Creating growths and "living" organisms

[Meridian]

Hey, I am currently involved in a project of my own... Related to which, I have a theoretical question that perhaps the more scientifically and technologically oriented of you may be able to answer:

Imagine we constructed a space of virtual reality, like in a computer game. Could we, with the level of technology available today or in the near future, be able to compute, in this virtual reality, the life of plants and growths that "live" similarly to the way plants do on Earth?

By which I mean that they reproduce effectively, that they grow, that they "interact" with nearby plants symbiotically or aggressively, etc.

Basically, could we create the seeds of a "living" biological system? Is this realistically possible in the near future?

[red cat]

Hey, I am currently involved in a project of my own... Related to which, I have a theoretical question that perhaps the more scientifically and technologically oriented of you may be able to answer:

Imagine we constructed a space of virtual reality, like in a computer game. Could we, with the level of technology available today or in the near future, be able to compute, in this virtual reality, the life of plants and growths that "live" similarly to the way plants do on Earth?

By which I mean that they reproduce effectively, that they grow, that they "interact" with nearby plants symbiotically or aggressively, etc.

Basically, could we create the seeds of a "living" biological system? Is this realistically possible in the near future?

I think that is possible to simulate to some extent if anyone devotes his resources to this project.

I will give you a very naive example that you might be knowing already. Consider a grid of cells . Assume that there is always a constant amount of food available every unit time, but the food cannot accumulate over time, and the population in any cell must collect all the food from that cell and two other neighbouring cells which share an edge with their's. This means that if three of these cells are populated, then this population dies. Also, if a population has no population living in any neighbouring cell, it dies of inbreeding.

A game like this is available online. You are allowed to start with an initial population distribution, and you watch as the total population either gets eliminated or attains a state of vibrating stability.

[Meridian]

I think that is possible to simulate to some extent if anyone devotes his resources to this project.

I will give you a very naive example that you might be knowing already. Consider a grid of cells . Assume that there is always a constant amount of food available every unit time, but the food cannot accumulate over time, and the population in any cell must collect all the food from that cell and two other neighbouring cells which share an edge with their's. This means that if three of these cells are populated, then this population dies. Also, if a population has no population living in any neighbouring cell, it dies of inbreeding.

A game like this is available online. You are allowed to start with an initial population distribution, and you watch as the total population either gets eliminated or attains a state of vibrating stability.
Yeah, that's interesting.

That, to me, seems like one part of the mission when trying to simulate plant growth. Of course, different species would be different in their required food intake, some could live relatively close to each other. Perhaps these also do not have offspring spreading far away. I am not a biologist. :)

Another part of it is stuff like sun and shadow and that the land is (I think) more nutritious for plants where rain lands, so weather would have to be computed in our virtual world as well.

[red cat]

Yeah, that's interesting.

That, to me, seems like one part of the mission when trying to simulate plant growth. Of course, different species would be different in their required food intake, some could live relatively close to each other. Perhaps these also do not have offspring spreading far away. I am not a biologist. :)

Another part of it is stuff like sun and shadow and that the land is (I think) more nutritious for plants where rain lands, so weather would have to be computed in our virtual world as well.

I think that we can write a program here to achieve all that and perhaps even inter-species relationships.

[Meridian]

I think that we can write a program here to achieve all that and perhaps even inter-species relationships.
Yeah, different species would have to be a part of it. I am talking basically of an ecosystem of plants here. If it is functional, the system evolves over time and the species that are best adapted in regards to the climate will survive and spread.

If this is possible, and I think it is, the next step would be to add insects and wildlife. I think, principally, the same modifiers apply here as with plants. Resources, inter-species relationships and reproduction rate. Of course, it is probably more complex with animals being mobile, and having families and what-not.

[red cat]

Yeah, different species would have to be a part of it. I am talking basically of an ecosystem of plants here. If it is functional, the system evolves over time and the species that are best adapted in regards to the climate will survive and spread.

If this is possible, and I think it is, the next step would be to add insects and wildlife. I think, principally, the same modifiers apply here as with plants. Resources, inter-species relationships and reproduction rate. Of course, it is probably more complex with animals being mobile, and having families and what-not.

We can start by simulating the very basic case, the one which I mentioned in my first post. We can then add more complexity step by step.

[Meridian]

Well, my question was more hypothetical in nature.

I am theorising around the creation of a virtual world (similar to a game world in MMO games), in which participants (or players) have an interactive relationship with the nature like in real life. It is fascinating going through the elements making up the dynamic relationships we find in nature, such as dialectical interaction between human and nature.

A crucial part of this is having an ecology that actually is "living".

[red cat]

Well, my question was more hypothetical in nature.

I am theorising around the creation of a virtual world (similar to a game world in MMO games), in which participants (or players) have an interactive relationship with the nature like in real life. It is fascinating going through the elements making up the dynamic relationships we find in nature, such as dialectical interaction between human and nature.

A crucial part of this is having an ecology that actually is "living".

How will you know whether your hypothesis is true or not until you actually try it out?

[Muzk]

such as dialectical interaction between human and nature.

Is dialectical interaction any different to normal interaction?

[Meridian]

Is dialectical interaction any different to normal interaction?
English is not my motherlanguage, so I am a little unsure of that. The words might be referring to the same thing, making "dialectical interaction" redundant.

By dialectical relationship I am simply referring to change in one leading to the other changing as a result, which again leads to the first changing, etc. The relationship a group of people have to their natural surroundings can in many cases be described thus.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Dialectics is a Platonic disease transmitted through Hegel, against which Darwin should have immunised us a long time ago. But hey, go ahead with the life simulation project. We'd learn much from it, although not what we'd expect, I would think.

[Meridian]

Dialectics is a Platonic disease transmitted through Hegel, against which Darwin should have immunised us a long time ago. But hey, go ahead with the life simulation project. We'd learn much from it, although not what we'd expect, I would think.
I am not really invoking "dialectics" in that sense here, though, am I?

I must admit I am relatively inexperienced with the philosophy of dialectics, and what little I have understood of it does seem like metaphysical rubbish. There was nothing metaphysical with my use of the word dialectics, in fact it simply proposed a material relation which in some cases holds true. This is an empirical claim, not a metaphysical one.

In certain cases the relationship between species can be described as dialectical, simplified in the following way:
Species a survives (partially) by eating species b. Species a's population may increase by eating species b. But, then species b's population decreases. This will, in turn, decrease species a's population. And so it goes...

The above is the reason species population numbers tends to go in cycles.

Again, I am not making some dogmatic claim about this being the order of the universe and my dog, I am just saying it holds true in certain cases.

[Luisrah]

Hey, I am currently involved in a project of my own... Related to which, I have a theoretical question that perhaps the more scientifically and technologically oriented of you may be able to answer:

Imagine we constructed a space of virtual reality, like in a computer game. Could we, with the level of technology available today or in the near future, be able to compute, in this virtual reality, the life of plants and growths that "live" similarly to the way plants do on Earth?

By which I mean that they reproduce effectively, that they grow, that they "interact" with nearby plants symbiotically or aggressively, etc.

Basically, could we create the seeds of a "living" biological system? Is this realistically possible in the near future?

I suppose you can simulate it all. Though it would be time consuming and very complex.

But it is interesting.
Ever heard of Spore?
It seemed to be something like that, but it was a disaster compared to many expectations. The game was supposed to make a cell that evolves into a sentient that makes a civilization that dominates the Galaxy.
Sadly, it was very unrealistic and lacked a lot of in-depth material.
For example, a cell could have eyes, though to have an eye, you need millions of cells.

It could have been much much better

[Meridian]

I suppose you can simulate it all. Though it would be time consuming and very complex.

But it is interesting.
Ever heard of Spore?
It seemed to be something like that, but it was a disaster compared to many expectations. The game was supposed to make a cell that evolves into a sentient that makes a civilization that dominates the Galaxy.
Sadly, it was very unrealistic and lacked a lot of in-depth material.
For example, a cell could have eyes, though to have an eye, you need millions of cells.

It could have been much much better
Yes, I am aware of it and the relatively bad reception it had.

What I am theorizing is definitively similar in some respects to Spore. However, with my pet project my first priority is on emulating the interactive elements of nature and so anything besides "scientific realism" is out of the picture. If it were to ever come to fruition, a large part of the experience would actually be one of learning from it. I think there is great empirical worth latent in this idea; think of the biological and sociological possibilities alone. Yes, similar to the MMO genre today, it could be of sociological interest. Unlike Spore, my idea is for it to be a game where the player is a human (or, similar to human) character that actually must organize societies based on their available interaction with, and resources from, nature.

I am aware it is a massive project, and have only begun working out the "game philosophy", and barely begun touching the physics and mechanics. To actually develop the game and its physics would be a completely different story. For that to actually happen there would need to be a team of experienced developers (game designers, coders, animators, etc), perhaps working in co-ordinance with scientific personnel (ecologists, biologists, physicists, historians)... Alas, I am not a scientist nor an experienced game developer, I am just a person with creativity.

As for Spore, I feel it partially missed its target audience by going for a design route rendering it more like a traditional, more obviously entertaining game.

[Salyut]

Conway's Game of Life?

[Meridian]

Conway's Game of Life?
Yes, well the comparison drawn is analogous. My own project more resembles that of modern "sandbox" massive multimedia online games, with a focus on realism, openness and interactive elements. My idea is that players are "living" in a world where all their actions have long or short term effects on their surroundings. Only one feature, the one that I discussed in this thread, is similar; that of creating a living ecosystem. Creating "living organisms" does indeed require quite a lot of mathematical attention, the basis of which are captured in Conway's Game of Life.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

I am not really invoking "dialectics" in that sense here, though, am I?

I must admit I am relatively inexperienced with the philosophy of dialectics, and what little I have understood of it does seem like metaphysical rubbish. There was nothing metaphysical with my use of the word dialectics, in fact it simply proposed a material relation which in some cases holds true. This is an empirical claim, not a metaphysical one.

Fair enough.


In certain cases the relationship between species can be described as dialectical, simplified in the following way:
Species a survives (partially) by eating species b. Species a's population may increase by eating species b. But, then species b's population decreases. This will, in turn, decrease species a's population. And so it goes...

I'm lead to believe real ecosystems are more complicated than that.


The above is the reason species population numbers tends to go in cycles.

They certainly go in cycles, although I would not be so quick to point to a single simple reason.


Again, I am not making some dogmatic claim about this being the order of the universe and my dog, I am just saying it holds true in certain cases.

Well, you didn't strike me as the arrogant type. :)