View Full Version : Nationalism is not an obstacle but a fuel for our work as revolutionaries!
Tyrlop
1st March 2010, 20:11
Discuz...
The Essence Of Flame Is The Essence Of Change
1st March 2010, 20:16
uhm...fail?
The Essence Of Flame Is The Essence Of Change
1st March 2010, 20:25
Do you mean that nationalism is gonna push more people towards progressive/communist ideas due to polarisation dichotomy?Sorry but this is a murderous mistake to make and WW2 has shown that.The CPG and some other communists had the same opinion but the problem is that the average citizen does not understand that fascism is a reactionary ideology that in the end serves the rich even more but instead views it as a truly revolutionary current that aims to fix the impurity of the system.In short, apolitical people do not view neo-nazism as a tentacle of the state but rather as an autonomous entity.We should focus our attention to it properly and learn from history by crushing their actions before they rise in popularity.I'm not going to quote again Hitler and Bertolt Brecht again, you have heard of snake eggs and apathy before:rolleyes:
Actually, Danish nationalism is going to liberate the whole world.
DecDoom
1st March 2010, 21:40
I once saw the YouTube page of a Dutch nationalist that demanded that the US recognize its illegitimacy and hand over all its assets to the Dutch government. His reasoning was that since New York was originally New Amsterdam, by extent the entire Continental US was stolen Dutch property.
Nolan
2nd March 2010, 01:03
I once saw the YouTube page of a Dutch nationalist that demanded that the US recognize its illegitimacy and hand over all its assets to the Dutch government. His reasoning was that since New York was originally New Amsterdam, by extent the entire Continental US was stolen Dutch property.
Oh fuck I have to see this. Please find the channel.
DecDoom
2nd March 2010, 02:05
Oh fuck I have to see this. Please find the channel.
Sorry, it was a while ago and I can't remember the guy's name. :(
Tablo
2nd March 2010, 06:30
Nationalism is one of the greatest threats to Revolution. It divides the working class and makes us fight each other instead of the ruling class.
Honestly I think this is a troll thread.
Nationalism can be cultivated to respect other nationalisms. A strong integrity of language and culture can form the basis for a cross/inter/pan/trans-nationalism of equals. The fact that I am speaking in the national tongue of England for communism - negates that nationalism is against communism. Because the national language is the key pillar of any nation. I am materially engaging in English nationalism by speaking the language of the English.
What I think we communists and other progressives are really against is 'super-patriotism'; the perverse fusing of a hostile attitude or gross unconcern towards peoples of other nationalities with ones national identity. These reactionary fuckers can twist everything to their purpose to divide and conquer. We must seek to counter them by having nationalism play a progressive or at least a benign role.
Nationalism can be cultivated to respect other nationalisms. A strong integrity of language and culture can form the basis for a cross/inter/pan/trans-nationalism of equals. The fact that I am speaking in the national tongue of England for communism - negates that nationalism is against communism. Because the national language is the key pillar of any nation. I am materially engaging in English nationalism by speaking the language of the English.
What I think we communists and other progressives are really against is 'super-patriotism'; the perverse fusing of a hostile attitude or gross unconcern towards peoples of other nationalities with ones national identity. These reactionary fuckers can twist everything to their purpose to divide and conquer. We must seek to counter them by having nationalism play a progressive or at least a benign role.
No, you're speaking English because that's the language you learnt in school and from your parents.
whore
3rd March 2010, 11:58
I once saw the YouTube page of a Dutch nationalist that demanded that the US recognize its illegitimacy and hand over all its assets to the Dutch government. His reasoning was that since New York was originally New Amsterdam, by extent the entire Continental US was stolen Dutch property.
makes as much sense as saying that the falklands should be argentinian.
No, you're speaking English because that's the language you learnt in school and from your parents.
I suspect you have a wrong impression, I'm not a native speaker of English. I'm speaking English because two consecutive imperialist superpowers have made the English national language into a widely spoken a world language. English nationalism is so integral to everyone and normalized on this board that nobody notices how pervasive it is. It's like with a fish that lives it's entire life in the ocean dose not notice the water since it so pervasive. We are writing in English, the national language of the English nation - and national tongues are the fundamental core of nationalism.
^You could be an Olympic athlete with that kind of logical contortionism. That someone speaks English for reasons of practicality says nothing at all about any adherence on their behalf to English nationalism.
Here's one for you: I speak Americanized Yiddish a lot of the time when I'm with my family; what kind of nationalist does that make me?
Good luck with that one.
It says everything. Nationalism is practical because it is pervasive. It is not just a subjective choice like you pick groceries or first and foremost about flag waving, or wild obedience to the US or UK state. You are materially engaging in nationalism if you speak a national language.
If you want to jump straight into being non-nationalist you should start to advocate for or speak a nation neutral made up language, something like Esperanto.
Here's one for you: I speak Americanized Yiddish a lot of the time when I'm with my family; what kind of nationalist does that make me?
Good luck with that one.
Multinationalist.
It says everything. Nationalism is practical because it is pervasive. It is not just a subjective choice like you pick groceries or first and foremost about flag waving, or wild obedience to the US or UK state. You are materially engaging in nationalism if you speak a national language.
If you want to jump straight into being non-nationalist you should start to speak or advocate for a nation neutral made up language, something like Esperanto.
Multinationalist.
That's utterly ridiculous, you could use the same logic to say one supports capitalism by working for a wage in the capitalist system.. and you wouldn't say that would you?
Honggweilo
3rd March 2010, 20:39
inb4 third positionism
jaycm610
3rd March 2010, 20:49
Nationalism can be cultivated to respect other nationalisms. A strong integrity of language and culture can form the basis for a cross/inter/pan/trans-nationalism of equals. The fact that I am speaking in the national tongue of England for communism - negates that nationalism is against communism. Because the national language is the key pillar of any nation. I am materially engaging in English nationalism by speaking the language of the English.
What I think we communists and other progressives are really against is 'super-patriotism'; the perverse fusing of a hostile attitude or gross unconcern towards peoples of other nationalities with ones national identity. These reactionary fuckers can twist everything to their purpose to divide and conquer. We must seek to counter them by having nationalism play a progressive or at least a benign role.
I think what he said about pannationalism and transnationalism is very useful and could be revolutionary. Consider this: Nationalism has been a powerful force throughout history. It has started wars and forged nations. Utilizing it in a communist left wing way, it can be an ally, a very powerful one because it is so widespread. The who english language thing is really irrelevant. To pick it out is to miss the forest for one tree.
That's utterly ridiculous, you could use the same logic to say one supports capitalism by working for a wage in the capitalist system.. and you wouldn't say that would you?
No, not ridiculous at all. And actually I would. In a material sense one does indeed support capitalism if one works for a wage in the capitalist system. Support can take many forms, both subjective and objective/material. One lets surplus value accrue to the capitalist by going along with things as they are. Subjectively one might yearn for an alternative but until one brakes with the system materially one is still a cog in the capitalist machine.
One must see problems for what they are before one is to fix them.
No, not ridiculous at all. In a material sense one does indeed support capitalism if one work for a wage in the capitalist system. One lets surplus value accrue to the capitalist by going along with things as they are. Subjectively one might yearn for an alternative but until one brakes with the system materially one is still a cog in the capitalist machine.
One must see problems for what they are before one is to fix them.
What I said is based on your logic here:
If you want to jump straight into being non-nationalist you should start to speak or advocate for a nation neutral made up language, something like Esperanto.
The equivalent of that when it comes to working, is to advocate 'dropping out of capitalism' and joining random squat communes which we know doesn't work. Speaking Esperanto also doesn't work because it doesn't let you communicate with the majority of the world working-class.
If it's nationalist to simply speak a language that is widely spoken by the world working-class - and especially thanks to being taught it during your upbringing, then you're very much wrong. There are a lot of people who learn lots of different languages that they "don't need", are they nationalist as well? Does it make you a Spanish nationalist if you attempt to learn Spanish and the same with other languages, simply to communicate with more people?
See, your position just makes no sense, because I am trying to learn Spanish and Turkish that would make me a Spanish and Turkish nationalist even though my exact aim is to communicate with more of the world working-class not less, so it makes no sense really.
What I said is based on your logic here:
The equivalent of that when it comes to working, is to advocate 'dropping out of capitalism' and joining random squat communes which we know doesn't work. Speaking Esperanto also doesn't work because it doesn't let you communicate with the majority of the world working-class.
No no no no, you are mistaken. The brake with capitalism as well a brake with a nation particular language has many stages where short- medium- and long term goals come into play. I didn't elaborate one scale nor tactic regarding language change. I am not speaking for social escapism. The brake with national languages has to be a collective widespread endeavor. Same as with a systems change between capitalism and communism.
If it's nationalist to simply speak a language that is widely spoken by the world working-class - and especially thanks to being taught it during your upbringing, then you're very much wrong. There are a lot of people who learn lots of different languages that they "don't need", are they nationalist as well? Does it make you a Spanish nationalist if you attempt to learn Spanish and the same with other languages, simply to communicate with more people?
Yes, or at least partially, it does since there are nations and we speak with their national tongues. Bloodline, looks, loyalty toward the a state, citizenship, duration of residence are some additional requirements that are sometimes set up for one to be considered a full and proper national. But that is all secondary fluff. The core measure is the language. If one is propagating and supporting the spread of a particular national language, f.ex. by learning it oneself, one is aiding that particular nationalism at its core and thus one is a nationalist. One is taking part in nation building. But that does not necessarily entail super-patriotism as I have previously written.
See, your position just makes no sense, because I am trying to learn Spanish and Turkish that would make me a Spanish and Turkish nationalist even though my exact aim is to communicate with more of the world working-class not less, so it makes no sense really.
I'm not trying to annoy you or anything but my classification is the most accurate one. What you probably understand as Turkish/Spanish nationalists are rabbit flag-waving super-patriots. I however see Turkish and Spanish nationalist those who speak or propagate the language.
I suspect you have a wrong impression, I'm not a native speaker of English. I'm speaking English because two consecutive imperialist superpowers have made the English national language into a widely spoken a world language. English nationalism is so integral to everyone and normalized on this board that nobody notices how pervasive it is. It's like with a fish that lives it's entire life in the ocean dose not notice the water since it so pervasive. We are writing in English, the national language of the English nation - and national tongues are the fundamental core of nationalism.
Ah, so by speaking English you are not necessarily showing any personal English nationalist undertones but you are increasing the influence of the English language across the world.
Ah, so by speaking English you are not necessarily showing any personal English nationalist undertones but you are increasing the influence of the English language across the world.
You are correct. I am actually a transnationalist or a world nationalist (wanting the entire human kind constitute on nation) subjectively - but I recognize that I am not doing anything material to bring that about since there first isn't any basis built for that - the primary being a common nation neutral world language. Therefore I am materially another kind of nationalist for the time being since I live in, operate and propagate existing national languages such as English, Danish, Icelandic. And what one wants to be does not matter compared to what one is. Just as one has not become trained pilot just by wanting to be a trained pilot, but only becomes so after one has completed ones study and training.
Patchd
5th March 2010, 01:35
revleft is srz bizness
You are correct. I am actually a transnationalist or a world nationalist (wanting the entire human kind constitute on nation) subjectively - but I recognize that I am not doing anything material to bring that about since there first isn't any basis built for that - the primary being a common nation neutral world language. Therefore I am materially another kind of nationalist for the time being since I live in, operate and propagate existing national languages such as English, Danish, Icelandic. And what one wants to be does not matter compared to what one is. Just as one has not become trained pilot just by wanting to be a trained pilot, but only becomes so after one has completed ones study and training.
Hmm I know how to end nationalism... don't speak :lol:
And now to something completely different;
http://img186.imageshack.us/img186/3633/1266889134698.jpg
Near the end of the thread, it was actually quite serious for chit-chat.
Rusty Shackleford
9th March 2010, 00:14
things like national liberation are ok to an extent. many national liberation movements are socialist. at least that i know of.
bcbm
9th March 2010, 04:37
That's utterly ridiculous, you could use the same logic to say one supports capitalism by working for a wage in the capitalist system.. and you wouldn't say that would you?
the practical everyday activity of wage-workers reproduces wage labor and capital
Raúl Duke
14th March 2010, 01:27
things like national liberation are ok to an extent. many national liberation movements are socialist. at least that i know of.
In some nations, particularly those which are still colonies, socialism is tied with "nationalism" or more specifically the concept of "national liberation" (well where I'm from they don't use those words per se, they use more the word independence and derivations of that word in Spanish). In Puerto Rico, I think every socialist movement/socialist there supports that Puerto Rico becomes independent.
Actually, what I can see, the independence movement is usually a "left" (broadly speaking) movement. From the European-style "social or socialist democratic" PIP party to the mostly M-L (but no affiliation with any specific figurehead, and those members who do are usually simple Leninists, Trotskyists, or maybe a few Maoists; I doubt anyone on the island supports Stalin) MST.
Outside the realm of colonies or oppressed nations/minorities, I don't see any use of any form of nationalism.
Wanted Man
16th March 2010, 22:58
I once saw the YouTube page of a Dutch nationalist that demanded that the US recognize its illegitimacy and hand over all its assets to the Dutch government. His reasoning was that since New York was originally New Amsterdam, by extent the entire Continental US was stolen Dutch property.
Can't find any fault with that.
Seriously though, Dutch nationalism is pretty ridiculous, but I've never heard of this variety before.
Honggweilo
17th March 2010, 07:32
I once saw the YouTube page of a Dutch nationalist that demanded that the US recognize its illegitimacy and hand over all its assets to the Dutch government. His reasoning was that since New York was originally New Amsterdam, by extent the entire Continental US was stolen Dutch property.
Was this the same guy who belived that with dutch rule every starbuck would be a real "coffeeshop"?
DecDoom
17th March 2010, 15:17
Was this the same guy who belived that with dutch rule every starbuck would be a real "coffeeshop"?
It could be, that sounds familiar.
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