What should have been done after the WTC attacks?

[Robocommie]

I'm currently arguing with a conservative about whether the war in Afghanistan is justified. He's saying it was a necessity because of what happened on 9/11, that we had to show the world that we would not tolerate a government giving overt or covert support to Al Qaeda, and to deny Al Qaeda a base to recruit and train their people from.

It sounds like garbage to me which is why I'm arguing with him.

But what's the Leftist/Marxist perspective? What would have been the best response to the attacks on the WTC, if not what actually happened?

[Uppercut]

Well, first we should've purged the CIA for withholding information from the public on what was going to happen. The American government received multiple warnings of a possible terrorist attack in the years prior to 9/11, but decided to ignore all of them.

But there wasn't much else we could do besides that. The public believed everything the government told them that day, and the motives for the attack were extremely distorted. "They're jealous of our freedom, right"?

9/11 was simply a retalitation for extended U.S. and British involvement in the Middle Eastern region, but of course, the Americans cried for war after the towers fell. And then you have Karl Rove criticizing anyone who does not advocate invading Afghanistan (a typical conservative tactic).

If Americans were smarter and actually kept tabs on their government's ethics, 9/11 could have been avoided all together.

[LeninistKing]

You said it: What shouldve been done, but since US government is so corrupt and since US government is a capitalist-goverment it won't do any thing that would block the aims and goals of the owners of US government. And since the 9-11 inside job was a tool used by them to escalate their capitalist imperialist wars, they wont put in jail the real perpetrators of the 9-11 inside job which are Israeli Mossad agents, CIA and neocons.

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I'm currently arguing with a conservative about whether the war in Afghanistan is justified. He's saying it was a necessity because of what happened on 9/11, that we had to show the world that we would not tolerate a government giving overt or covert support to Al Qaeda, and to deny Al Qaeda a base to recruit and train their people from.

It sounds like garbage to me which is why I'm arguing with him.

But what's the Leftist/Marxist perspective? What would have been the best response to the attacks on the WTC, if not what actually happened?

[LeninistKing]

Hello, another thing i forgot is what Bob Avakian from the US Revolutionary Communist Maoist Party said, that capitalist countries are not only ruled by their government or president in power. but by a whole class of hundreds of thousands of peoples against the other millions who are poorer.

And here in USA is the same thing, the US middle bourgeoise classes side with the 1% Oligarchy, side with the US government, side with CNN and FOX news, and side with all the lies and evil shit that the US government does against the majority of low-wage and poorer people in USA and against the people of this world.

So those middle class people in America you see out there are just as guilty as Bush, Zionists and Wall Street Bankers in keeping this evil system of plunder and exploitation

So my friend leftists and people who are awake in USA have a very hard task ahead of fighting against such an evil monster such as US Imperialism which is supported by millions of middle class americans

.


Well, first we should've purged the CIA for withholding information from the public on what was going to happen. The American government received multiple warnings of a possible terrorist attack in the years prior to 9/11, but decided to ignore all of them.

But there wasn't much else we could do besides that. The public believed everything the government told them that day, and the motives for the attack were extremely distorted. "They're jealous of our freedom, right"?

9/11 was simply a retalitation for extended U.S. and British involvement in the Middle Eastern region, but of course, the Americans cried for war after the towers fell. And then you have Karl Rove criticizing anyone who does not advocate invading Afghanistan (a typical conservative tactic).

If Americans were smarter and actually kept tabs on their government's ethics, 9/11 could have been avoided all together.

[sarmchain]

if the U.S. wanted a excuse to go to war , then why not target something that would have only killed civilians instead of targeting the world trade center (a major economic building) and the pentagon (a major military building and targeting it would be really really stupid if your planning on going to war) in fact thats why al-Qaeda targeted them because they were symbols of americas economic and military power
this is not to say the U.S. Goverment did not use the event to its advandage but too say it planned it is stupid and goes against all logic

as to what should have been done different , well for one remove the A.l.F. (a group that has yet to kill a single person) as the number one terrorist group in america oh and next bust up the army of god convention that happens in D.C. every year and then focus on all the neo-nazi groups who murder 1000s every year if your going to fight a "war on terror" then why not deal with the white , Christain , homegrown terrorists first........perhaps because that would not be as popular as bombing the hell out of people who look and believe differently on the other side of the world

[Kassad]

I don't know, maybe the government should have looked at millions of deaths (Add up sanctions on Iraq during the 1990's, funding the Israeli war machine, etc.) that American imperialism was directly responsible for in the Middle East and noticed why Islamic resistance forces had the United States in its sights. I bring up this point a lot, but not many reactionaries, conservatives and such seem to get it: Osama Bin Laden came out and claimed responsibility for the attacks, in, I want to say, December of 2001. There's a full report on CNN that details why he organized the attack. The United States is funding the Israeli killing machine and murdering Palestinians. The United States has troops in the Middle East and has embassies and military forces on Islamic holy land. Not to mention the overthrow of leaders such as Mohammad Mossaddegh in Iran that demanded outrageous things such as using resources for the people and maintaining independence.

The problem is, a bourgeois government that is owned and run by the capitalist class, which consists of bankers, executives and corporations seeking profit with no regard for life or well-being, is not going to work in the interests of Americans, workers or sovereign peoples. It's going to work for profit and the expansion of empire. Though you won't get me to come out and say that flying planes into buildings is an acceptable way to resist imperialism, I can definitely see why people of other countries, notably Arabs and Muslims, are angry at the United States. However, the solution is an end to imperialism, not more of it.

[RED DAVE]

Hello, another thing i forgot is what Bob Avakian from the US Revolutionary Communist Maoist Party said, that capitalist countries are not only ruled by their government or president in power. but by a whole class of hundreds of thousands of peoples against the other millions who are poorer.Poverty of lack thereof is not a defining characteristic of classes. Many members of the petit-bougeoisie are poorer than skilled members of the working class, but that doesn't change their class.


And here in USA is the same thing, the US middle bourgeoise classes side with the 1% Oligarchy, side with the US government, side with CNN and FOX news, and side with all the lies and evil shit that the US government does against the majority of low-wage and poorer people in USA and against the people of this world.

So those middle class people in America you see out there are just as guilty as Bush, Zionists and Wall Street Bankers in keeping this evil system of plunder and exploitationI think you better be very careful in what you are saying here. First of all, "middle class" is not really a Marxist term. We use the term "petit-bourgeoisie," which designate that heterogeneous grouping that lies between the bourgeoisie and the working class. In the US, the term "middle-class" is commonly used ot designate anyone, from any class, who is not either filthy rich or in abject poverty.

As to guilt, to assign guilt to members of classes who are not actually in power, is dubious at best. The low level of class consciousness and the high level of class collaboration are indeed aproblem, but to start throwing around statesments about guilt as you're doing is, I believe, not valid.

Just as a point, most of the people killed in the World Trade Center were white collar workers and building employees. Most of the latter were unionized.


So my friend leftists and people who are awake in USA have a very hard task ahead of fighting against such an evil monster such as US Imperialism which is supported by millions of middle class americans.This is true, but guilt is best left out of it. I recall that somewhere, Avakian blamed the working class for not turning out en masse to some political action. This is a disgusting attitude.

RED DAVE

[Kassad]

This is true, but guilt is best left out of it. I recall that somewhere, Avakian blamed the working class for not turning out en masse to some political action. This is a disgusting attitude.

RED DAVE

That's a very necessary point to make about Avakian. He's become not only anti-labor, but also anti-worker at times. He blames the working class for the lack of revolutionary change and it's unbearable to read at times.

[Dr Mindbender]

What should have happened after 9/11?

Well, instead of launching 2 wars against 2 already impoverished countries that had nothing to do with it, the west should have unconditionally withdrew all financial and military support from Israel while issuing a full and frank apology to the islamic world for nearly half a century of theft and barbarism. Almost certainly if they'd done that prior, there wouldnt have been a 9/11. Or 7/7. Or Madrid bombing.

[JacobVardy]

Robocommie and Dr. Mindbender, from the sounds of it, you want to know what should have been done that was in the best interest of the state and the (mythical bourgeois) nation. In that case the best option would have been to accept the Taliban's offer to surrender bin Ladin and his lieutenants. The Taliban leadership offered this in exchange for any evidence that they had been behind the attack - basically to save face with their own followers. Rumsfeld's press conference response was "We don't play those kind of games"

[JacobVardy]

Well, first we should've purged the CIA for withholding information from the public on what was going to happen. The American government received multiple warnings of a possible terrorist attack in the years prior to 9/11, but decided to ignore all of them.

Im not sure that purging is the answer, even if we wanted to keep the CIA. From the first the CIA was staffed by upper-class twits to guarantee loyalty. Ever since promotion has been for political correctness, not competence. If the Yanks want competent spies they should disband the CIA.

[Wolf Larson]

That's a very necessary point to make about Avakian. He's become not only anti-labor, but also anti-worker at times. He blames the working class for the lack of revolutionary change and it's unbearable to read at times.

I don't like Avakian's apologetic attitude in regards to Iran or many other things that come out of his mouth ,but, answer me this- why do you hold class awareness. Is it because you chose to? Do not your co workers, your neighbors, your family and friends have the same access to the same information you have decided to read and understand and hold as truth? Are Americans not willfully choosing capitalism-essentially being bought off by the cheap printed textiles and plastic electronic gadgets that they enjoy at the third worlds expense? I think it's a little more than the propaganda. I think we've voluntarily sold our souls. But it is true capitalism has formed and melded us from birth. Abject greed is our societal motivator, our engine, our generator.....apathy and ignorance it's fuel. Consumerism the product or destination. Capitalism the vessel. When people choose not to jump from this speeding vessel, after reading socialist literature and gaining an understanding of communism, anarchism and socialism what then is the excuse? Is it not patronizing to see the masses as unable to make up their own minds? Are the reactionaries not proles by choice? It's a strange day when I defend Bob Avakian :) i'm not defending him or his position- lately I've been questioning why....why why why do so many Americans choose the dark side? The existentialist in me wants to blame not the propaganda but the people choosing to inoculate themselves with it. The propaganda is one of the major problems but doesn't materialism have much to do with WHY western, especially US working class accept capitalist rule? Is it not our own greed?

[Wolf Larson]

http://forums.myspace.com/73.aspx?fuseaction=forums.viewforum


Go there and read what these people say. Tell me these people are not willfully ignorant. It's not just myspace. It's everywhere.

[Comrade B]

1. Sent Bush and his regime to court for 3000 counts of criminally negligent manslaughter, and hopefully to the wall afterward. Enstate a worker's party into command. - the natural communist perspective here. Bush should have been tried for this for the same reasons that an apartment owner who exposes his tenants to harmful conditions which kill an occupant should be tried. Bush created a dangerous environment and did not prevent the damage which he knew would eventually come about.
2. Helped the families of the victims financially and the workers who were exposed to chemicals from the building with medical assistance. - After the attacks many had lost their main source of income. Also many of the workers who helped clean up and rescue people became dangerously ill afterward from exposure to chemicals in the building's structure
3. Sought out help from middle eastern nations to bring Bin Laden to trail. - The US made no real attempt to find Bin Laden with help from middle eastern nations. Also, there is still questionable evidence. I believe that Bin Laden was a major player in the attacks, but I think it would be good to have the trail formally made.
4. Launched a campaign to improve the image of the United States in the eyes of the world, building homes and providing aid to poor countries where they would accept it. - Terrorism cannot be stopped by killing people, only by helping people. It may be a silly person to reference, but when Immortal Technique built an orphanage in Afghanistan he explained its purpose as to draw children away from the Taliban and other organizations which offer you a "cup of water" along with a life devoted to their cause, and offer the children a cup of water simply to help them.
There are conditions which create the hatred for the US, and they aren't being solved by the US bombing villages.

[CallMeSteve]

Just for the record, Al Qaeda doesn't exist as an organisation. It's really a sort of 'franchise' term, assigned to various terror cells to give the public the idea that there is a single enemy organisation that needs to be destroyed, as opposed to it being an ideological manifestation of combined anti-US imperialism and extreme Islam.

An interesting documentary to watch is the BBC's "The Power of Nightmares" by Adam Curtis, which is available for free around the internet (on youtube I imagine), in which he explains the neocon response to 9/11 from a very credible realpolitik angle, including the supposed 'war on terror'. Very informative, I urge people to watch it.

[Wolf Larson]

Just for the record, Al Qaeda doesn't exist as an organisation. It's really a sort of 'franchise' term, assigned to various terror cells to give the public the idea that there is a single enemy organisation that needs to be destroyed, as opposed to it being an ideological manifestation of combined anti-US imperialism and extreme Islam.

An interesting documentary to watch is the BBC's "The Power of Nightmares" by Adam Curtis, which is available for free around the internet (on youtube I imagine), in which he explains the neocon response to 9/11 from a very credible realpolitik angle, including the supposed 'war on terror'. Very informative, I urge people to watch it.
I've seen it and also enjoyed their Century Of Self documentary. They're not done from a socialist perspective but are interesting and informative non the less.

[Dean]

I'm currently arguing with a conservative about whether the war in Afghanistan is justified. He's saying it was a necessity because of what happened on 9/11, that we had to show the world that we would not tolerate a government giving overt or covert support to Al Qaeda, and to deny Al Qaeda a base to recruit and train their people from.

It sounds like garbage to me which is why I'm arguing with him.

But what's the Leftist/Marxist perspective? What would have been the best response to the attacks on the WTC, if not what actually happened?

A criminal investigation, just like we would do for all other attacks. the fact that a state "goes into a frenzy" and starts bombing the shit out of Afghanistan (read: the Taliban actually put sanctions against Bin Ladin in 1999 or 2000, afraid he would do something like this) shows how weak the state is. When a state no longer feels that it can use its rule of law to defend itself from criminal elements, it is on a steady path to delegitimization.

[RATM-Eubie]

A criminal investigation. Used diplomatic ties. We should of not invaded Afghanistan and bombed them...