's not "lifting an argument from Stormfront" to say that society is generally more patriarchal than matriarchal, and that incidents of discrimination against men have to be put into their proper context. Meridian, I feel you're being extremely unfair to Gramsci by invoking Stormfront here, based on what he said.

[mollymae]

Meridian already said that s/he doesn't agree with all the views on that site.

Personally I think it is dangerous for one to close their mind to the idea of sexism against men. I'm not saying this in an accusing tone, but I think that it is unfortunate that the OP put the word misandry in quotes as if it were a silly idea. Although I do not think this is a huge problem today, I do think that it could be one day. Look at how quickly the tables turned with the feminist movement(s). Less than a hundred years ago women were not even allowed to vote, and now we have thousands more opportunities open to us. In fact, there are more women going to college now than men. I think the pendulum could easily swing the other way over time.

[Meridian]

And I should say that this idea, that men are unhappy with being restricted to gender roles, is actually a feature of certain feminist theories.
Absolutely, many feminists are very aware of this.

But I'd also like to point out that not all discrimination of males is a result of restriction into to gender roles. In some cases you have semi-institutionalized forms of discrimination of males (like you have with females). The most common example I can think of is education, where in many western countries boys are falling behind quite rapidly and females do a lot better (including higher levels of education). Needless to say, the ramifications of this are, and no doubt will, be big (just as the case would be for women).

Another example I can think of is quite plainly the military, especially in countries with compulsory service.


It's not "lifting an argument from Stormfront" to say that society is generally more patriarchal than matriarchal, and that incidents of discrimination against men have to be put into their proper context. Meridian, I feel you're being extremely unfair to Gramsci by invoking Stormfront here, based on what he said.
I agree it would be unfair if all Gramsci was saying was that society in general is more patriarchal than matriarchal, etc. But, sadly, Gramsci was saying no such thing.

Here is what he said, again.

Maybe it's where I live, but these kinds of sentiments have become alarmingly common. They arrive in different forms but generally the same sort of delusions. People believing they are being restricted by "political correctness" and "reverse discrimination" have become common phrases, even into the mainstream as of late.
Bold added.

Note that I do not literally think that Gramsci belongs in Stormfront, nor did I really mean to provoke anger or anything like that. I see Gramsci's point, I just don't think we should dismiss people when they feel they are being discriminated against systematically. Especially not when those who do claim that do so because they do in fact feel the ramifications of the roles of a gender. I don't really think it matters if they are females or males then (in fact, caring too much about that seems sexist to me).

[Physicist]

Double post

[Physicist]

[Yes there are problems we get from time to time with false accusations of sexual harassment that can damage a man's job in the occupation or their relationships. However, I think by and large this notion that men are becoming slaves to a matriarchy society perpetrated by "radical feminists", sounds really stupid to me.Of course, but we have to discern two different faculties of the debate. On one hand are conservative men and women who are simply objecting to the feminist movement in its entirety by placing the blame on women for the hypocrisy found in gender relations of the 21st century. On the other hand are feminist men and feminist women who are openly bothered by the fact other feminist men and feminist women are ignoring patriarchy's impact on men as trivial or not worthy of discussion. In many ways not emphasizing the fact men can't adopt "feminine" habits or concerns that they deem beneficial in this modern world (like child custody, spousal abuse, shouldering the financial burden of a family) is simply conforming to patriarchy.

[Red Commissar]

Bold added.

I think you're reading too much into my statement. I think it's fairly obvious people have been using "reverse discrimination" and "political correctness" when it doesn't fairly apply.

My point was that I highly doubt there's an institutionalized system putting and keeping men down so that women may advance, or at least what people think when they hear affirmative action.

And Physicist, I think the people on that site, or at least seem to me, to be reactionaries clinging onto popular buzzwords. I think they could careless about arriving at a true equality as they are concerned with returning to what they considered to be simpler times.

Much less the network they're in, "Men's Movement", and the content of the sites they are partnered with, simply shows this even more.

One of their partners, Rex Patriarch, has this to say,


It looks like that is where we are with feminist because it is becoming obvious that they are going insane as a result of too much power given to them. They have so little left to complain about that now all they can come with is that they don't like being called feminist anymore. The reason?

Feminism is seen as a negative and they want the rest of us to ignore reality so they can feel better about themselves.

There's a way to approach this situation that doesn't involve falling into what I see as having underlying anti-intellectual and overly reactionary comments. Just to parallel this to something else, there are plenty of people who despise what they see as the "capitalist system", but some of them end up as fascists rather than in our group, and there is a considerable difference between how the two will approach the situation. One of us handles it as it should be, and the others are more reactionary...