Kim Jong Il...b-day

[CELMX]

North Korea has celebrated the 68th birthday of Kim Jong-il, the country's "Dear Leader" with an extravagant display of gun salutes, swimming displays and flower parades.


By Malcolm Moore in Shanghai
Published: 12:12PM GMT 16 Feb 2010



The celebrations took place at a time of enormous uncertainty in North Korea. Kim is in poor health and economic problems sparked the first protests the state has seen.
A move to revalue the currency last year, knocking two zeroes off the end of each bank note, apparently caused civil unrest in some parts of the country, especially following the poor harvest.


In Pyongyang, state-run media lauded Kim as "the most outstanding political elder" and a "peerlessly brilliant commander".
In front of an audience of unnamed foreign dignitaries, North Korean synchronised swimmers "depicted beautiful frost flowers" with martial music spurring them on.
Afterwards, the Social Youth League sang: "Thunder over Jong Il Peak."
Children across the impoverished nation received bags of sweets and biscuits, and there was even a festival that paraded the national "Kimjongilia" flower.
However, analysts continued to fret about Kim's health and about who will succeed him as leader.
Although Kim appears to have recovered from a suspected stroke in 2008, North Korean officials do not expect him to live longer than another five years, according to Cheong Seong-chang, an analyst at the South Korean Sejong Institute, a think tank.
Mr Cheong said that Kim regularly undergoes kidney dialysis due to complications from diabetes, and that he suffers from depression and is psychologically unstable, sometimes shedding tears in front of his bodyguards.
Kim is thought to have nominated his son Kim Jong-un, his third son, as his successor. However, North Korean media called on the people to trust the older Kim "to the end" as the country struggles with its deepening economic woes.
This week, Pyongyang heralded an investment deal that will see China, its closest ally, build over £6 billion of new roads, ports and houses in the rogue state.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECxuD0RFO0A

Just wondering, what are your opinions of Kim Jong Il? Reactionary, revolutionary?
Obviously, as an anarchist, Kim Jong Il is definitely reactionary, and just slightly better than Stalin. He's much too oppressive, and hides many facts from North Korean citizens.

[Uppercut]

just slightly better than Stalin


He's much "worse" than Stalin. At least in the USSR, secret ballots and universal voting rights were granted to all citizens in the 1936 Constitution. And Stalin wasn't hesitant to criticize the NKVD for unjust arrests.

http://clogic.eserver.org/2005/furr.html

As I see it, North Korea is currently a fascist state. Their newer constitution even removed all acknowledgment of communism.
The people starve, nothing grows in the countryside, and if you complain, you go to the prison camp. I haven't found anything positive about North Korea and Kim-jong il.

At least his father knew what he was doing, for the most part. For years, NK's economy was better than the South's. But it seems Kim Jong-il has no intentions of reviving it.

[CELMX]

[QUOTE=Uppercut;1674960]
http://clogic.eserver.org/2005/furr.html

As I see it, North Korea is currently a fascist state. TQUOTE]

I think calling DPRK a fascist state is taking it a little bit too far.
Just b/c N. Korea is oppressive, and highly authoritarian, does NOT mean it is fascist.
Fascist, by definition, is a society founded on inequality, usually manifesting itself in the form of racism, sexism, and classist.
In DPRK, I believe that there is NO form of racism, sexism, etc. and that inequalities only exist between party members and citizens, similar to Stalinist russia.

HAve you not taken into consideration the mass genocides that occured during Stalin's era?! This, at least, does not occur in N. Korea on a regular basis.

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

With any luck, it'll be his last...

[The Red Next Door]

Praise our lord and Saviour Kim Jong Il who died on the cross just to give communism a bad name and portraying the lies about socialism. Seriously the citizens need a mental hospital to give them a wake up called about there dear leader.

[Axle]

With any luck, it'll be his last...

If he really does have pancreatic cancer, he probably won't make it to summer.

But then what? Kim Jong-Un takes the big seat and nothing changes.

[Klashnekov]

As I see it, North Korea is currently a fascist state. Their newer constitution even removed all acknowledgment of communism.
The people starve, nothing grows in the countryside, and if you complain, you go to the prison camp. I haven't found anything positive about North Korea and Kim-jong il.

At least his father knew what he was doing, for the most part. For years, NK's economy was better than the South's. But it seems Kim Jong-il has no intentions of reviving it.

How do you know all this infomation? I've personally spoken to people from North Korea and they were shocked to see homeless people on the streets, let alone people starving and getting thrown into prison camps for "complaining".

[the last donut of the night]

With any luck, it'll be his last...

He'll probably be replaced by someone else anyways.

[Cooler Reds Will Prevail]

How do you know all this infomation? I've personally spoken to people from North Korea and they were shocked to see homeless people on the streets, let alone people starving and getting thrown into prison camps for "complaining".

Can you rephrase that? Homeless people where?

[Chambered Word]

He's much "worse" than Stalin. At least in the USSR, secret ballots and universal voting rights were granted to all citizens in the 1936 Constitution. And Stalin wasn't hesitant to criticize the NKVD for unjust arrests.

These rights certainly weren't exercised. And to give him credit for criticizing the NKVD for what he deemed 'unjust' arrests is a bit too optimistic if you catch my drift.

Still, you have a point. He certainly is worse at being socialist than Stalin.

[al8]

To the original poster and to people in agreement with him/her; Have you ever stopped to think if you are not just all just parroting bourgeois propaganda?

Why do you distrust the capitalist media but then when it comes to this independent former colony you copy the blood-lust of your domestic ruling-class to re-dominate it for markets, cheap labor and resources? The media engages in tap water journalism and you engage by extension in tap water capitalism advocacy.

Do you people perhaps also sneer at the mannerisms of the poor or homeless because they do not ware the latest fashion clothes or have the same articulate academic stance on dialectics? It seems to me to be a very similar thing to sneer at the cultural conventions of a recently independent colony made through the struggle of socialist revolutionaries. How much dose it really matter if they have a strong leader worship or ware neat 60's style clothing. Surely, if it helps with cohesion when the country is put in a tight spot by an alliance of violent, imperialist, murderous, unscrupulous, power hungry plunderers and thugs known as the UN, U.S and its other associated filthy disgusting running dogs - it's okay to have some symbols to unite around.

DPRK has a strong military and puts it's military first because it's still in a war - they get sanctioned fx. (which is an act of war). Millions of soldiers under U.S army command are at their borders. U.S army and allies host provocative military exercises around and sometimes into DPRK territory. U.S army and allies have invaded Korea before and holds half of the country. DPRK has had to endure such horrible, disgusting and vile bombing campaigns by U.S army I have difficulty describing it. But I've heard it expressed that north Koreans have had to endure a 9/11 on every street corner. So of course there is a strong state structure with strong military emphasis in response. Fucking duh.

[Uppercut]

[QUOTE=Uppercut;1674960]

HAve you not taken into consideration the mass genocides that occured during Stalin's era?!

You mean the Holodomor? That wasn't exactly Stalin's fault. When collectivization hit the Ukraine, the Kulaks (who the peasants were dependent on for food) burned their crops and killed their livestock.
The ordinary peasants embraced collectivization, on the contrary. They desperately needed food.

But I'm not going to start a massive argument in this thread. It happens all too often, IMO.

[CELMX]

To the original poster and to people in agreement with him/her; Have you ever stopped to think if you are not just all just parroting bourgeois propaganda?


From what I have heard and seen, the condition in N. Korea is not going so hot, and there has been virtually no improvement. The "socialist" phase in DPRK is definitely not getting any closer to the actual goal, probably farther away, and most likely either Kim Jong Il would be replaced by some dumbshit like Gorbachev that would destroy socialism in DPRK or a leader just as tyrannical as Kim.
I understand the Koreans suffered a lot, but does that mean they deserve even less freedom?
al8, could you give some sources to support your opinion of Kim Jong Il?
Just a question, not trying to sound reactionary and all, but is an oppressive state like DPRK really better than a capitalist republic?

and, Woland, I am not a fascist, I am just questioning if the DPRK's "socialist" state is beneficial or not.

[Robocommie]

If he really does have pancreatic cancer, he probably won't make it to summer.

But then what? Kim Jong-Un takes the big seat and nothing changes.

Well, technically there will be a change. North Korea will become the world's first "communist" monarchy.

[Uppercut]

Well, technically there will be a change. North Korea will become the world's first "communist" monarchy.

I think they already are.
Does anybody know if Kim Jong-il was voted in, or was he appointed beforehand by his father?

[al8]

From what I have heard and seen, the condition in N. Korea is not going so hot, and there has been virtually no improvement. The "socialist" phase in DPRK is definitely not getting any closer to the actual goal, probably farther away, and most likely either Kim Jong Il would be replaced by some dumbshit like Gorbachev that would destroy socialism in DPRK or a leader just as tyrannical as Kim.

It wouldn't make any difference, or sense, in regards to U.S hostility towards the broad north Koreans populace if the country turned conciliatory and fully capitalist. It would still be in the lower rung of capitalist states as an underdog or competitor. Thieves can still steal from thieves.

And this isn't so much about personhood. Just as most of most of the work regarding concert organizing is not done by Madonna or Brittney Spiers, but by concert organizers, light technicians, truck drivers etc. The same holds with the DPRK, there is an entire party system, popular involvement, commissions, diplomats, generals and all hosts of other people shaping the course of the DPRK.


I understand the Koreans suffered a lot, but does that mean they deserve even less freedom?

I'm not exactly sure in what meaning you are using the word freedom here. But capitalist media vilification tends to use this word a lot and somehow how DPRK citizens lack it. It usually means that rich people should have the freedom to do as they please, move around as much as they like, exploit whomever they want, and buy media outlets.


al8, could you give some sources to support your opinion of Kim Jong Il?

I've seen his fan-page, but that is secondary. :) My admiration is for DPRK as a whole. It's robust defence, it's brilliant, fair and level-headed conduct of the 6 party talks. It's quick recovery from both natural disaster and loss of foreign trade partners. There are many things and sources that have cumulatively proven to me that the DPRK conducts itself well from where its at and has it's priorities straight. I will try to gather some interesting articles to this thread later tonight or tomorrow.


Just a question, not trying to sound reactionary and all, but is an oppressive state like DPRK really better than a capitalist republic?

Maybe not as a core capitalist country in terms of material wealth. But a capitalist state under the similar conditions as DPRK would probably be something like the capitalist state of Haiti. So yes, it is much better and more robust than a capitalist state.

[Axle]

Well, technically there will be a change. North Korea will become the world's first "communist" monarchy.

It became that in '94.

[Invincible Summer]

My feelings are mixed on the DPRK: although I support defense of it from imperialism and believe that lots of criticisms are simply Eurocentric, cappie biased bullshit (e.g. "They're not like the West, so fuck 'em! They're fucked up for not being like us with 500 brands of mayo!") I do think that King Jong-Il has too much power and his role as "Dear Leader" is unhealthy for the population.

Albeit, the people seem happy enough. Who's to say that's wrong then?

[Os Cangaceiros]

I'm not exactly sure in what meaning you are using the word freedom here. But capitalist media vilification tends to use this word a lot and somehow how DPRK citizens lack it. It usually means that rich people should have the freedom to do as they please, move around as much as they like, exploit whomever they want, and buy media outlets

My concern is for my class and my class only. North Korea as a military dictatorship does not put the working class at the forefront of it's society, nor does it even see the working class as playing the key role in the revolution, a fact that singlehandedly excludes N. Korea from being classified as a Marxist/socialist state, at least as far as ideology is concerned.

But don't take it from me or "bourgeois sources"...what say you, Kim Jong Il?



The People's Army is the main force of our revolution and the core force of our national defence. In our Songun politics, military affairs are given top priority and enhancing the People's Army is the key element.

[Robespierre2.0]

ITT: The left wing of imperialism.

If the DPRK is fascist, then you can consider me one as well.
Every country has its imperfections, but for some reason, people hold the DPRK, a nation under blockade, bullied by the great powers, to much higher standards than anyone else, because they're 'brainwashed asians'.

Fuck that. You think the DPRK has personality cult? Look at American politics. Every single politician constantly gives sloppy verbal blowjobs to the 'founding fathers', a bunch of wealthy white guys who died centuries ago.
If you want to fight totalitarian boogeymen so bad, why don't you join the US army and go get blown up in Afghanistan?

[Os Cangaceiros]

ITT: The left wing of imperialism.

If the DPRK is fascist, then you can consider me one as well.
Every country has its imperfections, but for some reason, people hold the DPRK, a nation under blockade, bullied by the great powers, to much higher standards than anyone else, because they're 'brainwashed asians'.

Fuck that. You think the DPRK has personality cult? Look at American politics. Every single politician constantly gives sloppy verbal blowjobs to the 'founding fathers', a bunch of wealthy white guys who died centuries ago.
If you want to fight totalitarian boogeymen so bad, why don't you join the US army and go get blown up in Afghanistan?

No one said that the N. Koreans were "brainwashed Asians".

Please don't engage in meaningless vitriol. If you have something constructive to say about the N. Korean state, then I'd be glad to hear it. But if your only response to those (such as myself) who feel that the regime in N. Korea is filled with reactionary tools is to say that we should "go get blown up in Afghanistan"...well, that's very silly.

The reason people critique the DPRK constantly is because they're held up as an example of "socialist tyranny" by the Western media. If one does not believe the DPRK to be socialist, then one should make that clear. I realize that a nuanced view of the situation there is in order, but the so-called anti-imperialists who go to bat for the state there constantly while shuffling aside all criticisms as byproducts of "bourgeois media" (as if all stories about N. Korea are manufactured wholesale in a boardroom somewhere by evil capitalists) are presenting no more of a nuanced view than those who rail against the regime without taking into account the impact of external influences.

[RED DAVE]

Does anyone here think that the DPRK has anything to do with socialism?

RED DAVE

[Wanted Man]

Happy birthday, Kim.

[Vendetta]

Who really gives a damn?