male versus female homosexuality

[Belisarius]

i don't know if the same counts for america , but in europe people tend to be more open to female homosexuality than to male homosexuals. why is this? possible theories are, i think, that the media portrayed lesbians as "hot" and gays as "sissies", or that patriarchy makes it seem as if lesbians are "upgraded" and men don't (i do not say that i believe these theories, but i wan't to give you something to work with). any ideas?

[Muzk]

Homophobes like watching lesbians. They hate males because they don't give them an erection.

With their logic, they should hate just about every object too

[Crusade]

Homophobes like watching lesbians. They hate males because they don't give them an erection.

With their logic, they should hate just about every object too

It's possible that they also consider women objects.

And for the most part, it has to do with what roles each gender plays in sexuality. It'd be easy to dismiss the cause as men being turned on by women and not other men, but that wouldn't explain why most women are also more tolerant of female homosexuality. Then again most women I've met have shown bisexual tendencies. I guess part of it could be women on average being considered more attractive(even by women), and the idea of masculinity being made "feminine". Sort of like how if a man is raped by another man, people suggest he had his "manhood" taken from him. There's a lot of negative imagery associated with male homosexuality.

[Dooga Aetrus Blackrazor]

Men control the world, mostly. Men can understand why a women would be attracted to a women. Frankly, I think it's more reasonable for a straight man to be confused by heterosexual women. I'm not talking biology. I'm talking a "what it's like" experience as opposed to "how it works."

While social roles do reinforce homosexuality as being worse in men, it's more interesting to think about how those roles might have emerged. The above is a small explanation, but I don't think it captures the big picture. Is it a consequence of gender roles or does it arise more independently?

To be fair, most people are slightly bisexual and women admit it because it makes them popular, in many cases. Men seem to equate bisexuality with a guaranteed threesome if a relationship develops. Furthermore, women are more used to touching one another. Sexuality is hard to define. I suspect a straight women could have sex with a lesbian. After all, they can simply use the person as an object for their pleasure. I don't know if that means they have a "sexual" attraction to the person,

And I'd also add that, in my view, gay culture may be partially responsible for these attitudes. I don't see why a sexuality should have a culture. A person should be able to be whatever sexuality they want without being associated with a particular lifestyle. Maybe someone can fill me in on the reasoning behind the whole thing? For instance, "coming out." Why is sexuality anyone's business? And pride parades? People don't choose their sexuality is the message, and then they are proud of it later. Why be proud of something you didn't choose or accomplish yourself?

The gay rights movement is something that interests me, but I don't understand it. I like black coats and smashing things. Those movements I understand.

[revolution inaction]

Homophobes like watching lesbians. They hate males because they don't give them an erection.


or maybe cause they do,

http://www.unknownnews.net/homophobia.html

http://psycnet.apa.org/index.cfm?fa=search.displayRecord&uid=1996-00463-014

[jake williams]

The idea in the OP isn't actually really true. In real life things tend to be a lot easier for gay men than for lesbians in all kinds of ways. Gay men are economically better off, and their sexuality is more respected because they're men. Lesbians are often pretty uninterested in being sexually attractive to men, for obvious reasons; but men are a lot more hostile to women they don't find sexually attractive than they are to men they don't find sexually attractive.

The fact that gay men are economically better off also leads to corollary concerns: gay men typically dominate "gay & lesbian" organizations, NGOs etc.; gay men receive more political and in some ways even academic attention; basically, gay men are more able to be politically active, and are received better when they do so.

The fact that a lot of, maybe most straight men are really attracted to a certain erotic fantasy about "lesbians" doesn't translate to much that means anything to actual lesbians.

[Frank Zapatista]

Okay, I dont want to sound sexist but lets face it, the majority of homophobes are men. As a bisexual I find men a lot less understanding when it comes to my sexuality, I think straight men generally fear that I am going to "check them out" or something.

[Frank Zapatista]

Then again most women I've met have shown bisexual tendencies.
I think EVERYONE has bisexual tendencies. Men are just less likely to accept it. I think Pansexuality is natural and the whole idea of straight being the normal orientation is more just brought on by religion and social morals.

[sarmchain]

The idea in the OP isn't actually really true. In real life things tend to be a lot easier for gay men than for lesbians in all kinds of ways. Gay men are economically better off, and their sexuality is more respected because they're men. Lesbians are often pretty uninterested in being sexually attractive to men, for obvious reasons; but men are a lot more hostile to women they don't find sexually attractive than they are to men they don't find sexually attractive.

The fact that gay men are economically better off also leads to corollary concerns: gay men typically dominate "gay & lesbian" organizations, NGOs etc.; gay men receive more political and in some ways even academic attention; basically, gay men are more able to be politically active, and are received better when they do so.

The fact that a lot of, maybe most straight men are really attracted to a certain erotic fantasy about "lesbians" doesn't translate to much that means anything to actual lesbians.
several countrys have much harsher sentences for gay men then lesbians( Ghana, Nigera , Kenya*, Zambia*Zimbabwe* Swaziland*,Turkmenistan* ,Uzbekistan* ,Palestinian territories* ,Singapore*, Fiji*, Kiribati* ,Nauru* ,Palau ,Tonga* , Tuvalu* Belize* Grenada* Jamaica* Saint Lucia* Guyana*) but i don't know of any that have harsher sentences for lesbians then gay men
*= were female homosexuality is legal but male is illegal

[Crusade]

several countrys have much harsher sentences for gay men then lesbians( Ghana, Nigera , Kenya*, Zambia*Zimbabwe*,Turkmenistan* ,Uzbekistan* ,Palestinian territories* ,Singapore*, Fiji*, Kiribati* ,Nauru* ,Palau ,Tonga* , Tuvalu*) but i don't know of any that have harsher sentences for lesbians then gay men
*= were female homosexuality is legal but male is illegal

I find it kind of surprising though. You'd think male insecurity would mean more hated for the group that ISN'T attracted to guys. The female homophobes I've known have shown more hostility towards gay guys for that reason.

[jake williams]

several countrys have much harsher sentences for gay men then lesbians( Ghana, Nigera , Kenya*, Zambia*Zimbabwe* Swaziland*,Turkmenistan* ,Uzbekistan* ,Palestinian territories* ,Singapore*, Fiji*, Kiribati* ,Nauru* ,Palau ,Tonga* , Tuvalu* Belize* Grenada* Jamaica* Saint Lucia* Guyana*) but i don't know of any that have harsher sentences for lesbians then gay men
*= were female homosexuality is legal but male is illegal
But in a lot of these countries, including historically European countries, it was systematically denied that lesbianism (or at least in Victorian Europe, even female sexuality as such) even existed. In concrete terms, sure, it's pretty awful that gay men have to go through this in a way lesbians don't; but what it represents, at least in a lot of cases, is a systematic denial by the legal system that lesbianism exists or is important.

I know that's not any consolation for the many gay men and their friends, families and lovers who have been subjected to totally horrendous legal sanction, and it wasn't intended that way. But the point is not to be deluded that this implies an acceptance of lesbianism, over male homosexuality, on the part of the countries involved. It would also be a big mistake to assume that in countries where male but not female homosexuality is illegal, that lesbians live great, free lives there. In a lot of cases unmarried women have very few economic opportunities, if any.

[Stand Your Ground]

i don't know if the same counts for america , but in europe people tend to be more open to female homosexuality than to male homosexuals. why is this? possible theories are, i think, that the media portrayed lesbians as "hot" and gays as "sissies", or that patriarchy makes it seem as if lesbians are "upgraded" and men don't (i do not say that i believe these theories, but i wan't to give you something to work with). any ideas?
I agree this may have some part of it, as well as the female objectification.

[Meridian]

I think EVERYONE has bisexual tendencies. Men are just less likely to accept it. I think Pansexuality is natural and the whole idea of straight being the normal orientation is more just brought on by religion and social morals.
There is no "natural".

I don't think you have any reason to claim that everyone has bisexual tendencies. I think it is evident that it isn't true.

[Frank Zapatista]

There is no "natural".

I don't think you have any reason to claim that everyone has bisexual tendencies. I think it is evident that it isn't true.
Of course I cant. I can only speak for myself, I just think (IMO) that humans as well as animals are generally pansexual in nature. Straight,gay and bi are terms made up to label us and are basically useless.

[Meridian]

Of course I cant. I can only speak for myself, I just think (IMO) that humans as well as animals are generally pansexual in nature. Straight,gay and bi are terms made up to label us and are basically useless.
Yeah, I can agree with that.

[The Vegan Marxist]

From every gay or lesbian friend that I have talked to, they always gave me the same answer. They never 'chose' to be gay or lesbian. It's not a matter of choice for them, & rather it's genetic.

[Aeval]

I once actually asked a homophobe why they has less of a problem with the idea of female homosexuality than male homosexuality, and surprisingly it wasn't so much that he thought he could watch/join in and that would be hot, but rather than two women having sex isn't 'real' sex. He logic was that 'proper' sex has to involve a penis and thus homosexual sex is incorrect use of a penis which he had a massive problem with, whereas two women having sex, as it doesn't involve a man at all, just isn't sex, it's just two girls making out and a lot of straight girls will do that anyway so it's no big deal.

I think this is the key thing, gay men may get more open hostility, but it's a lot easier for people to ignore or dismiss female homosexuality by thinking, well woman are more likely to hug and kiss each other, and it's acceptable for a woman to find another woman attractive, therefore female homosexuality is just two women who haven't found men they like yet making the best of it (and I guess why you find a lot more men willing to try to turn lesbians than you do women trying to turn gay men.)

[cska]

Okay, I dont want to sound sexist but lets face it, the majority of homophobes are men. As a bisexual I find men a lot less understanding when it comes to my sexuality, I think straight men generally fear that I am going to "check them out" or something.

I doubt that this is the case with how people behave towards you, but just to make sure, I want to note that if I meet a gay or bi-sexual man, I will treat him differently from a heterosexual man. I will be less open towards him, similar to how I am towards a heterosexual woman. This is because I live in the United States, where many people are crazy about sex rather than solid relationships, and I naturally am more cautious around people that might want to have sex with me.

[Jazzratt]

It's not really the case that homophobes have no problem with lesbian sex. They might find the idealised male fantasy porn version of lesbianism appeal but that's because the whole thing is built up around male sexuality and, in all these fantasies the women are "available" to the man; either he gets to join in or they are putting on a show to titillate. The realisation that women's sexuality exists seperate to their desires, that women have a sexual apetite and it's got fuck all to do with their cocks, enrages your average homophobe. That's why they come out with ridiculously arbitrary defenitions of "real sex"; definitions that conviently require a man.

[CartCollector]

several countrys have much harsher sentences for gay men then lesbians( Ghana, Nigera , Kenya*, Zambia*Zimbabwe*,Turkmenistan* ,Uzbekistan* ,Palestinian territories* ,Singapore*, Fiji*, Kiribati* ,Nauru* ,Palau ,Tonga* , Tuvalu*) but i don't know of any that have harsher sentences for lesbians then gay men
*= were female homosexuality is legal but male is illegalYou can add ancient Israel to that list as well. There's not one thing in the Old Testament that says that female homosexuality is wrong, while there are many statements against male homosexuality. The only explicit statement against female homosexuality in the Bible is in the Epistles in the New Testament.

I think it's because of a number of factors. Heterosexual sex is very much centered around the man getting pleasure from the woman. Also, women are supposed to have a lower libido then men. So basically what all this amounts to is that female sexual desire isn't really important or sometimes isn't believed to exist by homophobes. Therefore lesbianism can't exist by their beliefs.

[Tifosi]

A very simple answer to this is male's want to be strong (well that is what we are told). Male's fight when they get angry, male's fight when they want something. It's not just Humans, male animal show themselves as strong. To gain power and to try and get a mate.

Many people say we are better than the animal's, we are at most thing's but at acting like male's we are not:p. We need to be better than everyone else at whatever we are doing be it sport, drinking games, looks etc (don't start about how long your dick is crap:lol:).

We are told homosexual males aren't strong and powerful, we are told they are big girl's. I hear it all the time (mostly at school) people calling one another "gay". I have never hear woman doing this. The other thing you hear a lot from male's is "I fucked your mum" or "I'm your dad". Again I have
never heard woman saying "I'm your mum" or "I fucked your dad". In short males what to be the big dog and most woman don't (well in different ways than male's).


I think this is the key thing, gay men may get more open hostility, but it's a lot easier for people to ignore or dismiss female homosexuality by thinking, well woman are more likely to hug and kiss each other, and it's acceptable for a woman to find another woman attractive, therefore female homosexuality is just two women who haven't found men they like yet making the best of it (and I guess why you find a lot more men willing to try to turn
lesbians than you do women trying to turn gay men.)

I agree, I don't think a song like "I kissed a man and I liked it" would get to number one it the chart. More people would see it as weird even if it was only
a wee joke. It all go's back to male's are hard and woman are not.


I think EVERYONE has bisexual tendencies. Men are just less likely to accept it. I think Pansexuality is natural and the whole idea of straight being the normal orientation is more just brought on by religion and social morals.

I agree, male's will push these tendencies down more than woman will (in most cases). Also many people (male and female) that totally disagree to this and force these tendencies far down are in many cases worried they are gay and do everything to cover this fact up.

[Die Rote Fahne]

There are a few countries where male homosexuality is illegal and female is not.

Zambia
Zimbabwe
Swaziland
Grenada
Jamaica
Uzbekistan
Palestinian Territory of Gaza
Singapore

[Lynx]

i don't know if the same counts for america , but in europe people tend to be more open to female homosexuality than to male homosexuals. why is this? possible theories are, i think, that the media portrayed lesbians as "hot" and gays as "sissies", or that patriarchy makes it seem as if lesbians are "upgraded" and men don't (i do not say that i believe these theories, but i wan't to give you something to work with). any ideas?
Are you asking if they are more open towards female relationships?
Homosexuality is more than just sex or its portrayal by the pornography industry.

[Physicist]

It's not really the case that homophobes have no problem with lesbian sex. They might find the idealised male fantasy porn version of lesbianism appeal but that's because the whole thing is built up around male sexuality and, in all these fantasies the women are "available" to the man; either he gets to join in or they are putting on a show to titillate. The realisation that women's sexuality exists seperate to their desires, that women have a sexual apetite and it's got fuck all to do with their cocks, enrages your average homophobe. That's why they come out with ridiculously arbitrary defenitions of "real sex"; definitions that conviently require a man.

This. In mass culture lesbians are constantly the subject of male fantasies. Even if overt participation is not allowed, men are openly encouraged in erotic lesbian pornography to take pleasure out of the situation from afar. With few exceptions, lesbian pornography appears to be oriented around the consumption of male tastes and not that of actual lesbians, although such ladies may come across it as an unintentional consequence. "Dike" has also become a cleaving tool for separating "hot lesbians" entertaining men and "real lesbians."

I can't comment too much on why certain nations have deemed male homosexuality more reprehensible, but in addition to the suggestion that lesbianism has been viewed as impossible in some historical circles, it may also be true that a prevalence of polygamy centered around one man and multiple wives leads to such cultural confusions.

[Idealism]

And I'd also add that, in my view, gay culture may be partially responsible for these attitudes. I don't see why a sexuality should have a culture. A person should be able to be whatever sexuality they want without being associated with a particular lifestyle. Maybe someone can fill me in on the reasoning behind the whole thing? For instance, "coming out." Why is sexuality anyone's business? And pride parades? People don't choose their sexuality is the message, and then they are proud of it later. Why be proud of something you didn't choose or accomplish yourself?

The gay rights movement is something that interests me, but I don't understand it. I like black coats and smashing things. Those movements I understand.

As a short answer because I don't want to derail the thread:

Things such as sexuality gain importance (in the same way things like gender and race do) because of the structural oppression that comes to constitute it. Why should someone skin color matter any more than hair color? Because we become segregated and oppressed on a racial basis. And that creates the necessity of a movement to end the oppression.

Though, I would criticize the reformist of the gay movement and their inability to recognize some of the 'deeper' kinds of oppression (specifically the focus around things such as marriage over anything else)
Although that is not to say that this criticism extends to everything in the gay movement.