USAs Communist Partys

[Sinred]

Hey comrades
I am 24 years old Swedish marxist-leninist about to move to Washington, USA (ironic, i know). Anyhow, ive been an active communist since 16 years old and not planning on ending that just because of relocation. So i was wondering about which communist groups in USA i will join, specifically:
* Freedom Road (either one)
* World Workers Party
* Party for Socialism and Liberation

Can someone please tell me further what distinguishes these groups from each other both in size, theory, organization and types of members.
I know the Party for Socialism & Liberation is a split from World Workers party, but why did the split occur in the first place?

What are your wiews and experience of these groups?

[JAH23]

If you're marxist leninist, join the PSL.

[Sinred]

If you're marxist leninist, join the PSL.

Ok. Can u motivate it just a little more? Why are they the logical choise?

[The Vegan Marxist]

Ok. Can u motivate it just a little more? Why are they the logical choise?

Mainly because they've brought more class awareness towards workers rights, along with pushing socialism to each state that it visits. Especially if you were to compare this group with other groups such as the CPUSA, since that group has this one-sided view towards democrats & Obama being on their side. So, the PSL would be your best choice over all.

[Sinred]

Mainly because they've brought more class awareness towards workers rights, along with pushing socialism to each state that it visits. Especially if you were to compare this group with other groups such as the CPUSA, since that group has this one-sided view towards democrats & Obama being on their side. So, the PSL would be your best choice over all.

Ok thanx, that sounds pretty good. Class awareness is a very important question for me, even for being a communist. CPUSA is out of the question for the reasons you just mentioned.
What distinguish PSL from WWP?

[The Vegan Marxist]

Ok thanx, that sounds pretty good. Class awareness is a very important question for me, even for being a communist. CPUSA is out of the question for the reasons you just mentioned.
What distinguish PSL from WWP?

I don't really know much about the split between the PSL & WWP. Though, one of the main things that the PSL has brought that I feel the WWP hasn't is, not the class awareness itself, but to the people they're delivering it to. The PSL has brought such awareness, as a vast majority, to new-coming youth. The PSL has a great representation towards youth cadre members of the movement, & has been dedicated in bringing new generations in & educating them towards such class awareness.

[Sinred]

I don't really know much about the split between the PSL & WWP. Though, one of the main things that the PSL has brought that I feel the WWP hasn't is, not the class awareness itself, but to the people they're delivering it to. The PSL has brought such awareness, as a vast majority, to new-coming youth. The PSL has a great representation towards youth cadre members of the movement, & has been dedicated in bringing new generations in & educating them towards such class awareness.


So far you mentioned the main things i look for in a ML-party :tt1:
Do they got a branch in DC-area or virginia?
What do you know about freedom road?

[The Vegan Marxist]

So far you mentioned the main things i look for in a ML-party :tt1:
Do they got a branch in DC-area or virginia?
What do you know about freedom road?

Freedom Road is a nice organization, but I'd still choose PSL over them, again, because of the vast class awareness that they've brought to the youth & many others.

And yeah, they've got a branch in D.C.: http://www.pslweb.org/site/PageServer?pagename=WashingtonDC

[cb9's_unity]

While i'm not a Marxist-Leninist I suggest the PSL for anybody who is an M-L and wants to join an explicitly M-L party. I have disagreements with leninist party organization, but they seem to be a genuinely revolutionary party.

Just make sure to stay the fuck away from the reformist/social-democratic CP-USA.

[Chimurenga.]

I'm also looking into the PSL. I like its strong affiliation with ANSWER (Act Now To Stop War and End Racism). The only thing that sucks is the nearest office is in DC, seven hours away.

[The Vegan Marxist]

I'm also looking into the PSL. I like its strong affiliation with ANSWER (Act Now To Stop War and End Racism). The only thing that sucks is the nearest office is in DC, seven hours away.

Still better than nothing, Comrade. Especially with them not being as mainstream as such organizations like the CPUSA or the DSA-USA.

[Joe_Germinal]

What distinguish PSL from WWP?

As far as I can tell, nobody outside these organizations knows exactly why they split; neither group has published material explicating the circumstances behind the split. The best I've been able to get from PSL members is that the split was to do with the internal political practice of the WWP which PSL comrades accuse of being contrary to democratic centralism.

From what I can tell living in the northeastern US, the main difference between the two is that the PSL is an intellectually dynamic and rapidly growing organization with growing links to the workers movement and other mass struggles, while the WWP seems not to exist outside of small pockets in the biggest cities. Every east-coast WWP member I've ever met is from New York City.


What do you know about freedom road?

Freedom Road split in the early 2000s between a majority group publishing the Freedom Road newspaper, and the minority anti-revisionist group publishing the Fight Back newspaper. The former group has more or less abandoned Marxism-Leninism. The latter group is extremely strong on theory and history (stronger in my opinion than the PSL or WWP); however, they are painfully small, and basically non-existent where I am on the east coast.

In conclusion, Freedom Road (Freedom Road) has become revisionist, while the PSL, WWP, and Freedom Road (Fight Back) are very close ideologically, (all basically upholding Marxism-Leninism). Most new M-Ls in America are joining the PSL because unlike the other two organizations, they seem to have direction and momentum.

[Crux]

Hey comrades
I am 24 years old Swedish marxist-leninist about to move to Washington, USA (ironic, i know). Anyhow, ive been an active communist since 16 years old and not planning on ending that just because of relocation. So i was wondering about which communist groups in USA i will join, specifically:
* Freedom Road (either one)
* World Workers Party
* Party for Socialism and Liberation

Can someone please tell me further what distinguishes these groups from each other both in size, theory, organization and types of members.
I know the Party for Socialism & Liberation is a split from World Workers party, but why did the split occur in the first place?

What are your wiews and experience of these groups?
Well, om du känner för att byta sida finns ju alltid: http://www.socialistalternative.org/about/ ;)

[Sinred]

Thnx everybody, youve been a great help. PLS it is.

Mayakovsky: sorry, but not in a million years ;)

[ReVoLuTiOnArY-BrOtHeR]

Hey comrades
I am 24 years old Swedish marxist-leninist about to move to Washington, USA (ironic, i know). Anyhow, ive been an active communist since 16 years old and not planning on ending that just because of relocation. So i was wondering about which communist groups in USA i will join, specifically:
* Freedom Road (either one)
* World Workers Party
* Party for Socialism and Liberation

Can someone please tell me further what distinguishes these groups from each other both in size, theory, organization and types of members.
I know the Party for Socialism & Liberation is a split from World Workers party, but why did the split occur in the first place?

What are your wiews and experience of these groups?

Comrade, don't limit yourself to a few political parties. You should do research on a lot more of them for example the RCP Revolutionary Communist Party USA, etc. Don't just research a few.

[Sinred]

I have looked into both Revolutionary Communist Party and Progressive Labour Party. This is what i got so far about them.

PLP
Pros: cool songs, militant rethoric, have the same 60-70:s history as my swedish party and its always fun to beat up nazis.
Cons: sectarian and have a insane "anarcholeninist" ideology.

RCP
Pros: Bob Avakian seems like a awesome guy, nice books, cool publishing and (from what ive sen) very dedicated members.
Cons: die hard maoist, kinda sectarian and very small.


But thats just what i got out of internet. I bet you know more about them (if u live in US or have contact with any of these groups) than i know. And in that case i would like you to tell me more about them and the many more pros (or cons). :)

[Dimentio]

Marxism-leninism isn't my juice, but given your preferences I would advice you to speak with the user here who is otherwise known as Ismail. He's a member of an anti-revisionist hoxhaist party named "The American Party of Labour". Its a fairly small group, but it might be interesting for you.

[manic expression]

Tja, läget? I've worked with some DC members of the PSL, and I can highly recommend contacting the DC branch. The PSL is exceptionally active, energetic and deeply involved in a variety of struggles, and I'm sure you'll find this in the work of the DC PSL.

If you get to DC in the next few weeks, make sure to take part in the ANSWER march against imperialism on March 20, it's shaping up to be a very important action for the revolutionary struggle in the US:

http://answer.pephost.org/site/PageServer?pagename=ANS_homepage
http://www.pslweb.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=13689&news_iv_ctrl=1261

Också, jag studerar nu på sverige denna termin...:thumbup1:

[RED DAVE]

Let me try a criterior that I hope people will agree with: involvement with the working class. This means, primarily, involvement in the labor movement, organizing the unorganized, and the like. Any left wing organization, no matter what tendency, that isn't so focused, isn't worth jack shit.

ETA: If you see that the majority of their work consists of work in identity politics, community politics, antiwar work, as opposed to direct work inside of or with the working class as the working class, this is not a good sign.

RED DAVE

[Sinred]

Let me try a criterior that I hope people will agree with: involvement with the working class. This means, primarily, involvement in the labor movement, organizing the unorganized, and the like. Any left wing organization, no matter what tendency, that isn't so focused, isn't worth jack shit.

ETA: If you see that the majority of their work consists of work in identity politics, community politics, antiwar work, as opposed to direct work inside of or with the working class as the working class, this is not a good sign.

RED DAVE


Agree. Unfortunately this isnt obvious to all left wing movements. Im thinking mainly about anarchists (not wooblies thou), animal liberation groups, ultrafeminists and surely some communist groups.

[The Idler]

List of Left-wing Parties in the US (http://eng.anarchopedia.org/List_of_Left-Wing_Parties_in_the_United_States)

[Kassad]

I just want to start off and say thanks to all those who have come out in support of the Party for Socialism and Liberation. To those who mentioned joining or want to join, please send me a private message and we can talk about it. As a member for almost a year now, I can say that there is no better choice than joining the party.

A lot of people are asking about the split between the PSL and Workers World Party. The split, which took place in 2004, has brought about a lot of discussion and with that comes false accusations. I've heard things ranging from disputes about Lenin and self-determination to about whether a party leader should be white or black. When asked, all PSL members will respond the same general way: it was an issue of democratic centralism. Those who accuse those who split as "sectarian" are very misled. Members of the PSL are former members and leaders of WWP, so claims that it was a power struggle are moot. We greatly respect members of WWP, especially their upholding of the ideological views of the party's founder, Sam Marcy, but we think that due to liberal turns in the party, they are unable to lead the Marxist movement in the United States. If you have further questions, again, please contact me.

To those who said that they want to join but the nearest branch is far away, I live in Ohio. The nearest branch to me is 7 hours to Chicago or 7 to Washington, yet I manage to still receive party information, materials (newspapers, fliers etc.) and still remain in contact with other comrades. I've had party members come to aid me with events and demonstrations on a few occasions. We are very resourceful and even if you are far from a branch, you can still organize.

To the original poster, I'm glad you want to join and the branch in Washington DC is very active. As other people have said before me, we are the most active party out there and we are growing very quickly. I hope you'll see what we're about and join in the future.

[JAH23]

Ok. Can u motivate it just a little more? Why are they the logical choise?

From what I know, the PSL is an extremely motivated and tight knit organization that is truly dedicated towards revolution. The have all kinds of rallies, protests, and even candidates running for public office. They believe in socialism, and do not sway in anyway, such as the CP USA. I was in your same position, looking at all the different parties. I contacted a PSL member by email, and the next day, he emailed me back offering to send me newspapers and set up a branch. The party shipped the newspapers for free, which I am distributing currently for donations.

I'm not just telling you this because I want the PSL to be the 'best' socialist party. Hell, I'm not even a full member yet. I don't nessecarily consider myself a marxist leninst, but I do support a vanguard party. If you just want to join a 'socialist' party, then check out the Socialist Party USA.

Good luck in your search. Welcome to America :D

[Tablo]

Haha, I thought the PLP were taking a rather positive direction. I like their rejection of all forms of Nationalism and their anti-voting stance. I also like that they reject the state-capitalist transition.

[RED DAVE]

Like I said, just watch for whether the group you're interested in is orienting towards the working class qua working class in deed as well as word.

RED DAVE

[Pawn Power]

Most of the best and most active social justice and radical groups in the US wouldn't identify themselves as a communist organization. So if you actually want to do something and have influence look towards other groups!

[The Vegan Marxist]

Most of the best and most active social justice and radical groups in the US wouldn't identify themselves as a communist organization. So if you actually want to do something and have influence look towards other groups!

So you'd rather want to join a group that's either, 1) hiding behind the shadows of their political ideology, or 2) isn't communist at all?

[Sinred]

Pawn_power: Im looking for a party who has the potential to aid and develop already existing struggles and in the futare to help lead the class forward. I think i would have a deep respect for these groups you mention, but i want to focus on the whole picture, just not slices of it.

[pierrotlefou]

I'm also looking into the PSL. I like its strong affiliation with ANSWER (Act Now To Stop War and End Racism). The only thing that sucks is the nearest office is in DC, seven hours away.
You can probably start a chapter by you. My friend did that in baltimore and that's only an hour from dc.

[Chimurenga.]

You can probably start a chapter by you. My friend did that in baltimore and that's only an hour from dc.

True. There are literally no radical organizations (to my knowledge) in South Carolina.

[ReVoLuTiOnArY-BrOtHeR]

True. There are literally no radical organizations (to my knowledge) in South Carolina.

That's true comrade except for one thing, there's a group called the Rural People's Party. I think that they are just a group of so called communists that really don't have a correct political line but if you want you can check them out. I think they uphold some crazy lunatic called Jim Jones, and Pol pot. Sounds crazy but yea, its true. :)

[MarxSchmarx]

Pawn_power: Im looking for a party who has the potential to aid and develop already existing struggles and in the futare to help lead the class forward. I think i would have a deep respect for these groups you mention, but i want to focus on the whole picture, just not slices of it.


You should look into the Workers Party in america. They are pretty serious in being engaged in workplace struggles and their praxis is closely tied to their vision of radical unionism.
http://www.revleft.com/vb/we-workers-party-t98306/index.html?t=98306

THey're other plus is that they are big on being anti-sectarian and are non-dogmatic marxists. In dc email midatlantic+at+workers-party.com they can probably get you set up.

[The Vegan Marxist]

That's true comrade except for one thing, there's a group called the Rural People's Party. I think that they are just a group of so called communists that really don't have a correct political line but if you want you can check them out. I think they uphold some crazy lunatic called Jim Jones, and Pol pot. Sounds crazy but yea, its true. :)

The Rural People's Party in SC are merely Juche enthusiasts that support people like Kim Jung-Il. But, if anything, at least they've formed up & are doing at least something. But that's all I can really say for now.

[Chimurenga.]

That's true comrade except for one thing, there's a group called the Rural People's Party. I think that they are just a group of so called communists that really don't have a correct political line but if you want you can check them out. I think they uphold some crazy lunatic called Jim Jones, and Pol pot. Sounds crazy but yea, its true. :)

Are you sure they're even an active group? The last time their blog was update was April 2008. Something tells me this "party" is just one person.

[Comrade B]

PSL has pretty broad support. I am a Trotskyist supporter (they are the best of the US parties), but in Tacoma, Seattle, and Olympia we have a decent Socialist Alternative presence, if you are not anti-Trotskyist, you might want to check that out, I don't know about other groups. I can get back to you on information on meeting days and locations for SA, but the group is very anti-Stalinism.
If you are moving to eastern Washington, there is not too much politically out there. Marxism has its supporters in Walla Walla, but they are way outweighed by the fascists, pseudo fascists, racists, and die hard capitalists.

[chegitz guevara]

Why not tell us what you want out of an organization, then we can tell you which one fits you best.

[Sinred]

PSL has pretty broad support. I am a Trotskyist supporter (they are the best of the US parties), but in Tacoma, Seattle, and Olympia we have a decent Socialist Alternative presence, if you are not anti-Trotskyist, you might want to check that out, I don't know about other groups. I can get back to you on information on meeting days and locations for SA, but the group is very anti-Stalinism.
If you are moving to eastern Washington, there is not too much politically out there. Marxism has its supporters in Walla Walla, but they are way outweighed by the fascists, pseudo fascists, racists, and die hard capitalists.

I am a anti-trotskyte and especially the CWI-cult. I also have low tolerance for groups who referring to marxism-leninism as "stalinism".

[Sinred]

Why not tell us what you want out of an organization, then we can tell you which one fits you best.

* marxism-leninism
* not secterian
* speaks best to the youth
* focus on working class issues and antiimperialism
* base of working class people
* nice image
* not small
* modernized

[chegitz guevara]

* marxism-leninism
* not secterian
* speaks best to the youth
* focus on working class issues and antiimperialism
* base of working class people
* nice image
* not small
* modernized

The Party of Socialism and Liberation and Workers World would be your best bets, although both are small (compared to European organizations).

My only real complaint about both groups is that IN MY EXPERIENCE they don't do coalition work with other communists unless they play the leading role (which is sectarian, but they don't go around trashing other groups).

PSL is a split from WW, so both groups have essentially the same politics. PSL has a more widely known antiwar coalition, ANSWER. According to PSL and WW comrades I've spoken with, the split occurred because the other guys were sectarians.

My guess is that it was basically a leadership split; that some people thought they should be in charge, and when it didn't happen, they formed their own group. The fact that they still share nearly identical politics and didn't carry out the usual document war explaining how the other group had fallen away from the true path, etc., etc., lends credence to my guess.

I don't know which group is stronger in DC. PSL does seem to be growing like a weed, however. I like both groups, even though I am not a member of either, and have no intention of joining either.

[Martin Blank]

You should look into the Workers Party in america. They are pretty serious in being engaged in workplace struggles and their praxis is closely tied to their vision of radical unionism.
http://www.revleft.com/vb/we-workers-party-t98306/index.html?t=98306

THey're other plus is that they are big on being anti-sectarian and are non-dogmatic marxists. In dc email midatlantic+at+workers-party.com they can probably get you set up.

Or he can just PM me. :D

[Q]

I am a anti-trotskyte and especially the CWI-cult.
Why especially the CWI?


I also have low tolerance for groups who referring to marxism-leninism as "stalinism".
Why?

[chegitz guevara]

I am a anti-trotskyte and especially the CWI-cult. I also have low tolerance for groups who referring to marxism-leninism as "stalinism".

Oh, I missed that. As far as non-Trotskyist groups go in the U.S., there's nothing really to speak of, not that come anywhere close to meeting your requirements. PSL and WWP are both largely Trotskyist groups, but they have a Maoist presence as well.

BTW, you cannot both be anti-Trotskyist and against sectarianism. You can either be sectarian or not sectarian. Sectarianism against Trotskyists is still sectarianism.

[Chimurenga.]

Oh, I missed that. As far as non-Trotskyist groups go in the U.S., there's nothing really to speak of, not that come anywhere close to meeting your requirements. PSL and WWP are both largely Trotskyist groups, but they have a Maoist presence as well.

BTW, you cannot both be anti-Trotskyist and against sectarianism. You can either be sectarian or not sectarian. Sectarianism against Trotskyists is still sectarianism.

PSL is not Trotskyist.

http://www.revleft.com/vb/group.php?do=discuss&group=&discussionid=2265

[Sinred]

Why especially the CWI?
I have very low tolerance for their way of acting and work as a organization. Especially their cult like ways of couping other leftists arrangements. I know how CWI in Sweden works (they are called the left-wing jehovas) and i heard (from other trots actually) that they are not that different in neither Canada or England.



Why?
Cause its a slur against marxist-leninist mainly used by anarchists and trots. Stalinism is not an ideology. Sure there are people out there who actually calls them self stalinists, but i never met one irl.
Stalin is not important to me, he´s very irrelevant.
So its not that i love Stalin, i just have nothing but contempt for Trotsky.



Oh, I missed that. As far as non-Trotskyist groups go in the U.S., there's nothing really to speak of, not that come anywhere close to meeting your requirements. PSL and WWP are both largely Trotskyist groups, but they have a Maoist presence as well.

Who are u kidding? Even i know PSL is not trotskyst.



BTW, you cannot both be anti-Trotskyist and against sectarianism. You can either be sectarian or not sectarian. Sectarianism against Trotskyists is still sectarianism.

Are u kidding me? Trotskysm pretty much equals secterianism. I will not say that it goes for every trot. But trotskysts belongs to the biggest bunch of left-wing sectarians ive ever met. I think trotsky was wrong, the fourth international is a joke and trotskysts groups have a ugly history of enterism, coups and foul play against other leftists. Does that makes me secterian?

[Q]

I have very low tolerance for their way of acting and work as a organization. Especially their cult like ways of couping other leftists arrangements. I know how CWI in Sweden works (they are called the left-wing jehovas) and i heard (from other trots actually) that they are not that different in neither Canada or England.
Could you be somewhat more specific? What don't you like of the work?

By the way, "leftwing Jeohva's" was also a nickname for the Dutch SP in the 1970's, when they were still Maoists. I see that as something positive and think we need more red propagandists, not less.


Cause its a slur against marxist-leninist mainly used by anarchists and trots. Stalinism is not an ideology. Sure there are people out there who actually calls them self stalinists, but i never met one irl.
Stalin is not important to me, he´s very irrelevant.
So its not that i love Stalin, i just have nothing but contempt for Trotsky.
I'm glad you see Stalin as irrelevant. I'm not sure why attacking the reactionary state ideology of the USSR is a "slur" though. Could you perhaps elaborate?


Who are u kidding? Even i know PSL is not trotskyst.
Perhaps Chegitz meant to say there are Trotskyists active in it? I see that as a healthy thing as it signifies that the PSL is not yet another cult but is open for more ideas and currents.


Are u kidding me? Trotskysm pretty much equals secterianism. I will not say that it goes for every trot. But trotskysts belongs to the biggest bunch of left-wing sectarians ive ever met. I think trotsky was wrong, the fourth international is a joke and trotskysts groups have a ugly history of enterism, coups and foul play against other leftists. Does that makes me secterian?
Yes. You base yourself on excluding an important part of the revolutionary left in the west, that is sectarianism by definition.

[chegitz guevara]

Are u kidding me? Trotskysm pretty much equals secterianism. I will not say that it goes for every trot. But trotskysts belongs to the biggest bunch of left-wing sectarians ive ever met. I think trotsky was wrong, the fourth international is a joke and trotskysts groups have a ugly history of enterism, coups and foul play against other leftists. Does that makes me secterian?

What makes you sectarian is not that you recognize inherent problems of the Trotskyist movement (with which I agree-except that in many cases, Trotsky was correct), but that you reject a whole wing of the communist movement, and in the U.S., a wing the constitutes the majority of the movement.

[Comrade B]

PSL is Leninist, it gets supporters from the Maoist and Stalinist side as well as the Trotskyist side.

[Kassad]

It's kind of bothersome that people who are not in the Party for Socialism and Liberation are speculating as to the internal composition of our party. We are a Marxist-Leninist party. Our party upholds some of the theoretical contributions of Mao Zedong and his role in building socialism in China. We also uphold the theoretical contributions of Trotsky, notably his theory of permanent revolution. However, that does not make us Maoist or Trotskyist. This ideological label game is one of the reasons the communist movement is so fragmented. Marxism-Leninism is a science that has proven to be the most valid one in the struggle for socialism.

I know a lot of PSL members and every single one I can name describes themselves as a Marxist-Leninist. Very rarely, if ever, have I ever heard someone in the party call themself a Maoist or Trotskyist unless they were saying how they take some of their beliefs from Maoist or Trotskyist ideology.

The throwing around of the word 'Stalinist' is also amusing as well, but that's been addressed and refuted as narrow-minded babble time and time again. It's a shame people cannot see past labels and work towards the socialist revolution they all claim to be fighting for.

[Sinred]

Could you be somewhat more specific? What don't you like of the work?

Coups of manifestations, sabotaging spontaneous protests by taking lead in places they werent even welcome in the first place, burn out their own members, enterysm and their sectarian attitude towards all other groups.



By the way, "leftwing Jeohva's" was also a nickname for the Dutch SP in the 1970's, when they were still Maoists. I see that as something positive and think we need more red propagandists, not less.

Its not that i have anything against good propagandists, we need more of those. Its when they get extremely in your face and almost stalks people who happaned to sign under one of their lists. And when groups burn out their actvists because they expect to lay down to much time in the cause, i keep my distances.



I'm glad you see Stalin as irrelevant. I'm not sure why attacking the reactionary state ideology of the USSR is a "slur" though. Could you perhaps elaborate?
Stalinism wasnt the state ideology of old USSR, marxism-leninism was.



Perhaps Chegitz meant to say there are Trotskyists active in it? I see that as a healthy thing as it signifies that the PSL is not yet another cult but is open for more ideas and currents.

Its not that it rules out PSL for me. I as well like the new thinking in it and i guess i could get along with trots in PSL. Im first and foremost pragmatic, and i as well am very tired of the leftist splits.




Yes. You base yourself on excluding an important part of the revolutionary left in the west, that is sectarianism by definition.
What makes you sectarian is not that you recognize inherent problems of the Trotskyist movement (with which I agree-except that in many cases, Trotsky was correct), but that you reject a whole wing of the communist movement, and in the U.S., a wing the constitutes the majority of the movement.


We maybe just have different views about that one. In Sweden i don't view the trots as a important part of the left. But it may very well be true in the USA (or others). Besides, i have very bad experiences from dealing with trots, mainly the CWI, who is the biggest trot group in Sweden. Ive almost got in a fist fight with a fourth internationalist once because of his pissy attitude against marxist-leninists and the other groups (who i have seen) hasnt exactly impressed me. And if that goes for a majority your trot groups as well i have nothing to give but the finger. But, i am pragmatic. If a trot group is reasonable, honest and dont fuck other organizations over, i dont see a problem cooperating with it.
Im pragmatic. Its just as i said, i have a hard time trusting trots.
I will probably never like Trotskys views, Trotsky or (most of all) the trotskist movements history. But its really not whats matter. Its how you work today, and if a trot don't act like a snake, asshole or cult member i am ok with him/her.

[Crux]

Coups of manifestations, sabotaging spontaneous protests by taking lead in places they werent even welcome in the first place, burn out their own members, enterysm and their sectarian attitude towards all other groups.
Finishing off a secterian attack by saying the group is also very secterian is always a nice touch. And isn't this a case of throwing rocks in a glass house? I mean considering your own groups history and reputation?
Generally speaking I have no problem with KPML(r), now Communist Party, but I am just saying.

[Die Neue Zeit]

Our party upholds some of the theoretical contributions of Mao Zedong and his role in building socialism in China. We also uphold the theoretical contributions of Trotsky, notably his theory of permanent revolution. However, that does not make us Maoist or Trotskyist.

That dual line is Second Internationalism par excellence (I mean this as a compliment).

[MarxSchmarx]

It's kind of bothersome that people who are not in the Party for Socialism and Liberation are speculating as to the internal composition of our party. We are a Marxist-Leninist party. Our party upholds some of the theoretical contributions of Mao Zedong and his role in building socialism in China. We also uphold the theoretical contributions of Trotsky, notably his theory of permanent revolution. However, that does not make us Maoist or Trotskyist. This ideological label game is one of the reasons the communist movement is so fragmented. Marxism-Leninism is a science that has proven to be the most valid one in the struggle for socialism.

I know a lot of PSL members and every single one I can name describes themselves as a Marxist-Leninist. Very rarely, if ever, have I ever heard someone in the party call themself a Maoist or Trotskyist unless they were saying how they take some of their beliefs from Maoist or Trotskyist ideology.

The throwing around of the word 'Stalinist' is also amusing as well, but that's been addressed and refuted as narrow-minded babble time and time again. It's a shame people cannot see past labels and work towards the socialist revolution they all claim to be fighting for.

Kassad, I have no idea what goes on behind the scenes at the PSL, so I don't want to be presumptuous. However, whatever struggles your group has internally, the fact of the matter remains that you have a serious image problem in the activist community in America.

Indeed, I respect a lot of the work the PSL does, and they have some very bright and capable people involved, several of whom I know personally and admire. Honestly, though, what you describe (about avoiding ideological labels, etc...) has not been my experience working with the PSL. In general, I've found the PSL quick to throw out the claim of "secterianism" and yet they themselves have routinely managed to become the most dogmatic and frankly the purveyors of drama. And whatever ideological merits their positions may have, I cannot help but find it essentially counter-productive at this stage of our work.

Several locals in my union were part of USLAW for a number of years, and it tried to bring the PSL-led ANSWER into a broader anti-war coalition. However, the PSL shot itself in the foot on that one with their dogmatism and disgust for the UFPJ, and found ANSWER domineering and needlessly shameless about being a front group for the PSL. Ultimately many dedicated unionists and workers came away from it disillusioned with coalition building among the broader left. Certainly UFPJ's arrogance didn't help and there was a lot of blame to go around. And the PSL needs to accept part of the responsibility for the failure of the anti-war movement in the United States. That they don't seem to (at least the PSLers I talk to are quite defensive about the whole affair) really makes me wonder how seriously they take the need for persistent self-criticism.

Of course, I realize that vanguard parties are constrained in that they cannot show signs of dissonance to non-party members. I disagree with that strategy, but I respect it. However, it does have its consequences, and I wish the PSL would be more open about how their insistence on the Leninist methodology has hurt some of the immediate causes.

[Sinred]

Finishing off a secterian attack by saying the group is also very secterian is always a nice touch. And isn't this a case of throwing rocks in a glass house? I mean considering your own groups history and reputation?
Generally speaking I have no problem with KPML(r), now Communist Party, but I am just saying.

My analysis isnt as much secterian as it is a fact. If i (or we) find CWI counterproductive, why cooperate with them?
My group has without a doubt of history of sectarianism, something which we have shaken off a long time ago. Im more doubtful if yours have.

[RED DAVE]

May I make a request as a person who does not belong to a group. Instead of the constant use of initials, could people use the actual names of groups more often. Understanding some of these postings is like trying to decipher a secret code known only to initiates. :D

RED DAVE

[Sinred]

May I make a request as a person who does not belong to a group. Instead of the constant use of initials, could people use the actual names of groups more often. Understanding some of these postings is like trying to decipher a secret code known only to initiates. :D

RED DAVE


Understand completely.
The CWI (Committee for a Workers International) is a trott-international, their branch in Sweden are called Rättvisepartiet Socialisterna (RS), a group who Mayakowski belongs to and the left in general here have a very big problem cooperating with.
KPML(r) stands for Communist Party Marxists-Leninists (revolutionarys) was the name of the marxist-leninist party which youth group (Revolutionary Communist Youth) i belong to. KPML(r) has (about 3 or 4 years ago) changed its name to the Communist Party and is one of (and propably) the biggest party on the left-wing outside the riksdag (swedish parlament).
It belongs to the antirevisonist ML-tradition (in other words: rejected both Mao and Chrustjev).

[RED DAVE]

Thanks to Sinred. I should make it clear that I believe this strategy should be used by comrades from all nations, including the US, where, it seems, new groups are forming every day. :D

RED DAVE

[Elfcat]

Being in the Bay Area and having been a KPFA listener for 11 years and having gone to protest and other activities, it seems to me that the Revolutionary Communist Party is one of the more active ones at least here, and I imagine in other cities where their Revolution Books stores are.

I have found them over the past few years to be pretty active in writing on their revcom web site, having events at their bookstores and on college campuses, and being out on the street. I have not joined yet, but am pretty seriously considering it.

I can't post links yet, but let's just say revolutionbooks org and revcom us - if you want to look into them.

[Sendo]

I have looked into both Revolutionary Communist Party and Progressive Labour Party. This is what i got so far about them.

PLP
Pros: cool songs, militant rethoric, have the same 60-70:s history as my swedish party and its always fun to beat up nazis.
Cons: sectarian and have a insane "anarcholeninist" ideology.

RCP
Pros: Bob Avakian seems like a awesome guy, nice books, cool publishing and (from what ive sen) very dedicated members.
Cons: die hard maoist, kinda sectarian and very small.


But thats just what i got out of internet. I bet you know more about them (if u live in US or have contact with any of these groups) than i know. And in that case i would like you to tell me more about them and the many more pros (or cons). :)

I'd say RCP's problems are its leader-centric, untested "theory" and hardcore left-wing Maoism that is ironically anti-ML. PSL defends Maoism more logically sometimes. From what I've read they seem very "pan-communist" and support all revolution.

RCP even ignores Nepal and has never accepted Cuba because it was some mere colony of the USSR and was never socialist. (Um....so the only recognized sustainanble economy in the world is a non-socialist colony of a defunct state? What the fuck?)

I plan on joining PSL when I return to the States.

[RED DAVE]

Being in the Bay Area and having been a KPFA listener for 11 years and having gone to protest and other activities, it seems to me that the Revolutionary Communist Party is one of the more active ones at least here, and I imagine in other cities where their Revolution Books stores are.

I have found them over the past few years to be pretty active in writing on their revcom web site, having events at their bookstores and on college campuses, and being out on the street. I have not joined yet, but am pretty seriously considering it.

I can't post links yet, but let's just say revolutionbooks org and revcom us - if you want to look into them.Interesting that they don't seem to be involved in overtly working class activities like union work.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

RED DAVE

[h9socialist]

I have to say that I am always repelled by discussions of which party to join . . . the threads always end up reading like an anthology of left-wing sectarianism. I am a member of DSA and SPUSA, with several good friends and comrades in CPUSA, CCDS and Solidarity. These organizations have very good platforms and ideas. Sectarianism is a constant poison in the US left. Anyone in the US who belongs to any of these organizations has made a huge step away from capitalism. There will be no revolution of any kind unless the broad spectrum of the left stands in solidarity. Join any of the organizations mentioned, but remember that the goal of socialism is far more important than any particular organization.

[Elfcat]

Interesting that they don't seem to be involved in overtly working class activities like union work.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

RED DAVE

OK, as I said, I am a "Junior Revolutionary", looking at and studying a whole lot of groups' writings.

Which groups do union work as you describe, while openly declaring themselves as anti-capitalist? I know of the IWW, are there any others?

[RED DAVE]

Which groups do union work as you describe, while openly declaring themselves as anti-capitalist? I know of the IWW, are there any others?I am aware of Solidarity and the International Socialist Organization. I'm sure there are others.

RED DAVE

[chegitz guevara]

Solidarity does the most union work of any group for its size. Probably only the CPUSA does more. Both groups, however, have been pulled right by the union bureaucracies over the years to the point that the CPUSA isn't even a socialist group anymore, but cheerleaders for the capitalists Democratic Party, while Solidarity plays the same role for the Green Party.

I was a member of Solidarity from 96 to 98 and again from 07 to 09. Although many of the people were the same, I didn't recognize the organization, it had shifted so far to the right. Even their most left wing leaders were now echoing the right wing of the SPUSA. Very sad.

That said, Solidarity does have a very small, very revolutionary section, but most of those folks are dual members with the SPUSA.

[Leaf]

Thnx everybody, youve been a great help. PLS it is.

Mayakovsky: sorry, but not in a million years ;)

What is wrong with the socialist alternative?

[Kassad]

What is wrong with the socialist alternative?

The original poster said that he is not a Trotskyist and has ideological differences with Committee for a Workers International.

[Wanted Man]

If I went to the US, I'd join the PSL in a heartbeat.

[redasheville]

OK, as I said, I am a "Junior Revolutionary", looking at and studying a whole lot of groups' writings.

Which groups do union work as you describe, while openly declaring themselves as anti-capitalist? I know of the IWW, are there any others?

Speaking through (mostly) personal experience: In the Bay Area, most union work done by radicals consists of the ISO (particularly in education related unions) and various tiny Trotskyist groups (Socialist Organizer, for instance). PSL's local leader is the president of the union at the Chronicle, I believe, but I haven't been aware of any other union work that they do. The RCP here are a tiny rump and seem to do next to nothing, other than promoting what's-his-face.

[Kassad]

Speaking through (mostly) personal experience: In the Bay Area, most union work done by radicals consists of the ISO (particularly in education related unions) and various tiny Trotskyist groups (Socialist Organizer, for instance). PSL's local leader is the president of the union at the Chronicle, I believe, but I haven't been aware of any other union work that they do. The RCP here are a tiny rump and seem to do next to nothing, other than promoting what's-his-face.

To name a couple things, in the last couple years we've organized with hotel workers in San Francisco (very recently) to fight layoffs and unite with the striking workers, as well as in late 2008 when we protested across the country in solidarity with the Chicago Windows and Doors workers. All members of our party work to organize and unionize workers in their workplace.