Hey everyone

[jaycm610]

Hey everyone! Names Jason, live in the USA. Came here to learn a bit more about the left. Right now, I classify myself as a left wing nationalist, advocating something along the lines of national communism or national bolshevism. Hope to learn some stuff here.

[#FF0000]

National Communism, National Bolshevism, and Left Wing Nationalism are all contradictory terms. There's just no such thing.

Wouldn't happen to be one of those dumb white nationalists from stormfront, would you?

[Q]

The only way forward for humanity is to end the nationalist lines of division and grow to one global community. Nationalist politics are reactionary and we should strive to overcome it, not continue it.

Welcome.

[AK]

Wow, 2 nationalists joining up since I started counting three days ago (starting with Mr. Canada). This is indeed a sad reflection on our society. Anyway, welcome. Welcome, Nazibol.

[revolution inaction]

national bolsheviks are fascists

[AK]

national bolsheviks are fascists
Hmm we've not given him the warmest of welcomes...

[jaycm610]

I didn't think nationalism would be too popular around here, don't understand why so many people here are hostile to the idea's of national communism. Communism has often been tied up with national liberation movements, and Mao Ze Dong said a Chinese Moaist must be both a nationalist and an internationalist. Nationalism communism are also both collectivist ideologies.

[#FF0000]

I didn't think nationalism would be too popular around here, don't understand why so many people here are hostile to the idea's of national communism. Communism has often been tied up with national liberation movements, and Mao Ze Dong said a Chinese Moaist must be both a nationalist and an internationalist. Nationalism communism are also both collectivist ideologies.

National Bolsheviks are racist neo-nazis. That's probs why we're so aggressively opposed to it.

[red cat]

I didn't think nationalism would be too popular around here, don't understand why so many people here are hostile to the idea's of national communism. Communism has often been tied up with national liberation movements, and Mao Ze Dong said a Chinese Moaist must be both a nationalist and an internationalist. Nationalism communism are also both collectivist ideologies.

Quoting Mao won't help you much in Revleft. :)

Welcome.

Edit: And this.


National Bolsheviks are racist neo-nazis. That's probs why we're so aggressively opposed to it.

[Dimentio]

National Bolsheviks are racist neo-nazis. That's probs why we're so aggressively opposed to it.

Not really. Limonov's national bolsheviks are Russian chauvinists, but they have Afro-Russian and Jewish members. They don't want to discriminate anyone.

Everyone would have a place within the glorious Soviet Empire...

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

[jaycm610]

Not really. Limonov's national bolsheviks are Russian chauvinists, but they have Afro-Russian and Jewish members. They don't want to discriminate anyone.

Everyone would have a place within the glorious Soviet Empire...

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

This is true, and also I am not a national bolshevist, I just admire the philosophy. I liked Stalin's idea of socialism in one country, although it was meant to be temporary. I am an anti imperialist who believes that each country should have the right to determine there own future, national determination. Alliances between countries are fine, as long as the alliance benefits both countries. I also believe that each group, whether ethnic religious, etc that desires to be autonomous should have the right to do so.

[AK]

This is true, and also I am not a national bolshevist, I just admire the philosophy. I liked Stalin's idea of socialism in one country, although it was meant to be temporary. I am an anti imperialist who believes that each country should have the right to determine there own future, national determination. Alliances between countries are fine, as long as the alliance benefits both countries. I also believe that each group, whether ethnic religious, etc that desires to be autonomous should have the right to do so.
National determination? Try proletarian determination.

[Chambered Word]

There's nothing to admire about National Bolshevism (which is just a current of Russian Strasserism) and if you disagree you might as well give Stormfront a try. Sorry.

[AK]

There's nothing to admire about National Bolshevism (which is just a current of Russian Strasserism) and if you disagree you might as well give Stormfront a try. Sorry.
Since when did we recommend purported leftists to a racist website?

[Sinred]

Communism has often been tied up with national liberation movements.
Yeah but those movements often fought against many of the ideas you represent. We talk about third world countrys defending themself against western imperialism. Far from us in the western world. Its a comparison impossible to apply in a imperialist country. And the communists you talk about still rejected all form of culture nationalism and racism.


and Mao Ze Dong said a Chinese Moaist must be both a nationalist and an internationalist. Nationalism communism are also both collectivist ideologies.
The actual quote is "a communist must be both a patriot and an internationalist". Patriotism sometimes overlaps nationalism, but its still not the same thing. Patriotism (in communist terms) is support for your country to defend itself against invasions and imperialism, and building socialism where you stand. Not that your people, race, religion are supreme or needs to seperate itself from workers of other ethnicity's.


To the rest:
However, i must unwillingly defend jaycm610:s right to hang here. Not because i have any sympathis for national communism, but we already allows anarchocapitalists and other loonies (wich sometimes are even worse). Just as good to stay consequent on this one and hear him out.
Besides, no one is unchangeable ;)

[Crux]

Hello and welcome. Other than the amusing symbology there's really nothing to admire about the nazbols. But you seem like you're just trying to find your way around ideologically, so hopefully revleft can be of some help.

[Nolan]

Just a friendly warning, most Nazbols are nazis, and that'll get you banned here.

Stick around, read, participate in discussion, and you'll find where you really stand. :)

[The Essence Of Flame Is The Essence Of Change]

I am an anti imperialist who believes that each country should have the right to determine there own future, national determination. Alliances between countries are fine, as long as the alliance benefits both countries. I also believe that each group, whether ethnic religious, etc that desires to be autonomous should have the right to do so.
What are countries, but meaningless divisions caused by invisible borders in the map that serve only to dissorientate the workers from class war?Why should people be seperated in different groups, groups they did not choose to enter and groups that assert control over them in the name of common history and common lineage, something which is both absurd and flawed, should one examine the history of nations with a critical eye?

However, i must unwillingly defend jaycm610:s right to hang here. Not because i have any sympathis for national communism, but we already allows anarchocapitalists and other loonies (wich sometimes are even worse). Just as good to stay consequent on this one and hear him out.
Besides, no one is unchangeable
Why not let nazis in then too?They might change too....
Gosh.The bigotry some of the leftists assume when nationalism hides itself behind a socialist face is disgusting.Remember that Hitler's Party was also supposed to be National ''Socialist''

[Chambered Word]

Since when did we recommend purported leftists to a racist website?


There's nothing to admire about National Bolshevism (which is just a current of Russian Strasserism) and if you disagree you might as well give Stormfront a try. Sorry.

Then he wouldn't be a leftist. :)


However, i must unwillingly defend jaycm610:s right to hang here. Not because i have any sympathis for national communism, but we already allows anarchocapitalists and other loonies (wich sometimes are even worse). Just as good to stay consequent on this one and hear him out.
Besides, no one is unchangeable

True. We should help new members understand socialism better.



Welcome to RevLeft, anyway. ;)

[Sinred]

Why not let nazis in then too?They might change too....
Gosh.The bigotry some of the leftists assume when nationalism hides itself behind a socialist face is disgusting.Remember that Hitler's Party was also supposed to be National ''Socialist''

Me bigot? Yeah that makes sense. Get your mind straight.
Im not sure you read my post: if we allow anarchocapitalists, why not nazbols? Same fucking evil (if not worse).
The National "socialism" you reefer to is nothing more than a empty word. Hitler was a right-wing asshole with extreme-conservative views on nation, productivity, economy, leadership and human mind. And i know you know it as well. If this guy isnt a member of any white nationalist group i dont se the problem.
I just don't think nazbols shall be considered right-winger, they got some aspects of capitalism (nationalism), but serious, there are crazy people here who support bombings of third world country's and the New Black Panther Party, thats just as bad.




Just a friendly warning, most Nazbols are nazis, and that'll get you banned here.

A correction, the nazbols ive chatted with and heard about is not nazis and even reject Hitler. Some of them even allow jews and asians into their organizations, but i guess it differs big from where theyre from. Left-wing wierdos 4 sure, but not nazis.

[The Essence Of Flame Is The Essence Of Change]

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Essence Of Flame Is The Essence Of Change
Just a friendly warning, most Nazbols are nazis, and that'll get you banned here.
You've quoted another person and put my name instead, I guess it's a mistake but I'd ask you to fix it please.

Me bigot? Yeah that makes sense. Get your mind straight.
Im not sure you read my post: if we allow anarchocapitalists, why not nazbols? Same fucking evil (if not worse).
The National "socialism" you reefer to is nothing more than a empty word. Hitler was a right-wing asshole with extreme-conservative views on nation, productivity, economy, leadership and human mind. And i know you know it as well. If this guy isnt a member of any white nationalist group i dont se the problem.
I just don't think nazbols shall be considered right-winger, they got some aspects of capitalism (nationalism), but serious, there are crazy people here who support bombings of third world country's and the New Black Panther Party, thats just as bad.
There is a reason ancaps and other weird stuff are just restricted while fascists are banned.National Bolshevism is not just a fancy ideological invention as you see it.Members of the equivalent Greek Nazbol organisation (http://mavroskrinos.blogspot.com/) have been directly involved into neo-nazi rallies and protests during which there have been attacks on left wingers and students.They have also taken part in attacks against immigrants and anarchists and of course, no matter how ''communists'' they claim to be, they are still propagandazing nationalistic (reactionary) messages.In short, national bolshevism is just another form of disguised neo-nazism along with national anarchism, strasserism, autonomist/seperatist nationalism etc etc, and should be treated as such.

[Sinred]

You've quoted another person and put my name instead, I guess it's a mistake but I'd ask you to fix it please.
You are correct. Sorry.




There is a reason ancaps and other weird stuff are just restricted while fascists are banned.National Bolshevism is not just a fancy ideological invention as you see it.Members of the equivalent Greek Nazbol organisation have been directly involved into neo-nazi rallies and protests during which there have been attacks on left wingers and students.They have also taken part in attacks against immigrants and anarchists and of course, no matter how ''communists'' they claim to be, they are still propagandazing nationalistic (reactionary) messages.In short, national bolshevism is just another form of disguised neo-nazism along with national anarchism, strasserism, autonomist/seperatist nationalism etc etc, and should be treated as such.
And the russian equivalent to those even had a jewish leader and still accept every ethnicity into their party. They have also been in several fights with nazis and are allied with the AKM. So no, national communism isnt peer se disguised nazism. The groups you mentioned absolutely are nazis, there are other like that (especially in italy, germany, UK and sweden). However i wouldn't include all nazbol in there, i believe you, but the nazbols specifically seems very divided into a racists or nationalist camp, i think nationalism is one of many capitalistic delusions. But so is anarchism and individualism. But its forgivable. Racism and fascism however isnt forgivable and we dont know yet where this guy stands on those questions.

[AK]

Then he wouldn't be a leftist. :)
But he does show some leftist tendencies.

[ls]

Amazing, revleft welcoming an open nazi.


If communism and white nationalism interest you, especially a fusion between the two, check out the European American Socialist Peoples Front. They pretty much are racial communists. they're pretty interesting. www.easpf.org - http://google.com/search?q=cache:u-sWSyDg6Y0J:www.***************/forum/showthread.php%3Fp%3D7862027+jaycm610&hl=en&strip=1


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
EVERYBODY WHO WANTS TO SAVE THE WHITE RACE WATCH THIS! jaycm610 Ideology and Philosophy 0 10-30-2009 08:03 PM - http://google.com/search?q=cache:OLv6PsHpaboJ:www.***************/forum/showthread.php%3Ft%3D680390+EVERYBODY+WHO+WANTS+TO +SAVE+THE+WHITE+RACE+WATCH+THIS!&hl=en&strip=1

Great to know that a 'racial communist' is welcomed. :rolleyes:

[Sinred]

Alright. Thats its. Kick the nazi out.

[R.M. Schultz]

Why is it presumed that Nationalism is not compatible with Leftism?

1] If we define "Leftism" as the proletarian position, then how is internationalism good for workers? Hasn't the "global economy" simply pitted the workers of one nation against another in a race to the bottom?

2] Is not Capital the force without a country?

3] Were not Ernst Niekisch, Karl Radek, and Ernst Junger genuine communists, yet nationalists as well?

[Sinred]

1) the global capitalist economy is bad for workers. Its bad because of its capitalism, not because that its international. Global devalopment is only a sign that we have moved away from feodalism. But yeah i agree, the "global [capitalist] economy" have pitted the workers of one nation against another in a race to the bottom. It just seems like we draw very different conclusion of that. The nationalism solution to that problem appear to me as logical as to chop one hands of for saving the trouble of clipping its nails.

2) so is work and the working class.

3) frankly, i have no idea. Never even heard about them til now.


EDIT: as long you doesn't confuse racism with nationalism, I guess you can combine leftism with nationalism.
I just don't see the point innit.

[Crux]

Why is it presumed that Nationalism is not compatible with Leftism?

1] If we define "Leftism" as the proletarian position, then how is internationalism good for workers? Hasn't the "global economy" simply pitted the workers of one nation against another in a race to the bottom?

2] Is not Capital the force without a country?

3] Were not Ernst Niekisch, Karl Radek, and Ernst Junger genuine communists, yet nationalists as well?
the difference between our internationalism and theirs is vast.

so?

Jünger was not, and calling Radek a "national bolshevik" is anakronistic and he hardly has any influence on modern day nazbols. As for Jünger, well, there's a reason he was more popular with the nazis then the left even in hi own time. Was not Benito Mussolin once the promising socialist editor of Avanti! did he not too attempt to combine nationalism with socialism ? consider his fate.

[AK]

Why is it presumed that Nationalism is not compatible with Leftism?

1] If we define "Leftism" as the proletarian position, then how is internationalism good for workers? Hasn't the "global economy" simply pitted the workers of one nation against another in a race to the bottom?

This purported "capitalist internationalism" you speak of is not a political position. Nation-states still exist despite this "internationalism"; your arguement is flawed and irrelevant. Capitalist internationalism is actually globalisation - an economic position that exists for the purpose of allowing monopolies to happen by opening up foreign markets to investment by (predominantly) First-World Bourgeoisie. You may find my blog posts on nationalism to be of use. http://www.revleft.com/vb/blog.php?b=766 http://www.revleft.com/vb/blog.php?b=818 http://www.revleft.com/vb/blog.php?b=815. Internationalism is great for the workers of the world; it stresses unity rather than perpetual nationalist conflict.

[Die Rote Fahne]

Go easy on him. He did join to learn more about the left.

It is obvious he knows little.

[Nolan]

He looks honest, so just restrict him for the time being.

[AK]

We have users like Mr. Canada that aren't restricted, so why should he be?

[R.M. Schultz]

I guess my main point is that, as the world is organized into nation states, the only effective way to oppose international capitalism is on a nation-by-nation basis. Wages can only be maintained and increased when the supply of labor is confined to an organizable group. Once borders are thrown open to economic refugees and goods produced in third world sweat-shops, the value of domestic labor is inevitably eroded.

Taking the example of the United States, from the introduction of an high tariff in the 1860’s until their dismantling in the 1950’s (and with the exception of a world wide Depression of the 1930’s), the industrial output of the United States grew by double-digits in every decade, sometimes even doubling every ten years. This economic growth led to greater surplus value, some of which inevitably ended up in the pockets of the workers.

Even more strikingly, with the tight restrictions on immigration, first as a by-product of the Great War and later by legislation, American wages began ratcheting upwards (again, with the exception of the Depression years). In the 1950’s alone, working class income doubled.

Then, with the opening of American markets to foreign competition in the fifties, and the opening of our borders to significant immigration in 1965, things began to change. Since 1972 American wages are down 30% and the distribution of wealth in our economy is back to where it was in the Gilded Age.

Plainly, “free trade” and unrestricted immigration have proven to be disastrous for the workingman.

Sinred: sorry to hear you have never heard of Niekisch, Radek, or Jünger.

I wrote a nice piece on Niekisch on my blog (sorry I can’t link it here, but newcomers can’t post linx). Suffice it to say, he was a German Communist leader of the 1920’s and 30’s, who believed that communism must develop nation-by-nation.

Maykovsky is right when he says that German Communist Karl Radek has had little influence on current National Bolshevik thinking, but he was quite influential among the original generation of Nasbols in the 1920’s. His Schlageter Oration is a really first rate piece, cutting the Gordian Knot by pointing up that “the great majority of the nationalist-minded masses belong not to the camp of the capitalists but to the camp of the workers.”

Jünger was not a Nazi and was, along with Spengler, one of only two authors to have anti-Nazi books published in Germany during the Third Reich. His “Der Arbeiter, Herrschaft und Gestalt” is an avowedly communistic work, and his “Gläserne Bienen” (written in 1957) correctly predicts how information technology will be used by the owning classes to control the workplace ever more totally.

It is a point well taken that Mussolini was (unlike Franco or Hitler) a man of the left, which actually makes him something of a tragic figure. By stressing nationalism over leftism, and setting up a despotic régime that only served his own self-aggrandizement, he soon veered off into imperialism. It is curious that, when he had a “second chance” and set up his Salo Republic, he took a decidedly more socialist tack, distancing himself from the Monarchy and big business, once again allowing trade unions, and nationalizing many large enterprises. Mind you, I am in no way defending Mussolini, just pointing up that he thought of himself as a man of the left and is a much more complex figure than the reactionaries he is associated with.

As for “nationalist conflict” I trust that Duck is referring to places like Bosnia, Kosovo, or Kurdistan, where there is much mixing of nationalities, and I will be the first to admit these places do pose something of a “perpetual” problem. Wars between nations, however, cannot be called “nationalistic” because as soon as a nation embarks on wars of conquest, that is “imperialism” not “nationalism.”

[AK]

I guess my main point is that, as the world is organized into nation states, the only effective way to oppose international capitalism is on a nation-by-nation basis.
[...]
I wrote a nice piece on Niekisch on my blog (sorry I can’t link it here, but newcomers can’t post linx). Suffice it to say, he was a German Communist leader of the 1920’s and 30’s, who believed that communism must develop nation-by-nation.
I do hope you realise that in this day and age, nationalism is even more unacceptable as we do indeed live in a multicultural society. Communism doesn't develop nation by nation, it develops working class by working class on the ruins of old nation-states.


Plainly, “free trade” and unrestricted immigration have proven to be disastrous for the workingman.
Only under capitalism. Keep in mind that we do intend to demolish that system, k?


“the great majority of the nationalist-minded masses belong not to the camp of the capitalists but to the camp of the workers.”
The workers have been indoctrinated. We need to educate them in tolerance of other nations, races, cultures, genders and sexes.


As for “nationalist conflict” I trust that Duck is referring to places like Bosnia, Kosovo, or Kurdistan, where there is much mixing of nationalities, and I will be the first to admit these places do pose something of a “perpetual” problem. Wars between nations, however, cannot be called “nationalistic” because as soon as a nation embarks on wars of conquest, that is “imperialism” not “nationalism.”
As I said before, we live in a multicultural, multinational society where different nations and cultures live under the rule of specific nation-states - this happens everywhere, not just the more fucked up parts of the world. Nationalism happens both inside states' sovereign territories and between states.

[Nolan]

"Racial issues" like "unrestricted immigration" are a red herring from the real challenge facing the working class. Until you realize this, you will not be leftists. Immigrants have never hurt any nation in history, they enrich culture, language, thought, and everything. Immigrants didn't destroy the Roman empire, its greed, corruption, and many enemies did. Our enemies are the ruling class, not other workers seeking a better life.

[Nolan]

We have users like Mr. Canada that aren't restricted, so why should he be?

I don't think Mr. Canada is a nazbol. But if so, then he should be restricted or banned. Nationalism like that should mean restriction anyway.

[Dimentio]

And there he flew off.