Hamas Rebels

[The Vegan Marxist]

I've been wondering, due to a lot of support I've been seeing lately towards the Hamas rebels, are the Hamas really a rebel group we could support as militant comrades striking resistance against U.S. forces? Or are they still terrorists as the U.S. likes to propagandize as? I'm asking due to how I know very little of the Hamas, for I'm doing most of my research within U.S. occupation over foreign soil, but the Hamas always seems to pop up as the resistance group against such forces.

[StalinFanboy]

They are bourgeois.

[The Vegan Marxist]

They are bourgeois.

Well, I can see them as the property-owning class, where they are in control of territories, but where exactly are they exploitative of the working class? At the most, I've seen them as protecting their people, & that's including the working class, along with giving them proper health services, promoted social-institutions, helped provide work for those that can work, etc.

Besides, from what I've gathered, they are very well known to be anti-capitalist & against any corporate enterprises.

[Lyev]

Well I don't know much about them myself, but I've found it's always best in such a situtation (i.e "should I support this organisation, or this party?") to side with the oppressed and the workers, the normal, everyday people; rather than siding with the the party or organisation that purport to represent the best interests of an oppressed people - whether that be Hamas, or the Bolsheviks of '17 - side with the oppressed people instead. I think, to an extent, you can cloud your own vision with dogmatism (and I am no exception to this) when you analyze a situation wanting to be on one side or the either, and then want to be on one side or the other once you've finished analyzing the situation. For example, if I was analyzing Hamas and I wanted to side with them, then I might downplay their oppression of women and exaggerate their care for the poor, for example. Then again I don't know bags about them. Basically, the question you want to ask yourself is more progressive? Without having an encyclopedic of Hamas, I know that their 100 times more progressive than the American-Israeli-western corporate backed, imperialist pigs. I think it's interesting that, in your sig, that you say "support these guys! and these ones! etc."; for me it should be support some aspects of the actions of said group/organisation. Additionally, I think they have denied the holocaust, and they seem quite anti-semitic;
"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." I of course want resistance, and a feasible, sizable fight against the crimes of Zionism, but I don't necessarily want resistance in the way it has manifested itself. Anyway, that's just my two cents.

[StalinFanboy]

Well, I can see them as the property-owning class, where they are in control of territories, but where exactly are they exploitative of the working class? At the most, I've seen them as protecting their people, & that's including the working class, along with giving them proper health services, promoted social-institutions, helped provide work for those that can work, etc.

Besides, from what I've gathered, they are very well known to be anti-capitalist & against any corporate enterprises.
Paternalism isn't revolutionary. Welfare states do not mean the working class are liberated, and wanting to create another state (which is what Hamas wants) is not in the interest of the working class.


Thanks for playing.

[Kassad]

The Vegan Marxist, I'm going to warn you right now. You've entered into a discussion that we've had many times on here and basically, all you're going to see is people attacking Palestinian resistance forces, calling them "bourgeois" and other assorted things, but presenting no real alternative besides workers revolution to free Palestine.

Though as Marxists, it is our hope to achieve international socialist revolution, it is necessary for us to look at the world as materialists and realize that workers revolution, as of now, is unattainable in Palestine. Islamic resistance forces are, despite what anyone says, very popular and they are currently the only force capable of combating Israeli imperialism.

You're going to wind up debating in circles here because a few things happen here
1) Ostensibly socialist people and organizations condemn resistance in the same manner that imperialists do.
2) Ostensibly socialist people and organizations call for revolution that is currently impossible.
3) Ostensibly socialist people, as they have since the socialist movement began, will observe the world in an idealistic and unrealistic manner.

It's our duty to shatter these kinds of illusions, combat imperialism and demand victory for the resistance over the forces of imperialism.

[The Vegan Marxist]

Well I don't know much about them myself, but I've found it's always best in such a situtation (i.e "should I support this organisation, or this party?") to side with the oppressed and the workers, the normal, everyday people; rather than siding with the the party or organisation that purport to represent the best interests of an oppressed people - whether that be Hamas, or the Bolsheviks of '17 - side with the oppressed people instead. I think, to an extent, you can cloud your own vision with dogmatism (and I am no exception to this) when you analyze a situation wanting to be on one side or the either, and then want to be on one side or the other once you've finished analyzing the situation. For example, if I was analyzing Hamas and I wanted to side with them, then I might downplay their oppression of women and exaggerate their care for the poor, for example. Then again I don't know bags about them. Basically, the question you want to ask yourself is more progressive? Without having an encyclopedic of Hamas, I know that their 100 times more progressive than the American-Israeli-western corporate backed, imperialist pigs. I think it's interesting that, in your sig, that you say "support these guys! and these ones! etc."; for me it should be support some aspects of the actions of said group/organisation. Additionally, I think they have denied the holocaust, and they seem quite anti-semitic; I of course want resistance, and a feasible, sizable fight against the crimes of Zionism, but I don't necessarily want resistance in the way it has manifested itself. Anyway, that's just my two cents.

Actually, from what I've understood, the Hamas has women militants, & they're not really anti-semitic, but rather anti-zionist. They support any jew that does not take the state as their shelter nor comrade.

[StalinFanboy]

Hella recuperators up in here.

[danyboy27]

Actually, from what I've understood, the Hamas has women militants, & they're not really anti-semitic, but rather anti-zionist. They support any jew that does not take the state as their shelter nor comrade.
and i would believe that if i wouldnt have seen hamas propaganda video with carricature of jews with big nose with big sack of money around them.

Hamas are religious fanatics, maybe not like the taleban but they are at some extent..
the ennemy of my ennemy is not my friend.

[StalinFanboy]

The Vegan Marxist, I'm going to warn you right now. You've entered into a discussion that we've had many times on here and basically, all you're going to see is people attacking Palestinian resistance forces, calling them "bourgeois" and other assorted things, but presenting no real alternative besides workers revolution to free Palestine.

Though as Marxists, it is our hope to achieve international socialist revolution, it is necessary for us to look at the world as materialists and realize that workers revolution, as of now, is unattainable in Palestine. Islamic resistance forces are, despite what anyone says, very popular and they are currently the only force capable of combating Israeli imperialism.

You're going to wind up debating in circles here because a few things happen here
1) Ostensibly socialist people and organizations condemn resistance in the same manner that imperialists do.
2) Ostensibly socialist people and organizations call for revolution that is currently impossible.
3) Ostensibly socialist people, as they have since the socialist movement began, will observe the world in an idealistic and unrealistic manner.

It's our duty to shatter these kinds of illusions, combat imperialism and demand victory for the resistance over the forces of imperialism.
I'm sorry that I'm not into supporting groups that support class society.

I think it's silly that instead of calling for worker's solidarity between Israeli workers and Palestinian workers and showing solidarity with those that attempt this, there are "communists" on this site that support groups that wish to erect another state that keeps the working class as the working class.

[The Vegan Marxist]

I'm sorry that I'm not into supporting groups that support class society.

I think it's silly that instead of calling for worker's solidarity between Israeli workers and Palestinian workers and showing solidarity with those that attempt this, there are "communists" on this site that support groups that wish to erect another state that keeps the working class as the working class.

It's not a call to support only groups that are anti-imperialist & anti-capitalist. We're not saying to not support the working class within these areas. That should be our most concern, to help increase workers solidarity. But, we must also help other comrades fight against the capitalist-imperialists.

[The Vegan Marxist]

and i would believe that if i wouldnt have seen hamas propaganda video with carricature of jews with big nose with big sack of money around them.

Hamas are religious fanatics, maybe not like the taleban but they are at some extent..
the ennemy of my ennemy is not my friend.

Can I see this video? And I haven't seen them commit any attacks in the name of any religion, but a fight against U.S. forces & those of the religious state that are trying to remain in power.

[StalinFanboy]

It's not a call to support only groups that are anti-imperialist & anti-capitalist. We're not saying to not support the working class within these areas. That should be our most concern, to help increase workers solidarity. But, we must also help other comrades fight against the capitalist-imperialists.
By supporting bourgeois groups like Hamas, you are not supporting workers.

[The Vegan Marxist]

By supporting bourgeois groups like Hamas, you are not supporting workers.

And how exactly are they harmful to the working class?

[StalinFanboy]

And how exactly are they harmful to the working class?
Dude, for real?

They are a nationalist organization that seeks to create a state. This means they seek to continue class society.


Which means that the working class of that region will stay the working class. They will be exploited by the ruling class. And they will not be any closer to liberation.

[The Vegan Marxist]

Dude, for real?

They are a nationalist organization that seeks to create a state. This means they seek to continue class society.


Which means that the working class of that region will stay the working class. They will be exploited by the ruling class. And they will not be any closer to liberation.

Doesn't mean they can't be converted to our cause. They don't seem to be anti-socialist or anti-communist, so that gives us a bigger step than the capitalists.

[StalinFanboy]

Doesn't mean they can't be converted to our cause. They don't seem to be anti-socialist or anti-communist, so that gives us a bigger step than the capitalists.
Dude. Nationalism is in no way compatible with communism. The very point of Hamas is to foster nationalism. You cannot convert this sort of group to "our cause" (assuming you and I have the same cause, and that people are "converted" to communism).

[Red Commissar]

Hamas is not really a group focused on any sort of revolutionary ideals, even progressive ones. It's just a long line of radical islamic groups that have become more and more popular with the failure of nationalist regimes that were big in Egypt, Syria, and Iraq.

There are other groups with more progressive messages in Palestine, but groups like Hamas have become more and more popular because they haven't given the image of "selling out" like Fatah has. They're playing to discontent of the people, and the old messages of revolutionary socialism are largely lost on the people, things that used to be big in the 60s and 70s, but not so much anymore...

It's very easy to comment on these sorts of situations from overseas, but the reality is different. Go to Palestine yourself and see how difficult it is to get anything rolling, much less create class consciousness and solidarity among the people, Jew or Muslim.

[red cat]

I've been wondering, due to a lot of support I've been seeing lately towards the Hamas rebels, are the Hamas really a rebel group we could support as militant comrades striking resistance against U.S. forces? Or are they still terrorists as the U.S. likes to propagandize as? I'm asking due to how I know very little of the Hamas, for I'm doing most of my research within U.S. occupation over foreign soil, but the Hamas always seems to pop up as the resistance group against such forces.

The Hamas is not communist. But even if it is not proletarian right now, it is certainly much better than the forces it is fighting.

Since the broad masses in the middle east are in contradiction with imperialism, the working class has good chances of rising into leadership in any popular organization that engages in armed struggles in these places.

Opposing any organization that fights against imperialism and is not a mere puppet of some other imperialist bloc, ultimately amounts to helping imperialism. Therefore, we should support Hamas against US imperialism and Israeli aggression.

[Crux]

The Vegan Marxist, I'm going to warn you right now. You've entered into a discussion that we've had many times on here and basically, all you're going to see is people attacking Palestinian resistance forces, calling them "bourgeois" and other assorted things, but presenting no real alternative besides workers revolution to free Palestine.
Worker's revolution? The horror!


Though as Marxists, it is our hope to achieve international socialist revolution, it is necessary for us to look at the world as materialists and realize that workers revolution, as of now, is unattainable in Palestine. Islamic resistance forces are, despite what anyone says, very popular and they are currently the only force capable of combating Israeli imperialism.
Just like the PLO, right? It's funny how some supposed "anti-imperialists" can't recognize a sell-out when they see one. So why in the hell would the Hamas be able to liberate palestine? On what basis?


You're going to wind up debating in circles here because a few things happen here
1) Ostensibly socialist people and organizations condemn resistance in the same manner that imperialists do.
Just like calling thing's like worker's resistance unfeasable preferring the let the local bourgeois try and solve the national question. oh wait...


2) Ostensibly socialist people and organizations call for revolution that is currently impossible.
Ostensibly socialist people show the worst kind of defeatism, defeatism towards the working class itself.


3) Ostensibly socialist people, as they have since the socialist movement began, will observe the world in an idealistic and unrealistic manner.
The idea that some heroic nationalist movement employing methods of individual terrorism can complete national liberation in any meaningful way comes to mind.


It's our duty to shatter these kinds of illusions, combat imperialism and demand victory for the resistance over the forces of imperialism.
Oh and absolutely. And doing so we must encourage genuine classbased resistance, and not top down bourguise movement that has historically sold out before.
"This brings us to the definition of insanity: doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result." - Albert Einstein

[scarletghoul]

Every communist supports the Palestinian struggle for liberation. Hamas happens to be the leading force in that struggle, even if they have a lot of reactionary policies. I'd much rather it was a group like the PFLP who was leading the Palestinian struggle for liberation. However, it is not. So I support Hamas as anti-imperialists, because ultimately imperialism is a more urgent problem than islamism, homophobia, and the other reactionary parts of the Hamas movement.

[danyboy27]

Can I see this video? And I haven't seen them commit any attacks in the name of any religion, but a fight against U.S. forces & those of the religious state that are trying to remain in power.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Eu6_P8rNpk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDvpU4WWWdA&feature=related

[Crux]

What makes you think Hamas won't capitulate their demands for an independent Palestine? What makes you think their tactics of individual terrorism has anything at all to bring to the liberation of palestine?

[The Vegan Marxist]

Dude. Nationalism is in no way compatible with communism. The very point of Hamas is to foster nationalism. You cannot convert this sort of group to "our cause" (assuming you and I have the same cause, and that people are "converted" to communism).

Yeah, maybe you're right. Though, it wouldn't hurt keeping an eye out on these groups to see where exactly they're heading.

[danyboy27]

Hamas is not a leading force for palestinian liberation.

[The Vegan Marxist]

Hamas is not a leading force for palestinian liberation.

They are when it comes to liberation against any imperialist force, such as the U.S.

[danyboy27]

They are when it comes to liberation against any imperialist force, such as the U.S.

feel free to give me the thousand revelant proofs that Hamas did something meaningful for the Palestinian people since he is in power.

what so new, so special, what difference them from Fatah or the PLO, what are the radical changes they bring to the palestinian society since they are in power?

Fundamentalism replaced nationalism, that pretty much what changed.

[scarletghoul]

Dude. Nationalism is in no way compatible with communism. The very point of Hamas is to foster nationalism. You cannot convert this sort of group to "our cause" (assuming you and I have the same cause, and that people are "converted" to communism).
While nationalism is ultimately a reactionary ideology, history has shown that anti-imperialist movements can be progressive even if they are nationalist. Dismissing an anti-imperialist movement just because it is nationalist is ridiculous and ultra-leftist.

[The Vegan Marxist]

feel free to give me the thousand revelant proofs that Hamas did something meaningful for the Palestinian people since he is in power.

what so new, so special, what difference them from Fatah or the PLO, what are the radical changes they bring to the palestinian society since they are in power?

Fundamentalism replaced nationalism, that pretty much what changed.

Well, first off, there are no 'thousand relevant proofs', so that's a misconception on your part.

Although the site is opposed to the Hamas as well, it also points out how they've helped fund & manage schools, health care clinics, youth groups, daycare centers, etc.: http://www.adl.org/PresRele/IslEx_61/2694_61.asp

And then we have this site where it shows how 90% of their revenue funds go straight to health, social welfare, religious, cultural, & educational services: http://www.cfr.org/publication/8968/

[red cat]

While nationalism is ultimately a reactionary ideology, history has shown that anti-imperialist movements can be progressive even if they are nationalist. Dismissing an anti-imperialist movement just because it is nationalist is ridiculous and ultra-leftist.

Plus national capitalist oppression is much less barbaric than imperialist oppression, because in the former the feudal relations of productions are replaced by bourgeois ones.

[danyboy27]

Well, first off, there are no 'thousand relevant proofs', so that's a misconception on your part.

Although the site is opposed to the Hamas as well, it also points out how they've helped fund & manage schools, health care clinics, youth groups, daycare centers, etc.: http://www.adl.org/PresRele/IslEx_61/2694_61.asp

And then we have this site where it shows how 90% of their revenue funds go straight to health, social welfare, religious, cultural, & educational services: http://www.cfr.org/publication/8968/

this is obvious that they provide those service in a dual goal:

1.Recruit more people
2.provide facilities, specialisation and equipements for their armed wings.

The german did the same things btw.

the Deutch Arbeit Front, Health reform, Education fund provided by the NSDAP, Cultural activities organised by the party, the Hitler youth, etc etc.

When a political organisation become dirrectly involved into those services, rather than leaving to the people the freedom to organize them, you give to those political organisation WAY too much power, and power corrupt.

[scarletghoul]

When a political organisation become dirrectly involved into those services, rather than leaving to the people the freedom to organize them, you give to those political organisation WAY too much power, and power corrupt.
this is the libertarian capitalist argument
in fact an impoverished people under siege have no use for 'the freedom to organise them', because without political support they dont have the necessary funds and resources

[The Vegan Marxist]

this is obvious that they provide those service in a dual goal:

1.Recruit more people
2.provide facilities, specialisation and equipements for their armed wings.

The german did the same things btw.

the Deutch Arbeit Front, Health reform, Education fund provided by the NSDAP, Cultural activities organised by the party, the Hitler youth, etc etc.

When a political organisation become dirrectly involved into those services, rather than leaving to the people the freedom to organize them, you give to those political organisation WAY too much power, and power corrupt.

If when you say Germans you mean Nazi regime, then you have no comparison between them & the Hamas. Yes, they did the same, but they did not give 90% of their revenue to all those services to the oppressed people, nor did the Nazis remain doing such services for their people, while the Hamas have remained helping out their people as they liberate them from the imperialist occupation. Let's not also forget that the Nazis, despite them going by the view as 'national socialist', were very much Capitalist-Imperialist, while the Hamas are very much AGAINST Capitalism & Imperialism.

[Scary Monster]

By supporting bourgeois groups like Hamas, you are not supporting workers.


Dude. Nationalism is in no way compatible with communism. The very point of Hamas is to foster nationalism. You cannot convert this sort of group to "our cause" (assuming you and I have the same cause, and that people are "converted" to communism).

This is much too ultra left. How can you expect the Palestinians, being under heavy seige, to have a revolution that follows every communist/socialist principle to the letter? Although they are as reactionary as they come, Hamas is the only group the Palestinians have who are in a military and political position to combat the Zionists.

This sounds A LOT better than being subjected to extreme oppression, annihilation and genocide under Israeli occupation:


they've helped fund & manage schools, health care clinics, youth groups, daycare centers, etc.: http://www.adl.org/PresRele/IslEx_61/2694_61.asp

And then we have this site where it shows how 90% of their revenue funds go straight to health, social welfare, religious, cultural, & educational services: http://www.cfr.org/publication/8968/

I dont think it's wrong at all to support Hamas to the extent that they provide for their people and want the Israelis to fuck off. I may be a bit naive, but from what ive gathered, If Hamas ever gets rid of the Zionists, then Palestinian workers will be in such a vastly better position to start worrying about gaining control over property and means of production, since they will have gained their sovereignty.

[The Vegan Marxist]

This is much too ultra left. How can you expect the Palestinians, being under heavy seige, to have a revolution that follows every communist/socialist principle to the letter? Although they are as reactionary as they come, Hamas is the only group the Palestinians have who are in a military and political position to combat the Zionists.
This sounds A LOT better than being subjected to extreme oppression, annihilation and genocide under Israeli occupation:



I dont think it's wrong at all to support Hamas to the extent that they provide for their people and want the Israelis to fuck off. I may be a bit naive, but from what ive gathered, If Hamas ever gets rid of the Zionists, then Palestinian workers will be in such a vastly better position to start worrying about gaining control over property and means of production, since they will have gained their sovereignty.

And once the workers are put in a better state to where they can actually organize again, we can then have real hopes in them truly rising up to socialist-communist struggle. But right now, with the Zionist-State in place, we can never see such happen while they remain in power. Until the Zionists are eliminated & the U.S. forces halted, we cannot see true workers solidarity take place. The Hamas are right now on the front lines fighting for these people, & that I will support 100%.

[danyboy27]

this is the libertarian capitalist argument
in fact an impoverished people under siege have no use for 'the freedom to organise them', because without political support they dont have the necessary funds and resources

there is a difference between organising good and services for the people has a political organisation and politicizing those services for your political party purposes.

in the first case, the group to it for the people, in the second case, the group do it to manipulate the people.

i am not a libertarian capitalist, i dont support the capitalist system at all.

[danyboy27]

If when you say Germans you mean Nazi regime, then you have no comparison between them & the Hamas. Yes, they did the same, but they did not give 90% of their revenue to all those services to the oppressed people, nor did the Nazis remain doing such services for their people, while the Hamas have remained helping out their people as they liberate them from the imperialist occupation. Let's not also forget that the Nazis, despite them going by the view as 'national socialist', were very much Capitalist-Imperialist, while the Hamas are very much AGAINST Capitalism & Imperialism.

i dont think hamas is fascist, if that was the question.
On the other hand, i see a similar path between the the way the nazi politicized every aspect of society in order to manipulate their people in a more efficient way.

you would trust Hamas when they tell you 90% of their money goes into services?

[The Vegan Marxist]

i dont think hamas is fascist, if that was the question.
On the other hand, i see a similar path between the the way the nazi politicized every aspect of society in order to manipulate their people in a more efficient way.

you would trust Hamas when they tell you 90% of their money goes into services?

They're similar to how any political-militant group takes care of their people through a ideological reason, whether it be deceitful or not. So that argument is irrelevant.

And I never said I trust them to leading our people to working-class power, but rather I support them on leading the revolution against the imperialist forces that are vastly present in that area, & when this happens, once the capitalist forces are out, or at least of the minority, the working class can then have a chance in taking power & then we can see a real socialist/communist revolution take place. Whether the Hamas joins them or not is up to them. They'll end up either being the friend of the workers or the enemy.

[Die Rote Fahne]

We're supposed to support what is the best option for the working class (outside of revolution).

Hamas is much better for the working class of Palestine, whilst the Israeli imperialists are bad for Israel and Palestinian workers.

[Comrade B]

Hamas is a reactionary power fighting a reactionary power.
Anyone who knows a days-worth of Iranian history knows not to trust religious reactionaries to back you up against an imperialist power. The first people to be targeted after the Shah was overthrown were the Marxists. They were killed in tremendous numbers.

[The Vegan Marxist]

Hamas is a reactionary power fighting a reactionary power.
Anyone who knows a days-worth of Iranian history knows not to trust religious reactionaries to back you up against an imperialist power. The first people to be targeted after the Shah was overthrown were the Marxists. They were killed in tremendous numbers.

So what's your plan in eliminating the imperialist factions taking place there while also ending the Zionist-State? And if that's your argument, then we might as well say that every rise of Communist powers will corrupt because it happened before. :rolleyes:

[Comrade B]

So what's your plan in eliminating the imperialist factions taking place there while also ending the Zionist-State?
I support the communist opposition in Palestine, the PFLP.
Hamas is only one power in Palestine. The PLO is combined of a large number of different militant organizations, including the PFLP. They are entirely seperate from Hamas. While they have a decent number of moderates, they are still not reactionaries. Reactionaries will never create progress. They are called reactionary for a reason.


And if that's your argument, then we might as well say that every rise of Communist powers will corrupt because it happened before. http://www.revleft.com/vb/../revleft/smilies/001_rolleyes.gif
My argument is to learn from history. My argument is, if there is another person very similar to Stalin, who likes Stalin, and wants to create a country like Stalin's, and you are a Trotskyist, you should probably oppose him.

[danyboy27]

They're similar to how any political-militant group takes care of their people through a ideological reason, whether it be deceitful or not. So that argument is irrelevant.
.
And personally, i think its a really disturbing indoctrination and manipulation method, regardless of who use it, capitalist, fascist and communists.




And I never said I trust them to leading our people to working-class power, but rather I support them on leading the revolution against the imperialist forces that are vastly present in that area, & when this happens, once the capitalist forces are out, or at least of the minority, the working class can then have a chance in taking power & then we can see a real socialist/communist revolution take place. Whether the Hamas joins them or not is up to them. They'll end up either being the friend of the workers or the enemy.
and what is the great plan from hamas to stop imperialism? shooting rocket made of used car part on israeli settlement in order to improve the life of the population?
will it stop israel governement to arrest, kill and torture palestinian, to take their land, destroy their houses and bomb their cities?

look, i dont have a freaking clue how to fix shit up, but i fail to see any bright future for the palestinian people with Hamas leading the charge.

[The Vegan Marxist]

And personally, i think its a really disturbing indoctrination and manipulation method, regardless of who use it, capitalist, fascist and communists.



and what is the great plan from hamas to stop imperialism? shooting rocket made of used car part on israeli settlement in order to improve the life of the population?
will it stop israel governement to arrest, kill and torture palestinian, to take their land, destroy their houses and bomb their cities?

look, i dont have a freaking clue how to fix shit up, but i fail to see any bright future for the palestinian people with Hamas leading the charge.

The Hamas won't create a 'great' future for the working class. But they can pave the way for the working class to be able to rise up & create such future.

And the Hamas is leading a revolution here against the Zionist-State, a violent revolution. They are very well organized, & unlike our friend above your comment, they have much more loyal numbers than the PLO. So yes, violence is what will move the revolution forward, but also organized violence against the Zionists & U.S. forces.

[Comrade B]

Hamas is hardly any better than Israel. They are both lead by the ruling classes of the other countries. Since when did communists side with people simply because they are stronger?

Hamas uses the people's just rage and wishes for revenge against Israel to forward their attempts to claim leadership. I honestly doubt that most of the people fighting for Hamas are fighting FOR Hamas.

[The Vegan Marxist]

Hamas is hardly any better than Israel. They are both lead by the ruling classes of the other countries. Since when did communists side with people simply because they are stronger?

Hamas uses the people's just rage and wishes for revenge against Israel to forward their attempts to claim leadership. I honestly doubt that most of the people fighting for Hamas are fighting FOR Hamas.

The loyalty & unity that they share is within LARGE numbers. And actually, the Hamas is vastly greater than Israeli forces running right now. If you look back in this thread, you'll notice how much they've done for their people. And I'm not talking about being stronger either, but rather have larger numbers & are more organized than any other militant group out there right now.

[Glenn Beck]

As far as I can see, in this debate Hamas is just a stand in for Palestinian national resistance to the Israeli state. I don't see why we should care what particular nationalist group happens to be leading horse at the particular moment; back when arab nationalism was chic it was the PLO, now it's the Islamist Hamas. I don't give a shit about Hamas either way, the manner in which Palestinians carry out their struggle is their business, if that means Hamas running Gaza and doing whatever it is they do then great. Nobody here is in any position to give anything but moral support to organizations in Palestine anyway, so we might as well be sincere and up front with our positions on the Palestinian question instead of using Hamas as an stand-in for the real issue: whether and to what extent we support organized and possibly violent resistance by Palestinians against Israeli rule.

[Comrade B]

The loyalty & unity that they share is within LARGE numbers. And actually, the Hamas is vastly greater than Israeli forces running right now. If you look back in this thread, you'll notice how much they've done for their people. And I'm not talking about being stronger either, but rather have larger numbers & are more organized than any other militant group out there right now.
They are bourgeois. I do not support bourgeois revolutions. This is only giving concessions, not bringing about a truly revolutionary society. The living standards will not increase for the Palestinians, and what do you think will happen to the Jewish population in Palestine and Israel now if Hamas were to win?

[khad]

IIRC, a number of people in revleft conditionally defended Israel's right to have nuclear weapons, arguing that it would be preferable to Iran having them.

The amount of understated tolerance for the Israeli status quo does reveal the limitations of "radical" positions expressed in this forum.

[The Vegan Marxist]

They are bourgeois. I do not support bourgeois revolutions. The living standards will not increase for the Palestinians, and what do you think will happen to the Jewish population in Palestine and Israel now if Hamas were to win?

The living conditions wouldn't increase? The living standards of the people that are formed with the Hamas are far better than the living standards given by the Zionist-State!

And the Hamas have specifically stated that they are not anti-semitic, & that any Jew can do what they want, as long as they don't support the Zionist-State against the Hamas, which this goes for anyone, for if they did then they'd be the enemy to them. Nothing anti-semitic about it whatsoever.

[Glenn Beck]

The amount of understated tolerance for the Israeli status quo does reveal the limitations of "radical" positions expressed in this forum. For those who haven't been paying attention:
The living standards will not increase for the Palestinians, and what do you think will happen to the Jewish population in Palestine and Israel now if Hamas were to win? Quite a nice attitude we see here, the status quo of Palestinian oppression is the more tolerable option, being that it is a steady state. What we should be really worried about is the revenge of the oppressed. Just what would those Palestinians do to the privileged caste of Israelis in Palestine who wouldn't lift a finger to improve their lot? Better to keep a lid on the whole thing than to ask such uncomfortable questions.

[Crux]

IIRC, a number of people in revleft conditionally defended Israel's right to have nuclear weapons, arguing that it would be preferable to Iran having them.

The amount of understated tolerance for the Israeli status quo does reveal the limitations of "radical" positions expressed in this forum.
Who exactly?

[Comrade B]

Quite a nice attitude we see here, the status quo of Palestinian oppression is the more tolerable option, being that it is a steady state. What we should be really worried about is the revenge of the oppressed. Just what would those Palestinians do to the privileged caste of Israelis in Palestine who wouldn't lift a finger to improve their lot? Better to keep a lid on the whole thing than to ask such uncomfortable questions.So... even though nothing will improve... we should support it... because you think that no one is going to seek out revenge... hell of an argument you have there

I remember a while ago reading that over 50% of Palestinians believed that the Protocols of the Elders of Zion was true.
Racism has been fostered by both sides to encourage obedience. It is still strong.

Might I also add, you are accusing me of being a conservative because I only support the PFLP, as opposed to supporting HAMAS. A REACTIONARY ORGANIZATION. Are you fucking crazy? Go ahead though, support the reactionaries.

I do not oppose them as much as I do Israel, but NO FUCKING WAY am I going to argue in their defense.

[Crux]

For those who haven't been paying attention: Quite a nice attitude we see here, the status quo of Palestinian oppression is the more tolerable option, being that it is a steady state. What we should be really worried about is the revenge of the oppressed. Just what would those Palestinians do to the privileged caste of Israelis in Palestine who wouldn't lift a finger to improve their lot? Better to keep a lid on the whole thing than to ask such uncomfortable questions.
No what we should really worried about is hamas inability to deliever national liberation for palestine. And even if they were to somehow win a military victory they have already, as has the fatah, murdered other palestinians. up until recently there was a virtual civil war, and no I do not believe either parties can deliver. So what is left then? Building an alternative of course.

[The Vegan Marxist]

So... even though nothing will improve... we should support it... because you think that no one is going to seek out revenge... hell of an argument you have there

I remember a while ago reading that over 50% of Palestinians believed that the Protocols of the Elders of Zion was true.
Racism has been fostered by both sides to encourage obedience. It is still strong.

Might I also add, you are accusing me of being a conservative because I only support the PFLP, as opposed to supporting HAMAS. A REACTIONARY ORGANIZATION. Are you fucking crazy? Go ahead though, support the reactionaries.

I do not oppose them as much as I do Israel, but NO FUCKING WAY am I going to argue in their defense.

Wow...you have a nice way of dodging replies to your statements. Your claim that 'nothing would improve' is false given that, as I already stated when I replied to the same comment you made before, the Hamas have given their people FAR better living conditions than the Zionist-State has ever given their people. So the idea that nothing would improve is misleading.

[danyboy27]

The Hamas won't create a 'great' future for the working class. But they can pave the way for the working class to be able to rise up & create such future.

And the Hamas is leading a revolution here against the Zionist-State, a violent revolution. They are very well organized, & unlike our friend above your comment, they have much more loyal numbers than the PLO. So yes, violence is what will move the revolution forward, but also organized violence against the Zionists & U.S. forces.

I really wonder how you can assume they are paving the way, they failed at everything so far toward israel.

[The Vegan Marxist]

I really wonder how you can assume they are paving the way, they failed at everything so far toward israel.

How have they 'failed at everything' when they are still committing revolutionary warfare against the Zionist-State? We, as communists, haven't brought our goals to action yet, so can I say that we 'failed at everything'? Right now, as they continue to fight, they are giving their people far better living conditions & letting the working class actually work towards advancement. So I believe, although as you claim they've 'failed at everything', they've done more good towards the advancement of their people than the Zionist-State, itself.

[red cat]

I really wonder how you can assume they are paving the way, they failed at everything so far toward israel.

This flawed logic is being used in more than one thread.

[The Ungovernable Farce]

Well, first off, there are no 'thousand relevant proofs', so that's a misconception on your part.

Although the site is opposed to the Hamas as well, it also points out how they've helped fund & manage schools, health care clinics, youth groups, daycare centers, etc.: http://www.adl.org/PresRele/IslEx_61/2694_61.asp

And then we have this site where it shows how 90% of their revenue funds go straight to health, social welfare, religious, cultural, & educational services: http://www.cfr.org/publication/8968/
You know who else funds and manages schools, health care clinics, daycare centers, etc? The Labour Party. The Obama administration also provides funding for schools, healthcare clinics, and daycare centres - should we support them as well?

I dont think it's wrong at all to support Hamas to the extent that they provide for their people and want the Israelis to fuck off. I may be a bit naive, but from what ive gathered, If Hamas ever gets rid of the Zionists, then Palestinian workers will be in such a vastly better position to start worrying about gaining control over property and means of production, since they will have gained their sovereignty.
Yeah, like in Iran or Zimbabwe, where they had anti-imperialist revolutions and now the working class is in a really good position. Oh, wait.

We're supposed to support what is the best option for the working class (outside of revolution).

Hamas is much better for the working class of Palestine, whilst the Israeli imperialists are bad for Israel and Palestinian workers.
I thought you were a Luxemburgist? Her views on nationalism were a lot more sensible than that (http://www.worldsocialism.org/articles/luxemburg_and_the_national.php).

[The Vegan Marxist]

You know who else funds and manages schools, health care clinics, daycare centers, etc? The Labour Party. The Obama administration also provides funding for schools, healthcare clinics, and daycare centres - should we support them as well?

Yeah, like in Iran or Zimbabwe, where they had anti-imperialist revolutions and now the working class is in a really good position. Oh, wait.

I thought you were a Luxemburgist? Her views on nationalism were a lot more sensible than that (http://www.worldsocialism.org/articles/luxemburg_and_the_national.php).

Yeah, & the labor party also gives 90% of it's revenue to such development for their people. Oh wait...no...sorry that's wrong. They don't!

Is the problem that the working class of Iran & Zimbabwe didn't advance because anti-imperialist forces took over, or because none of the people that were within Iran & Zimbabwe ever really in power nor advanced in anything, unlike the people of the Hamas territory?

[danyboy27]

How have they 'failed at everything' when they are still committing revolutionary warfare against the Zionist-State? We, as communists, haven't brought our goals to action yet, so can I say that we 'failed at everything'? Right now, as they continue to fight, they are giving their people far better living conditions & letting the working class actually work towards advancement. So I believe, although as you claim they've 'failed at everything', they've done more good towards the advancement of their people than the Zionist-State, itself.
this sentence would fit for the indian maoist, not for Hamas.
Unlike Hamas, the indian maoist have been able to win tactic and operational battle against the indian governement, take control of land and ressources, and eventually improve the lives of their people.

has i said earlier, i dont have a clue how to fix shit up, i dont have the necessary knowledge to come up with a good solution, but i do know that fighting israel with rocket made of car parts is a nonsense.

[The Vegan Marxist]

this sentence would fit for the indian maoist, not for Hamas.
Unlike Hamas, the indian maoist have been able to win tactic and operational battle against the indian governement, take control of land and ressources, and eventually improve the lives of their people.

has i said earlier, i dont have a clue how to fix shit up, i dont have the necessary knowledge to come up with a good solution, but i do know that fighting israel with rocket made of car parts is a nonsense.

The indian maoists are also leading a communist revolution. What I'm saying, along with the others here supporting the Hamas, is not them in bringing the workers struggle to the front lines, but rather to help eliminate those forces that are in the way for the working class people of that area to actually rise up & then lead their revolution, which then would be similar to the Indian & Nepalese Maoists' revolution. The Hamas are leading a revolution for independence against the Zionist-State & the U.S. imperialist forces. Once independence from these forces are gained, then the working class revolution can begin. Only then can we see such a huge uprise take place.

[danyboy27]

The indian maoists are also leading a communist revolution. What I'm saying, along with the others here supporting the Hamas, is not them in bringing the workers struggle to the front lines, but rather to help eliminate those forces that are in the way for the working class people of that area to actually rise up & then lead their revolution, which then would be similar to the Indian & Nepalese Maoists' revolution. The Hamas are leading a revolution for independence against the Zionist-State & the U.S. imperialist forces. Once independence from these forces are gained, then the working class revolution can begin. Only then can we see such a huge uprise take place.
i dont know if the Maoist are leading the revolution, i dont have enough information about them to aknowledge that, that would be prematured.

But they are achieving concrete, real military objective, and have been able to improve the lives of their folks

Hamas didnt gained nothing for their people, their military struggle is failing, The israeli are still confiscating their land, and bombing their infrastructure.

[red cat]

Hamas didnt gained nothing for their people, their military struggle is failing, The israeli are still confiscating their land, and bombing their infrastructure.

Almost the same could be said of the Indian Maoists and the Indian government in the early 70s. You never know what the Hamas will achieve forty years from now.

[Crux]

You never know what the Hamas will achieve forty years from now.
Why I imagine something similar to the present-day PLO. And if you concede Hamas is failing, why do you support them?

[StalinFanboy]

While nationalism is ultimately a reactionary ideology, history has shown that anti-imperialist movements can be progressive even if they are nationalist. Dismissing an anti-imperialist movement just because it is nationalist is ridiculous and ultra-leftist.
You're goddamn right it's ultra-leftist. I'll stay true to working class resistance, and you can support the bourgeoisie.

yay!

[red cat]

Why I imagine something similar to the present-day PLO.

Only you know why.


And if you concede Hamas is failing, why do you support them?:rolleyes:

EDIT: I feel a great urge to discuss on a certain leftist tendency regarding the question of success in even starting a movement, but let us not turn this into another tendency war. :)

[The Vegan Marxist]

Why I imagine something similar to the present-day PLO. And if you concede Hamas is failing, why do you support them?

Same reason why I support Communism & our struggle. Yes, we may not be the winning type just yet, but we've got the people on our side & are gaining numbers. The Hamas is the same.

[StalinFanboy]

The enemy of my enemy isn't necessarily my friend.


It's important for some of you fools to realize this.

[red cat]

The enemy of my enemy isn't necessarily my friend.


It's important for some of you fools to realize this.

Till they fight our enemy and take the side of the broad masses and do not harm us, I will give them the benefit of the doubt.

[The Vegan Marxist]

The enemy of my enemy isn't necessarily my friend.


It's important for some of you fools to realize this.

When did supporting someone mean they were my friends? I support them to protect the people over there & to fight against the Zionist-State & the imperialists, but as my comrade, those would be the workers struggling over there.

[Crux]

Only you know why.

:rolleyes:

EDIT: I feel a great urge to discuss on a certain leftist tendency regarding the question of success in even starting a movement, but let us not turn this into another tendency war. :)
Yes clearly you are clueless about the political origins, motives and usual end result of bourgeoise nationalism not to mention islamism and indeed the political method called marxism, which I suppose you imagine you have some relation to.

Whereas I feel the urge to discuss a certain posters unability to defend his own capitulation to the bourguise and therefore he feels he wants to change the subject of the thread. :)

[red cat]

Yes clearly you are clueless about the political origins, motives and usual end result of bourgeoise nationalism not to mention islamism and indeed the political method called marxism, which I suppose you imagine you have some relation to.

Whereas I feel the urge to discuss a certain posters unability to defend his own capitulation to the bourguise and therefore he feels he wants to change the subject of the thread. :)

Another example of capitulation to the bourgeoisie (http://marxists.anu.edu.au/archive/lenin/works/1920/jun/05.htm)


Consequently, one cannot at present confine oneself to a bare recognition or proclamation of the need for closer union between the working people of the various nations; a policy must be pursued that will achieve the closest alliance, with Soviet Russia, of all the national and colonial liberation movements. The form of this alliance should be determined by the degree of development of the communist movement in the proletariat of each country, or of the bourgeois-democratic liberation movement of the workers and peasants in backward countries or among backward nationalities.

-Lenin

[danyboy27]

Till they fight our enemy and take the side of the broad masses and do not harm us, I will give them the benefit of the doubt.

the problem is that, by supporting them in any way(manpower,money,ressources, political credibility) you give them power, a power they could eventually use against you at the end.

History is full of those great exemple where certain political groups tried to be friend with people who where reactionaries, and it ALWAYS ended badly.

Many conservatives supported Hitler and gave him money beccause he was an anti-socialist and an anti-communism, but at the end, those guy ended up screwed by the fascists real bad, many clergymen supported hitler beccause of his anti-semitism, but it didnt stoped him when he was in power to impose severe rules against the catholics church, and to blackmail them into shutting down their main political party to make room for the dictatorship.

[red cat]

the problem is that, by supporting them in any way(manpower,money,ressources, political credibility) you give them power, a power they could eventually use against you at the end.

History is full of those great exemple where certain political groups tried to be friend with people who where reactionaries, and it ALWAYS ended badly.

Many conservatives supported Hitler and gave him money beccause he was an anti-socialist and an anti-communism, but at the end, those guy ended up screwed by the fascists real bad, many clergymen supported hitler beccause of his anti-semitism, but it didnt stoped him when he was in power to impose severe rules against the catholics church, and to blackmail them into shutting down their main political party to make room for the dictatorship.

Hitler's movement was in a country which was already capitalist and NOT experiencing fascism yet. In general, any non-proletarian movement that challenges such systems is supposed to be reactionary.

On the other hand, the Hamas is fighting imperialists. Such a movement, even if led by the national bourgeoisie, is progressive. This alone is a reason enough to support them.

Of course, due to the era we live in, the national bourgeoisie, or any class other than the proletariat, can't lead a successful revolution against imperialism. But we have already seen the proletariat seizing leadership inside revisionist led organizations. We have seen entire communist parties taking shape from nationalist organizations. If it has happened in the past with other organizations, it can happen with Hamas as well.

[danyboy27]

Hitler's movement was in a country which was already capitalist and NOT experiencing fascism yet. In general, any non-proletarian movement that challenges such systems is supposed to be reactionary.

has far has i know, palestine is capitalist, you got bosses, small buisnesses, and the use of currency, accumulation of wealth is allowed.

but the real reason of that exemple was to explain that verry often, the ennemy of your ennemy can become your ennemy quick enough.




On the other hand, the Hamas is fighting imperialists. Such a movement, even if led by the national bourgeoisie, is progressive. This alone is a reason enough to support them.

and the german where not fighting western imperialism by busting in one of the biggest colonial empire of the world after britain? (France).
dosnt change nothing to the fact that the nazi where anti-semitic genocidal creazy. People who attack Imperialist regimes dosnt have a free pass of revolutionary sanctity.

Hell, the LRA(Lord Resistance Army) is fighting the governement of congo, Uganda and Sudan, if we dont look up to the fact that they are a sectarian fanatic group who kill and rape everything on sight, we could cheer up and call them leader against imperialism for fighting 3 oppressive governement at once!



Of course, due to the era we live in, the national bourgeoisie, or any class other than the proletariat, can't lead a successful revolution against imperialism. But we have already seen the proletariat seizing leadership inside revisionist led organizations. We have seen entire communist parties taking shape from nationalist organizations. If it has happened in the past with other organizations, it can happen with Hamas as well.
and those exemple speak for themselves about how efficient they where.

[The Vegan Marxist]

has far has i know, palestine is capitalist, you got bosses, small buisnesses, and the use of currency, accumulation of wealth is allowed.

but the real reason of that exemple was to explain that verry often, the ennemy of your ennemy can become your ennemy quick enough.



and the german where not fighting western imperialism by busting in one of the biggest colonial empire of the world after britain? (France).
dosnt change nothing to the fact that the nazi where anti-semitic genocidal creazy. People who attack Imperialist regimes dosnt have a free pass of revolutionary sanctity.

Hell, the LRA(Lord Resistance Army) is fighting the governement of congo, Uganda and Sudan, if we dont look up to the fact that they are a sectarian fanatic group who kill and rape everything on sight, we could cheer up and call them leader against imperialism for fighting 3 oppressive governement at once!


and those exemple speak for themselves about how efficient they where.

Yes, Palestine is very capitalist, theocratic-capitalism. Which is why the Hamas is heavily anti-capitalist.

And you point out a good reason why one might not should support every anti-imperialist rebel group, such as the LRA. And that reason is because they killed & raped innocent people. But there's where we draw differences between the LRA & the Hamas. The LRA was just as bad as the regimes they were fighting against, while the Hamas, as I've pointed out numerously, has taken care of their people & have not partaken in the deliberate killing of innocent people. So excuse me if I still choose to support the Hamas.

[danyboy27]

Yes, Palestine is very capitalist, theocratic-capitalism. Which is why the Hamas is heavily anti-capitalist.

And you point out a good reason why one might not should support every anti-imperialist rebel group, such as the LRA. And that reason is because they killed & raped innocent people. But there's where we draw differences between the LRA & the Hamas. The LRA was just as bad as the regimes they were fighting against, while the Hamas, as I've pointed out numerously, has taken care of their people & have not partaken in the deliberate killing of innocent people. So excuse me if I still choose to support the Hamas.

well, i fail to see how dropping rocket made of car spare part on jewish settlements is not a form of violence against civilians.

[Comrade B]

Hamas uses public aid like Verizon does. It is an advertising scheme. Not a goal of theirs.

Hamas may also embrace some of the better aspects that religion has (charity, ect.) however I am not a clerical communist. I am a Marxist communist.

I will put no effort into opposing Hamas, because the West already creates enough opposition propaganda against them, but it is a serious mistake to support people just because they oppose the US. The Nazis created social programs for children as well, and were opposed to liberalism. They also would like to kill any communist or left thinker they find.

I ignored that question, now I have addressed it.

Will you address the fact that this looks very, very similar to the religious rebels lead by Khomeini who later attempted to kill all the communist in Iran?

[The Vegan Marxist]

well, i fail to see how dropping rocket made of car spare part on jewish settlements is not a form of violence against civilians.

They've been waging revolutionary warfare against the Zionist-State. They've never deliberately killed innocent civilians. If one is an advocate of a revolution, not implying whether you are or not since I don't know if you do, then one has to be ready for innocent people to be killed accidentally through cross-fire, shrapnel, etc.

[red cat]

has far has i know, palestine is capitalist, you got bosses, small buisnesses, and the use of currency, accumulation of wealth is allowed.

Those features can be due to comprador capitalism too. Since when do you think Palestine has been capitalist ? A capitalist country naturally tends towards imperialism. Where is Palestinian imperialism ? How many Palestinian companies operate in other countries ? How many countrys' internal affairs do they try to intervene in ?


but the real reason of that exemple was to explain that verry often, the ennemy of your ennemy can become your ennemy quick enough.



and the german where not fighting western imperialism by busting in one of the biggest colonial empire of the world after britain? (France).
dosnt change nothing to the fact that the nazi where anti-semitic genocidal creazy. People who attack Imperialist regimes dosnt have a free pass of revolutionary sanctity.

One imperialist power fighting another imperialist power is different from the resistance provided by the masses in semi-feudal semi-colonial countries.


Hell, the LRA(Lord Resistance Army) is fighting the governement of congo, Uganda and Sudan, if we dont look up to the fact that they are a sectarian fanatic group who kill and rape everything on sight, we could cheer up and call them leader against imperialism for fighting 3 oppressive governement at once!

The LRA has received direct military assistance from the government of Sudan. This means that the MC bloc controlling Sudan sponsored them. They are not aiming for national-liberation, but only a change of imperialist regimes. This is obvious from their methods.


and those exemple speak for themselves about how efficient they where.


So what ? Your line means that we should have opposed the revolutionary Telenghana and Tebhaga movements of the CPI, from which after many breaks, the CPI(Maoist) was formed.

[The Vegan Marxist]

Hamas uses public aid like Verizon does. It is an advertising scheme. Not a goal of theirs.

Hamas may also embrace some of the better aspects that religion has (charity, ect.) however I am not a clerical communist. I am a Marxist communist.

I will put no effort into opposing Hamas, because the West already creates enough opposition propaganda against them, but it is a serious mistake to support people just because they oppose the US. The Nazis created social programs for children as well, and were opposed to liberalism. They also would like to kill any communist or left thinker they find.

I ignored that question, now I have addressed it.

Will you address the fact that this looks very, very similar to the religious rebels lead by Khomeini who later attempted to kill all the communist in Iran?

Well, let me first answer your question. Khomeini was a rebel to those he opposed, but let's be real about his rule. He was never within the best interests of his people, & it went to such an extent that poverty went up to around 45%. So to answer your question, I would say he was very much different.

Now, to address the somewhat comparison to the Nazis. They brought some social reforms to a certain extent, but never progressed as far as giving 90% of their own revenue to the advancement of so many social institutions for the advancement of their people, in which the Hamas could use for other reasons that would put them in more powerful elements but have chosen to help their people out. The parallels, if any, between the Nazi regime & the Hamas are very little.

[StalinFanboy]

For fuck's sake, what is with liberal "marxists" and "anarchists" thinking that communism is some sort of safety net for people? Communism is about the liberation of the working class.

[danyboy27]

They've been waging revolutionary warfare against the Zionist-State. They've never deliberately killed innocent civilians. If one is an advocate of a revolution, not implying whether you are or not since I don't know if you do, then one has to be ready for innocent people to be killed accidentally through cross-fire, shrapnel, etc.

are you really sure?
so far, 90% of the rocket attack performed by Hamas where dirrected at civilian infrastructures, civilian building and civilians communities.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel,_2008

of course, israel did way more damage at the palestinian, but that not the issue, the issue is, supporting a group that is deliberatly launching attack against civilian for political goal is just wrong.

They did it before in the 90s, blowing up civilian bus, i am not even surprised that they are deliberatly targeting civilian building today.

The training of child soldier, and the indoctrination at school to recruit new troops is also a verry disturbing feature of the Hamas regime.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIBNRVgq59Y
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6WHdWgES-Uw&feature=related

of course, israel is not really better, if you consider the whole publicity they make at school to promote the IDF, but that again, not the point.

The point is , this is sick and twisted, no matter if the israeli indoctrinate their children into joining the IDF or if its Hamas that is brainwashing children into being martyr.

If being revolutionary mean supporting those sick and twisted things, then fuck it, restrict me now.

[danyboy27]

Those features can be due to comprador capitalism too. Since when do you think Palestine has been capitalist ? A capitalist country naturally tends towards imperialism. Where is Palestinian imperialism ? How many Palestinian companies operate in other countries ? How many countrys' internal affairs do they try to intervene in ?

Capitalism dosnt automaticly mean imperialism, and it also dosnt mean that there is big corporation or buisnesses making million, exploitation can be verry subtitle but it still there.
I highly doubt that the guy who are passing black market stuff from Egypt live in Dire consequence and are probably selling stuff at high price to the local population.


One imperialist power fighting another imperialist power is different from the resistance provided by the masses in semi-feudal semi-colonial countries.

But at the time, germany wasnt an imperialist power, it was a state who have been subjected to other power.



The LRA has received direct military assistance from the government of Sudan. This means that the MC bloc controlling Sudan sponsored them. They are not aiming for national-liberation, but only a change of imperialist regimes. This is obvious from their methods.

and Hamas dosnt receive no assistance from Iran or the Hezbollah? give me a break.




So what ? Your line means that we should have opposed the revolutionary Telenghana and Tebhaga movements of the CPI, from which after many breaks, the CPI(Maoist) was formed.
no, dosnt mean that, but its mean that the degree of failure for that is pretty high dont you think?

[Comrade B]

Well, let me first answer your question. Khomeini was a rebel to those he opposed, but let's be real about his rule. He was never within the best interests of his people, & it went to such an extent that poverty went up to around 45%. So to answer your question, I would say he was very much different.
During the movement, a lot of people believed that what would be created was a religious socialist republic (I think Mousavi was actually a former supporter of this idea), it didn't work out. I really don't think that Hamas plans on creating much social change aside from a new religious dominance.

I was using the Nazis as a bit of a drastic example. My point was more that because they have created some benefits for the people, I think their ideology would create more suffering than the benefits they have made do good for their people.

[The Ghost of Revolutions]

They've been waging revolutionary warfare against the Zionist-State. They've never deliberately killed innocent civilians. If one is an advocate of a revolution, not implying whether you are or not since I don't know if you do, then one has to be ready for innocent people to be killed accidentally through cross-fire, shrapnel, etc.

Hamas intentionally kills civilians. Hamas suicide bombers have attacked public buses, hotels, train stations, night clubs, and market places. Hamas even admits they were behind these attacks. I will never support a group that attacks inocent civilains. Also think of how many workers were killed in these attacks.

[Comrade Lucifer]

Didn't Hamas try to undermine PGFTU?

[Crux]

Another example of capitulation to the bourgeoisie (http://marxists.anu.edu.au/archive/lenin/works/1920/jun/05.htm)
No, unlike you Lenin is quite clear on the matter. In fact you'd do well to read something by him some day.

Here's more from the article you quoted:


With regard to the more backward states and nations, in which feudal or patriarchal and patriarchal-peasant relations predominate, it is particularly important to bear in mind:

first, that all Communist parties must assist the bourgeois-democratic liberation movement in these countries, and that the duty of rendering the most active assistance rests primarily with the workers of the country the backward nation is colonially or financially dependent on;


second, the need for a struggle against the clergy and other influential reactionary and medieval elements in backward countries;


third, the need to combat Pan-Islamism and similar trends, which strive to combine the liberation movement against European and American imperialism with an attempt to strengthen the positions of the khans, landowners, mullahs, etc.;

[...]

fifth, the need for a determined struggle against attempts to give a communist colouring to bourgeois-democratic liberation trends in the backward countries; the Communist International should support bourgeois-democratic national movements in colonial and backward countries only on condition that, in these countries, the elements of future proletarian parties, which will be communist not only in name, are brought together and trained to understand their special tasks, i.e., those of the struggle against the bourgeois-democratic movements within their own nations. The Communist International must enter into a temporary alliance with bourgeois democracy in the colonial and backward countries, but should not merge with it, and should under all circumstances uphold the independence of the proletarian movement even if it is in its most embryonic form;

[The Ungovernable Farce]

Yes, Palestine is very capitalist, theocratic-capitalism. Which is why the Hamas is heavily anti-capitalist.

Make sense! Hamas are a capitalist group. They do not challenge capitalism. Why is this so difficult for you to grasp?

Didn't Hamas try to undermine PGFTU?
Yes, yes they did (http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2007/07/2008525172856148863.html). (Cue whining from "anti-imperialist" idiots about how Al-Jazeera is an Israeli propaganda tool, I suppose.) But hey, who cares about boring stuff like attacks on trade unionists? Everyone knows what's really important isn't whether you attack workers attempting to organise, all you need to do is say America is bad and you'll automatically receive complete uncritical support from leftists.

[Scary Monster]

Hamas is a reactionary power fighting a reactionary power.
Anyone who knows a days-worth of Iranian history knows not to trust religious reactionaries to back you up against an imperialist power. The first people to be targeted after the Shah was overthrown were the Marxists. They were killed in tremendous numbers.

I view this whole situation as: Reactionary Group Providing Food and Education to your people vs. Foreign Imperialist Reactionary Group Wanting to murder and bomb all your people

Even if Hamas turn out to be anti-communist (which no one here can say beyond speculation), at least they dont want to subject their people to complete genocide!!

[The Ungovernable Farce]

Even if Hamas turn out to be anti-communist (which no one here can say beyond speculation)...
No. Hamas are anti-communist. We can say this beyond speculation. It says so in their covenant (http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp).


Article Twenty-Five:

The Islamic Resistance Movement respects these movements and appreciates their circumstances and the conditions surrounding and affecting them. It encourages them as long as they do not give their allegiance to the Communist East or the Crusading West.
Read this (http://www.lajewsforpeace.org/Essays/OConnell.htm). Hamas have made their ideology clear, and it's the same as that of the Islamist thugs who've attacked workers' organisations in places like Iran.

[bricolage]

No. Hamas are anti-communist. We can say this beyond speculation. It says so in their covenant (http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp).
]

In all fairness I'd imagine 'Communist East' refers to the Soviet Union, so in the context of that quote Hamas are anti-communist only if you see the Soviet Union as communist.

[danyboy27]

I view this whole situation as: Reactionary Group Providing Food and Education to your people vs. Foreign Imperialist Reactionary Group Wanting to murder and bomb all your people

Even if Hamas turn out to be anti-communist (which no one here can say beyond speculation), at least they dont want to subject their people to complete genocide!!
you are right, they dont want to kill their people, just other peoples.

make sense

[Comrade B]

Even if Hamas turn out to be anti-communist (which no one here can say beyond speculation), at least they dont want to subject their people to complete genocide!!
I really don't think that Israel intends on genocide... not to say their government isn't extremely cruel.

Hamas provides concessions to the people under their leadership to maintain their popularity. It is like giving rations to the military, if you didn't do it, no one would support you.

Hamas gives Palestinian resistance a bad name with their anti-Semitic rhetoric and propaganda. The fight is against imperialism, not Judaism.

[The Ungovernable Farce]

In all fairness I'd imagine 'Communist East' refers to the Soviet Union, so in the context of that quote Hamas are anti-communist only if you see the Soviet Union as communist.
That is true, but I think Hamas's opposition to the Soviet Union is based on an opposition to the idea of communism, not any kind of alternative communist critique. I can't see them being any friendlier to any other left project. Obv they don't bother specifically stating their opposition to Trotskyism/left communism/anarchism, but I think you can work out their political views from passages like:


Article Twenty-Two:

For a long time, the enemies have been planning, skillfully and with precision, for the achievement of what they have attained. They took into consideration the causes affecting the current of events. They strived to amass great and substantive material wealth which they devoted to the realisation of their dream. With their money, they took control of the world media, news agencies, the press, publishing houses, broadcasting stations, and others. With their money they stirred revolutions in various parts of the world with the purpose of achieving their interests and reaping the fruit therein. They were behind the French Revolution, the Communist revolution and most of the revolutions we heard and hear about, here and there. With their money they formed secret societies, such as Freemasons, Rotary Clubs, the Lions and others in different parts of the world for the purpose of sabotaging societies and achieving Zionist interests...

Article Twenty-Seven:


Secularism completely contradicts religious ideology. Attitudes, conduct and decisions stem from ideologies.
That is why, with all our appreciation for The Palestinian Liberation Organization - and what it can develop into - and without belittling its role in the Arab-Israeli conflict, we are unable to exchange the present or future Islamic Palestine with the secular idea. The Islamic nature of Palestine is part of our religion and whoever takes his religion lightly is a loser.
Communism = un-Islamic = bad.

[red cat]

I really do not know how to convince someone who opposes a popular movement against imperialism by hiding behind excuses of any "ism"... Even if Lenin had meant what you think, ultimately the masses of Palestine alone will decide how they will combat imperialism, not you or even Lenin. However, we shall now see how Lenin's theory is globally applicable and stands in favour of the Hamas.


No, unlike you Lenin is quite clear on the matter. In fact you'd do well to read something by him some day.

Here's more from the article you quoted:

Originally Posted by Lenin
With regard to the more backward states and nations, in which feudal or patriarchal and patriarchal-peasant relations predominate, it is particularly important to bear in mind:


first, that all Communist parties must assist the bourgeois-democratic liberation movement in these countries, and that the duty of rendering the most active assistance rests primarily with the workers of the country the backward nation is colonially or financially dependent on;


second, the need for a struggle against the clergy and other influential reactionary and medieval elements in backward countries;


third, the need to combat Pan-Islamism and similar trends, which strive to combine the liberation movement against European and American imperialism with an attempt to strengthen the positions of the khans, landowners, mullahs, etc.;

[...]

fifth, the need for a determined struggle against attempts to give a communist colouring to bourgeois-democratic liberation trends in the backward countries; the Communist International should support bourgeois-democratic national movements in colonial and backward countries only on condition that, in these countries, the elements of future proletarian parties, which will be communist not only in name, are brought together and trained to understand their special tasks, i.e., those of the struggle against the bourgeois-democratic movements within their own nations. The Communist International must enter into a temporary alliance with bourgeois democracy in the colonial and backward countries, but should not merge with it, and should under all circumstances uphold the independence of the proletarian movement even if it is in its most embryonic form;

This is applicable word-to-word to a colony or semi-colony of the type that Lenin observed. The relations of production are essentially feudal, upheld culturally by the clergy etc. Sometimes the reactionary feudal ruling elements would engage in fights among themselves as a result of contradiction between different imperialist powers, which they would project as a war of the masses against imperialism. In other cases, they would try to bring in feudal goals into the liberation movements and redirect it to strengthen their position.

In the case of Palestine, the situation is different. Here imperialism is trying to replace a whole nation by another population and culture, combined by an all-out war against the Palestinians. In the unoccupied parts of Palestine, the Islamic clergy does not support Israeli aggression. Rather it is the Zionist clergy in the occupied parts that does. So, they are to be opposed. The Palestinian clergy might be supporting some other form of imperialism, but that is only a minor contradiction compared to the present Israeli threat. Also, the popularity of the Hamas is an evidence against the possibility of feudal lords operating it.

At present, when there is no Communist International, communists from outside won't be able to train elements from Palestine does not necessarily mean that we will stop supporting the liberation movements. With each progress in the society, such as even the qualitative development from colony to a capitalist nation, the Palestinian proletariat will strengthen itself and one day establish socialism in their land.

The strength of Leninism does not lie in its mechanical interpretation, but in its creative application.

[Saorsa]

Hamas, in my opinion, should not be supported on a political basis. They are a reactionary Islamic theocratic organisation which upholds and promotes the oppression of women, gays, other religions and so on. And they have absolutely no plans whatsoever to transform social relations in any state they control. They are not anti-capitalists, they are anti-worker.

However, at the same time as that, we must recognise that the Palestinian people are living in a state of horrific oppression, with millions quite literally under siege and generations of people brought up doomed to spend their whole lives in a military, legal and economic prison. Hamas is fighting the Israeli state responsible for this slow genocide, and we should support their military struggle against the Zionists. Not in the weird Trotskyist terms of forming a 'military bloc' between Hamas and our non-existent armed wings, but just in terms of our political position. When Israeli tanks are rumbling into Gaza, I wholeheartedly support the young men in green headbands putting their lives on the line to defend their communities from destruction.

I do not however have any trust in Hamas as a force for the national liberation of the Palestinian people. The Palestinian people need a revolutionary communist organisation that will wage both the military struggle against the Israeli occupation, and the class struggle against capitalism and all other oppressive relations, institutions and ideas.

We need to support the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine. (http://www.pflp.ps/english/)

My organisation, the Workers Party of New Zealand, is running a solidarity campaign (http://wpnz-pflp-solidarity.blogspot.com/) with the PFLP. We are selling tshirts that say "resistance is not terrorism", and all the money raised through this is sent to the PFLP to buy bullets and bombs that they can use on the IDF. It's a concrete form of solidarity that actually contributes beyond words and posturing to the liberation of the oppressed people of Palestine.

If anyone wants to help bring down Israel while supporting a secular, Marxist resistance group that supports rights for women and equality for all, you might want to think about ordering a shirt. We've been sending them all over the world, from Germany to Chile. And since the PFLP, unlike Hamas, does not recieve funding from reactionary Arab regimes and instead calls for their overthrow, it's especially important that revolutionaries in the West do what they can to support the most politically advanced resistance group in occupied Palestine.

[red cat]

Hamas, in my opinion, should not be supported on a political basis. They are a reactionary Islamic theocratic organisation which upholds and promotes the oppression of women, gays, other religions and so on. And they have absolutely no plans whatsoever to transform social relations in any state they control. They are not anti-capitalists, they are anti-worker.

However, at the same time as that, we must recognise that the Palestinian people are living in a state of horrific oppression, with millions quite literally under siege and generations of people brought up doomed to spend their whole lives in a military, legal and economic prison. Hamas is fighting the Israeli state responsible for this slow genocide, and we should support their military struggle against the Zionists. Not in the weird Trotskyist terms of forming a 'military bloc' between Hamas and our non-existent armed wings, but just in terms of our political position. When Israeli tanks are rumbling into Gaza, I wholeheartedly support the young men in green headbands putting their lives on the line to defend their communities from destruction.

I do not however have any trust in Hamas as a force for the national liberation of the Palestinian people. The Palestinian people need a revolutionary communist organisation that will wage both the military struggle against the Israeli occupation, and the class struggle against capitalism and all other oppressive relations, institutions and ideas.

We need to support the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine. (http://www.pflp.ps/english/)

My organisation, the Workers Party of New Zealand, is running a solidarity campaign (http://wpnz-pflp-solidarity.blogspot.com/) with the PFLP. We are selling tshirts that say "resistance is not terrorism", and all the money raised through this is sent to the PFLP to buy bullets and bombs that they can use on the IDF. It's a concrete form of solidarity that actually contributes beyond words and posturing to the liberation of the oppressed people of Palestine.

If anyone wants to help bring down Israel while supporting a secular, Marxist resistance group that supports rights for women and equality for all, you might want to think about ordering a shirt. We've been sending them all over the world, from Germany to Chile. And since the PFLP, unlike Hamas, does not recieve funding from reactionary Arab regimes and instead calls for their overthrow, it's especially important that revolutionaries in the West do what they can to support the most politically advanced resistance group in occupied Palestine.

If the PFLP is a communist group with a successful military wing, then we should support them and uphold their line on Hamas as well as on every other matter concerning Palestine.

[Saorsa]

If the PFLP is a communist group with a successful military wing, then we should support them and uphold their line on Hamas as well as on every other matter concerning Palestine.

Their lines is that, while they obviously disagree with Hamas and Fatah on plenty of things, all the Palestinian resistance groups need to unite against Israel and work together. They call for Hamas and Fatah to mend their relationship and rebuild the PLO, and have facilitated 'unity talks' between all the various factions. I'm not entirely convinced of this, seeing as how Fatah and the Palestinian Authority it controls openly collaborate with Israel and act as a police force for it in the West Bank. Comrade Ah'mad Sadat, General Secretary of the PFLP, was imprisoned by the PA authorities and then handed over to peacekeeping troops, who stood aside when the IDF later stormed the prison and kidnapped him. He's now in permanent isolation in an Israeli jail.

Just in the past couple of days, Fatah's PA police have arrested four PFLP comrades. If Fatah is openly suppressing resistance groups in the West Bank, if Fatah is openly attacking the PFLP and suppressing it's activities, I don't see how the PFLP can call for unity with it. But that's their line, and they're the people on the ground. However uncertain I may be about it, it's not going to stop me from supporting them.

[red cat]

Their lines is that, while they obviously disagree with Hamas and Fatah on plenty of things, all the Palestinian resistance groups need to unite against Israel and work together. They call for Hamas and Fatah to mend their relationship and rebuild the PLO, and have facilitated 'unity talks' between all the various factions. I'm not entirely convinced of this, seeing as how Fatah and the Palestinian Authority it controls openly collaborate with Israel and act as a police force for it in the West Bank. Comrade Ah'mad Sadat, General Secretary of the PFLP, was imprisoned by the PA authorities and then handed over to peacekeeping troops, who stood aside when the IDF later stormed the prison and kidnapped him. He's now in permanent isolation in an Israeli jail.

Just in the past couple of days, Fatah's PA police have arrested four PFLP comrades. If Fatah is openly suppressing resistance groups in the West Bank, if Fatah is openly attacking the PFLP and suppressing it's activities, I don't see how the PFLP can call for unity with it. But that's their line, and they're the people on the ground. However uncertain I may be about it, it's not going to stop me from supporting them.

Causes might be many. Unknown incidents or inner party struggle to name a few. However, the Palestinian proletariat knows best about its country. So no matter how weird its tactics may seem to us outsiders, as long as the CP continues waging revolution, it must have our full support.

[The Vegan Marxist]

Yes, we need to support the communist group the PFLP, but understand that the PFLP has shown their support towards the Hamas, & vice versa. The PFLP consist of university socialists, middle class type people. While the Hamas consists of the peasantry of Palestine, which is a big number over there. They both need to work together & take down the Zionist-State or we will never see an independent Palestine.

[khad]

In case you peeps missed the memo:

http://www.almanar.com.lb/newssite/NewsDetails.aspx?id=125086&language=en


PFLP, Hamas Discuss Unity in Beirut
http://www.almanar.com.lb/NewsSite/WebsiteImages/PicturesFolder/8a7c87e3-bebb-4069-9823-c88b2cc55c1e_top.jpg (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:void%280%29)

18/02/2010 Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP) officials welcomed a delegation of Hamas leaders into their Beirut headquarters on Wednesday, for discussions on the re-initiation of factional talks on Palestinian unity.

Marwan Abdul Aal, a PFLP Politburo member, headed up the discussions, while the Hamas delegation was fronted by Ali Barakeh, a statement from the Palestinian Authority representatives office in Lebanon said.

The political leaders sat to discuss a PFLP proposal to reunify Palestinian factions, which the statement described only as a plan that would "activate the Palestinian political framework and encourage cooperation and understanding."

Abdul Aal wrote in the statement that the PFLP effort was the result of an urgent need to find grounds for party negotiations and to work on reasonable and achievable expectations.

Barakeh said Hamas would seriously consider the proposal, which he said was proof of the concern of the party for a resolution to the Palestinian situation.

[Saorsa]

The PFLP consist of university socialists, middle class type people.

That's not true. What on earth are you basing that on?


While the Hamas consists of the peasantry of Palestine, which is a big number over there

Um... what?

[Saorsa]

In case you peeps missed the memo:

Yes, I was aware of that. They also hosted a unity meeting of all factions around the same time.

http://www.pflp.ps/english/?q=pflp-hosts-national-unity-meeting-all-factions-gaz

[The Vegan Marxist]

That's not true. What on earth are you basing that on?



Um... what?


The current PFLP draws its support from urban, usually university educated Palestinians of varying ages who lead a more secular lifestyle, hold liberal beliefs on social issues, and socialist views on economic issues. Whereas Hamas completely dominates the lower class Gaza, Qalqilya, and Hebron, the PFLP has its roots among the urban middle class, often Christians like their founder George Habash who fear Islamisation of the Palestinians and the erasure of the rights of minorities within a Hamas theocracy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popular_Front_for_the_Liberation_of_Palestine#Memb ership_profile

Though, if you can prove me wrong on this, then I'd gladly appreciate it. Either way, my comment stands that the PFLP must unify with the Hamas if we are ever to see an independent Palestine.

[Saorsa]

Dude, you can't just take one look at wikipedia and assume it's true. That entire paragraph is rubbish. Plus, and I may be wrong about this as I'm not an expert on Palestine, I don't think there's much of a Palestinian peasantry these days.

[The Vegan Marxist]

Dude, you can't just take one look at wikipedia and assume it's true. That entire paragraph is rubbish. Plus, and I may be wrong about this as I'm not an expert on Palestine, I don't think there's much of a Palestinian peasantry these days.

I don't think I'm taking it as complete truth when I stated that if it could be proven wrong then I'd gladly like to see. I'm open-minded about it right now.

[khad]

Yes, I was aware of that. They also hosted a unity meeting of all factions around the same time.

http://www.pflp.ps/english/?q=pflp-hosts-national-unity-meeting-all-factions-gaz
I'll save the trouble for many folks here:

"Bourgeois nationalist opportunism!!!!!!!1111"

[The Vegan Marxist]

I'll save the trouble for many folks here:

"Bourgeois nationalist opportunism!!!!!!!1111"

How is it bourgeois nationalist opportunism? These groups need to form up together & band against the Zionist-State.

[Crux]

This is applicable word-to-word to a colony or semi-colony of the type that Lenin observed. The relations of production are essentially feudal, upheld culturally by the clergy etc. Sometimes the reactionary feudal ruling elements would engage in fights among themselves as a result of contradiction between different imperialist powers, which they would project as a war of the masses against imperialism. In other cases, they would try to bring in feudal goals into the liberation movements and redirect it to strengthen their position.

In the case of Palestine, the situation is different. Here imperialism is trying to replace a whole nation by another population and culture, combined by an all-out war against the Palestinians. In the unoccupied parts of Palestine, the Islamic clergy does not support Israeli aggression. Rather it is the Zionist clergy in the occupied parts that does. So, they are to be opposed. The Palestinian clergy might be supporting some other form of imperialism, but that is only a minor contradiction compared to the present Israeli threat. Also, the popularity of the Hamas is an evidence against the possibility of feudal lords operating it.

At present, when there is no Communist International, communists from outside won't be able to train elements from Palestine does not necessarily mean that we will stop supporting the liberation movements. With each progress in the society, such as even the qualitative development from colony to a capitalist nation, the Palestinian proletariat will strengthen itself and one day establish socialism in their land.

The strength of Leninism does not lie in its mechanical interpretation, but in its creative application.
So there is no clerical caste in Palestine? I wouldn't be so sure. Yes the lack of a communist international has made many forget all the lessons of Marx and Lenin, abandoning their own movement in favour of, yes, bourgeois nationalism not having an independent political position, indeed refusing to have one in reference to some abstract right of the "people to define themselves" . And that socialism will "one day establish" itself seems utterly idealist. No as lenin correctly states the communists can under no circumstance sacrifice the worker's struggle in favour hiding behind, even giving a communist tinge to bourgeois nationalists. Is that not waht has been done in this thread?

PFLP's struggle for unity might very well be progressive, depending on their long-term objectives But again, the struggle for the working class is now, not in some distant future. This struggle is also inseparable from the struggle to defeat imperialism.

[black magick hustla]

I'll save the trouble for many folks here:

"Bourgeois nationalist opportunism!!!!!!!1111"

tbh if the resistance wins (which it will not) the pflp militants are going to end up with bullets in their heads. This is the history of leftism and the islamist reactionaries.

[The Ungovernable Farce]

tbh if the resistance wins (which it will not) the pflp militants are going to end up with bullets in their heads. This is the history of leftism and the islamist reactionaries.
Oh, come on, just because Islamists have persecuted leftists when they've gained power in Iran and Pakistan and Afghanistan and they've attacked leftists even without gaining power in places like Algeria, I'm sure it's completely rational and not at all delusional for leftists to insist that this time everything will be different and Hamas won't just behave like every successful Islamist group ever. No, wait...

[khad]

Oh, come on, just because Islamists have persecuted leftists when they've gained power in Iran and Pakistan and Afghanistan and they've attacked leftists even without gaining power in places like Algeria, I'm sure it's completely rational and not at all delusional for leftists to insist that this time everything will be different and Hamas won't just behave like every successful Islamist group ever. No, wait...
Like you Western "leftists" treated the Afghan communists with any more regard. I say it's completely delusional for any third world leftist to care about anything the Western left sect ghetto has to say.

[Crux]

And say it is delusional to consider oneself a marxist and a leninist yet reject the basic tenents of proletarian internationalism. "third world-ism" is no less a petit-bourgeois illusion than eurocentrism.

And essentially, this is a discussion forum, not some world revolutionary command center, we can say basically what we want, because we are discussing, so our motivation for not wanting to defend your standpoint have very little to do with people in the third world.

[khad]

^A typical trotskyist chauvinist evasion. You have no right to talk about leftwing solidarity when your folk have been trashing socialist movements throughout history and justifying imperialism against them.

[danyboy27]

Like you Western "leftists" treated the Afghan communists with any more regard. I say it's completely delusional for any third world leftist to care about anything the Western left sect ghetto has to say.
i dont any post in this discussion that implies that we should force or influence the palestinians to listen to us.

we are only talking, nobody is forced to listen to us.

[Crux]

^A typical trotskyist chauvinist evasion. You have no right to talk about leftwing solidarity when your folk have been trashing socialist movements throughout history and justifying imperialism against them.
Whilst you have no right to claim ludicrous bullshit you know nothing about. The comrades have actually met with the PFLP, if you are so hot for them. And if anyone's been justifying imperialism it has been the idea of peaceful cooperation put forward by the stalinist bloc. And it is this continued idea that motivates this faux "anti-imperialism", that clearly breaches from revolutionary marxism. If you wonder why the ex-pro moscow, and most "anti-revisionist" parties of any size, rather talk in terms of "democracy" than socialism and revolution internationally this is easily found in the doctrines of the USSR from the late 1920's and forward. So really, you are not the one to talk.

[khad]

Whilst you have no right to claim ludicrous bullshit you know nothing about. The comrades have actually met with the PFLP, if you are so hot for them. And if anyone's been justifying imperialism it has been the idea of peaceful cooperation put forward by the stalinist bloc. And it is this continued idea that motivates this faux "anti-imperialism", that clearly breaches from revolutionary marxism. If you wonder why the ex-pro moscow, and most "anti-revisionist" parties of any size, rather talk in terms of "democracy" than socialism and revolution internationally this is easily found in the doctrines of the USSR from the late 1920's and forward. So really, you are not the one to talk.
All I see is an ulta-left rationalization of inaction. Oh yes, the Afghan communists were pro-Moscow and reformist, especially in the Parcham group, which is why western Trotskyists like you (with the exception of the Sparts, those glorious bastards) did not lift one finger to speak in favor of the Afghan nation when it was under direct attack from Western imperialists.

[Devrim]

Even if Hamas turn out to be anti-communist (which no one here can say beyond speculation), at least they dont want to subject their people to complete genocide!!


In all fairness I'd imagine 'Communist East' refers to the Soviet Union, so in the context of that quote Hamas are anti-communist only if you see the Soviet Union as communist.

Of course, HAMAS is virulently anti-communist. It is a part of the Muslim brotherhood, which is a rabidly anti-communist organisation. Basically political Islam, and more specifically Sunni political Islam, is extremely right-wing. They are the Middle Eastern equivalent of the 'evangelic Christian right' in the US.

HAMAS is also extremely anti-semitic. They acknowledge the 'Protocols of the elders of Zion' and see the Russian revolution as a Jewish plot.

Please if you are going to support HAMAS, there is a logic to do it on the basis that they are fighting against imperialism, but don't try to paint them as being in anyway pro-socialist. They are not. You might succeed in fooling yourself, but I don't think many other people will take you seriously.

Devrim

[Crux]

All I see is an ulta-left rationalization of inaction. Oh yes, the Afghan communists were pro-Moscow and reformist, especially in the Parcham group, which is why western Trotskyists like you (with the exception of the Sparts, those glorious bastards) did not lift one finger to speak in favor of the Afghan nation when it was under direct attack from Western imperialists.
You might not know it but we fully support armed resistance, especially in the case of palestine. However, this can not and should not be equal to support for Hamas, for the reasons I have explained already.
As for Afghanistan, i wasn't around at the time, but i am pretty sure we had a sensible approach. i could try and dig up some old Militant articles if you are curious.

[The Vegan Marxist]

You might not know it but we fully support armed resistance, especially in the case of palestine. However, this can not and should not be equal to support for Hamas, for the reasons I have explained already.
As for Afghanistan, i wasn't around at the time, but i am pretty sure we had a sensible approach. i could try and dig up some old Militant articles if you are curious.

So if the Hamas has willingly lend their hands to help the PFLP as they wage revolutionary warfare against the Zionist-State, they should not accept it & go along with what they were doing before?

[Nosotros]

Hamas are against Zionism and the US but they are also a very right-wing, religous organisation that persecute women (force women to wear the veil and attack women who do not, execute prostitutes), homosexuals and union organizers. So basically they are an anti-working class movement and have very little in common with the left other than being enemies of the US and Israel.

[khad]

As for Afghanistan, i wasn't around at the time, but i am pretty sure we had a sensible approach. i could try and dig up some old Militant articles if you are curious.
I already know what those people had to say. Support for the "mass movement" (which didn't exist) but condemnation for the government, even as the revolutionary government was engaged in an existential struggle with the forces of imperialism. And don't give me that line about Soviet involvement, since the Afghan government was fighting the forces of western imperialism even before the PDPA came to power.

It's all the same shit.

At least the Sparts lived up to Trotsky's critical support of the USSR and its allies by sending someone to fight for the PDPA.

[red cat]

So there is no clerical caste in Palestine? I wouldn't be so sure. Yes the lack of a communist international has made many forget all the lessons of Marx and Lenin, abandoning their own movement in favour of, yes, bourgeois nationalism not having an independent political position, indeed refusing to have one in reference to some abstract right of the "people to define themselves" . And that socialism will "one day establish" itself seems utterly idealist. No as lenin correctly states the communists can under no circumstance sacrifice the worker's struggle in favour hiding behind, even giving a communist tinge to bourgeois nationalists. Is that not waht has been done in this thread?


When Hamas seemed to be the only option available, our line was to support it. However, now that we have got a Marxist group in Palestine, our line will be to uphold them.




PFLP's struggle for unity might very well be progressive, depending on their long-term objectives But again, the struggle for the working class is now, not in some distant future. This struggle is also inseparable from the struggle to defeat imperialism.

I believe that is what they are doing.

[khad]

Hamas are against Zionism and the US but they are also a very right-wing, religous organisation that persecute women (force women to wear the veil and attack women who do not, execute prostitutes), homosexuals and union organizers. So basically they are an anti-working class movement and have very little in common with the left other than being enemies of the US and Israel.
First off, there is no evidence for the execution of prostitutes. I've heard those things about the Taliban, but nothing of the sort from Hamas.

Second, what is this about the veil? Women in Gaza typically do not wear things that cover their faces. You're thinking of a headscarf, and calling it a veil is sensationalism. Moreover, Hamas never legislated any sort of headscarf code--there is social pressure, nevertheless.

It's not accurate to talk about Hamas as wholly reactionary or progressive in terms of gender politics, for while they are a socially conservative organization, their rule in Gaza has opened up many employment opportunities in the government that had typically not been available for women. The security services have actually had difficulty getting female recruits because many devout women reject that kind of work since it would involve working closely with men.

This is a good article which discusses the many contradictions of gender politics in occupied Palestine.

http://www.womensenews.org/story/the-world/060423/palestinians-debate-womens-future-under-hamas


Converting the Populace

At the Islamic University of Gaza, for instance, Salem said it is understood that unveiled women would not be hired to teach because they are not considered devout Muslims. Hamas might promote similar practices at other universities and schools. "They will not do that by force, but try to convert people to such positions," he said.

Today, personal status issues such as marriage and divorce are adjudicated under Sharia, or Islamic law, which some argue discriminates against women. For example, a Muslim man can marry more than one woman and when it comes to inheritance, a Muslim son usually receives double the share of his parents' wealth than that of a daughter. Hamas is expected to maintain such laws, Salem said.

On the other hand, Salem expects Hamas to ensure that Muslim women receive their rights to inheritance, which--even at half that of their brothers--are often denied entirely to Muslim women in villages and conservative areas such as Gaza, Hebron and the northern West Bank.

"What Hamas will be doing will be better than social practices that deprive them of their right of inheritance," Salem said.

Ewais, the Birzeit University student, believes Hamas might benefit women in very conservative Muslim families on several fronts.

Because it is an Islamist movement and is respected by many religious families, it could clarify women's many rights under Islam and encourage families to loosen unfair restrictions on women, such as forbidding daughters to choose their own husbands or hold a job.

"This is very wrong in our religion," said Ewais, who married a suitor of her choice earlier this month. "A woman has to choose her life."

[black magick hustla]

Like you Western "leftists" treated the Afghan communists with any more regard. I say it's completely delusional for any third world leftist to care about anything the Western left sect ghetto has to say.

nobody claimed "they care" at all.

[khad]

nobody claimed "they care" at all.
No one from the left sect ghetto on this site, at least. But...

OMG! A Stalinist!
http://www.pflp.ps/english/?q=video-students-organize-historical-presentation-pflp

[Crux]

May I just note that it's not an introduction on Hamas.

[danyboy27]

No one from the left sect ghetto on this site, at least. But...

OMG! A Stalinist!
http://www.pflp.ps/english/?q=video-students-organize-historical-presentation-pflp


may i ask you why you keep using this annoying, offensive term and who is supposed to be targeted by it?

[RadioRaheem84]

Look, some of our opponents have us pegged when they say that we'll support any anti-imperial movement. Lets not prove them right. Hamas is a reactionary force that while performing various charities in the Gaza Strip, promote some of the most racist anti-Semitic stuff out there. It should not be supported by any leftist, but I do agree that we should engage them in discussion as they are probably one of the only anti-imperial forces in the region. This would be to help them better organize their efforts, minus the anti-Semitic, pro-Islamic jargon.

We have to stop thinking that any movement that comes out of an extremely exploited land is somehow going to be leftist and anti-imperial. Sometimes religious zealots get a hold of the workers and promote a better world through strict religious adherence and a devotion to god.

The right wing anti-NWO movements in the US can in some way be described as anti-imperial in the sense that they do not wish to be swallowed up by globalization or wish their national soverignty to erode at the hands of transnationals and quasi-governmental organizations moderating trade like the WTO and the IMF. But they're rabidly anti-socialist, anti-democratic and pro-nationalist.

This is happening all over the world as ONCE AGAIN, due to global capitalism, the world is splitting up into two camps; nationalist and socialist. Religious too.

[Nosotros]

Well I have heard those things about Hamas and considerering that they are religous fundementalists and nationalists whose charter is based on anti-semitism- I have no problem believing these things. Anyone who is a real communist has nothing in common with them other than opposing US imperialism, so should we 'support' Al Qaeda aswell? Or maybe the National Socialist movement/ Christian Identity movement? They seem quite fond of action, bombs and guns- should we support them aswell? In any case all it seems we in the west can do to 'support' Hamas is march down a street making twats of ourselves shouting that we are all hamas etc It just makes the left look like bunch of pricks and it just confirms for people what they are being told by the right that Socialsim is for lunatics.

[khad]

Well I have heard those things about Hamas and considerering that they are religous fundementalists and nationalists whose charter is based on anti-semitism- I have no problem believing these things. Anyone who is a real communist has nothing in common with them other than opposing US imperialism, so should we 'support' Al Qaeda aswell? Or maybe the National Socialist movement/ Christian Identity movement? They seem quite fond of action, bombs and guns- should we support them aswell?
So in other words you believe everything the bourgeois press tells you.

See, this is a perfect example of the chauvinism of the Western left making it impossible to rationally discuss the political changes and tensions that a group like Hamas is bringing about. It is by no means clear cut whether Hamas is wholly reactionary or progressive, but there are avenues that are opening up for social action, even with a group like Hamas.

I'll post this again:

http://www.womensenews.org/story/the-world/060423/palestinians-debate-womens-future-under-hamas


Converting the Populace

At the Islamic University of Gaza, for instance, Salem said it is understood that unveiled women would not be hired to teach because they are not considered devout Muslims. Hamas might promote similar practices at other universities and schools. "They will not do that by force, but try to convert people to such positions," he said.

Today, personal status issues such as marriage and divorce are adjudicated under Sharia, or Islamic law, which some argue discriminates against women. For example, a Muslim man can marry more than one woman and when it comes to inheritance, a Muslim son usually receives double the share of his parents' wealth than that of a daughter. Hamas is expected to maintain such laws, Salem said.

On the other hand, Salem expects Hamas to ensure that Muslim women receive their rights to inheritance, which--even at half that of their brothers--are often denied entirely to Muslim women in villages and conservative areas such as Gaza, Hebron and the northern West Bank.

"What Hamas will be doing will be better than social practices that deprive them of their right of inheritance," Salem said.

Ewais, the Birzeit University student, believes Hamas might benefit women in very conservative Muslim families on several fronts.

Because it is an Islamist movement and is respected by many religious families, it could clarify women's many rights under Islam and encourage families to loosen unfair restrictions on women, such as forbidding daughters to choose their own husbands or hold a job.

"This is very wrong in our religion," said Ewais, who married a suitor of her choice earlier this month. "A woman has to choose her life."

[Nosotros]

I haven't got this from the bourgeois press but from the left. And what the fuck is so progressive about a group who are nationalist and staunchly religous? How does that benefit the working class?

[khad]

I haven't got this from the bourgeois press but from the left. And what the fuck is so progressive about a group who are nationalist and staunchly religous? How does that benefit the working class?
For one thing, they are actually hiring women as workers in the government in roles where women were traditionally not seen, and there is actually resistance among cultural conservatives due to the fact that these women have to work in close association with men.

You really ought to get over your ridiculous anti-theism. These groups are by no means the most reactionary forces in the region. The fact that Hamas is willing to enforce inheritance rights for women, as opposed to "tradition" in conservative parts of Gaza which disallow any sort of inheritance for women, makes them a force for progress in that particular place and for that issue of rights.

Completely dismissing Hamas is just a convenient ultra-left position to take, since it just avoids dealing with the real social tensions and developments that are occurring.

[Die Rote Fahne]

I thought you were a Luxemburgist? Her views on nationalism were a lot more sensible than that (http://www.worldsocialism.org/articles/luxemburg_and_the_national.php).


It's not national liberation or nationalism I am supporting.

But merely the living conditions of the working class.

I believe in a single state solution. A Bi-national state where Jews and Arabs can live side-by-side peacefully.

If, for the working class of Palestine, it is best to see a more moderate party rise to power, so be it. If it is best for the working class of Palestine that Hamas fight the occupation so be it. Obviously I would like to see a communist force heading this fight as it would be much better for the working class than Hamas, but that isn't the case in Palestine right now.

It's obvious, not from a nationalist point of view, but from someone who supports the working class, that the Israeli occupation is harming the working class.

"Rosa Luxemburg was resolutely opposed to this and wrote a series of articles in the international Social Democratic press arguing that workers should organise irrespective of nationality within the frontiers of the capitalist State in which they found themselves and should not seek to re-draw these frontiers, the struggle to achieve which would merely divert workers from the class struggle and Socialism."

The cases of Russian Poland and the occupied territories of Palestine are different. Correct me if I am wrong, but were the Polish people being forced from there homes for the Russian people to move in? Were the Polish being blockaded and treated as animals by the Russians? I don't think so. It is essential, for the organization of the workers in Palestine (and even in Israel) that a force such as Hamas fight against the occupation.

Israel would sooner kick the Palestinians out of their homes and out of what they want Israel to be, than to let them integrate and be Arabs living in a "Jewish-state".

Like I said before. It isn't a case of national liberation that I'm supporting. It's the quality of life of the working class in Palestine, Israel, and elsewhere. Would I like to see a unified uprising in both the territories and Israel against the bourgeois? Yes! Sadly the ability for the working class of Palestine to organize, even within itself, lies in the ending of the occupation.

[RadioRaheem84]

For one thing, they are actually hiring women as workers in the government in roles where women were traditionally not seen, and there is actually resistance among cultural conservatives due to the fact that these women have to work in close association with men.

You really ought to get over your ridiculous anti-theism. These groups are by no means the most reactionary forces in the region. The fact that Hamas is willing to enforce inheritance rights for women, as opposed to "tradition" in conservative parts of Gaza which disallow any sort of inheritance for women, makes them a force for progress in that particular place and for that issue of rights.

Completely dismissing Hamas is just a convenient ultra-left position to take, since it just avoids dealing with the real social tensions and developments that are occurring.


No, it's not. Their progressiveism in the Gaza Strip conforms with their specific beliefs on political Islam. It is their motive and intent that we are arguing about here. They're still rather reactionary and anti-Semitic too.

[danyboy27]

For one thing, they are actually hiring women as workers in the government in roles where women were traditionally not seen, and there is actually resistance among cultural conservatives due to the fact that these women have to work in close association with men.
.

well, that good news! one small step toward the right dirrection!



You really ought to get over your ridiculous anti-theism. These groups are by no means the most reactionary forces in the region. The fact that Hamas is willing to enforce inheritance rights for women, as opposed to "tradition" in conservative parts of Gaza which disallow any sort of inheritance for women, makes them a force for progress in that particular place and for that issue of rights.
.
I dont think its anti-theist to refuse to support a group that is waging a small holy war against the israelites. The problem is not their religion, the problem is waging war in the name of god, killing in the name of god and to die in the name of god.


Completely dismissing Hamas is just a convenient ultra-left position to take, since it just avoids dealing with the real social tensions and developments that are occurring.
can you develop on this? are you talking of the social tension inside palestine or the social tension between the palestinian and the israelites?

[Saorsa]

While suicide bombings are, in my opinion, a somewhat misguided tactic, I think a lot of people on this site need to get over the idea that there are any neutrals in a settler state like Israel. Every single Israeli, by virtue of the fact that they're not an Arab, is part of a priviliged caste that maintains its priviliged position through the exploitation and degradation of the Arabs. So unless Israelis choose to reject that priviliged status and commit themselves to the struggle against it, they are part of the occupation. And all parts of the occupation are legitimate targets.

[RadioRaheem84]

While suicide bombings are, in my opinion, a somewhat misguided tactic, I think a lot of people on this site need to get over the idea that there are any neutrals in a settler state like Israel. Every single Israeli, by virtue of the fact that they're not an Arab, is part of a priviliged caste that maintains its priviliged position through the exploitation and degradation of the Arabs. So unless Israelis choose to reject that priviliged status and commit themselves to the struggle against it, they are part of the occupation. And all parts of the occupation are legitimate targets.

Some Israelies are commited to an anti-caste struggle. I cannot believe that you just pegged every Israeli as a priviliged elitist. People on this board need to stop thinking that ever single anti-establishment movement is somehow stooped in righteousness. Some are reactionary as hell and demand for the most regressive forms of government.

[danyboy27]

While suicide bombings are, in my opinion, a somewhat misguided tactic, I think a lot of people on this site need to get over the idea that there are any neutrals in a settler state like Israel. Every single Israeli, by virtue of the fact that they're not an Arab, is part of a priviliged caste that maintains its priviliged position through the exploitation and degradation of the Arabs. So unless Israelis choose to reject that priviliged status and commit themselves to the struggle against it, they are part of the occupation. And all parts of the occupation are legitimate targets.

similar parallel could be made with ww2 you know, the german had a superior status inside of the reich, slav and other non jews where considered second class citizens.

just like the israeli, german civilian where used by the reich to control and colonize the new territories acquired at the east.

but at the end, nothing, nothing could justify all the attrocities commited by the allies and the red army toward the german civilian population, no matter how indoctrinated some of those civilians where.

there is no double standard possible, deliberately attacking a civilian population for political purpose is inhumane.

[Saorsa]

It's not about their individual attitudes. It's about their position in society, in the settler state they're a part of. I'm not going to condemn violence of the oppressed against their oppressors.

[Saorsa]

similar parallel could be made with ww2 you know, the german had a superior status inside of the reich, slav and other non jews where considered second class citizens.

And if Jewish resistance fighters had, say, bombed a cafe full of German police and german civilians, would you condemn it?

[RadioRaheem84]

And if Jewish resistance fighters had, say, bombed a cafe full of German police and german civilians, would you condemn it?

There is a difference between secular resistance fighters in WWII that wanted freedom from fascism and religious zealots that want secular social democratic occupiers out to establish an Islamic State.

[Saorsa]

secular social democratic occupiers

You don't know what the fuck you're talking about.

[RadioRaheem84]

You don't know what the fuck you're talking about.

Look I know that Israel is generally a racist apartheid like country with expansionist ambitions and has a far right wing Zionist section on the population that seeks and sometimes gains power, but it's a social democratic country in the economic sense. There is a fight within Israel that favors Palestinian rights too.

So what the fuck are you talking about when describing the situation in the Gaza Strip? Seriously, you piss me off with black and white scenerio of the situation.

[Saorsa]

A 'social democratic, secular' occupier? Are you serious?

[RadioRaheem84]

Then how would you describe Israel? Let me know. I just think you're doing a disservice to the many anti-zionist and anti-racist groups in Israel that get arrested, harrased, and beaten by cops and IDF forces for their views. The Israeli Communist Party for one was at the forefront of protesting againt Jewish settlements. A recognized party with 3 seats in the Knesset shared jointly with Hadash.

There is a struggle within Israel. Overall it's a social democratic country. The expansionist ambitions of the ruling class doesn't diminish the work done by real leftists in the State.

[bricolage]

Israel is both social democratic and secular... however that doesn't stop it being a racist and oppressive settler state hellbent on ethnic cleansing and systematic exclusion.

The Enlightenment was a lie :)

[RadioRaheem84]

Israel is both social democratic and secular... however that doesn't stop it being a racist and oppressive settler state hellbent on ethnic cleansing and systematic exclusion.

The Enlightenment was a lie :)


Absolutley.

[danyboy27]

And if Jewish resistance fighters had, say, bombed a cafe full of German police and german civilians, would you condemn it?

if the attack would have deliberately killed civilian, yes.

there is a difference between accidental collateral damages and deliberate killing of civilians.

no matter how wrong some people could be, if they dont pose an armed threat then its useless to attack them.

deliberate attack on jewish settler wont solve the problem anyway, those guy are religious coo coo, the more you attack them, the more they feel that their presense is legitimized, you cant break them, just like israel cant break Hamas coo coo by bombing them, the more israel bomb the palestinian radicals, the more they feel legitimized to attack the settler, and this infernal wheel wont stop until israel society become aware of the monstreous things they are doing to the palestinian population. To do be able to do that, someone must break that israeli self-victimisation process, beccause a victim will ALWAYS feel that its legitimate to use the most horrible methods in order to allow its own self-preservation. Once its done, the same process should be applied to the the palestinian.

i know all this shit sound patronizing, and at the end its up both the israeli and palestinian to work this out, but somehow the one that is entitled to make the first step in that story is the people of israel, and seriously, dropping rocket made of car part on israeli settlements is definitively not verry helpful.

[Crux]

While suicide bombings are, in my opinion, a somewhat misguided tactic, I think a lot of people on this site need to get over the idea that there are any neutrals in a settler state like Israel. Every single Israeli, by virtue of the fact that they're not an Arab, is part of a priviliged caste that maintains its priviliged position through the exploitation and degradation of the Arabs. So unless Israelis choose to reject that priviliged status and commit themselves to the struggle against it, they are part of the occupation. And all parts of the occupation are legitimate targets.
This question might sound facetious but, there is no exploited class in Israel? There is no jewish working class in israel? The "Us or Them" mentality is what benefits the occupiers.

[Nosotros]

For one thing, they are actually hiring women as workers in the government in roles where women were traditionally not seen, and there is actually resistance among cultural conservatives due to the fact that these women have to work in close association with men.

You really ought to get over your ridiculous anti-theism. These groups are by no means the most reactionary forces in the region. The fact that Hamas is willing to enforce inheritance rights for women, as opposed to "tradition" in conservative parts of Gaza which disallow any sort of inheritance for women, makes them a force for progress in that particular place and for that issue of rights.

Completely dismissing Hamas is just a convenient ultra-left position to take, since it just avoids dealing with the real social tensions and developments that are occurring.I'm not an anti-theist, I am an Atheist. I'm just not convinced by your arguments, you may aswell be pro Al Qaeda or pro Gaddafi. Infact you may aswell be pro Israel because they are nationalist, religous fanatics aswell. What have Hamas achieved? All they've gained is Gaza and Gaza is a cesspit and it's not just the fault of the Zionists. And I've noticed you've avoided touching on the Hamas charter, which may aswell have been written by a Nazi. Anyway, clearly we disagree.

[Die Rote Fahne]

I'm not an anti-theist, I am an Atheist. I'm just not convinced by your arguments, you may aswell be pro Al Qaeda or pro Gaddafi. Infact you may aswell be pro Israel because they are nationalist, religous fanatics aswell. What have Hamas achieved? All they've gained is Gaza and Gaza is a cesspit and it's not just the fault of the Zionists. And I've noticed you've avoided touching on the Hamas charter, which may aswell have been written by a Nazi. Anyway, clearly we disagree.

bAhoLRfBNOQ

SqPbQGU2tms

Note in the second video how Galloway discusses the Hamas Charter and the Arab Peace Treaty.

Please educate yourself in the current state of Hamas and what they stand for, not a charter which is 26 years old.

[[email protected]]

hamas is just a large group of people which is attracting more and more supporters each day not because of any religious or economic reason, but just because they have a belief that everyone admires, which is """ fighting israel and America is the only way for freedom""" and they don't believe in peace just fighting and revolution .... :thumbup1: