Texas Man kamikazies aircraft into tax office

[El Rojo]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/8522746.stm



Joseph Andrew Stack flew a single engined aircraft into a tax office in Austin, in a deliberate attack. A US website published a suicide note linked to Stack.

http://www.businessinsider.com/joseph-andrew-stacks-insane-manifesto-2010-2

Although the note cannot be definitively be linked to Stack, it lambasts the capitalist system, and states that violence is the only solution.

[Crusade]

He was anti tax and anti corporatism. I've been watching CNN all day and no one is calling it a terrorist attack. Perhaps because he isn't a muslim? Oh god now they're talking about tiger woods are you serious? They talked about the underwear bomber for an entire day.

[El Rojo]

just take a look around and you will find all mass media to be owned and controlled by a handful of conservative capitalists, sooo they don't want people to know about acts of resistance

[Crux]

Individual terrorism is a tragedy and a dead end. Like many before him, he hope that his actions will inspire people to rise up against an opression he has identified quite accurately. His chosen method though simply means he have died in vain uselessly. It does not build a movement, it will not inspire resistance and it will most likely rather create a back-lash. If indeed something good can come out of this it is that those who genuinly wish to defeat the system he opposed will reckognize this through the negative consequences his action will have.

[The Vegan Marxist]

just take a look around and you will find all mass media to be owned and controlled by a handful of conservative capitalists, sooo they don't want people to know about acts of resistance

3/4 of what you just said was taken from the song 'Underground Network' by Anti-Flag lmao. But yes, the statement, nonetheless, is absolutely true.

[Os Cangaceiros]

I really, really hope that people on this website don't draw any far-reaching conclusions about this man and his ideology other than that he was a frustrated, disturbed individual who snapped. Because I've heard him called everything on other newsites, from teabagger to anarchist (!).

His suicide note lambasts everything from the government to the IRS to the healthcare industry to the Catholic Church. I'm just glad that no one died in this incident other than him (to the best of my knowledge...I'm actually living in Austin at the moment).

[The Vegan Marxist]

Also, I'm sorry to say this but, what the fuck was America really thinking was bound to happen? They have put us at such a limit of options on how to fight back that violence is practically our last option. I'm not going to support EXACTLY what he did, but I support his message.

"Those that make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~JFK

[The Ben G]

Maybe this could be the begining of the revolution in the south US.

[Girl A]

Apparently he may have set fire to his home before this. :(

[The Vegan Marxist]

Was there anybody really 'innocent' in the building? From some news sources, I heard something like IRS, FBI, & CIA, those kinds of people. Even my step father when he heard about this, who is an ex-navy seals member, & also pro-communist btw, jumped up with his fist up saying "he's got my support!".

[Red Commissar]

The fellow seems to me to be a disillusioned and broken man. I don't think there can be hardly anything considered "revolutionary" in his action aside from his anti-capitalist and anti-establishment claims. It was an act of desperation rather than a larger attempt at a "revolutionary" action.

The building he crashed into housed a minor branch of the IRS, and there wasn't an important figure in there. He was acting out of the financial straits he had been put into.

I mean, what kind of revolutionary would have the financial standing to own a private plane?

[El Rojo]

3/4 of what you just said was taken from the song 'Underground Network' by Anti-Flag lmao.

anti-flag are an educational tool. its a good soundbite against mass media lol.


I dunno about this guys action. He had lost his money several times over, and was 54. So one could reasonably speculate that it was suicide. And what better way to commit suicide than flying a plane into a capitalist institution? i understand that he killed nobody, and so long as no innocents die, this could be seen as a reasonable tactic for extreame circumstances.

[the last donut of the night]

Maybe this could be the begining of the revolution in the south US.

Sadly, no. This is an act of individual terrorism, and although his beliefs are truly righteous, he has accomplished nothing. Like another comrade, this won't get us anywhere and it will probably create an excuse for a backlash against us revolutionary leftists.

It really is a shame.

[RadioRaheem84]

This is the result of the countless right wing conspiracy theories about the Fed and the IRS income tax laws. It's the result of too much Alex Jones and Glenn Beck!

Why hasn't this been called a terrorist attack? He rammed a plane into a government building! Just because he was right wing doesn't make him any less of a terrorist. His notes clearly indicate he was an anti-government libertarian nut job.

[The Ben G]

Sadly, no. This is an act of individual terrorism, and although his beliefs are truly righteous, he has accomplished nothing. Like another comrade, this won't get us anywhere and it will probably create an excuse for a backlash against us revolutionary leftists.

It really is a shame.

I know. I was being sarcastic. I have no respect for this man.

[Crux]

anti-flag are an educational tool. its a good soundbite against mass media lol.


I dunno about this guys action. He had lost his money several times over, and was 54. So one could reasonably speculate that it was suicide. And what better way to commit suicide than flying a plane into a capitalist institution? i understand that he killed nobody, and so long as no innocents die, this could be seen as a reasonable tactic for extreame circumstances.
If this will inspire a massive anti-capitalist movement in Texas I'll be the first the come out in support. The point however is that it won't.

[Os Cangaceiros]

This is the result of the countless right wing conspiracy theories about the Fed and the IRS income tax laws. It's the result of too much Alex Jones and Glenn Beck!

Why hasn't this been called a terrorist attack? He rammed a plane into a government building! Just because he was right wing doesn't make him any less of a terrorist. His notes clearly indicate he was an anti-government libertarian nut job.



The communist creed: From each according to his ability, to each according to his need.

The capitalist creed: From each according to his gullibility, to each according to his greed.

Sounds like a libertarian all right. :rolleyes:


I mean, what kind of revolutionary would have the financial standing to own a private plane?

He didn't own the plane. He stole it.

[Crux]

This is the result of the countless right wing conspiracy theories about the Fed and the IRS income tax laws. It's the result of too much Alex Jones and Glenn Beck!

Why hasn't this been called a terrorist attack? He rammed a plane into a government building! Just because he was right wing doesn't make him any less of a terrorist. His notes clearly indicate he was an anti-government libertarian nut job.
I would disagree. His note correctly points out that the american government is a government by and for the ruling class. If I am going to pin him to a specific ideology I would say both his letter and actions would point in a more anarchist direction.

[RadioRaheem84]

I don't think this guy was anti-capitalist. He seems like a libertarian type.

[The Vegan Marxist]

Apparently, he was a communist supporter though. It's obvious that he didn't think this very well through, &, if he wanted to do a kamikazee attack for the cause, could've selected a better building, but he message he was sending is something EVERYONE needs to look at. And I'm going to have to disagree with the claim that this guy was a conspiracy theorist & his attack was a result from the conspiracy theories. If you want to see that, then just look at the Museum Attack last year. THAT was an attack led by conspiracy theories. This was an attack by a desperate working class man who, quite frankly, got sick & tired of the living conditions to himself, & to the country. Yes, I'm pretty sure it's not going to be the starting point of an anti-capitalist revolution, but the message in itself is justifiable enough to understand where he's coming from & the reasons behind why he did what he did. When the revolution DOES come, expect more righteous attacks in the name of the cause.

[Red Commissar]

I don't think this guy was anti-capitalist. He seems like a libertarian type.

He ended his rant with these lines,

The Communist Creed: From each according to his ability, to each according to his need

The Capitalist Creed: From each according to his gulliblity, to each according to his greed

He was disillusioned with the system which he blamed on wrecking his life. Compound this with failures in his family life and constant disillusionment, he had the possibility for this.

[Os Cangaceiros]

He didn't have any kind of coherent ideology. He was a small businessman who had lost his life savings multiple times and who decided to end his life in a spectacular and violent way.

[Durruti's Ghost]

He specifically denounces capitalism and implies support for communism at the end of his manifesto.

[Red Commissar]

While he denounced capitalism, Like Explosive Situation said, I don't think he had a coherent ideology and tried to find an explanation to his failures rather than himself. I say this because I don't want people to write him off as a communist.

[The Vegan Marxist]

Fuck it, I'm going to say it, which I'm sure there are others in this thread that are saying it in their head. I support what this guy did! Maybe not to its fullest extent, but the message behind it, & the reasoning behind it. Those who think he's a libertarian, you've clearly not read his manifesto. He was an apparent Communist supporter that finally got tired of talking shit on the internet & decided to take action!

[genstrike]

So, now that a guy from Texas crashed a plane into a building, when will the US bomb and invade Colorado as a response?

Oh wait, he's a white guy, never mind.


While he denounced capitalism, Like Explosive Situation said, I don't think he had a coherent ideology

...so, a Situationist? :D

[Dimentio]

He was anti tax and anti corporatism. I've been watching CNN all day and no one is calling it a terrorist attack. Perhaps because he isn't a muslim? Oh god now they're talking about tiger woods are you serious? They talked about the underwear bomber for an entire day.

He's just another kook. But the same goes for the underwear bomber. I cannot really understand how the underwear bomber was more of an alert than this, just because of supposed ideological convictions.

It seems to be bound for a repeat of the early Clinton years in the USA, with lots of lone rightwingers blazing off. Madmen are so predictable...

[Dimentio]

This is the result of the countless right wing conspiracy theories about the Fed and the IRS income tax laws. It's the result of too much Alex Jones and Glenn Beck!

Why hasn't this been called a terrorist attack? He rammed a plane into a government building! Just because he was right wing doesn't make him any less of a terrorist. His notes clearly indicate he was an anti-government libertarian nut job.

If we should draw consistent lines, 9/11 wasn't a pure terrorist attack since it wasn't associated with any demands. Terrorism as understood within political science is an act or a series of act made by an organisation apart from any state to inflict fear upon a population and force the government to concessions.

[Durruti's Ghost]

While he denounced capitalism, Like Explosive Situation said, I don't think he had a coherent ideology and tried to find an explanation to his failures rather than himself.

I don't think we know enough about him to say whether or not he had a coherent ideology. His manifesto implies that the primary reason he flew that plane into the IRS building was to effect a personal escape from a life not worth living while at the same time striking a symbolic blow against the capitalist state. While he recognized that it was unlikely that his actions would make any difference, he still clung to the hope that he might somehow be turned into a martyr for a revolution. I don't support his actions, and I certainly don't consider them revolutionary, but I understand why he did what he did. He was no more insane than anyone who gives up their life for what they perceive to be a more or less hopeless cause.

EDIT: Also, to the people who think he was a right-winger: read the document at the bottom of this page (http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2010/0218102stack1.html).

[Scary Monster]

Why does everyone keep saying he had no coherent ideology! If you actually read the guy's letter, youll see he obviously identified his problems as consequences of capitalism and he ended it with the communist creed for god's sake!

[Os Cangaceiros]

If we should draw consistent lines, 9/11 wasn't a pure terrorist attack since it wasn't associated with any demands. Terrorism as understood within political science is an act or a series of act made by an organisation apart from any state to inflict fear upon a population and force the government to concessions.

Al Qaeda actually has a clear set of political demands, among them for the U.S. to cease supporting Israel, and for the U.S. to withdraw from bases in Saudi Arabia.

[Os Cangaceiros]

Why does everyone keep saying he had no coherent ideology! If you actually read the guy's letter, youll see he obviously identified his problems as consequences of capitalism and he ended it with the communist creed for god's sake!

Justifying your actions with ideological cliches =/= having a coherent ideology.

[Dimentio]

Actually, after reading his manifesto, I start to find his actions understandable - if not excusable. He had severe problems with the tax authorities, which seems to have depended more on the complexity of the system than his own sloppiness. Two divorces ought to have been expensive as well.

I make an excuse for posting a youtube clip, but I think its justified under these circumstances.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-eREiQhBDIk&feature=related

[al8]

This is the most bad-ass suicide note I have ever read. This man was frustrated and went out with a bang. And his suicide had a clear, poetic, although limited focus. His only fault was not going far enough - and taking an individualist course instead of a collective one. Though one never knows his situation fully and what he had to endure. I sympathize with him.

[Revy]

Stop saying he was right-wing because he was anti-tax.

Do you know what the majority of the taxes go to? Imperialist war. Bailouts.

so it's understandable.

[Tablo]

I feel bad for him. He was a victim of the system. I'm not sure how well off he was financially, but the plane he crashed was registered in his name. I do not know if he had coherent ideology, but his blog post or whatever made it quite clear he hated the government and hated capitalism, which certainly narrows thing down a bit.

[cb9's_unity]

Fuck it, I'm going to say it, which I'm sure there are others in this thread that are saying it in their head. I support what this guy did! Maybe not to its fullest extent, but the message behind it, & the reasoning behind it. Those who think he's a libertarian, you've clearly not read his manifesto. He was an apparent Communist supporter that finally got tired of talking shit on the internet & decided to take action!

The guy flew a plane into a building full of workers. There is nothing to be commended.

Beyond the last two lines, the guy wrote nothing that was pro communist. He may have had grievances against big time capitalists, but he posted his manifesto on the website of the company he started. At this point it seems like the guy was a petty-bourgeois who got fucked by big business.

The manifesto is undoubtedly fascinating, however it switches back and forth between leftist and right wing tones. And where the last lines prove he was no true tea-bagger, his business and assault on working class men and women show that he was no true communist.

[El Rojo]

Fuck it, I'm going to say it, which I'm sure there are others in this thread that are saying it in their head. I support what this guy did! Maybe not to its fullest extent, but the message behind it, & the reasoning behind it. Those who think he's a libertarian, you've clearly not read his manifesto. He was an apparent Communist supporter that finally got tired of talking shit on the internet & decided to take action!Seconded. His note shows a clear understanding of how US capitalists rob the workers, and this action will undoubtedly bring attention to our cause, even if limited. At the very least, Texas taxmen will be seriously hindered.

Did they keep records ect in this building? possible opportunity for some giant tax scams


The guy flew a plane into a building full of workers.

It was evacuated with no reported loss of life so far

[Os Cangaceiros]

I feel bad for him. He was a victim of the system. I'm not sure how well off he was financially, but the plane he crashed was registered in his name. I do not know if he had coherent ideology, but his blog post or whatever made it quite clear he hated the government and hated capitalism, which certainly narrows thing down a bit.

Hrmm. It would seem that the earlier news reports I read about the plane being stolen are incorrect, then.

[GPDP]

I love how this guy clearly denounces capitalism, the ruling class, and the government, but the moment he mentions taxes, RevLefters denounce him as a right-wing libertarian!

Guys, just because one is anti-taxes does not necessarily make one a right-winger or libertarian. In fact, as communists who support a moneyless economy, we too would qualify as anti-tax proponents. So why this knee-jerk reaction to his opposition to taxes just because the loudest opponents of taxation happen to be libertarians?

This guy was clearly a leftist, and maybe even a communist sympathizer. The manifesto makes it quite clear to me. So why paint him with a completely inappropriate brush stroke just because he also happened to have taxes in there?

[Revy]

The guy flew a plane into a building full of workers. There is nothing to be commended.

Agreed.



He may have had grievances against big time capitalists, but he posted his manifesto on the website of the company he started. At this point it seems like the guy was a petty-bourgeois who got fucked by big business.

The manifesto is undoubtedly fascinating, however it switches back and forth between leftist and right wing tones. And where the last lines prove he was no true tea-bagger, his business and assault on working class men and women show that he was no true communist.Good point.

I just disagreed with all this "he hated taxes so he was a right-winger" BS. A lot of right-wing idiots oppose taxes for the wrong reasons, but some left-wing people believe in resisting it because of where the money really goes (blowing up people in other countries, bailing out the rich, etc.)

[khad]

I love how this guy clearly denounces capitalism, the ruling class, and the government, but the moment he mentions taxes, RevLefters denounce him as a right-wing libertarian!

Guys, just because one is anti-taxes does not necessarily make one a right-winger or libertarian. In fact, as communists who support a moneyless economy, we too would qualify as anti-tax proponents. So why this knee-jerk reaction to his opposition to taxes just because the loudest opponents of taxation happen to be libertarians?

This guy was clearly a leftist, and maybe even a communist sympathizer. The manifesto makes it quite clear to me. So why paint him with a completely inappropriate brush stroke just because he also happened to have taxes in there?
Because the guy was a small businessman who blamed the IRS for his business's failure.

[The Red Next Door]

Maybe this could be the begining of the revolution in the south US.
Are sure it not a beginning of a Right wing revolution?

[The Vegan Marxist]

Because the guy was a small businessman who blamed the IRS for his business's failure.

He was a worker of a business. Just because one might work in a fancy business, doesn't make the workers within it any less 'revolutionary' or committed to the cause. I agree, it wasn't the best target, but his actions & the meaning behind it I can't help but support 100%.

[The Vegan Marxist]

Are sure it not a beginning of a Right wing revolution?

Absolutely not! This guy was a leftist-communist, which you can tell by his manifesto. For fucks sake, even Alex Jones, the right-winger leader of conspiracy theorists even went on Russia Today & said that it could've been a false-flag attack by the government to start a revolution. The right-wingers are saying the government did it! So fuck that!

[The Red Next Door]

He sound a crazy righty.

[khad]

Absolutely not! This guy was a leftist-communist, which you can tell by his manifesto. For fucks sake, even Alex Jones, the right-winger leader of conspiracy theorists even went on Russia Today & said that it could've been a false-flag attack by the government to start a revolution. The right-wingers are saying the government did it! So fuck that!
Interesting point. I haven't thought about it that way.

However, it is more or less true that the guy was scatterbrained politically--his manifesto is a smattering of both right and left populist impulses, and the only thing communist came at the very end.

Perhaps he could have been pushed further left through politicization had he lived. Shame.

[Tablo]

Hrmm. It would seem that the earlier news reports I read about the plane being stolen are incorrect, then.
Only report I read that mentioned anything about the ownership of the plane said it was registered to him. The article may have been wrong.

[Tablo]

He may have been petty-bourgeois, but he seems to have been someone that reached a positive level of class consciousness, even though he may have been a bit ideologically confused. I certainly do not like or agree with the attack as he could have killed innocent workers, but he is interesting and I understand why he did what he did. It is important that we all recognize that these acts of violence accomplish nothing with a populace that is largely not class-conscious and lacking a perception of their true enemies. Propaganda of the deed and all that stuff can only be effective to inspire the masses when they know their position and know the real enemy. Such acts at this point are horribly counter-productive and will do nothing to help the class struggle.

[Revy]

So...Patriot Act II in the works? Or did that already happen?

[The Vegan Marxist]

I thought the patriot act 2 was already made?

[cb9's_unity]

He was a worker of a business. Just because one might work in a fancy business, doesn't make the workers within it any less 'revolutionary' or committed to the cause. I agree, it wasn't the best target, but his actions & the meaning behind it I can't help but support 100%.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2010-02-18-plane-crash-building_N.htm?csp=hf


In Austin, Stack founded a software engineering company he called Embedded Art.

He wasn't just a worker, he founded the company. The guy was out to make a profit for himself and lost the capitalist game.

I really do feel sympathy for the guy and he makes some seriously good points in the manifesto. But he was certainly not a communist and his only lasting memory will be his attempt to injure innocent workers.

[The Vegan Marxist]

or couldve woken when he started getting screwed over. just because one was a capitalist before doesnt mean one will be forever.

[gorillafuck]

Maybe this could be the begining of the revolution in the south US.
Nope.

[RadioRaheem84]

http://www.statesman.com/blogs/content/shared-gen/blogs/austin/blotter/entries/2010/02/18/internet_note_posted_by_man_li.html

This was a very moving manifesto and this is what the current state of affairs is ike for a lot of people. I didn't see anything remotely leftist at all in the manifesto other than he quoted the "communist creed" but I think this was just to contrast it the capitalist one he created and make them both look bad. I doubt he was a communist. He seemed like a man who was just trying to start a business and got screwed over by the IRS and big business. He knows the government is shit, the corporations own the Congress, and the game is rigged.

I hope this incident awakens others to the realization that the government doesn't care about them but only big business.

[cyu]

Personally I think there are better ways to fight capitalism than mere symbolic actions, but there are many things I agree with in here:

http://news.infoshop.org/article.php?story=20100218185823781
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2010/0218102stack1.html
http://www.businessinsider.com/joseph-andrew-stacks-insane-manifesto-2010-2

the joke we call the American medical system, including the drug and insurance companies, are murdering tens of thousands of people a year and stealing from the corpses and victims they cripple, and this country’s leaders don’t see this as important as bailing out a few of their vile, rich cronies. Yet, the political “representatives” (thieves, liars, and self-serving scumbags is far more accurate) have endless time to sit around for year after year and debate the state of the “terrible health care problem”. It’s clear they see no crisis as long as the dead people don’t get in the way of their corporate profits rolling in.

My neighbor was an elderly retired woman (80+ seemed ancient to me at that age) who was the widowed wife of a retired steel worker. Her husband had worked all his life in the steel mills of central Pennsylvania with promises from big business and the union that, for his 30 years of service, he would have a pension and medical care to look forward to in his retirement. Instead he was one of the thousands who got nothing... All she had was social security to live on.

no one gave a shit about all of the young families who lost their homes or street after street of boarded up houses abandoned to the wealthy loan companies who received government funds to “shore up” their windfall. Again, I lost my retirement.

they left me to rot and die while they bailed out their rich, incompetent cronies WITH MY MONEY! After these events, there went my business but not quite yet all of my retirement and savings.

I remember reading about the stock market crash before the “great” depression and how there were wealthy bankers and businessmen jumping out of windows when they realized they screwed up and lost everything. Isn’t it ironic how far we’ve come in 60 years in this country that they now know how to fix that little economic problem; they just steal from the middle class (who doesn’t have any say in it, elections are a joke) to cover their asses and it’s “business-as-usual”. Now when the wealthy fuck up, the poor get to die for the mistakes… isn’t that a clever, tidy solution.

The communist creed: From each according to his ability, to each according to his need.

The capitalist creed: From each according to his gullibility, to each according to his greed.

[RadioRaheem84]

Isn't anyone concerned that right wingers will blow this out of proportion and accuse this man of being a communist terrorist? That will inflame the hysteria about leftists in this nation among the tea party crowd. I am just wondering what their reaction will be.

[Wolf Larson]

Everyone is trying to say he's a communist but his last statement at the end of his 'manifesto' in no way confirms any political stance. This act of violence, in my opinion, was motivated by a personal agenda against the IRS not politics.

[Wolf Larson]

Isn't anyone concerned that right wingers will blow this out of proportion and accuse this man of being a communist terrorist? That will inflame the hysteria about leftists in this nation among the tea party crowd. I am just wondering what their reaction will be.

But his words in his 'manifesto' can also be used against the anti tax tea party people. This whole situation stinks- it will be used to make the Gov look good and BOTH right/left wing dissenters look bad. The Gov will also use this as an excuse to bring about more Orwellian attacks on our civil liberties.

[Wolf Larson]

This is what happens when people with no power are subjugated under a boot. I'd say his greed drove him to skip out on taxes but I don't enjoy paying taxes to support imperialism either. I don't think this guy was a communist. He has a personal agenda against the IRS. He just made his personal agenda effect all of us. I'm not sure what to think yet. I need to read more about this guy before I can say what motivated him. Right now ,ironically, it looks like it was greed that motivated him.

[Wolf Larson]

He may have been petty-bourgeois, but he seems to have been someone that reached a positive level of class consciousness, even though he may have been a bit ideologically confused. I certainly do not like or agree with the attack as he could have killed innocent workers, but he is interesting and I understand why he did what he did. It is important that we all recognize that these acts of violence accomplish nothing with a populace that is largely not class-conscious and lacking a perception of their true enemies. Propaganda of the deed and all that stuff can only be effective to inspire the masses when they know their position and know the real enemy. Such acts at this point are horribly counter-productive and will do nothing to help the class struggle.

100% agree

[The Vegan Marxist]

Well, I was just watching CNN, & it's been confirmed that the wife & kid was not even in the house when it was burned down. They came home to find the house burning down. So I'm glad that this, what could've been a lie used against him & his actions, was resolved & proved false. Though, he did kill two people in the incident, but they are not releasing names, so right now I wonder if they were CIA. If so, then damn it, he's got my vote on that one! But if not, either way, his actions were justifiable to the extent that he's worked all his life, & yet has only been screwed over by the Corporate interests of capitalism. And so, whether as a communist or someone who supported the idea of communism, he decided to take a stand & deliver a message. His manifesto speaks clearly that his actions are of his own, & to end his suffering. But it's in his hopes that a message is brought in as well from it, & that is the capitalist system must be eliminated, & it must be through the acts of violence, even if that means violence upon yourself. Personally, as the people of Japan saw those that committed Kamikaze during ww2, I see Joseph Stack for what he did today. I don't look at him as the person he might've been, nor his past, but rather the message he gave through his manifesto & through his actions. That, I will always support.

R.I.P. Joseph Andrew Stack

[IllicitPopsicle]

From Infoshop:

"Fuck this, vigilante acts of violence against bureaucrats and office workers is nihilistic terrorism. No manifesto - no matter how well it's written is going to justify this crap. It took me hours to get in touch with my family in Austin, and despite their being no reason to be at the IRS office, it's still terrifying. This serves no tactical or political purpose that is going to create a free society.

If folks haven't read this, I encourage you to read "You cant blow up a social relationship" which makes a thorough case from an anarchist perspective against terrorism:
http://libcom.org/library/you-cant-blow-up-social-relationship "

I'm gonna have to say I agree with him.

[The Vegan Marxist]

Here's a picture of Joseph Andrew Stack:

http://i50.tinypic.com/a2cju0.jpg

[Martin Blank]

Amazing! For as much as all of you have read Stack's "manifesto", it seems like everyone is missing the most glaring point, at least for those who see things from a class perspective. This guy, for all of his left-populism and decrying of capitalism, killed himself rather than face the prospect of being pushed into the working class. That is the message of Stack's terrorist attack: I'd rather die than become a worker.

Message sent. Message received. Burn in hell, you yuppie fuck.

[cb9's_unity]

Well, I was just watching CNN, & it's been confirmed that the wife & kid was not even in the house when it was burned down. They came home to find the house burning down. So I'm glad that this, what could've been a lie used against him & his actions, was resolved & proved false. Though, he did kill two people in the incident, but they are not releasing names, so right now I wonder if they were CIA. If so, then damn it, he's got my vote on that one! But if not, either way, his actions were justifiable to the extent that he's worked all his life, & yet has only been screwed over by the Corporate interests of capitalism. And so, whether as a communist or someone who supported the idea of communism, he decided to take a stand & deliver a message. His manifesto speaks clearly that his actions are of his own, & to end his suffering. But it's in his hopes that a message is brought in as well from it, & that is the capitalist system must be eliminated, & it must be through the acts of violence, even if that means violence upon yourself. Personally, as the people of Japan saw those that committed Kamikaze during ww2, I see Joseph Stack for what he did today. I don't look at him as the person he might've been, nor his past, but rather the message he gave through his manifesto & through his actions. That, I will always support.

R.I.P. Joseph Andrew Stack

What are the fucking chances that the people he killed would have been CIA, seriously. Stop the wishful thinking and accept the reality's. There were around 200 innocent government workers in that building. Those people were making a living just as he was trying to (well except they weren't trying to be successful capitalists).

There is no justification for what he did. We have gained nothing from what he did. In fact by adding those two lines to the end of the manifesto he has done more to hurt the communist cause by effectively connecting communism to anti-worker violence.

[IllicitPopsicle]

Who wants to bet on a crackdown of leftism in the US in the coming months?

[RadioRaheem84]

Amazing! For as much as all of you have read Stack's "manifesto", it seems like everyone is missing the most glaring point, at least for those who see things from a class perspective. This guy, for all of his left-populism and decrying of capitalism, killed himself rather than face the prospect of being pushed into the working class. That is the message of Stack's terrorist attack: I'd rather die than become a worker.

Message sent. Message received. Burn in hell, you yuppie fuck.

Minus the burn in hell part, I share your sentiments. I don't think this guy was left wing in the slightest. He was a petit-bourgeois that fell through the cracks of the system. He saw the system for what it was and flipped out.

[Rusty Shackleford]

i honestly dont know what to think of this yet. im still reading the letter

[RadioRaheem84]

MarK Levin, the right wing talk show host is already calling this guy a Marxist nutcase.

[IllicitPopsicle]

Mark Levin can get stuffed.

[StoneFrog]

TBH i'm surprised not to see more of this happening, i guess people rather not look at their rapist. Yes i do agree he's probably not an all out Communist but it does help raise some of the points which the left try and bring to the surface.



What are the fucking chances that the people he killed would have been CIA, seriously. Stop the wishful thinking and accept the reality's. There were around 200 innocent government workers in that building. Those people were making a living just as he was trying to (well except they weren't trying to be successful capitalists).

There is no justification for what he did. We have gained nothing from what he did. In fact by adding those two lines to the end of the manifesto he has done more to hurt the communist cause by effectively connecting communism to anti-worker violence.

"innocent government workers" that takes away from the workers and give it to the fat cats, sorry i have no empathy for them. To me they stopped being workers when they take form the workers like they do, they are just like the police they are the state not the workers. IRS have ruined people and their families, how am i suppose to think of them as the workers i must fight for?

[The Douche]

There is allready a group of tea partiers on facebook claiming him as a martyr.


This guy doesn't seem like a communist to me, sure he was mad at the IRS (isn't exclusive to the left or right), but I don't think he was mad "at capitalism". He was angry at "big business" (just like tea baggers) and mostly, I think, angry that he couldn't get rich the easy way like he saw big business doing.

I kind of think this guy is the example of what happens when tea baggers take their ideology to the extreme. A lot of the tea baggers have some vaguely populist ideas (anti-corporate) which it seems, some people are interpretting as progressive anti-capitalism.

I dunno, maybe more stuff will come out in the coming days.

[Number 16 Bus Shelter]

I'm going to stand by The Vegan Marxist here.
It's pretty damn clear the guy wasn't a right wing/conspiracy nut.
Judging by his manifesto, By default, rather than his own design, I would place him in a more radical left direction, though, ideologically, he is blurry. I would say he's pretty persuasive with the subjects he touches upon.

The Guy Has Balls. I respect what he did, and the reasons he did it.

[Guerrilla22]

Fox News was trying to claim he was a Marxist, LOL

[Joe_Germinal]

Amazing! For as much as all of you have read Stack's "manifesto", it seems like everyone is missing the most glaring point, at least for those who see things from a class perspective. This guy, for all of his left-populism and decrying of capitalism, killed himself rather than face the prospect of being pushed into the working class. That is the message of Stack's terrorist attack: I'd rather die than become a worker.

Message sent. Message received. Burn in hell, you yuppie fuck.

I think you're absolutely right about Stack's class orientation; but I wouldn't be as hard on him. Stack was a petit bourgeois undergoing the process of proletarianization and clearly wasn't a leftist, but I think his manifesto shows him to be emblematic of the failure of the American left.

The reason some people want to make him out to be a leftist is that he realized the existence of the ruling class and understood that capitalism was making his life miserable. That doesn't make him a leftist. There is nothing in the manifesto about the labor movement, nothing about imperialism, nothing about the working class (other than a few lines underscoring how Stack saw himself as above contemptuous the workers).

The insights of Stack's "manifesto" are not titanic intellectual achievements; almost everyone in this country realizes that there is a ruling class, and most people, even if they don't talk directly about capitalism, realize that it makes their lives miserable. Unlike Stack, they might still say they "believe" in capitalism, but they hate their bosses, they hate the prices at the supermarket, the hate the fact that their kids can't get a decent education, and that they can't get decent health care. But like Stack, most of these people don't become leftists. Instead they lash out at the tax system, or immigrants, or people of a different race, or the Democrats, or the Republicans, or gay people, or the Illuminati, or the Jews, or some other scapegoat.

The reason Stack flew into the building is because he though he was alone in his problems, viz. he didn't realize his problems were a social phenonmenon around which there could be (and is) a movement. The two people he killed were probably just IRS office workers and very likely felt the same way he did about their lives, albeit almost certainly less strongly. Under different circumstances, they could have been cast as comrades, instead they appear on the stage as a terrorist and his victims.

Stack might have become a leftist if someone had taught him about class struggle, about the failing rate of profit, about socialist revolution. But nobody did. Instead he typed his manifesto alone. Instead of joining the struggle to emancipate the workers, he produced a fetid mess of tenth-rate insights about the ruling class, George Orwell fantasies, bizarre anti-Catholicism, and pointlessly Talmudic exegeses of the 1986 tax code, not to mention three corpses.

This country is full of people like Joe Stack. Many of them are probably on the edges of the tea party movement, or Ron Paulies, or right-libertarians, or apolitical nihilists. We often look at these people as our enemies, but we should take the time to look at them as potential recruits. They know that the current system makes them miserable, they know they're not as free as they're told they are. All too often, its idiotic populists of the right and the left (but mainly the right) who give them an answer. Unfortunately, the answer is 1% insight and 99% bullshit. Joe Stack wasn't a leftist--he was driven to nihilism by the capitalist system--but he was exactly the type of person we should be out there trying to recruit.

[Martin Blank]

Joe Stack wasn't a leftist--he was driven to nihilism by the capitalist system--but he was exactly the type of person we should be out there trying to recruit.

I disagree. I think Stack is precisely the kind of person self-described socialist and communist organizations should be turning away. That kind of contempt for the working class cannot be wiped away by reading Marx or going to street protests.

His nihilism is part and parcel of petty-bourgeois consciousness. He was looking for short-cuts and miracles to carry him into the higher layers of his class. His preferred method of short-cutting was ... refusing to pay his taxes. And he got busted by the IRS three times! You would think that, after the first two times, he would have gotten the hint. But, no. He tried once more, in another state, and got nailed again.

So, facing the prospect of having to get a real job and work for a living, what was his solution? Why, it was to burn his house down (leaving his wife and daughter homeless) and pilot his privately-owned plane into a building full of public employees in order to generate a "body count" (which currently stands at two: Stack and a clerk in the IRS office). In short, his death was indicative of his life: crash and burn.

I'd rather recruit the workers he targeted than him.

Fuck him. I hope he survived the crash so that he could burn (slowly) in the ensuing fire.

[Joe_Germinal]

I disagree. I think Stack is precisely the kind of person self-described socialist and communist organizations should be turning away. That kind of contempt for the working class cannot be wiped away by reading Marx or going to street protests.

His nihilism is part and parcel of petty-bourgeois consciousness.

Petit-bourgeois consciousness is determined by petit-bourgeois life. Joe Stack, as you rightly pointed out, was heading working class. So are a lot of people. Even more people are working class with similar views who have been taught to think of themselves as "middle class." That notion is being steadily undermined by declining real wages. Their anger at the situation is going to go somewhere, if not towards socialism or nihilistic terrorism, then eventually to some form of fascism. Of course we should primarily organize the currently working class, but the anger of downwardly mobile has historically been a very powerful force, and I think it should be at our command not the right's.

[Martin Blank]

Petit-bourgeois consciousness is determined by petit-bourgeois life. Joe Stack, as you rightly pointed out, was heading working class. So are a lot of people. Even more people are working class with similar views who have been taught to think of themselves as "middle class." That notion is being steadily undermined by declining real wages. Their anger at the situation is going to go somewhere, if not towards socialism or nihilistic terrorism, then eventually to some form of fascism. Of course we should primarily organize the currently working class, but the anger of downwardly mobile has historically been a very powerful force, and I think it should be at our command not the right's.

Yes, social being determines consciousness. But direction does not equal transition. Just because Stack was being pushed into the working class doesn't mean he was accepting that transition, either in his social being or his consciousness. In fact, his act of terrorism was the ultimate expression of his unwillingness to accept that change.

Again, this is an expression of the reality of the modern petty bourgeoisie. Their role as an appendage of and buffer for the bourgeoisie has transformed their position between the capitalists and the working class. They are no longer the class of individual producers that can be relatively easily proletarianized. Since the early 20th century, the petty bourgeoisie has served as the organizers of exploitation: managers, professionals, consultants, bureaucrats and officials, cops and guards, etc. Even so-called "small business owners" like Stack were de facto managers, with loan institutions and Wall Street brokers being the real owners of "his" business. Thus, there is no path to "proletarianization" that does not involve their ruin in advance.

That reality facing the petty bourgeoisie -- of being ruined and liquidated before being "proletarianized" -- has given members of that class a consciousness that is particularly malicious and malignant when it comes to their relationship with the working class. They will not accept "proletarianization" without a fight, be it with the bourgeoisie or with the proletariat. They will not accept anything short of their own dominance, at least over the working class.

Stack is indicative of this malignancy that is inherent in the modern petty bourgeoisie. He would sooner kill himself than see himself as no better than ... a worker. And he's not alone in this. Whether liberal or conservative, fascist or socialist, the politicized petty bourgeois will never accept being placed at eye level to the proletarian. Whether they hide behind the elephant, ass, swastika or hammer-and-sickle, the petty bourgeois will carry the same program: the dominance of the organizers of exploitation. They'll come up with numerous and varied sub-doctrines of existing ideologies that fit their world view, but they will all have a similar "line" when it comes to who is in charge.

In the end, we don't need to lead these elements; we need to neutralize them as a potential enemy. They are not our ally; they are our enemy, too.

[Dimentio]

I love how this guy clearly denounces capitalism, the ruling class, and the government, but the moment he mentions taxes, RevLefters denounce him as a right-wing libertarian!

Guys, just because one is anti-taxes does not necessarily make one a right-winger or libertarian. In fact, as communists who support a moneyless economy, we too would qualify as anti-tax proponents. So why this knee-jerk reaction to his opposition to taxes just because the loudest opponents of taxation happen to be libertarians?

This guy was clearly a leftist, and maybe even a communist sympathizer. The manifesto makes it quite clear to me. So why paint him with a completely inappropriate brush stroke just because he also happened to have taxes in there?

No matter communist, islamist or fascist... to fly a plane into a building is pretty fucked up and clearly not any result of any ideological revelation.

[AK]

just take a look around and you will find all mass media to be owned and controlled by a handful of conservative capitalists, sooo they don't want people to know about acts of resistance
You took that line from the Anti-Flag song "Underground Network", didn't you?

*reads further*


3/4 of what you just said was taken from the song 'Underground Network' by Anti-Flag lmao. But yes, the statement, nonetheless, is absolutely true.

Well... it's still a good song by a great band :thumbup1:

[JacobVardy]

I think this guy should be considered like Alexander Soloviev or Dmitry Karakozov. He was not a member of an anarchist or Leninist group. And his act was counter-productive. However we can not deny the moral right of any individual to strike a blow against the agents of capitalist oppression.

[Dimentio]

I think this guy should be considered like Alexander Soloviev or Dmitry Karakozov. He was not a member of an anarchist or Leninist group. And his act was counter-productive. However we can not deny the moral right of any individual to strike a blow against the agents of capitalist oppression.

No. He was like the "Falling Down" guy.

[The Vegan Marxist]

He was still a guy who decided to take SOME kind of action, & not wait for some miracle behind the computer.

[revolution inaction]

He was still a guy who decided to take SOME kind of action, & not wait for some miracle behind the computer.

and in doing he demonstrated how doing something can be worse than doing nothing

[The Vegan Marxist]

and in doing he demonstrated how doing something can be worse than doing nothing

Really? What happened that isn't already apparent right now, in effect to the actions he took?

[The Douche]

He was still a guy who decided to take SOME kind of action, & not wait for some miracle behind the computer.

Tea baggers are taking action too.

The guy hated the government because he wasn't rich, I'm not ready to take his side.

Leftists don't oppose capitalism because we didn't make it. Thats why tea baggers practice a crude anti-capitalism. (specifically, anti-corporatism)

I don't think he was endorsing the "communist creed" at the end of his manifesto I think it was more of this "this doesn't work" and "this doesn't work" so "goodbye cruel world".

[9]

Why the fuck did he burn his house down when he had a family he could have left it to? The guy sounds like a contemptible egocentric idiot who couldn't come to terms with the notion of ending his life without receiving recognition, so he hatched some stupid scheme to try and make himself a martyr, rather than putting a gun in his mouth and going quietly like everyone else so to minimize the suffering and public humiliation incurred upon his family. Obviously it is a different story when victims of oppression and persecution resort to acts like this out of desperation, and while such incidents aren’t productive in any way, they also should not be condemned. This, however, is not one of those incidents - it is a frustrated petit-bourgeois who cheated on his taxes and couldn’t deal with it when things didn’t work out to his benefit. Honestly, what a coward.

[the last donut of the night]

A plane crashes into a tax office, a man dies, writes a well-rounded leftist creed, and RevLeft -- home of the armchair left -- continues to bog itself into yet another theoretical discussion...

[9]

^Yes, we should all really be out killing ourselves instead in pointless attempts at self-martyrdom which don't contribute one single iota to the cause of workers' emancipation. That’s what being a ‘leftist’ is really all about!
Frustrated petit-bourgeois of the world, unite!

[Guerrilla22]

What Apikoros said. He was an ego centric asshole who blamed anyone and everyone for his failings in the business world, except for himself. Instead of buring down his house he could have left it for someone else to live in.

[the last donut of the night]

^Yes, we should all really be out killing ourselves instead in pointless attempts at self-martyrdom which don't contribute one single iota to the cause of workers' emancipation. That’s what being a ‘leftist’ is really all about!
Frustrated petit-bourgeois of the world, unite!

How cute.

My post was not a call to "self martyrdom", it was a mere comment on how we will continue and continue and continue to talk and talk but rarely do I see somebody actually do anything around here. It also didn't apply solely to this thread; maybe it was a bit misplaced. But I never called for anything of the like of which you suggest.

[cb9's_unity]

How cute.

My post was not a call to "self martyrdom", it was a mere comment on how we will continue and continue and continue to talk and talk but rarely do I see somebody actually do anything around here. It also didn't apply solely to this thread; maybe it was a bit misplaced. But I never called for anything of the like of which you suggest.

So should we not criticize a petty-bourgeois man who kills workers? Is there actually anything pro-leftist in his manifesto? Sure there is a lot of anti-big business stuff, but there is nothing that is actually pro-worker or pro-communist.

The whole Joe Stack scenario is a unique and complex one and could use theoretical discussion.

[eyedrop]

What Apikoros said. He was an ego centric asshole who blamed anyone and everyone for his failings in the business world, except for himself. Instead of buring down his house he could have left it for someone else to live in.

Wasn't he heavily indebted? So the house would probably go straight into the banks coffers anyway. So I can see some reason behind burning it.


Seems he didn't cope to well with discovering that the American Dream ain't so true. Most people who tries to climb the capitalist ladder fails.

[RadioRaheem84]

A plane crashes into a tax office, a man dies, writes a well-rounded leftist creed, and RevLeft -- home of the armchair left -- continues to bog itself into yet another theoretical discussion...



The man was not a leftist. His screed was petit-beourgeois and his contempt for the government and big business was because he didn't make it as a sucessful businessman. He hated the thought of being a working class man and suffered long and hard to avoid being one. He was making fun of communism at the end of his manifesto. He was contrasting two mantras and showing that neither work.

Fox News and the right wing radio crowd are caliing this guy a marxist!

[Sendo]

I think this proves just how unstable the petty bourgeois are and how they could go either way in class war. He had a mix of right and left populism yes, but the right is quick to disown him.

I don't think it's as simple as he would rather die than be a proletarian, I think he snapped because he followed the path of hard-work = success and comfort in old age mantra and got screwed. He had skills and he wanted to use them. I can't blame for not wanting to be underpaid for his labor.

If he had a choice between fascism or socialism he would choose the latter it seems. If the PLA came in he would support New Democracy, People's Democracy et al over a libertarian one. He obviously supports social spending.

[Wanted Man]

The whole event is fairly sad, considering that people died or were wounded pointlessly.

Not quite as sad, but still rather disturbing, is that liberal and conservative hystericals in the US are trying to blame each other for this, as well as some of the responses here:


He was still a guy who decided to take SOME kind of action, & not wait for some miracle behind the computer.

What, like you? You seem to be waiting behind your computer for "miracles" like this attack.


A plane crashes into a tax office, a man dies, writes a well-rounded leftist creed, and RevLeft -- home of the armchair left -- continues to bog itself into yet another theoretical discussion...

This one scores high for being both pompous and denouncing Revleft as a whole, as if the poster is not part of Revleft. Where is the theoretical discussion here, anyway?


How cute.

My post was not a call to "self martyrdom", it was a mere comment on how we will continue and continue and continue to talk and talk but rarely do I see somebody actually do anything around here. It also didn't apply solely to this thread; maybe it was a bit misplaced. But I never called for anything of the like of which you suggest.

Sorry, but this is straight bullshit. Please don't use "we" when you mean to say "I". This is pure projection, just like the post by the Vegan guy quoted above. If you look hard enough, you'll find plenty of people here reporting on their activities. Usually, they do this in things called "organisations", and they tend not to fly planes into buildings. This may sound like a confusing concept, but check it out.

Of course there are armchair socialists on the internet, that is no surprise, but don't assume that everyone is one. It's a bit insulting to be called such a thing for the crime of refusing to endorse a guy flying a plane into a building.

[Tablo]

Why the fuck did he burn his house down when he had a family he could have left it to?
Actually he was losing his house so he figured burning it would be better than letting it get taken away. Still, it could have spread and destroyed the homes of others in his neighborhood.

[Comrade B]

I admit that I feel some sympathy for this guy, but his action didn't achieve anything.

I am a little worried though what the repercussions for this will be in the States. This country is a fan of scapegoats

[RadioRaheem84]

Marxists, leftists easy targets.

[The Vegan Marxist]

I don't think this will hurt the Communist supporters, given that the vast majority have called this guy a 'tea-bagger', & despite the idea that they called him a marxist on fox news, they are now comparing him to Osama bin Laden, calling him a radical 'constitutionalist, & the only thing I've heard about any comparison of communism with Stack is when Beck compared him to Van Jones, despite the fact that Van Jones is no longer a Communist.

Update: Actually, I'll take back what I said above, Van Jones is still committed to Communist ideals & is still heavily for social-justice for workers world-wide, that's apparent. He's just become kind of revisionist with his idea of eco-capitalism, which really doesn't even play with the free-market system nor the idea of helping out big-business. It's just some weird term that endorses wealth as an element of becoming environmentally friendly. Either way, he's still a communist, & is still friends with people like Maoist Elizabeth Martinez, still is a fan of Amilcar Cabral, & is still a supporter in releasing Mumia abu-Jamal.

[Wolf Larson]

This is what happens when people with no power are subjugated under a boot. I'd say his greed drove him to skip out on taxes but I don't enjoy paying taxes to support imperialism either. I don't think this guy was a communist. He has a personal agenda against the IRS. He just made his personal agenda effect all of us. I'm not sure what to think yet. I need to read more about this guy before I can say what motivated him. Right now ,ironically, it looks like it was greed that motivated him.

Yep. Motivated by greed. I've read all I need to know and some posters have nailed it. He was a small capitalist driven by self interest- he was no communist/socialist. He was angry that he didn't have more privilege. He was a capitalist and his greed killed him. He did have some generic basic points most any American should be able to understand or articulate....he see's the system. He was not operating in solidarity with workers he was motivated by self interest. On a different note- what do you think of this capitalist "having a heart": http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/video/boss-company-workers-9881720

[Dimentio]

Marxists, leftists easy targets.

Most likely, we will see more attacks against the government. But they had it coming anyway.

[bcbm]

a little background (http://www.noslaves.com/content/joe-stack-suicide-note-what-he-talking-about) on some of the tax issues mentioned in the suicide note.

[Jimmie Higgins]

I definitely side with people here who are saying that this guy, was in no way a real leftist. It's actually kinda scary that others are claiming he is on our side just because he was angry at corporations. We define politics based on whose interests are being represented, not surface issues: for example fascists, are against the Iraq war and big corporations and Zionism too... but they are also class enemies and against these things for totally different and totally fucked up reasons.

As far as his consciousness goes - he apparently didn't even have the basic understanding of class consciousness let alone socialist consciousness. If his anger led him to develop class consciousness then he would realize solidarity and organizing with other people is how the working class can fight back. Without that basic level of consciousness, he took his anger at the system out in an frustrated and individualistic way.

While I disagree that he, specifically, should be the kind of people we want to recruit, the anger he was feeling is also being felt by people who do have some level of working class consciousness and it's that anger we need to be tapping into. We need to tap into this anger with working-class solutions to the crisis so that other people becoming frustrated (with a system that is increasingly exposing itself as being only for the interests of the rich and powerful) turn that anger into class consciousness and solidarity and eventually into socialist consciousness.

To the people who say; "Well at least he is doing something...": that's just bullshit. If this kind of thing is doing "something" then you are just waiting for a savior to pull you over material reality (and pull you over the basic grunt-work of building a working class movement) to instant radicalism. Doing something is what our comrades involved in anti-budget cut work are doing; the people involved in public sector unions fighting against furloughs and lay-offs and union busting are doing something that can one day lead to a movement that can challenge the system.

People who are protesting budget cuts and fighting in unions are just as frustrated as this lone terrorist - but they are developing class consciousness and, as radicals, we need to be there with them to make our arguments and present our understanding of things and how to understand the ruling class, the system - and help them train themselves on how to fight for their rights and jobs, and ultimately how to win a far better world.

[RadioRaheem84]

The "leftist" part of his message, consisting of only the last two sentences:rolleyes:, sounded out of place with the rest of the anti-tax right-wing bullshit. Two sentences are enough for someone to be a communist, apparently.


The part that mentions communism was meant to be derogatory. He was mocking both communism and capitalism as flawed systems.

His screed was very anti-big business, anti-government, anti-tax, and anti-proletariat.

[The Red Next Door]

TBH i'm surprised not to see more of this happening, i guess people rather not look at their rapist. Yes i do agree he's probably not an all out Communist but it does help raise some of the points which the left try and bring to the surface.




"innocent government workers" that takes away from the workers and give it to the fat cats, sorry i have no empathy for them. To me they stopped being workers when they take form the workers like they do, they are just like the police they are the state not the workers. IRS have ruined people and their families, how am i suppose to think of them as the workers i must fight for?
How you suppose they feed their family? Due to the Fat bastards shipping all of the jobs overseas, so they can't get away with abusing and killing them, if they raise a fuss. Government jobs is the only thing, going trust me they probably be wanting to commit suicide over the stuff. They do

[Martin Blank]

I definitely side with people here who are saying that this guy, was in no way a real leftist. It's actually kinda scary that others are claiming he is on our side just because he was angry at corporations. We define politics based on whose interests are being represented, not surface issues: for example fascists, are against the Iraq war and big corporations and Zionism too... but they are also class enemies and against these things for totally different and totally fucked up reasons.

As far as his consciousness goes - he apparently didn't even have the basic understanding of class consciousness let alone socialist consciousness. If his anger led him to develop class consciousness then he would realize solidarity and organizing with other people is how the working class can fight back. Without that basic level of consciousness, he took his anger at the system out in an frustrated and individualistic way.

While I disagree that he, specifically, should be the kind of people we want to recruit, the anger he was feeling is also being felt by people who do have some level of working class consciousness and it's that anger we need to be tapping into. We need to tap into this anger with working-class solutions to the crisis so that other people becoming frustrated (with a system that is increasingly exposing itself as being only for the interests of the rich and powerful) turn that anger into class consciousness and solidarity and eventually into socialist consciousness.

To the people who say; "Well at least he is doing something...": that's just bullshit. If this kind of thing is doing "something" then you are just waiting for a savior to pull you over material reality (and pull you over the basic grunt-work of building a working class movement) to instant radicalism. Doing something is what our comrades involved in anti-budget cut work are doing; the people involved in public sector unions fighting against furloughs and lay-offs and union busting are doing something that can one day lead to a movement that can challenge the system.

People who are protesting budget cuts and fighting in unions are just as frustrated as this lone terrorist - but they are developing class consciousness and, as radicals, we need to be there with them to make our arguments and present our understanding of things and how to understand the ruling class, the system - and help them train themselves on how to fight for their rights and jobs, and ultimately how to win a far better world.

This is probably the most sensible and thought-out post so far -- and I'm including mine in that. While I might word some things differently, and place emphasis in some different areas, there's nothing here I disagree with.

[The Red Next Door]

What Apikoros said. He was an ego centric asshole who blamed anyone and everyone for his failings in the business world, except for himself. Instead of buring down his house he could have left it for someone else to live in.
Are kidding me, The guy is a selfish fuck and any leftist who idolize this mental fucks is beyond retarded.

[The Red Next Door]

Well, I was just watching CNN, & it's been confirmed that the wife & kid was not even in the house when it was burned down. They came home to find the house burning down. So I'm glad that this, what could've been a lie used against him & his actions, was resolved & proved false. Though, he did kill two people in the incident, but they are not releasing names, so right now I wonder if they were CIA. If so, then damn it, he's got my vote on that one! But if not, either way, his actions were justifiable to the extent that he's worked all his life, & yet has only been screwed over by the Corporate interests of capitalism. And so, whether as a communist or someone who supported the idea of communism, he decided to take a stand & deliver a message. His manifesto speaks clearly that his actions are of his own, & to end his suffering. But it's in his hopes that a message is brought in as well from it, & that is the capitalist system must be eliminated, & it must be through the acts of violence, even if that means violence upon yourself. Personally, as the people of Japan saw those that committed Kamikaze during ww2, I see Joseph Stack for what he did today. I don't look at him as the person he might've been, nor his past, but rather the message he gave through his manifesto & through his actions. That, I will always support.

R.I.P. Joseph Andrew Stack
This doesn't make us look good supporting a crazy ass dude, who couldn't live without being with the best money he had, which was his family, which he almost killed. When are people gonna learn that family and friends are the best money ever? Also money can be replace but not people.

[Communist]

>>...Doing something is what our comrades involved in anti-budget cut work are doing; the people involved in public sector unions fighting against furloughs and lay-offs and union busting are doing something that can one day lead to a movement that can challenge the system. People who are protesting budget cuts and fighting in unions are just as frustrated as this lone terrorist - but they are developing class consciousness and, as radicals, we need to be there with them to make our arguments and present our understanding of things and how to understand the ruling class, the system - and help them train themselves on how to fight for their rights and jobs, and ultimately how to win a far better world.<<

Absolutely. This is a fantastic post, one that reaffirms the purpose of the movement and what we as socialists need to keep foremost in our minds and apply. Should sticky thiat post actually, put it somewhere where it won't get lost. Thanks JH.

[cyu]

Isn't anyone concerned that right wingers will blow this out of proportion and accuse this man of being a communist terrorist?

I remember an instance that stuck in my mind when Sinn Féin handled a bombing in what I thought was a very good, strategic, and substantive way. They basically said something to the effect that they do not support attacks on the innocent, however, they do understand the frustration felt by those who carried out the attacks. Until the root of the disease is cured, the symptoms will never go away.

Statements like that are even easier for anarchists, since we don't claim to be able to control any other anarchist :lol:

[Red Commissar]

This is probably the most sensible and thought-out post so far -- and I'm including mine in that. While I might word some things differently, and place emphasis in some different areas, there's nothing here I disagree with.

Yeah, I agree with his post as well. I think we should be careful in claiming him as one of ours, because there's plenty of signs to show he wasn't.

[Sendo]

I am a little worried though what the repercussions for this will be in the States. This country is a fan of scapegoats

You know who else loves scapegoats? modern Russia (the Turks), Nazi Germany (the Jews), modern Western Europe (Muslims), the UK (immigrants from Western and southern Asia)..........

You get the idea. It's easy to rag on the USA for being the bottom of the barrel in so many ways when ranked with the First World, but America is not exceptional for this, not by a long shot.

[JacobVardy]

Perhaps i should have been clearer. I do not support him or his action. I don't think anyone else here does either. I just find it ideologically impossible to categorically denounce this guy.

Also, being a small business owner does not prevent one being a communist. I'm thinking of Engels here. Owning a small plane might but then again Engels justified his fox hunting frolics by claiming it as cavalry training. So maybe Joe Stack was training for the Tex Red Army air militia?

[Wolf Larson]

>>...Doing something is what our comrades involved in anti-budget cut work are doing; the people involved in public sector unions fighting against furloughs and lay-offs and union busting are doing something that can one day lead to a movement that can challenge the system. People who are protesting budget cuts and fighting in unions are just as frustrated as this lone terrorist - but they are developing class consciousness and, as radicals, we need to be there with them to make our arguments and present our understanding of things and how to understand the ruling class, the system - and help them train themselves on how to fight for their rights and jobs, and ultimately how to win a far better world.<<

Absolutely. This is a fantastic post, one that reaffirms the purpose of the movement and what we as socialists need to keep foremost in our minds and apply. Should sticky thiat post actually, put it somewhere where it won't get lost. Thanks JH.



Agree.

[Comrade B]

You know who else loves scapegoats? modern Russia (the Turks), Nazi Germany (the Jews), modern Western Europe (Muslims), the UK (immigrants from Western and southern Asia)..........

You get the idea. It's easy to rag on the USA for being the bottom of the barrel in so many ways when ranked with the First World, but America is not exceptional for this, not by a long shot.
You entirely missed the point of the post.
What happens to the scape goats in
modern Russia (the Turks), Nazi Germany (the Jews), modern Western Europe (Muslims), the UK (immigrants from Western and southern Asia)..........

I am not saying that the US worse. I was simply worried about the first reaction inside the US

[Jimmie Higgins]

Perhaps i should have been clearer. I do not support him or his action. I don't think anyone else here does either. I just find it ideologically impossible to categorically denounce this guy.I think we can say that this kind of anger is sort of an expected result of 30 years of attacks by the ruling class on living standards for most regular Americans. Adding to the anger and the right-wing populism is that the ideological justification for the attacks on unions and social welfare and so on has been a neoliberal mantra of... low taxes, trickle down, what's good for business is no government and what's good for business is good for workers.

The right wing (population, not the establishment) has been fed this world view for a generation and now suddenly the government has pulled the rug out and exposed that this ideology is a sham and that the government is totally happy to economically intervene and deficit-spend when it comes to wars and corporate interests and bailing out banks.

So I think it's fair to say that this guy's anger is understandable and should be expected... it's sort of a right-wing anti-tax/anti-government chickens coming home to roost. The ruling class wants to promote an anti-social spending/anti-corporate taxes mentality, but also wants to push the tax burden from corporations onto the same population that it is trying to sell the "cut taxes" line to... what the fuck did they think would happen if they let this right-wing populist genie out of the bottle?

It's actually surprising to me that there have not been as many right-wing nuts or that we have yet to see large-scale urban riots... but maybe that's a preview for this summer. My prediction is that long-hot summers will be the result of working class anger at the high unemployment; racism of the right wing; increases of police forces while all other municipal services are being cut; and a general sense of social immobility. There was already a lot of anger in the US, and the economic crisis is a pressure cooker.

[LeninistKing]

He was right !! he is a hero of the poor oppressed americans, coz to tell you the truth, taxes in USA are fucking fascists. Food-taxes in America are so evil, that when i go to shop for 10 dollars of food, i gotta have an extra 1 dollar just for taxes, coz food-taxes around here are 10%. Fuck this country with so many taxes

.



He was anti tax and anti corporatism. I've been watching CNN all day and no one is calling it a terrorist attack. Perhaps because he isn't a muslim? Oh god now they're talking about tiger woods are you serious? They talked about the underwear bomber for an entire day.

[The Douche]

He was right !! he is a hero of the poor oppressed americans, coz to tell you the truth, taxes in USA are fucking fascists. Food-taxes in America are so evil, that when i go to shop for 10 dollars of food, i gotta have an extra 1 dollar just for taxes, coz food-taxes around here are 10%. Fuck this country with so many taxes

.



:laugh:

The taxes, are, fascists.



I love this guy...

[Robocommie]

:laugh:

The taxes, are, fascists.



I love this guy...

It's almost like the Realultimatepower of fucking socialism, innit?

[Tablo]

Yeah, I have pretty much made 180 in my opinion of him. He is a petty-bourgeois business owner that just couldn't handle the oh so tough life of business(lol). He is a martyr for the free-market libertarian retards. I hope he is happy for killing working class Americans in his attack.

[The Vegan Marxist]

Yeah, I have pretty much made 180 in my opinion of him. He is a petty-bourgeois business owner that just couldn't handle the oh so tough life of business(lol). He is a martyr for the free-market libertarian retards. I hope he is happy for killing working class Americans in his attack.

No offense, but how can you consider the IRS workers people like us who are of the working class & not hurting nor exploiting other workers? Because, to be honest, I don't give a fuck what happens to them because they are not rising up over their job nor realizing the harm they are doing to other proletarians in the country. So fuck the IRS.

[Klaatu]

He is a martyr for the free-market libertarian retards.
:laugh:

[Dimentio]

:laugh:

The taxes, are, fascists.



I love this guy...

Yes, I could truly see that papers are fascists :lol:

[The Douche]

No offense, but how can you consider the IRS workers people like us who are of the working class & not hurting nor exploiting other workers? Because, to be honest, I don't give a fuck what happens to them because they are not rising up over their job nor realizing the harm they are doing to other proletarians in the country. So fuck the IRS.

How come you're not "rising up" over your privileged status as a male? Or that of the citizen of a first world country?

Is that your conception of communism? Writing off all workers who don't have a revolutionary consciousness? If they aren't communists, then fuck em, let somebody kill them?

Its absurd, people need to eat, the government offers good job security and good benefits, I would like to get a job for the government.

[The Vegan Marxist]

How come you're not "rising up" over your privileged status as a male? Or that of the citizen of a first world country?

Is that your conception of communism? Writing off all workers who don't have a revolutionary consciousness? If they aren't communists, then fuck em, let somebody kill them?

Its absurd, people need to eat, the government offers good job security and good benefits, I would like to get a job for the government.

Out of every worker out there, I have yet to see IRS workers do anything from striking or anything. We're coming close to a revolution here & we're going to have to gain as many workers as possible. When it comes down to the revolution, are they still going to be workers to you if they don't follow us & stay within the grasps of the Federal Government?

[The Douche]

Out of every worker out there, I have yet to see IRS workers do anything from striking or anything. We're coming close to a revolution here & we're going to have to gain as many workers as possible. When it comes down to the revolution, are they still going to be workers to you if they don't follow us & stay within the grasps of the Federal Government?

The IRS doesn't go on strike? So they should die? Cool bro.



Close to a revolution? What fucking world do you live in?

[The Vegan Marxist]

The IRS doesn't go on strike? So they should die? Cool bro.



Close to a revolution? What fucking world do you live in?

Maybe not a violent revolution, but a revolution where workers start taking control. We've got so many workers taking action world-wide, & I think it's saying something when schools are being taken over by the students in California.

And I don't want them to die, & I would love for them to come on our side, but I just don't have much respect for them right now because they choose to do nothing.

[bcbm]

And I don't want them to die, & I would love for them to come on our side, but I just don't have much respect for them right now because they choose to do nothing.

to choose they would need to have knowledge of their choices. i think for many people there is no concept of possibilities outside of our civilization, least of all communist possibilities.

[The Vegan Marxist]

to choose they would need to have knowledge of their choices. i think for many people there is no concept of possibilities outside of our civilization, least of all communist possibilities.

Alright, I'll give you that one. Then how do you recommend for us to help disillusion the minds of IRS workers without throwing planes at them? I believe that's an effective way of showing that people are pissed at the IRS & the federal government & the workers might get a little kick in the balls (a better understanding), but other than that, that's it, so of course there's more we'd need to do, so what exactly should we do?

[bcbm]

Alright, I'll give you that one. Then how do you recommend for us to help disillusion the minds of IRS workers without throwing planes at them? I believe that's an effective way of showing that people are pissed at the IRS & the federal government & the workers might get a little kick in the balls (a better understanding), but other than that, that's it, so of course there's more we'd need to do, so what exactly should we do?

talk to them. and perhaps avoid saying you think throwing planes at them is effective.

[eyedrop]

Out of every worker out there, I have yet to see IRS workers do anything from striking or anything. We're coming close to a revolution here & we're going to have to gain as many workers as possible. When it comes down to the revolution, are they still going to be workers to you if they don't follow us & stay within the grasps of the Federal Government?

Plenty of IRS (skatteetaten) workers stroked here (http://www.delta.no/Lonn+og+arbeid/Tariff/Tariff+2009/Staten/2086.cms) last year and in 2006 Ghanesian IRS (http://www.delta.no/Lonn+og+arbeid/Tariff/Tariff+2009/Staten/2086.cms) workers stroked. If the US class struggle intensifies I'm sure you would see more militants IRS workers. They do have a low degree of class struggle these days but I'm sure plenty of other sectors have that as well, you can't really write off large segments of workers because they aren't militant now.

As far as I'm aware you are not anywhere close to near the class consciousness necessary for a revolution today, or anywhere near a revolution.

[The Douche]

Maybe not a violent revolution, but a revolution where workers start taking control. We've got so many workers taking action world-wide, & I think it's saying something when schools are being taken over by the students in California.

And I don't want them to die, & I would love for them to come on our side, but I just don't have much respect for them right now because they choose to do nothing.

No we are not getting close to any sort of revolution in this country. Workers are taking action in some places, but where are they taking action in the US? Where are the strikes, sit ins, walk outs, and occupations here?

And schools aren't being "taken over" in California. Its an exciting struggle and I have good friends involved in it, but its not like its making connections to the community/workers outside of school. They're just occupying buildings to let administrators/the community know they disapprove of the budget cuts/privitisation. You think that a few dozen occupied colleges means there is a revolution coming?


but I just don't have much respect for them right now because they choose to do nothing.

What should they be doing? Why do you expect them to do it? What are you doing to help them?

[The Vegan Marxist]

I think 'eyedrop' helped the most. From all that I knew, I had never heard any news on IRS workers taking a stand. I'll take back what I said & will look into this some more.

[eyedrop]

There was also some dispute about 1400-1600 lay-offs in the American IRS in 1997 from what I can find.

http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1P2-715408.html (Some Washington Post article I can't see all off.)

You do also have a National Treasury Employees Union which I got no idea what is.

Unfortunately it is hard to do any google searches without beeing bogged down by the kamicaze dude and rants about how the small businesses have to pay too much taxes.

[Tifosi]

I'll by-pass all these tax posts:)

What comes to mind is that guy who wanted to kill Reagan, made a film about him but can't remember the name. Tryed to hijack a plane but crapped his pants and had a gun fight before it took off.

He might have had the right idea but the way he went about it is not to helpful to anti-capitalist's that don't want to die. In today's world terrorism is the big word. CNN won't show this guy in a good light, they will keep scaring people. This will put a few people off, the old bomb throwing Anarchist. This is something we need to tackle. He is an idiot as he didn't seem to sit down and think about better ways to go about things.


I hope he is happy for killing working class Americans in his attack.

[The Douche]

I'll by-pass all these tax posts:)

What comes to mind is that guy who wanted to kill Reagan, made a film about him but can't remember the name. Tryed to hijack a plane but crapped his pants and had a gun fight before it took off.

He might have had the right idea but the way he went about it is not to helpful to anti-capitalist's that don't want to die. In today's world terrorism is the big word. CNN won't show this guy in a good light, they will keep scaring people. This will put a few people off, the old bomb throwing Anarchist. This is something we need to tackle. He is an idiot as he didn't seem to sit down and think about better ways to go about things.

He didn't seem to sit down and think about some better politics either...

[Dimentio]

I'll by-pass all these tax posts:)

What comes to mind is that guy who wanted to kill Reagan, made a film about him but can't remember the name. Tryed to hijack a plane but crapped his pants and had a gun fight before it took off.

He might have had the right idea but the way he went about it is not to helpful to anti-capitalist's that don't want to die. In today's world terrorism is the big word. CNN won't show this guy in a good light, they will keep scaring people. This will put a few people off, the old bomb throwing Anarchist. This is something we need to tackle. He is an idiot as he didn't seem to sit down and think about better ways to go about things.

The guy who wanted to kill Reagan wanted it because he believed that would impress on Jodie Foster.