The Fifth International

[The Vegan Marxist]

I'm sorry if this has been discussed before & got dropped, but I didn't see any threads on it.

But, what exactly is your opinion on the 'Fifth International' that was called upon by President Chavez of Venezuela? And if you support it, how do you feel it should or would play out?

[red cat]

I will stick to the common international line of our big five CPs. Hence a big NO to Cuban and Venezuellan revisionism and their call for an International.

[whore]

all these calls for some kind of "new international" tend to come from either the trotskites, or reformists (in many cases, these are the same thing).

i can see the point for a new united, revolutionary, radical, anti-state, left international. but an international lead by a state? fuck that for a joke.

i haven't actually seen anything else on the matter, do you have a link to an article or something?

[The Vegan Marxist]

all these calls for some kind of "new international" tend to come from either the trotskites, or reformists (in many cases, these are the same thing).

i can see the point for a new united, revolutionary, radical, anti-state, left international. but an international lead by a state? fuck that for a joke.

i haven't actually seen anything else on the matter, do you have a link to an article or something?

http://www.fifthinternational.org/

You can read the entire manifesto laid out for the 'Fifth International' by clicking here (http://www.fifthinternational.org/node/1018).

[which doctor]

http://www.fifthinternational.org/

You can read the entire manifesto laid out for the 'Fifth International' by clicking here (http://www.fifthinternational.org/node/1018).
The link you provided is actually not Chavez' Fifth International, but an older Fifth International that was formed before Chavez' call. Yes, there are two separate Fifth Internationals. Chavez should have done his homework before he called for a 5th International, when in fact there already existed such a thing.

[The Vegan Marxist]

The link you provided is actually not Chavez' Fifth International, but an older Fifth International that was formed before Chavez' call. Yes, there are two separate Fifth Internationals. Chavez should have done his homework before he called for a 5th International, when in fact there already existed such a thing.

Actually, there's the 'League of the Fifth International' which is a group of people that are wanting a fifth international to form, & Chavez called for the fifth international to actually form soon. To finally mobilize the 'Fifth International'.

[zimmerwald1915]

Misleading poll question is misleading. In my experience, people read the poll question before the OP, and the poll question does not mention that it's asking specifically about Chavez's call for a "Fifth International". Thus the amount of "Yes" answers may well be inflated by people who read the poll question and agree that a new International (number aside) needs to be built, but who may not agree with Chavez's call specifically.

[Q]

I agree with Chavez's call for a new International. He might himself not be exactly the best thing the workers movement has ever produced and this new international would be riddled with contradictions from the start (like the CPC joining), but the coming together of millions of workers and the higher awareness that this brings on the matter of international solidarity should undoubtedly be welcomed. Instead of simply dismissing it as "revisionist" or whatever, we should use it as the platform it might become and try and convince the workers in this platform of revolutionary ideas.

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

Sure; then we can see it go down the pan like the last four:

http://anti-dialectics.co.uk/page%20010_01.htm

[Revy]

No, I do not. I'm not interested in playing the numbers game. I support a new international. But not a "fifth" one.

That doesn't mean I am supportive of what Chavez is trying to do, as some of the parties that attended his conference of the "left" were social democratic, overtly capitalist or reactionary. If it were to evolve beyond that, I would be more supportive.

[Q]

No, I do not. I'm not interested in playing the numbers game. I support a new international. But not a "fifth" one.

That doesn't mean I am supportive of what Chavez is trying to do, as some of the parties that attended his conference of the "left" were social democratic, overtly capitalist or reactionary. If it were to evolve beyond that, I would be more supportive.

Large formations like workers parties, unions or internationals never materialize fully formed and I'm sure this new international will have its fair share of problems too. But this "evolution" you talk about doesn't happen all by itself. If we allow the rightwing to control this organisation because we've been cynically condemning it from the sidelines, we first and foremost have ourselves to blame.

[Kléber]

I will stick to the common international line of our big five CPs. Hence a big NO to Cuban and Venezuellan revisionism and their call for an International.
Against the call for an international itself or just "revisionism?"

What is the solution to revisionism in Cuba and Venezuela? People's war against Castro and Chávez?

[red cat]

Against the call for an international itself or just "revisionism?"

Against revisionism. Against a revisionist international as well.




What is the solution to revisionism in Cuba and Venezuela? People's war against Castro and Chávez?

Precisely.

[Kléber]

And you call us sectarians! :P

[red cat]

And you call us sectarians! :P

Call me a sectarian if you will. But I am not abandoning our international line. :)

[Q]

Call me a sectarian if you will. But I am not abandoning our international line. :)

It rather looks like you value the word of five national CP's (which five?) higher than the masses of the world combined in an international. So, your position is rather nationalist, be it "multi-"nationalist as you go with the line of five CP's.

Also, a people's war against the Cuban and Venezuelan regimes? Are you serious? I'm sure the masses would understand.

[Robocommie]

This is why we can't have nice things, damnit.

[S. Zetor]

I think it's an interesting development and I'm curious to see what is going to happen (because of my general sympathy towards the Venezuelan process) though I'm not surprised if nothing comes of it. I can't see how acts like the CPC and ZANU-PF can help with anything progressive.. Maybe if they were ditched for UCPN-M.. :-) Anyway I know nothing of most of the parties that took part in the meeting late last year.

At any rate even with this start I reckon it has better chances of success than most of the other internationals that are around, IST, CWI, IMT, L5I.. no reason really to have an international unless you are part of a real movement (if it is to be an international in any real sense of the word). Whatever criticism I have of Chávez IMHO he's been playing a positive role.

And BTW by "success" I don't mean that this international is going to lead world revolution.. don't think so. The First International didn't do it, but it was useful for what it achieved.

[red cat]

It rather looks like you value the word of five national CP's (which five?) higher than the masses of the world combined in an international. So, your position is rather nationalist, be it "multi-"nationalist as you go with the line of five CP's.

Our big five CPs are the PCP(SL), CPI(Maoist), UCPN(M), PKP and TKP(ML). Note that every other Maoist CP waging a revolutionary war also upholds their international line towards Venezuela and Cuba.

At present, the broad masses of all the countries have not been politicized enough. With all the revisionist propaganda around, it is easy to deceive the revolutionary masses and even some of their vanguard parties.

Maoists have entered into political, economic and even military contradiction with these revisionist forces. We recognize revisionism as our greatest enemy. As vanguards it is our duty not to let the masses follow a wrong line, but to turn them into hardcore communists.



Also, a people's war against the Cuban and Venezuelan regimes? Are you serious? I'm sure the masses would understand.

With all the stories about socialism in Cuba and Venezuela that we keep hearing every now and then, it does seem to be an insane proposal, but yes, we Maoists see no alternative to a revolutionary overthrowal of the regimes there.

[Q]

At any rate even with this start I reckon it has better chances of success than most of the other internationals that are around, IST, CWI, IMT, L5I.. no reason really to have an international unless you are part of a real movement (if it is to be an international in any real sense of the word). Whatever criticism I have of Chávez IMHO he's been playing a positive role.

And BTW by "success" I don't mean that this international is going to lead world revolution.. don't think so. The First International didn't do it, but it was useful for what it achieved.

While I am a member of the CWI, I don't see our organisation as a genuine international, but more as a propaganda group that strives for an international (which is of course indicated by the name: Committee for a Workers' International). The other "internationals" have a similar setup. A genuine workers international, of which this initiative by Chavez can be a start, unites masses of workers across the globe (in this sense there has never been a Fourth International, as a sidenote).

I also think this new international, if successful, has a similar purpose to the First, that is: to establish the idea of a working class united across the globe. Why? Because the Third International was established within the context of an already established international working class movement (the Second) and the Fourth tried to do the same with the Third in the background (but failed for historical reasons). This is no longer an option since the current existing "Socialist International" is a paper reality. We have to start from scratch and Chavez's initiative is therefore to be welcomed.

[el_chavista]

It's just another broad antiimperialist front. See the commitment of Caracas (http://psuv.org.ve/files/tcdocumentos/commitment.caracas.pdf).

[The Vegan Marxist]

It's just another broad antiimperialist front. See the commitment of Caracas (http://psuv.org.ve/files/tcdocumentos/commitment.caracas.pdf).

The link isn't working for me, Comrade. Any other way of distributing it?

[Q]

The link isn't working for me, Comrade. Any other way of distributing it?

It's a PDF file, do you have a PDF reader installed?

[The Vegan Marxist]

It's a PDF file, do you have a PDF reader installed?

yes, I realize that, & yes, I do have one.