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View Full Version : The Labor Theory of Value as Presciptive



Dermezel
1st March 2010, 12:36
I have noticed a rather disturbing trend among Marxist circles, which makes the movement appear overly idealistic in general, detracts from a scientific understanding, leads to bizarre policies/conclusions and while not as callous and morally bankrupt as social Darwinism is very similar in form of fallacy:

The equation of Marx's labor theory of value with prescription, as opposed to recognizing it as a mere scientific description.

Too often I see socialists, for lack of a better word, "glorifying" hard work. As if the purpose of socialism is to make people work harder. As if, under a socialist system, we are really going to put a carpenter ahead of Albert Einstein with respect to social influence, or some idiot carpenter ahead of a sociological genius simply due to how many hours he or she works. This is not to say we will not need a proletariat democracy, but to suggest influence and social power literally be equated to how many hours a person works is just absurd. As if we are telling the proletariat- you will work HARDER under socialism.

The truth of the matter is Marx's labor theory of value scientifically describes how capitalism IS, not how it OUGHT to be. In fact, though Marx never says, one can easily come to the conclusion that having labor as a source of value represents an economic deformity. It implies sick people have to work harder for medicine, or anyone that can't work as hard as a normal healthy adult is to be relegated to being a second class citizen. In effect, capitalism does do this, among the proletariat, whereby "hard workers" are given a higher standard of living and more social esteem then anyone proletariat who is disabled due to physical or psychological conditions.

Marx did not mean this.

Recall in Capital there are two sources of value: use-value, based on needs (physical and psychological) and exchange-value based on labor.

A rationally planned economy is based on use value, or utility, or utilitarian calculus (whatever you wish to call it. ) In such a society it will not matter how much you work, but more so, how much you need. Sick people will thus not be required to work harder for their medicine.

Hence the phrase "from each according to their ability, to each according to their need." Even the previous transitional society will be based more on utility of merit then merely length or duration of work. In fact Marx himself when he stated:"to each according to their contribution" must be revised. That statement was made before social science figured out that often times workers will work for status, not just raw monetary resources. Hence you can still maintain a high level of productivity in an economically egalitarian environment in all probability. Likewise, I doubt he was saying to literally follow this formula in an absolute sense with respect to children and the disabled, and if he did the thought should be dismissed. And last, Marx noted that this was only until automation evolved sufficiently to remove the need for labor as was needed back in the 19th century- automation has thus far advanced rapidly, perhaps to that point if organized correctly.

A Marxist economy is thus practical and utilitarian. It is not some idealistic economy which places a deontological value on labor regardless of consequences.

To pretend otherwise is to misread Marx, promote an irrational attitude, make Marxism look deontological and hence unscientific to others, and in many respects do the opposite of what Marx is proposing.

Again, just like Darwin was not proposing we implement Natural Selection as policy, Marx is not proposing that we actually implement the labor theory of value. The proposition is to make an economy based on utility.

Dermezel
1st March 2010, 13:07
Also I want to note that while hard work is admirable, that is, again not how we determine matters like rights, social influence, or decision making or economic positions in a socialist or even revolutionary state.

If Bill works really hard running hundreds of laps a day, while Mark is really lazy, but is a genius when it comes to military tactics and performs above everyone else in the simulator- I am putting Mark in charge of the war effort. I may admire Bill more, but ultimately if my goal is to get results I go along with who is the most able.

With respect to rights, that is determined by morality and social consensus. That is not determined by one's work ethic, unless there is a dire need for such. For example, I may give a genius class general extra authority in emergency situations, but on average, I do not think a person should be given more rights or is more entitled to happiness just because they are able to work harder. I might not even assign them to key positions just because they work hard (one also has to consider factors like loyalty, intelligence, responsibility, communication skills and in various service jobs, even attractiveness ) .

ZeroNowhere
3rd March 2010, 09:20
Recall in Capital there are two sources of value: use-value, based on needs (physical and psychological) and exchange-value based on labor.
"Second: only a vir obscurus who has not understood a word of Capital can conclude: Because Marx in a note in the first edition of Capital rejects all the German professorial twaddle about “use-value” in general, and refers readers who want to know something about real use-values to “manuals dealing with merchandise”—for this reason use-value plays no part in his work. Naturally it does not play the part of its opposite, of “value,” which has nothing in common with it, except that “value” occurs in the term “use-value.” He might just as well have said that “exchange-value” is discarded by me because it is only the form of appearance of value, and not “value” itself, since for me the “value” of a commodity is neither its use-value nor its exchange value."

Though yeah, the fact that it's called 'value' does tend to put people off what it actually means, as it isn't really equivalent to how the word 'value' is generally used in, for example, 'I value this thing'. Still, at least that way you can figure out who has actually read Marx. Though it seems that non-Marxists make the mistake more often, I believe that 'The Sun' had once included something on how Marx had apparently said in the third volume of Capital (he didn't) that the theory of value was actually only meant to apply to an ideal society or some such. While some Proudhonists and Ricardians did use the theory of value normatively, Marx was quite fast to call Proudhon out on that.

As for the rest of your post, I disagree with some parts of it on 'from each... to each...', but that's not really the subject of the thread, so I won't go into that.

Dermezel
3rd March 2010, 17:42
As for the rest of your post, I disagree with some parts of it on 'from each... to each...', but that's not really the subject of the thread, so I won't go into that.

Go off on it. Please.

Socialism is a very serious issue. As a political movement we are playing for keeps and the stakes are high. We need to make sure our ideas rest on a proper theoretical foundation on not just whimsical opinions.