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robbo203
17th February 2010, 10:04
Worlds apart: socialism in Marx and in early Bolshevism

http://libcom.org/library/socialism-marx-early-bolshevism-chattopadhyay


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Paresh Chattopadhyay's article on Marx and the divergence of the Bolsheviks from his conception of socialism.



A Provisional Overview
This paper is concerned with socialism purely as a theoretical category, leaving aside the historical movements and acts that have occurred in its name. "Early Bolshevism" refers to Bolshevism before Stalin's consolidation of power. Marx's notion of post-capitalist society - "communism", "socialism", "society of free and associated producers" - envisaged a society that has left behind all the vehicles of exploitation and oppression of the old society, such as state, commodity production, money, wage labour, to name the principal ones. This is contrasted with the notion of socialism as it appears in the writings of the early Bolsheviks - Lenin, Trotsky, Bukharin and Preobrazhensky. It turns out that the socialism emerging from the works of these avowed "Marxists" is the exact opposite of the socialism one finds in Marx's extant texts.
Paresh Chattopadhyay
Socialism or communism, conceived theoretically, was considered by Marx (and Engels) as simply the theoretical expression of the workers' struggle against capital towards their own emancipation. The present paper, however, is concerned with socialism purely as a theoretical category, leaving aside the historical movements and acts that have occurred in its name. "Early Bolshevism" refers to Bolshevism before Stalin's consolidation of power, that is, Bolshevism, which still appears in a most favourable light to the majority of the so-called "Marxist" left. Basically we are concerned with the important relevant writings of arguably the four best-known representatives of Bolshevism of the period: Lenin, Trotsky, Bukharin and Preobrazhensky. This paper is simply a rapid overview of the theme.
I
Marx
In brief, Marx's perspective of the society after capital, that is, socialism or communism (same in Marx) is immensely emancipatory. This is what he calls the "union of free individuals", based on the "associated mode of production". As opposed both to the forcible union of the producers with their conditions of production (as in pre-capitalism) and to the non-voluntary separation between the two (as in capitalism), socialism signifies reunion of the producers with their conditions of production at a higher level (compared to their union on a narrow basis within a limited circle in "primitive communism").
A socialist or communist society is the outcome of the workers' self-emancipatory revolution against capital, not to be confused with the so-called seizure of power by the working class, far less the seizure of power by a group in its name. This is not a momentary but an "epochal" event comprising a whole "period of revolutionary transformation" during which the bourgeois mode of production and, along with it, the whole bourgeois social order with wage labour, commodity production and state are superseded. The workers' installation of (their own) power is only the "first step" in this "long and painful" trajectory.1 On the other hand, the necessary material conditions of the rise of the future society are created within capitalism by capital itself, and without these conditions any attempt at exploding the existing society would be only Don Quixotic, as Marx wrote in his 1850s manuscripts.2
In all hitherto existing societies community has in fact stood as an independent power against singular individuals and subjugated them. It was, as Marx calls it, a "false" or "illusory" community. In the "union of free individuals" for the first time there arises the "true" community where universally developed individuals dominate their own social relations. Individuals in the new society are free in a sense unknown hitherto. Going beyond "personal dependence" of pre-capitalism as well as "material dependence" of capitalism, "social individuals" attain their "free individuality" in this union of free individuals.3 It is, as Marx calls it, a "complete elaboration of the human interiority", and "the development of human energy as an end in itself".4 In the "associated mode of production" (AMP), as Marx designates the new mode of production, there is voluntary and unmediated union of individuals dominating their own products as well as unconstrained union of producing individuals with their conditions of production. As a result commodity production as well as the wage system go out of existence.
In the AMP along with the transformation of the old relations of production there is also the transformation of ownership relations, which are only the juridical expression of the social relations of production. All hitherto existing class societies have been marked by private ownership of the means of production where "private ownership" signifies non-ownership of the means of production by society's majority. This is what Marx calls "private ownership of a part of society" or "class ownership".5 This class ownership under capital appears as separation of the producers from the means of production (this is unique to capitalist society). This signifies of course the separation of the great majority of society from the means of production. Now this capitalist private ownership could take different forms: ownership by private individuals, ownership by what Marx calls "associated capitalists" or ownership by the state.6 However, private ownership in question remains invariant with respect to these different forms. Capitalist class ownership under its different forms disappears only with the disappearance of the capitalist production relations yielding place to direct collective appropriation of the conditions of production by society itself.
We must not consider state ownership of the conditions of production as equivalent to social appropriation of the conditions of production, inasmuch as state exists - whatever its nature -only as an institution which has autonomised itself from society. Real (as opposed to juridically enacted) appropriation by society itself (that is, the collective body of producers) can take place only with the disappearance of the state. It is quite relevant to recall here Marx's high praise for the 1871 communards for having made the revolution against state as such, not this or that kind of state.
We come to exchange relations of the Association. With the transformation of society's production relations, its exchange relations - that is both individuals' exchanges with nature and individuals' social exchanges among themselves - are also transformed. As regards the first, in the new society, freed from the mad drive for accumulation - production for production's sake as Marx calls it - of the old society and with the unique goal of satisfying human needs, the socialised individuals rationally regulate their material exchanges with nature with the least expenditure of force and carry on these exchanges in the conditions most worth of and in fullest conformity with their human nature.7
Coming to exchange relations among individuals, first let us note that in any society the labour of the individual producers creating useful objects for one another has, by that very fact, a social character. However, in a society of generalised commodity production, where products result from private labours executed in reciprocal independence, the social character of these labours - hence the reciprocal relations of the creators of these products - are not established directly. Their social character is mediated by exchange of products taking commodity form. The social relations of individuals take the form of social relations of their products, confronting the producing individuals as an independent power, dominating them.
With the inauguration of the Association there begins the process of collective appropriation of the conditions of production by society, as noted earlier. And with the end of private appropriation of the conditions of production there also ends the need for the products of individual labour to go through exchange taking the commodity form. In the new society individual labour is directly social from the beginning. In place of exchange of products taking the commodity form (as in the old society) there is now "free exchange of activities" among "social individuals" determined by their collective needs and aims on the basis of collective appropriation. In the Association, in contrast with the capitalist society, the social character of production is presupposed, and participation in the world of products is not mediated by the exchange of reciprocally independent labours or of products of labours.8 Here the labour of the individual is posited as social labour from the outset. In a well-known text, which needs reemphasising, Marx asserts that in the "communist society as it has just come out of capitalist society" that is, in its very "first phase" the producers "do not exchange their products and as little does labour applied on these products appear as value".9
Turning to distribution in the Association, the basic distribution in any society is the distribution of the conditions of production from which follows the distribution of the products of these conditions. Now, the "distribution of the conditions of production is a character of the mode of production itself".10 Hence with the transformation of the capitalist mode of production (CMP) into the associated mode of production (AMP), the old mode of distribution is also transformed. Now, for any society, the distribution of the conditions of production really boils down to the allocation of society's total labour time (including dead and living labour) across the economy in definite proportions corresponding to its needs. Equally, society's total time employed on production (including related activities) has to be economised in order to leave maximum non-labour time for the enjoyment and self-development of society's members. "All economy", indeed, is "finally reduced to the economy of time".11 However different societies execute the economy of time and the allocation of labour time to different spheres of activities in different ways. Under capitalism the allocation of society's labour time is effected through the exchange of products taking the commodity form, but in the Association the problem is solved through direct and conscious control of society over its labour time without the need for social relations of persons to appear as social relations between things.12
The economy of society's global time employed in material production (and related activities), generating disposable time thereby, acquires a new meaning in the Association. This surplus labour time beyond the time required for labourers' material needs, instead of being appropriated by a small minority in the name of society now becomes society's free time for creating the basis of all-round development of the "socialised individuals". The distinction between necessary and surplus labour time loses its earlier meaning. Necessary labour time would now be measured in terms of the needs of the associated individuals not the needs of valorisation and remain the creative substance of wealth. But as Marx emphasises in one of his early 1860s manuscripts, the free time, disposable time, is the wealth itself - in part for enjoying the products, in part for "free activity which, unlike labour, is not determined by the compulsion of an external finality which has to be fulfilled whose fulfillment being either a natural necessity or a social obligation".13
Turning to the distribution of the total social product in the "Republic of Labour", it is first divided between the production needs and the (direct) consumption needs of society. As regards the share for production needs, it is divided again between replacement and extension of society's productive apparatus on the one hand and society's insurance and reserve funds (not in value form) against uncertainty on the other. The rest of the social product serves collective consumption - health, education, provision for those not able to work - and personal consumption. As regards the mode of the distribution of the means of personal consumption among society's labouring individuals, these latter, having ceased to sell their labour power, no longer receive the returns to their labour in wage form. Instead, they receive from their own Association some kind of a token indicating each one's labour contribution to production (including related activities) enabling the person to draw from the common stock of means of consumption an amount costing the same amount of labour. Given the disappearance of commodity production, these tokens are not money; they do not circulate.14
This principle of equivalent exchange, apparently parallel to, but not the same as, what prevails under commodity production, since "form and content" have both changed, cannot be avoided at the very initial stage of the Association just coming out of the womb of capital. This process is wholly overcome only at a higher stage of the Association when all the springs of cooperative wealth flow more fully based on the all round development of the socialised individuals along with the development of the forces of production. Only at that stage can the principle of equivalent exchange yield its place to a new principle: "from each according to one's ability to each according to one's needs".15
II
(Early) Bolshevism
From Marx's notion of the post-capitalist society - appearing in Marx's texts in equivalent terms such as "communism", "socialism", "Republic of Labour", "Union of free individuals", "cooperative society", "society of free and associated producers", etc - envisaged as a society which has left behind all the vehicles of oppression and exploitation of the human of the old society, such as state, commodity production, money, wage labour, to name the principal ones, let us pass on to the notion of socialism as it appears in the writings of the early Bolsheviks, all of whom, it is necessary to stress, considered themselves as the followers of Marx. We deal successively with Lenin, Trotsky, Bukharin and Preobrazhensky. The treatment will be necessarily brief.
Lenin
Totally unlike Marx, Lenin makes a distinction between socialism and communism equating them, respectively with the first and the second phase of communism (following Marx, Lenin could have as well distinguished between the first and the second phase of socialism). Corresponding to this distinction Lenin distinguishes between two transitions - the first from capitalism to socialism, the second from socialism to communism. Naturally, this distinction, too, nowhere appears in Marx. The distinctions in question, apparently merely terminological and innocent looking, had far reaching consequences, which were far from innocent. These became convenient instruments for legitimising and justifying the ideology and every act of the Party-State from 1917 onwards in the name of (building) socialism, which was stressed as the need for the immediate future, and thus shelving all the vital aspects of Marx's immense emancipatory project of the post capitalist society off to the Greek calends of the never-never land of communism, thereby metamorphosing Marx's project of socialism (communism) into an unalloyed utopia.
Lenin conceives socialism basically in terms of ownership form of the means of production rather than in terms of the (social) relations of production. And he posits 'social ownership' of the means of production (in socialism) against capitalism's private ownership uniquely in the sense of "private ownership of separate individuals".16 Here again Lenin is several steps backward compared to Marx. For Marx juridical relations (forms) have no independent existence, they simply arise from the economic, that is, production relations. In other words it is the production (economic) relations which determine the ownership relations and their specific forms, not inversely. Secondly, Marx had already shown on the basis of his close observation of capitalism's development how its forms of ownership changed in response to the needs of capital accumulation. The ownership form of which Lenin speaks was indeed the initial form in capitalism, directly taken over from the Roman law. However, in the course of capital's development the requirements of capital's accumulation dictated a change in the ownership form from individual to collective capitalist ownership, which signified "abolition of private ownership within the capitalist mode of production itself", as Marx clearly noted. The relevant texts of Marx were already available quite some time before Lenin wrote his text from which our citation comes. Lenin's concept of private ownership was of course the dominant concept in the Second International "Marxism" taken over from bourgeois jurisprudence. Similarly, social ownership in Lenin (for socialism) does not mean society's ownership that is, direct appropriation by society itself. It is rather state ownership where the state is by supposition a working class state.17 This identification of state ownership with ownership by the whole society is, again, absent from Marx's texts. Indeed, far from social ownership being identical with (working class) state ownership, socialism - even in its Leninist identification with Marx's lower phase of communism - excludes not only individual private ownership of the means of production but also (working class) state ownership, inasmuch as the first phase of the Association arrives on the historical scene only at the end of the transformation period coinciding with the end of the proletariat and its political rule ("state" if you like). The mode of appropriation becomes for the first time directly social. This is the real social ownership that Marx envisages.
As regards exchange relations in socialism, Lenin's position is not without ambiguities. In some writings he speaks of "suppression" of commodity production with the end of capitalism,18 while in other writings he speaks of "socialist exchange of products" and denies the commodity character of state factory products "exchanged" against peasants' products.19 We know from Marx that in the very first phase of the Association (Lenin's "socialism"), "producers do not exchange their products". We also know that exchange of products is replaced in the new society by the "free exchange" of "activities".
The scope of distribution in the new society is very narrow in Lenin. He is far and away from the range of Marx's preoccupation in this regard. He is not concerned with the allocation of productive resources among different branches of activity nor with the corresponding problem of the best way to allocate society's total labour time or with the division of this time between necessary (labour) time and free time for the associated producers with far reaching emancipatory consequences. Lenin is almost exclusively concerned with the distribution of the means of consumption among the society's individuals. Here he follows literally Marx's "Marginal Notes" (1875) discussed above. At the same time Lenin takes liberty with Marx's text. Referring to what Marx calls (remaining) "bourgeois right" in the lower phase of the Association (Lenin's "socialism"), Lenin envisages equality of "labour and wage" for the citizens, now transformed into "hired employees of the state" (sluzhashchikh po naimu) where, further, the enforcement of "bourgeois right" would, according to him, necessitate the presence of the "bourgeois" state.20 This is indeed a strange reading of Marx's text with serious implications. First, the transformation of the producing citizens into hired employees of the state receiving wage as remuneration would simply mean that the citizens instead of being wage labourers of private enterprises, are now wage labourers of the state (calling the state a workers' state does not change the character of citizens' labour as wage labour). In the same text that Lenin (mis-) reads, Marx denounces the wage system as a "system of slavery". In fact the distribution of the means of consumption through labour tokens has nothing to do with their distribution through wage remuneration. As regards hired labour, let us recall that in his famous Inaugural Address to the International, Marx opposes "hired labour" to "associated labour". In fact Marx had already called the "state...employing productive wage labour" "capitalist".
Continuing with the problem of distribution of the means of consumption in socialism (Marx's lower phase of the Association) Lenin refers to the not yet superseded "bourgeois right" (Marx) in this connection and insists on the need of the existence of "bourgeois state" to enforce this right. This latter is Lenin's own gloss and is nowhere to be found in Marx's extant texts. In fact the antagonistic relation between state and freedom (essence of the "union of free individuals") was a constant in Marx at least beginning with his polemic with Ruge right up to his last theoretical writing (also a polemic). But why should in any case the enforcement of "bourgeois right" require a state, and that, too, a "bourgeois state" in a society which arises only after the last form of political power held by the proletariat has evaporated along with the proletariat itself after a long revolutionary transformation period! Even with the "bourgeois right" remaining Marx envisages society itself, not any special political apparatus, undertaking the task of distributing the means of consumption in the very first phase of the Association. Even when Marx speculates on what kind of transformation will the state form (Staatswesen) undergo in communism, he immediately adds the meaning of this speculation: which social functions will be left there that are analogous to the present day state functions. First note that this speculation about the future of state functions applies to communism as such, not simply to its first phase, which is Lenin's concern in the context of "bourgeois state" enforcing the "bourgeois right".
This speculation about the analogy of present day state functions for communism no more signifies the existence of state in communism (at any stage) than the parallelism with equality of commodity exchange for distribution in the lower stage of communism signifies the existence of commodity production in the first stage of the Association (as many readers of Marx think). Indeed, Lenin's logic is baffling. Inasmuch as the lower phase is inaugurated only after the transformation period when after it has destroyed the bourgeois state the proletariat disappears along with its own "state", the existence of a bourgeois state in this phase would signify, in the absence of the bourgeoisie (Lenin's assumption)), that the (non proletarian) workers would themselves recreate the bourgeois state after having liquidated their own.
Trotsky
Trotsky's approach to socialism is predominantly juridical. In order to establish socialism the principal task is to win the fight against private capital, which means abolishing "individual ownership" of the means of production. With the most important industries in the hands of the workers' state, class exploitation ceases to exist taking capitalism along with it. However Trotsky at the same time affirms that the struggle between "state capital and private capital" continues, the abolition of capitalism through the elimination of individual ownership of a means of production notwithstanding.21
For Trotsky capitalism is a system of private (individual) ownership in the means of production and market regulation of the economy. Consequently socialist economy appears as a centralised, directed economy in which a general plan would establish the allocation of society's material means of production and (living) labour among different branches of the economy. In other words, a socialist economy is a planned "state economy" where planning would mean abolition of the market.22
Thus Trotsky's image of socialism directly follows from his specific concept of capitalism. Inasmuch as capitalism is conceived primarily in terms of a specific ownership form and a specific form of circulation, and not (primarily) in terms of specificity of the social relation of production, socialism is also envisaged simply as the abolition of those forms of ownership and circulation. Thus socialism appears as (proletarian) state ownership of the means of production with central planning, and not as a "union of free individuals" based on social appropriation as opposed to private ownership in both its basic forms, individual and collective (including state) ownership. What is important for Trotsky is what he calls the "class nature" of the state. If the state is in the hands of the working class - clearly substituted by party - then, despite the presence of commodity categories and wage labour, there is no exploitation and thus no capitalism, although the latter's "forms" still persist.23 That by socialism Trotsky is far from meaning a "union of free individuals" is also clear from the way he envisages the organisation of labour and its allocation across the different branches of the economy of the new society. This organisation and this allocation are not effected directly by society itself as in Marx; on the contrary, they are done by the state through its central(ised) planning. The whole process involves workers' subordination to the state and state's coercive power over the workers. Confronted by the Mensheviks, Trotsky, in one of his writings concedes that "there will be no state and no coercive apparatus in a socialist regime".24
Bukharin
Bukharin's point of departure for analysing the transition period is "state capitalism" - reached by capitalism in its latter day "organised" capitalism - which is supposed to have already eliminated the market along with anarchy of production, giving rise to what he calls "a new type of production relations". After distinguishing socialism from communism he makes the transitional system the repository of some of the basic characteristics of Marx's "lower phase of communism". In this transitional system with the proletarian nationalisation of the means of production there arises the "state form of socialism" and the process of creating surplus value ceases.25 Bukharin denies the relevance of Marxian categories of capitalism for the transitional society. According to him, to the extent that "conscious social order" replaces "spontaneity", the commodity is turned into a product together with the collapse of the monetary system. Hence there is no value or price; profit (surplus value) disappears. As mentioned earlier, already under state capitalism commodity tends to disappear "within the country" though the anarchy of production is reproduced in the world at large.26 The substance of this argument, we know, later reappears among the theorists of "state capitalism" in Stalinist Russia.
Not without contradicting himself Bukharin holds that when under a (proletarian) state economy the products of labour continue to be exchanged in their price form prices are simply explained away as purely formal, without value content. In the same way, as regards labourers' remuneration under proletarian dictatorship, which appears as wage the latter according to Bukharin, is really a "phenomenal magnitude" or an "outer shell" in monetary form without any "content".27 Bukharin seems not to be aware that if there is no wage form of remuneration there is no wage labour that is, there is no proletariat and, consequently, no proletarian dictatorship. Hence there is no need for a revolutionary transformation period between capitalism and socialism. A change in the ownership form and state form is sufficient for Bukharin to wish away wage labour and thereby the capitalist mode of production. Bukharin in fact continually confuses the transition period with what Marx calls the "lower phase of communist society". He does this by inverting the materialist method. That is, he first makes production relations a derivative of ownership relations - which in Marx's terms are simply the "juridical expression" of production relations. Even here he does not distinguish between ownership relation and ownership form; secondly, private ownership for him means only individual private ownership, excluding what Marx considers as collective (class) ownership; thirdly, he identifies state ownership with social ownership and hence state ownership for him signifies abolition of private ownership. Bukharin's position on socialism and transition to socialism could, without much difficulty, be explained in terms of an attempt at rationalising the policies pursued by the new regime of which he was one of the leaders and to which he was ideologically committed. However, in a text relatively free from the need of such rationalisation, penned on the occasion of the 50th anniversary of Marx's death, and Bukharin's last discussion on socialism, he clearly distinguishes between socialism and transition to socialism. Dealing with socialism in the Leninist (non Marxian) sense of the "lower phase of communism" he enumerates its six basic characteristics: (1) less than full development of the productive forces, (2) non-suppression of the difference between mental and physical labour, (3) distribution according to labour, not need, (4) continuation of the residue of "bourgeois right" (5) residues of hierarchy, subordination and state, (6) absence of commodity character of labour's product.28 Needless to add, the fifth characteristic given here finds no place in Marx's text.
It is clear that though there is an improvement in Bukharin's latter position compared to his earlier one, still in common with what we find in the writings of his distinguished colleagues, we do not find any explicit affirmation that socialism, even understood in Lenin's specific sense of the lower phase of communism, is already a "union of free individuals", without any authority, state or otherwise, outside of what is freely self imposed by the associated producers.
Preobrazhensky
Preobrazhensky, in his principal work, designated as "economic theory of the USSR", considers the "soviet" economy as a "socialist-commodity" economy with a commodity sector and a state sector (identified as socialist sector). In this economy there are two regulators - law of value and the principle of planning. The fundamental tendency of the latter takes the form of "primitive socialist accumulation" (PSA). The two regulators operate in a relation of antagonism. The law of value operates "spontaneously" in the unorganised (non-state) economy, while within the organised (state) sector - where the state is the monopoly producer and the unique buyer of its own products - the law of value ceases to operate. In its turn PSA signifies accumulation of material resources in the hands of the state, drawn from sources external to the state economy. PSA operates through the "exploitation of pre-socialist forms" by the socialist (that is, state system) of economy. This is how PSA strives to eliminate the law of value.29
Preobrazhensky distinguishes between PSA and SA, the socialist accumulation, that is, extended reproduction of the means of production and labour power on the basis of surplus product created within the socialist, that is, the state sector. The principal mechanism of the "exploitation of the pre-socialist forms" by the proletarian state is the transfer of this surplus product from agriculture to (nationalised) industry by way of non-equivalent exchange.
Like Bukharin before him, Preobrazhensky also denies the relevance of the categories of Capital for the "socialist-commodity economy", since these categories are valid only for the capitalist-commodity economy. Thus, for Preobrazhensky, within the planned economy of the USSR there is really no commodity production. Prices used in inter-trust transactions have only a "purely formal character". Commodity categories really exist only in the transactions of the state sector with the private sector. By the same reasoning the value form of the surplus product and the wage form of labour remuneration arising from the economic operations within the state sector are made to disappear.30 (Stalin would later take over these ideas).
It should be clear that Preobrazhensky's ideas about the new society logically follow from his two fundamental assumptions: first, the identity of social ownership and (proletarian, that is communist party ruled) state ownership and, second, the identity of socialist economy with (proletarian, that is communist party ruled) state economy. Thus confounding the ownership form and production relation, Preobrazhensky could speak of the "socialist relations of production of the state economy" of the USSR. For Preobrazhensky the period that the transitional economy will take before capitalism is changed into socialism is exactly the period that the transitional economy will take to nationalise the principal means of production. The only problem remaining after this near-complete "stateisation" would be the development of the productive forces.
The reasons given by Preobrazhensky to deny the commodity-character to labour power and the products of labour in general within the state sector of the "socialist-commodity" economy are basically the same as those proffered earlier by Trotsky and Bukharin. These involve a number of assumptions - explicit or implicit. First, determination of society's production relations by ownership relations; secondly, equating the capitalist ownership relation to a particular ownership form, namely individual private ownership; thirdly, identifying the substitution of private individual ownership by (proletarian, that is communist party ruled) state ownership with the abolition of capitalism itself along with its fundamental categories leaving only its contentless forms. The categories such as prices and wages really disappear simply because they cease to behave "spontaneously" and are regulated by central planning, far removed from the direct domination by the immediate producers. This is a complete inversion of Marx's (and Engels's) "new materialism".
III
Conclusion
One could safely conclude that the socialism that emerges from the works of these avowed "Marxists" turns out to be the exact opposite of the socialism which one finds in Marx's extant texts. Two central points of this Bolshevized socialism - ultimately rooted in the Lassalle-Kautsky tradition of the Second International - are first, an amalgam of state and society where the state under the communist party rule - passing for a proletarian state - subordinates society and, secondly, the idea that ownership relations determine production relations and that the juridical abolition of a specific form of capitalist ownership, that is, private individual ownership of the means of production signifies the abolition of capitalism itself, even if its value and wage categories persist - explained away as mere "forms" without exploitative content.
In other words, the Bolshevised socialism is a state under the absolute rule of the communist party, passing for a proletarian state, owning the means of production under the appellation of "public ownership" and employing wage labour whose products take the commodity form. Needless to stress, this statist socialism based on wage slavery is the exact antipode of Marx's immensely emancipatory socialism conceived as a "union of free individuals" without private ownership of either variety - individual or collective - without state, without commodity production and without wage labour, which springs naturally from the "womb" of capital itself. These avowed disciples of Marx have indeed quasi-successfully turned his human-emancipatory post-capitalist project into a pure utopia.
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Notes
[An earlier version of the paper was presented to the annual conference of Historical Materialism in London in early November 2005. A different version of the paper is forthcoming in Hungarian translation in the Budapest journal Eszmelet. We are grateful to N Krishnaji for his encouragement.]
1 Marx 1966, pp 76, 186; 1987, 110.
2 Marx 1953, p 77.
3 1953, pp 75, 593; 1987 p 109; 1932, p 536.
4 1953, p 387; 1973a, p 536; 1992, p 838.
5 1966, p 73; 1956, p 21; 1992, p 843.
6 1973b, pp 101, 236; 1992, p 502.
7 1992, p 838.
8 1953, pp 77, 88.
9 1966, p 178.
10 900; 1966, p 180.
11 1953, p 89.
12 See Marx's letters to Engels and Kugelmann, January 8 and 11, 1868.
13 1953, pp 595-96; 1962, pp 255-56.
14 1987, p 109; 1966, pp 177-78; 1973b, p 358.
15 1966, pp 179-80.
16 Lenin 1982a, pp 300, 302.
17 1982b, pp 711, 712, 714, 716.
18 1962, p 151; 1963, p 121.
19 1964, pp 275-76.
20 1982a, pp 302, 306, 307-08.
21 Trotsky 1963, p 187; 1972, pp 239, 245; 1984, p 226.
22 1984, pp 220-22, 229.
23 1963, pp 256-58; 1972, pp 233, 245, 271-72. For an interesting discussion see Bongiovanni 1975, pp 179-80.
24 1963, p 254.
25 Bukharin 1970, pp 72, 116, 119.
26 1970, pp 16, 33.
27 1970, p 145.
28 1989, p 417.
29 Preobrazhensky 1926, pp 62-63, 72, 94, 122, 152, 154.
30 1926, pp 160, 182, 212, 220.
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- (1962): 'Marxism O Gosudarstve' ('Marxism on the State') (Lenin's Preparatory Work for State and Revolution, 1917) in PSS, Vol 33, Moscow.
- (1963): 'Proekt Programmyi RKP (b) (Draft Programme of RCP (b)) in PSS, Vol 38.
- (1964): 'Nakaz Ot STO*....' ('Instructions of the CLD*....') in PSS Vol 43 (*Sovieta truda i oboronyi, Council of Labour and Defence).
- (1982a): Gosudarstvo I Revoliutsia (the State and Revolution) in Izbrannye Proizvedeniya (selected works), Vol 2, Moscow.
- (1982b): O Kooperatsii in Izbrannye Proizvedeniya (selected works), Vol 3, Moscow.
Marx, K (1932): 'Aus den Exzerptheften: Oekonomische Studien' in Mega I.3, Marx-Engels, Verlag, Berlin.
- (1953): Grundrisse der Kritik Der Politischen Oekonomie, Dietz Verlag, Berlin.
- (1956): Theorien ueber den Mehrwert, Vol 1, Dietz, Berlin.
- (1962): Theorien ueber den Mehrwert, Vol 3, Dietz, Berlin.
- (1966): Manifest der Kommunistischen Partei (with F Engels) (pp 59-87) and randglossen zum Programm der deutschen Arbeiterpartei, pp 174-90 in Marx-Engels Studienausgabe, Vol 3, Fischer, Frankfurt Am Main.
- (1973a): Oekonomisch-philosophische Manuskripte in Karl Marx-Friedrich Engels Werke, Erganzungsband, Dietz, Berlin.
- (1973b): Das Kapital, Vol 2, Dietz, Berlin.
- (1987): Das Kapital, Vol 1 in MegaII 6, Dietz, Berlin.
- (1992): Oekonomische Manuskripte (1863-1867) in MegaII 4, Dietz, Berlin.
Preobrazhensky, E (1926): iIzdatelst'vo Kommunisticheskoi Akademii, Moscow.
Trotsky, L (1963): Terrorisme et Communisme, Union Generale D'editions, Paris.
- (1972): First Five Years of the Communist International, Vol 2, Monad Press, New York.
- (1984): Textes, Editions Sociales, Paris.

ZeroNowhere
17th February 2010, 11:21
It's a good article, one I recently linked to myself, but probably if you're going to post it, you should add a few line breaks in order to make it less messy.

red cat
17th February 2010, 11:53
How do we know that the version of history ( from which is conclusionds later follow) provided by the author is correct ?

What if we conclude that without Bolshevism the working class cannot hold on to power more than a few months ?

ComradeOm
17th February 2010, 12:22
"This paper is concerned with socialism purely as a theoretical category..."

At least the article is honest on that point. Unfortunately for the author neither Marxism nor 'Bolshevism' can be considered solely as theoretical or intellectual constructs. Neither were intended as mere academic exercises and to reduce them to such is to render the very idea of socialism (having divorced it from all context) nothing but a collection of sterile and empty phrases

If you do want to compare quotes then I'd suggest that the Theory forum is a better place for that

[Still, I do laugh at the irony of upbraiding the Bolsheviks for being rooted in the "Lassalle-Kautsky tradition" while simultaneously criticising them for not being faithful to Marx's sacred texts :laugh:]

Hit The North
17th February 2010, 12:47
Firstly, thanks to robbo203 for posting this interesting article.

Secondly, it has more theoretical than historical import, so I'm moving it to Theory.

robbo203
17th February 2010, 14:10
Bob the Builder


Thanks for that. I wasn't quite sure which category to place the article in


How do we know that the version of history ( from which is conclusionds later follow) provided by the author is correct ?

What if we conclude that without Bolshevism the working class cannot hold on to power more than a few months ?

Well in view of the fate that befell the factory committees under the Lenin government we can probably quite safely come to quite the opposite conclusion!

ZeroNowhere
17th February 2010, 14:14
[Still, I do laugh at the irony of upbraiding the Bolsheviks for being rooted in the "Lassalle-Kautsky tradition" while simultaneously criticising them for not being faithful to Marx's sacred texts http://www.revleft.com/vb/../../revleft/smilies2/lol.gif] Whenever I hear religious comparisons used as slurs on Revleft, I release the safety catch of my Browning.

Anyhow, the point being made was that the bolshies differed from the views of Marx concerning socialism. It's quite obvious that the author advocates Marx's view, and indeed the main reason for the article is because the two are often confused (including by the bolsheviks), but how the hell you would get from this to, "Marx's view was right because Marx advocated it" (the point of the holy text comparison, unless it was done for the purpose of making its poster look inane for whatever reason, perhaps as part of an infiltration mission to make themselves look like not being much of a threat, so that they can go off to their Hitler shrines while others think that they're just having trouble finding the way to where they wish to go, y'know, "Sorry, I was trying to go to the toilet, but I ended up in Trafalgar Square by accident. Yeah, the return flight was delayed, so it took a while to get back, sorry about that." "That's ridiculous, but so was that seemingly earnest religious comparison slur they made earlier, so I suppose I shall trust them here." "Mein Fuhrer, I can get away with anything! Sorry, slip of the tongue." "Excused." And so on, until everybody dies in a nuclear holocaust), is rather hard to see. They are mostly not putting forth an argument for socialism in this article, and as such they aren't putting forth the argument that Marx was right because he was Marx, they're putting forth the case that Marx's conception of socialism, which they share, for various reasons (indeed, they mention it being 'immensely emancipatory', which should be enough to disprove the contention that they're advocating it because Marx advocated it), is distinct from those of the Bolsheviks. As such, it should be treated as separate, rather than being equated to those of the Bolsheviks, as it often is.


At least the article is honest on that point. Unfortunately for the author neither Marxism nor 'Bolshevism' can be considered solely as theoretical or intellectual constructs. Neither were intended as mere academic exercises and to reduce them to such is to render the very idea of socialism (having divorced it from all context) nothing but a collection of sterile and empty phrasesHe wasn't calling either academic exercises.


Well in view of the fate that befell the factory committees under the Lenin government we can probably quite safely come to quite the opposite conclusion!Given that this is in the theory board, I don't think it's worth moving the discussion off-topic into something already been gone over a couple hundred times in the History board. Especially given that Chattopadhyay has already written a substantial (and pretty great) book on the history and nature of the Soviet Union.

Anyway, the following article, also by Chattopadhyay, is related, so I figure it's worth posting. Incidentally, it also clarifies what was meant by 'purely theoretical', and the citations would seem to clarify why Chattopadhyay thinks this comparison important to make.

Economic Content of Socialism in Lenin: Is It the Same as in Marx?

In the following lines we propose to discuss critically how Lenin conceived of socialism as a new form of society and to what extent his concept of socialism could be considered Marxian. As the title of the paper indicates, we shall be concerned here basically with the economic content of socialism considered purely as a theoretical category. It should be emphasised that we are not concerned here with the (practical) policies Lenin pursued, before or after October 1917, towards the realisation of socialism. Ours is an exercise in pure theory.
In what follows, Section I summarises Lenin's main ideas on socialism's economic content, Section II examines these ideas in the light of Marx's writings on the subject, while Section III concludes the paper.

I

The discussion of socialism considered as a specific economic-social formation does not figure much in Lenin's writings as a theoretical category before 1917. Even then it is difficult to accept the statement of a contemporary Hungarian economist that "prior to the 1917 socialist revolution Lenin made only sporadic allusions to the pattern of the socialist economy".(1) True, beginning with the Bolshevik seizure of political power in October 1917, the problem of building a socialist economy in his country increasingly preoccupied Lenin's mind. However, while this preoccupation concerned socialism's implementation in practice, Lenin's most comprehensive discussion of socialism as a purely theoretical category—particularly with respect to its economic content—antedates the October seizure of power and is found mainly in the famous pamphlet The State and Revolution, unfinished though its composition was. On the other hand, in Lenin's post-October writings there appear important theoretical formulations on socialism. Here we shall be trying to touch upon what we consider to be Lenin's most significant writings on the socialist economy, before and after October 1917, and we shall be paying particular attention to the relevant discussion in The State and Revolution.

Lenin makes a distinction between socialism and communism as well as identifies socialism with what is already, according to Marx, the "first phase of communism". Thus he holds that "from capitalism mankind can pass directly only to socialism" and that "socialism must inevitably grow...gradually into communism".(2) Similarly, after posing the question, "what is communism and what distinguishes it from socialism?", he answers that communism is a "higher social form" compared to socialism, the latter being the "first form of the new society".(3) On the other hand, Lenin explicitly identifies 'socialism' with Marx's "first phase of communism",(4) while referring, at the same time, to the "scientific distinction between socialism and communism".(5) Consistently with the latter argument he speaks of two distinct "transitions", one "from capitalism to socialism" and the other "from socialism to
communism".(6)

Coming to socialism itself, Lenin conceives it as a system of "social ownership of the means of production and the distribution of products according to the measure of each one's labour".(7) By "social ownership of the means of production" or, alternatively, "the common ownership of the whole of society over the means of production",(8) Lenin means—negatively speaking—the abolition of "private ownership of the means of. production",(9) where, again, by "private ownership" he means "private ownership of separate persons (otdel'nykh lits)".(10) In socialism "the means of production have ceased to be the private ownership of separate persons, the means of production belong to the whole society".(11) Positively speaking, "social ownership of the means of production" signifies for Lenin "the means of production belonging to the working class state power", or "the ownership of the means of production being in the hands of the (working class) state", as he puts it in one of his articles.(12) He calls the enterprises as being of "consequent socialist type" when these, including the land on which these are situated, "belong to the (working class) state".(13)

Continuing on the transformation of the property form, Lenin observes that under socialism, since "it will be impossible to usurp the means of production and turn them into private property, the exploitation of individual by individual will be impossible".(14)

As regards the distribution relations in socialism—understood as Marx's "first phase of communism"—Lenin, paraphrasing Marx's 'Marginal Notes' of 1875, observes that "every member of society, performing a certain part of the socially-necessary labour, receives from society a certificate to the effect that he/she has done a certain amount of labour". Then, "after a deduction is made of the amount of labour going to the public fund" every labourer receives, against the certificate, a corresponding amount of products from the public store of consumer goods and thus "receives from society as much as he/she has given to it". Following Marx textually, Lenin points out that this "equal right" of the labourer, being an application of an equal measure to different people, in fact implies inequality and hence does not cross the "narrow horizon of bourgeois right". Lenin infers that this "bourgeois right" in socialism necessitates the presence of the "bourgeois state" to enforce it, of course "without the bourgeoisie".(15)

Lenin further observes, referring to the "first phase of communism", that since communism cannot yet be entirely free from traditions or vestiges of capitalism, there will be (in its first phase) "equality of all members of society (only) in relation to ownership of the means of production, that is, equality of labour and wages".(16) But somewhat differently, in the first phase of the communist society "all citizens are transformed into hired employees of the state...that is, a single country-wide state syndicate...with equality of labour and pay". (17)

Finally, as regards exchange relations, Lenin excludes commodity production from socialism. The end of capitalism would signify for him "the elimination of commodity production",(18) and in the new social order "organised and state-wide distribution of products" is to be "substituted for commerce".(19) In the same way the Party Programme adopted in 1919 under his direct guidance emphasises the need for "applying measures for extending accounting without money and for preparing the elimination of money".(20)

Now Lenin's position that we have cited here—namely, the incompatibility of socialism with commodity production—refers to his texts composed before the start of the 'New Economic Policy' (NEP) (in 1921). There is a fairly widespread view that this position changed in his writings beginning with NEP, and that in these writings Lenin emphasised commodity production's compatibility with, if not its necessity under, socialism.(21) This view, we submit, is not quite correct.

What changed in Lenin's perspective in the period after the so-called 'War Communism' was not his basic position on commodity production in relation to socialism but rather the way he envisaged such production in relation to the transition to socialism. Indeed, as can be seen from Lenin's writings and speeches after the period of 'War Communism', his sole preoccupation during the last years of his life is with the specific problems of arriving at socialism—in the absence of proletarian revolutions in western Europe—in the situation of Russia's backward economy marked strongly by traits of pre-capitalism.

Lenin admits earlier policy mistakes of the Bolshevik leadership in this regard. "We", he writes on the fourth anniversary of October, "reckoned on establishing—directly commanded by the proletarian state—the state production and distribution of products on communist lines in a small-peasant country. Life has shown our mistake." Now he realises that in a "small-peasant country" (like Russia) socialism has to be reached "by way of state capitalism"—"led" by the "wholesale merchant".(22) Lenin asks the party, in the "contemporary transitional economy from capitalism to socialism",(23) to "grasp trade as the link...in the transitional forms of [our] socialist contribution...to create the foundation for socialist social-economic relations".(24) When Lenin says that "commodity exchange with the peasantry" forms "the economic foundation of socialism",(25) he seems to mean that commodity production and exchange are the elements not of socialism itself but they serve as "mediating links" for the "transition from patriarchalism and small production to socialism",(26) as "firm footbridges to socialism through state capitalism".(27) On the contrary, "the socialist exchange of products", Lenin emphasises, "are not commodities in the politico-economic sense of the term".(28)

When, in one of his last compositions, Lenin asserts that "there has been a radical change in our whole point of view on socialism", this "change" has little to do with Lenin's basic position on commodity production in the future society. This "change" rather refers to the new emphasis on the "growth of co-operation" and the necessity of "cultural revolution'—away from the earlier preoccupation with the "winning of political power"—for "an advance to socialism" (pereiti K sotsializmu) requiring a "whole historical epoch".(29)

II

A

Earlier we referred to the distinction between socialism and communism made by Lenin as well as his identification of socialism with the "first phase of communism". These are Lenin's own contributions and not Marx's. Marx uses the terms 'socialism' and 'communism' at different places indifferently and equivalently—without making any distinction between them—as well as other equivalent terms such as 'union', 'association' or 'society of producers' to designate the new economic-social formation based on what he calls the "associated mode of production"(30) that is to succeed the older one based on the capitalist mode of production.

Marx's non-distinction between 'socialism and 'communism' follows naturally from his three-phase periodisation of the evolution of human society based on the relation between the producers and their conditions of production: "original union", "separation" and "restoration of the original union in a new historical form"(31) where, as it should be clear, the third phase refers to the "society of free and associated producers" succeeding "separation". (Almost two decades earlier, Marx had equivalently written about "three social forms" of human development: "personal dependence", "personal independence based on material dependence" and "free individuality based on the universal development of the individuals and the domination of their common, social productivity as their social power",(32) the last one, again, obviously referring to socialism or communism.) When Marx, in his 'Marginal Notes' of 1875, speaks of a "lower" and a "higher" phase in relation to the future society, he is not referring to two societies based on two different modes of production but is referring to a single society passing through two historical phases, just as he refers to the "formal" and "real" subsumption of labour under capital as two distinct phases through which a single society—the capitalist society, based on the labourers' separation from the conditions of production—passes. In this sense Marx could as well speak of a "lower" and a "higher" phase of the 'socialist' society.(33) Indeed, in his "Encyclopaedia" article on 'Karl Marx', written on the eve of the first world war, Lenin, scrupulously following Marx, does not make any distinction between socialism and communism and, in an entire section devoted to the future society, speaks exclusively of "socialism".(34)

It should be stressed that the period leading from capitalism to the establishment of the "republican system of the association of free and equal producers"—as the Resolution of the First Congress of the First International (drafted by Marx) put it—is justly called by Marx the "political transition period" corresponding to the absolute political role of the proletariat,(35) it has still not transformed the capitalist mode of production.(36) The commonly held idea of socialism as the transition between capitalism and communism has no basis in Marx's texts.(37)

B

As regards the socialist society itself— assuming with Lenin that it is the same as Marx's "first phase of communism"— Lenin's position on the absence of commodity production in socialism—that we touched on earlier—seems to be in basic agreement with Marx's (our paper not being on Marx as such, we cannot here go far into the question of commodity production vis-ΰ-vis socialism as envisaged by Marx.) We simply refer here to two relevant texts of Marx composed at two different periods. "The necessity of transforming the product or the activity of the individuals into exchange value", reads the first and earlier text, "proves that the production of the individuals is...not the offspring of association which distributes the [social] labour within itself...Here the individuals are subsumed under social production which exists outside of them like a fatality. Nothing, therefore, is more absurd than to suppose the control of the associated individuals over their production on the basis of exchange value."(38) The second text written two decades later refers specifically to the "communist society as it has just come out [hervargeht] of the capitalist society"—in other words, the society designated by Lenin as "socialist"—and asserts that here "the producers do not exchange their products [tauschen ihre Produkte nicht ans] [and] as little does the labour employed on these products appear as value".(39)

However, let us note that Lenin's position on this question is not completely free from ambiguities. Though he maintains that "socialist exchange of products" is "not commodities"—as we saw above—at least in one place he nevertheless identifies "socialist exchange" with "a [certain] type of commodity exchange (toveroobmen)" and then distinguishes it from "ordinary purchase and sale, trade".(40)

As regards the social product's distribution in socialism—understood as Marx's "first phase of communism"—Lenin broadly follows Marx's basic principle of the distribution of means of consumption among society's members—after the necessary deduction for the common funds has been made—based on the quantum of labour contributed by each member to the total social labour.

On the other hand, unlike Marx, Lenin hardly envisages the new society as a society of "free and associated producers" based on the "associated mode of production". Approaching the question basically through the framework of property, Lenin, however, conceives socialism not in terms of a specific "property relations" in the sense of Marx— that is, "judicial expression" of a specific relation of production(41) — but in terms of a specific property form, that is, state property, by negating the "private property of separate persons". Secondly, for Lenin the negation of (individual) private ownership in the means of production leading to (proletarian) state ownership is equivalent to "social ownership" of the means of production which in its turn signifies, at the same time, the end of "exploitation of person by person", as we noted earlier. On both these counts Lenin, we submit, considerably narrows the Marxian framework. Let us elaborate our submission in the following sub-section.

C

Marx points out that production is simply the "appropriation" of nature by individuals "through labour"; it is "property over objectified labour". Thus "what appears as a real process is recognised as a judicial relation".(42) In this sense, property relations are simply a "juridical expression" of production relations, they only "reflect" the (real) economic relations which are their "content".(43) But within the same property relation—corresponding to a specific relation of production—there can be different property forms, as Marx shows particularly with reference to capitalism. Thus under the capitalist property relation, individual private property over the means of production— "private property of separate persons", as Lenin would call it—is not the only form of property, though, historically, it is the starting point through the expropriation of the immediate producers. In course of its development, capitalist production reaches a stage where the exigencies of accumulation are such that capital has to be 'freed' from individual private property and transformed into the property of the "associated capitalists", thereby inaugurating "directly social capital", of course, "with all its contradictions".(44)

The first form of 'capitalist collective' Marx discerns in share capital—showing the separation between ownership of the means of production and the process of production itself— where "within the capitalist mode of production itself" there occurs the "abolition (sublimation) of private property in the means of production".(45) A second form of 'capitalist collective'—with capitalists as only the "functionaries of capital" and not its individual owners—is represented by the "state itself" as a "capitalist producer [with] its product as a commodity" through its "employment of productive wage labour".(46) On the other hand, at a particular stage of capital accumulation, the "centralisation of capital would reach the last limit...where the total national capital would constitute only a single capital in the hands of a single capitalist", as Marx notes in the French version of Capital (vol I).(47) This "single capitalist", we might add, could very well be the state, given the existence of the state as a capitalist. Thereby capital would attain its complete 'liberation' from all constraints of individual private property. However, capital as a specific property relation—"reflecting" its production relation—remains invariant under these different (and changing) property forms of capital. In other words, from a Marxian perspective, even in the complete absence of "private property" in the means of production in its Leninist sense, capitalism could continue to exist. (In his discussion of what he calls "monopoly capitalism" in his Imperialism (ch III) Lenin does refer to the separation of ownership in capital from its "application" in production, but curiously does not even refer to Marx's revolutionary conclusion reached in this connection on the irrelevance of individual private property in the means of production for the existence of capital).(48)

On the other hand, "capitalist private property" has another and more profound meaning in Marx (and Engels) which does not figure in Lenin's discussion. Here "private property" is the same as class property which could subsume individual as well as collective capitalist property. As Marx puts it, it is the "private property of a part of society",(49) here the "means of production are monopolised by a distinct part of society".(50) Thus when the Communist Manifesto declares that the communist can sum up their theory in a single expression: 'abolition of private property', the latter is expressly used in the sense of the "disappearance of class property" (Aufhφren des Klasseneigentums.)(51) In the same vein Marx writes almost two and a half decades later: "The Commune, they exclaim, intends to abolish property, the basis of all civilisation! Yes, gentlemen, the Commune intends to abolish class property, which makes the labour of the many the wealth of the few!"(52) It is evident that Marx here makes the abolition of capitalism conditional upon the abolition of "capitalist private property" not in the mere sense of individual private property. In this fundamental sense "capitalist private property" is identical with its opposite, that is, labourers' non property (in the means of production) and, entirely coinciding with capitalist property relation, continues to exist as long as capitalist production exists, even when the latter has eliminated private property in the means of production in the sense of Lenin.

We noted earlier Lenin's contention that the abolition of individual private property in the means of production is equivalent to the "common ownership" by society over the means of production, the latter being, in its turn, equivalent to the "ownership of the means of production" by the "working class state". Here, again, the Marxian position is not the same. True, Marx too speaks of "common means of production",(53) or "common ownership in the means of production".(54) But unlike Lenin, Marx does not equate it either with the abolition of private property of "separate individuals" in the means of production or with the (proletarian) state ownership in the means of production. Let us take up these two points.

We argued above that according to Marx the elimination of individual private property in the means of production does not have to wait for the socialist revolution. It is already accomplished by capital itself in course of its accumulation. Naturally "capitalist private property" in the fundamental Marxian sense of capitalist class property—irrespective of the specific forms it assumes—cannot, by definition, be abolished by capital and is eliminated along with capital by the socialist revolution. Marx's "common ownership" in the means of production refers to the abolition of capitalist ownership only in the latter sense. It is in this sense, as the Communist Manifesto asserts, that "the communist revolution [the same as the socialist revolution] is the most radical break with the traditional property relation", where, as we saw above, "property relations" are simply" the juridical way of expressing the production relations.

Marx's "social" or "common ownership", secondly, refers to the "real appropriation of the means of production, their subjugation by the associated working class (unter die assozierte Arbeiterklasse)".(55) This ownership has nothing to do with the state ('public') ownership. True, the proletarian rule starts by "centralising all instruments of production in the hands of the state", as the Communist Manifesto asserts. But this act of what is usually called 'nationalisation' has nothing to do with socialism. This is undertaken rather as a mediating process towards "transforming these means of production into instruments of free and associated labour".(56) This change in the form of bourgeois property would signify basically that the proletariat first has to complete the task left unfinished, as it were, by capital itself before inaugurating and as a means of inaugurating its own emancipation. (We argued earlier that the proletarian dictatorship, while increasingly modifying the capitalist mode of production, does not completely cross it before its own extinction.)

It is only in course of time, with the demise of the proletarian state, when the "whole mode of production is revolutionised" and socialism begins that the real metamorphosis of what Marx calls "capitalist private property" into the appropriation by the whole society (itself) takes place, inasmuch as only then "all production is concentrated" not in the hands of the state— since the "public power" has lost "its political character"— but "in the hands of the associated individuals (in den Handen der assozierten Individuen)".(51) It follows that from the point of view of Marx the Leninist contention of the end of exploitation of person by person simply is the absence of individual private property—referred to earlier—is not quite correct. In the Marxian perspective such exploitation ceases only with the elimination of capitalist private property conceived as class property which includes individual private property only as a sub-class. Indeed, in the very text that Lenin analyses and uses to come to his own conclusion, Marx does not speak of private property of "separate individuals" over the conditions of production when speaking of capitalist property, but of "material conditions of production being apportioned to the non-workers in the form of property in capital"—that is, precisely, the capitalist class property including all its different forms—-and of their transformation into the "co-operative property of the workers themselves".(58)

True, Lenin too speaks of "socialism" as equivalent to a "co-operative comprising the entire society"(59)—the nearest he comes to treating socialism in terms of (new) relations of production. However, this "socialism", representing the "regime of civilised co-operators", as he would later call it, is based on "ownership of the means of production" by the "working class political power", which Lenin equates with "ownership by the socialist state" or, alternatively, "social ownership".(60) Thus Lenin seems to obscure the distinction between proletarian dictatorship and socialism even when the latter is equated to Marx's "first phase of communism".(61)

D

Earlier we referred to Lenin's view that the state remains in the first phase of communism in so far as it enforces the "bourgeois right" in the distribution of consumer goods among the society's members. This is of course Lenin's own conclusion which he seems to claim to derive from Marx's 'Marginal Notes' of 1875. This Lenin does by connecting two analytically separate sections in Marx's text—one on the distribution of consumer goods and the other on the state. Let us see how far Lenin's inference is warranted by Marx's texts.
First, as regards the distribution of consumer goods among members of the new society, Marx speaks of it in several places in alternative ways,(62) but nowhere brings in the state to enforce the "bourgeois right" underlying it. The "labour certificate"—as opposed to wage—which enables the labourer to draw his/her quota from society's common consumption stock, the labourer "receives from society (erhalt von der Gesellschaft)"(63) and not from the state. Indeed, the first phase of communism, which is ushered in after the proletarian dictatorship, that is, the proletarian state has met its natural death (along with the demise of the proletariat itself), does not require a special state (machinery) to "safeguard" either the "common ownership of the means of production" or "equality of labour", as Lenin would have it. If "society"—and not the state—can "distribute labour power and means of production among different branches of occupation", as Marx asserts,(64) there is no reason why the same society, that is, the "associated producers" themselves, cannot regulate the distribution of consumer goods among society's members.

Secondly, as to the question of the state, in the very first section of chapter V of the State and Revolution Lenin cites the following lines from Marx's 'Marginal Notes' of 1875: "The question is then: what transformation will the state form (staatswesen) undergo in a communist society? In other words, what social functions will be left there that are analogous to the present-day state functions?"(65) In the third section of the same chapter Lenin discusses the problem of distribution of the consumer goods among society's members, yet unable to transgress the "bourgeois right", and in the chapter's fourth section—devoted to the question of the "higher phase" of the communist society—Lenin asserts that only in that phase will the state completely wither away, and adds: "It follows that under communism not only the bourgeois right remains for a while but even the bourgeois state—without the bourgeoisie".(66) We submit that Lenin's conclusion does not necessarily follow from Marx's text(s). Let us see why.

First of all, as we reasoned above, whatever "bourgeois right" remains under the first phase of communism in the sphere of distribution of consumer goods could be enforced by what Marx calls the "co-operative society" itself without being mediated by a state (Marx himself does not refer to such a mediation). Secondly, in the quotation in question—where, as Lenin himself notes, Marx "only touches upon the question [of the state] in passing (mimokhodom)"(67) —Marx speaks not exactly of state as such but of "state form (staatswesen)"(68) and quite legitimately asks what kind of transformation the "state form" undergoes in the future society, in other words—as he clarifies—what kind of functions would remain that would be "analogous" to the functions of the present-day state.

Now, it so happens that Marx has a similar position regarding commodity production in (the first phase of) communism. Thus while discussing the principle of distribution of consumer goods among the future society's members Marx explicitly refers to the principle underlying commodity production "only as a parallel",(69) which obviously has the same sense as an 'analogy'. However, the society in connection with which this "parallel" or analogy is drawn completely excludes commodity production according to Marx, as we already know. On this basis we would think that raising the question of the existence of functions—in the future society—"analogous" to those of the present-day state need no more mean the existence of the state itself in that society than drawing a "parallel" with commodity production in connection with distribution in that society or even maintaining the "sameness" of the "principle of commodity exchange" with that of distribution in that society,(70) would mean the existence of commodity production itself in the first phase of communism. (Incidentally, Marx's speculation concerning the future of functions "analogous" to those of the present-day state refers to the "communist society" as such, not specifically to its "first phase".)(71) On the other hand, in a number of texts spread over practically his whole life, Marx explicitly excludes the state from the "Association" (which replaces the capitalist society).(72)

Finally, let us consider Lenin's contention—referred to earlier—that "all citizens", in the first phase of communism, "are transformed into hired employees (sluzhashchikh po naimu) and workers of one state syndicate" for whom there is "equality of labour and wages (zarabotnoi platyi)".(73) This perspective of socialism in Lenin is, we submit, completely different
from—if not opposed to—the Marxian perspective even when the latter refers to the first phase of communism.

For Marx, as he repeats in the very text that Lenin is considering here, wage is simply "the value or price of labour power", and if labour power ceases to be a commodity (along with the disappearance of capital) there obviously cannot be wage as labour remuneration either. For Marx the "Association"—at any stage—of (self) emancipated labourers and wage form of remuneration are, by definition, incompatible. On this question Marx's position is too well known to require any citation of specific texts. It must be stressed that the "labour certificates" given to the workers by society in the first phase of communism in no way constitute "wage" remuneration even when the society has not yet transgressed the "narrow bourgeois horizon".(74) As to the "hired employees of the state syndicate" they would of course go well with the wage form of payment. But, again, there can be no hired employees in the "co-operative society of producers" according to Marx. In his inaugural address to the International Workingmen's Association Marx in fact opposes "hired labour" to "associated labour". It could be that Lenin in the discussion on "wage" remuneration and "hired employees"— referred to here—is really having in mind proletarian dictatorship and not socialism (in his sense). But the context of his discussion, as is clear from his text, is the first phase of communism and not the "political transition period". Thus the analysis is pretty ambiguous, to say the least.

III
We conclude that the economic content of socialism in Lenin is not exactly the same as that in Marx. In his discussion of socialism Lenin departs from as well as follows Marx.
In Marx there is no distinction between socialism and communism, either of them referring to the "society of free and associated producers" which passes through (at least) two phases sequentially. Lenin calls Marx's first place of the new society 'socialism' and (often) reserves the term 'communism' for the second phase. Secondly, Lenin's approach to socialism is rather narrow, compared to Marx's and basically juridical. It is in terms of a specific property form in the means of production, where socialism is supposed to be based on "social ownership" (in the means of production), equated to (proletarian) state ownership, and is opposed to the private ownership of "separate individuals" in the means of production, supposed to be the basis of capitalism. The concept of ownership—including "social ownership" of the means of production—is very different in Marx. On the other hand, Lenin basically accepts Marx's position on the question of distribution of consumer goods in communism (in both the phases) as well as Marx's contention that there is no commodity production even at the first phase of the new society.
Lenin's position, again, is clearly different from Marx's in that he believes in the existence of wage form of remuneration for the "hired employees" of the state syndicate as well as the necessity of the existence of some form of "bourgeois state" ("without the bourgeoisie", of course) in the first phase of communism. Neither of these elements is a part of the Marxian "Association".

It should be stressed that the divergences between Lenin's concept of socialism and that of Marx cannot be adequately explained (or explained away) by a reference to any particular conjuncture that Lenin faced in "concretely applying" Marxian socialism, simply because most of the elements of the divergences are encountered in Lenin's theoretical writings before the October seizure of power—particularly in the State and Revolution, a work of pure theory, perhaps the last that Lenin wrote without much connection with the exigencies of 'application'.(75) We would rather suggest that while justly fighting to uphold Marxism as a guide to the revolutionary practice of the proletariat against the reformism of the Second International, Lenin ultimately does not seem to have succeeded in wholly transgressing the Second International's narrow horizon of concerning socialism as basically (proletarian) "state ownership" in the means of production as opposed to Marx's emancipatory vision of a society of free and associated producers created by themselves as an act of their self-liberation.


1 L Szamnely, First Models of the Socialist Economic Systems: Principles and Theories (Budapest, Akademiai Kiado, 1974: p 46).
2 'Zadachi proletariata v nashei revoliutsi' (1917), Izbrannye Proizvedeniya (hereafter
. IP) II (Moscow, 1982: p 42); The Tasks of the Proletariat in our Revolution' (1917), Selected Works (hereafter SW) II (Moscow, 1975: p 60).
3 'Doklad O subbotnikakh na Moskovsjoi obshchegarodskoi konferentsii RKP (B)' (1919), Polnoe sobranie sochinenii (herafter PSS) p 40 (Moscow, 1963: p 280).
4 'Gosudarstvo i revoliutsia' (herafter 'GR') (1917), IP II: pp 301-302; 'The State and Revolution' (hereafter SR) (1917), SW II: pp 305, 306.
5 Ibid, IP II: p 305; SW II: p 310.
6 'O prolovol'stvennom naloge' (1921), IP III (Moscow 1982: pp. 530, 541-42); '(On) The Tax in Kind'(1921), SW III (Moscow. 1971: pp 589, 600). Later this was to be the standard line upheld by the Soviet rulers and their international followers.
7 'Zadachi' (1917} IP II: p 42; The Tasks' (1917) SW II: p 60.
8 'OR', IP II: p 302; 'SR' SW II: p 306.
9 'Rech' na I vserossiiskom s'ezde..' (1918) IP II: p 669; 'speech at the 1st All-Russia Congress..: (1918) SW II: p 660.
10 'OR', IP II: pp 300, 302; 'SR' SW II: pp 305, 306. The word 'separate' does not appear in the standard English version (our emphasis).
11 Ibid, IP II: p 300; ibid, SW II: p 305, (our emphasis).
12 'O kooperastii' (1923) IP III: pp 711, 712, 714; 'on cooperation' (1923) SWll: pp 760, 761, 763.
13 Ibid: p 715; ibid: p 764.
14 'GR', IP II: p 301; 'SR', SW II: p 306.
15 Ibid, pp 301, 302, 306; ibid: pp 305, 307, 310.
16 Ibid, p 306; Ibid: pp 310-311.
17 Ibid: p 308; Ibid: p 312.
18 'Pervonachal'nyi variant stati' 'ocherednye zadachi Sovetskoi vlasti' (1918) PSS 36 (Moscow, 1962; p 151).
19 'Proekt programmayi RKP(B)' (1919) PSS 38 (Moscow, 1963; p 121).
20 KPSS v Resoliutsiakh i Resheniach II (Moscow, 1970, p 55).
21 Thus two Soviet economists, N Shmelev and V Popov, representing a consensus among the contemporary Soviet scholars, write: "Lenin's views on commodity-money relations under socialism gradually changed over the course of NEP", The Turning Point: Revitalising the Soviet Economy (New York, Doubleday, 1989; p 285).
22 'K Chetyrekhletnei godovshcine oktyabr'skoi revoliutsu" (1921), IP III: p 594; '(Towards) The Fourth Anniversary of the October Revolution' (1921). SW III: 647 (emphasis in the Original).
23 'O prodovol'stvennom naloge" IP III: p 530; '(On) The Tax in Kind', SW III: 589 (our emphasis).
24 'O znachenii zolota..: (1921), IP III: p 599; '(On) The Importance of Gold..! (1921), SW III: p 652 (our emphasis).
25 'Planyi broshiuryi 'O prodovol'stvennom naloge' (1921), PSS 43 (Moscow, 1963): p385.
26 'O prodovol'stvennom naloge1, IP III: p 549'; '(On) Tax in Kind', SW III: p 606.
27 'K Chetyrekhletnei godovshchine..:, IP III: p 594; '(Towards) The Fourth Anniversary'. SW III: p 647 (our emphasis).
28 'O prodovol'stvennom naloge", IP III: p 561; '(On) Tax in Kind', SW III: p 618' 'Nakaz ot sto'mestnym Sovetskim uchrezhdeniyam', (1921), PSS 43 (Moscow, 1964): p 276.
29 'O Kooperatsu", IP III: pp 713, 714, 717; 'On Co-operation', SW III: pp 761, 762,766 (our emphasis).
30 DasKapital (hereafter DK) III (Berlin, Dietz 1964: p 456); Capital III (Moscow, 1959: p 440).
31 'Wages, Price and Profit', Marx-Engels— Selected Works (in one volume) (hereafter
MESW) (Moscow, 1970: p 208.).
32 Grundrisse der Kritik der politischen Okonomie (hereafter Grundrisse) (Berlin, Dietz: p 75).
33 Thus when A Nove, the noted sovietologist writes: "It is sometimes alleged that no distinction was known to Marx between socialism and communism... This is surely not so. Marx's Critique of the Gotha Programme spoke of a first or a lower stage"; he shows how not to read Marx. See his The Economics of Feasible Socialism (London, George Allen and Unwin, 1983; p 10).
34 IP I (Moscow, 1982: pp 24ff); SW 1 (Moscow, 1970: pp 50ff).
35 ' Kritik der Gothaer Programms', Marx-Engels, Ausgewahlte Schriften (hereafter MEAS) II (Berlin, Dietz, 1964: p 24); 'Critique of the Gotha Programme', MESW: p327.
36 'Konspekt von Bakunins Buch 'Staatlichkeit und Anarchic'. Marx-Engels-H^r/te (hereafter MEW) XV1I1 (Berlin, .Dietz: p 630). Thus B Ollman seems to be utterly confused when he says, "Marx divides the communist future into halves, a first stage generally regarded as the dictatorship of the proletariat and a second stage usually called full communism", ('Marx's vision of Communism', Critique 1978, No 8, p 9).
37 When Paul Sweezy writes that "for Marx Socialism was a transitional society between capitalism and communism", it seems more appropriate to substitute 'Lenin' for 'Marx'. See his Post Revolutionary Society (New York, MR Press, 1980: p 136).
38 Grundrisse: p 76. The Phrase 'Offspring of Association" is in English in the Original.
39 'Kritik des Gothaer Programms; MEAS II: pp 15,16; 'Critique of the Gotha Programme', MESW: p 319 (emphasis in the text). Thus Oskar Lange's astounding affirmation that "a careful study of Marx's writings establishes clearly that he held the view that the theory of value applies to a socialist society" ('Marxian Economics in the Soviet Union', American Economic Review 1945, Mach: p 128), is clearly based on an erroneous reading of Marx's texts.
40 'VII Moskovskaya gubpartkonferentsiya' (1921), PSS 44 (Moscow, 1964: pp 207-08) (our emphasis).
41 Zur Kritik der politischem Okononic (Berlin, Dietz, 1958: p 13)' 'Towards a Critique of Political Economy' (Preface), MESW: p 181.
42 Grundrisse : pp 9, 413.
43 DK I (Berlin, Dietz 1962: p 99); Capital I (Moscow, 1954: 88).
44 'Letter to Engels (2-4-1858)' in Briefe uber 'Das Kapital' (Erlangen, 1972: p 88); DK III p 452; Capital III: 436.
45 DK III, ibid; Capital III, ibid. When P J D Wiles writes, 'No facts are more threatening and heretical for Marxist Economic thought than the divorce of ownership from control by limited liability companies under capitalism', one is amazed at his innocence of Marx's texts. That the author has not understood anything of Marx is clear when referring to Marx he adds that 'it is the accumulation of capital that brings us from socialism to communism'. See the author's The Political Economy of Communism (Oxford, 1962: pp 50, 60).
46 'Randglossen zu A Wagners 'Lehrbuch', MEW XIX (Berlin, Dietz, 1962: 370); DK II (Berlin, Dietz 1973: p 101); Capital II (Moscow, 1956: p 100).
47 Le Capital I (Paris, Editions Sociales, 1976: p 448); Capital I: p 588.
48 Similarly, when citing Engels precisely on the 'disappearance' of 'private production' under capitalism (State and Revolution, ch IV, sec 4) Lenin passes by the immense importance of the question under discussion.
49 Theorien uber den Mehrwert I (Berlin, Dietz, 1956: p 21).
50 DK III: 823 Capital III: p 815.
51 Marx-Engels Studienausgabe (hereafter MESA) III (Frankfurt am Main, Fischer, 1966: pp 71, 73); MESW: pp 47, 49.
52 The Civil War in France, MESW: 290.
53 DK I: p 92; Capital I: pp 82-83.
54 MEAS II: p 15; MESW: p 319.
55 Klassenkampfe in Frankreich 1848 bis 1850, MEW III (Berlin Dietz, 1973: p 42).
56 The Civil War in France, op cit; p 291.
57 MESA III: pp 76-77; MESW: p 53 (our emphasis). The standard English translation of this crucial sentence of the Manifesto is highly defective.
58 MEAS II: p 18; MESW: p 321.
59 'Pervonachalnyi variant..' PSS 36: 161.
60 See his two-part article 'On Co-operation' (1923) (IP III: pp 711-17; SW HI: pp 760-66).
61 With Lenin's successors, East and West, North and South—it is well known—the abolition of (individual) private property in the means of production, state-ownership over these means, their 'common ownership' by society, abolition of capitalism', elimination of 'exploitation of person by person', socialism—all these became equivalent expressions, where the beginning one is the result of a legislative act by the supposed to be 'proletarian state'.
62 For example, in Capital I, Ch 1, Sec 4; Capital II Ch 18; Gotha Critique, sect 1, sub-sec 3.
63 MEAS II: p 16; MESW: p 319.
64 DK II: p 358; Capital II: p 362.
65 Our translation from Marx's text and our emphasis.
66 IP II: p 306; SW II: p 310.
67 Ibid: p 294; ibid: p 299 our emphasis.
68 The standard English translation of Marx's 'Staatswesen' as simply 'State" is misleading as well as inexact. It is also curious that while citing Marx's relevant text in his own translation Lenin scrupulously uses, for Marx's 'Staatswesen', the exact Russian equivalent 'Gosudarstvennost', but while paraphrasing the text he simply uses 'State' ('Gosudarstvo') in the same sense as Marx's 'Staatswesen'.
69 DK I: p 93; Capital I: p 83. Here Marx does not yet distinguish between the two phases of the 'Association'.
70 MEAS II: p 16; MESW: p 319.
71 Assuming with Lenin—for argument's sake—that the state's existence is necessary in the first phase of communism, why does it have to be a 'bourgeois' state? Is it because only a bourgeois state can administer a 'bourgeois right'? Inasmuch as the first phase of communism, by definition, is inaugurated only after the transition period has come to an end—along with the proletarian dictatorship which had arisen on the ruins of the bourgeois state—the existence of bourgeois state in this phase, then, would imply that, in the absence of the bourgeoisie (also by definition), the workers themselves recreate the bourgeois state (however partially), after having abolished their own. Interesting.
72 The incompatibility of state and socialism (that is, 'Association') Marx shows almost uninterruptedly at least beginning with his polemic against A Ruge (Kritische Randglossen, 1844, MEWI: p 409), right up to his last theoretical writing (Randglossen Zu Adloph 'Wagners Lehrbuch'. MEW XIX: pp 360-61) passing through his polemic against Proudhon (Misθre de la philosophie, Oeuvres: Economie I, Paris, Gallimard; p 136), Communist Manifesto (end of the second section), 'Marginal Notes' of 1875 where he denounces 'servile faith in the State" as 'remote from socialism' (MEAS II: p 26; MESW: p 329). It should be stressed that Lenin fully accepts the Marxian position concerning the 'withering away' of the state in future. In fact in his Encyclopaedia article, referred to earlier, he specifically says that 'by leading to the elimination of classes, socialism will thereby also lead to the elimination of the state'. (IP I: p 26; SW I: p 53). But here he does not distinguish between socialism and communism. In the State and Revolution he maintains that the state will disappear only in the higher phase of communism but still remains in its first phase or what he calls 'socialism'. Indeed, he makes even a stronger statement in another, contemporary pamphlet: 'Socialism is nothing but state monopoly capitalism put to the service of the whole people and thereby ceasing to be capitalist monopoly' (IP II: p 201; SW II: p 211), that is, becoming simply state monopoly, we might add. We can only say that while Lenin's 1913 position fully corresponds to Marx's texts, his 1917 position—the dominant one in him—does not.
73 IP II: pp 306, 308; SW II: pp 310, 312. Allowing for Lenin's contention that there is a 'bourgeois state without the bourgeoisie' in the first phase of communism, the state syndicate in question can only be the bourgeois state syndicate employing wage labourers in the first phase of communism, given the absence (by defintion) of the proletarian state.
74 Here is an example of utter distortion of Marx's (emancipatory) position by a well known Marxist, which does not require any comment: 'Under the conditions which Marx described as the first stage of socialism', wrote M H Dobb, 'The existence of wage-differences according to the kind and amount of work performed necessarily plays a role in production', and rationalising Soviet 'socialism' he added: 'pricing of labour power according to the conditions affecting its supply...was to remain a basic constituent of (Soviet) economic accounting'.—Soviet Economic Development Since 1917 (New York, International Publishers, 1966: pp 388, 464).
75 It goes without saying that the question of comparative 'practicality' ('feasibility') of Marx's 'pure1 model of socialism versus it modified version in Lenin is altogether at a different level of abstraction.

ComradeOm
17th February 2010, 14:55
Whenever I hear religious comparisons used as slurs on Revleft, I release the safety catch of my BrowningI'd better email Chattopadhyay then and warn him that you won't let that "avowed disciples" dig pass


Anyhow, the point being made was that the bolshies differed from the views of Marx concerning socialism. It's quite obvious that the author advocates Marx's view, and indeed the main reason for the article is because the two are often confused (including by the bolsheviks), but how the hell you would get from this to, "Marx's view was right because Marx advocated it" (the point of the holy text comparison, unless it was done for the purpose of making its poster look inane for whatever reason, perhaps as part of an infiltration mission to make themselves look like not being much of a threat, so that they can go off to their Hitler shrines while others think that they're just having trouble finding the way to where they wish to go, y'know, "Sorry, I was trying to go to the toilet, but I ended up in Trafalgar Square by accident. Yeah, the return flight was delayed, so it took a while to get back, sorry about that." "That's ridiculous, but so was that seemingly earnest religious comparison slur they made earlier, so I suppose I shall trust them here." "Mein Fuhrer, I can get away with anything! Sorry, slip of the tongue." "Excused." And so on, until everybody dies in a nuclear holocaust), is rather hard to see. They are mostly not putting forth an argument for socialism in this article, and as such they aren't putting forth the argument that Marx was right because he was Marx, they're putting forth the case that Marx's conception of socialism, which they share, for various reasons (indeed, they mention it being 'immensely emancipatory', which should be enough to disprove the contention that they're advocating it because Marx advocated it), is distinct from those of the Bolsheviks. As such, it should be treated as separate, rather than being equated to those of the Bolsheviks, as it often isYou'll excuse me if I didn't get through all of that but I think I got the gist

Frankly I couldn't really care about whether Chattopadhyay thinks that "Marx was right" but was slating, in an oblique way, the underlying assertion that a theory must conform exactly to Marx's writings to be considered Marxism. Marxism is not a dogmatic set of scriptures (I'm really wracking these references up) but a 'living ideology' that constantly evolves and is added to. Of course there are differences between classical Marxism and Bolshevism, although I do not for a moment believe that these are as significant as Chattopadhyay charges, but then I've never met anyone who pretended otherwise. What people do do, and this is probably the major intellectual legacy of the Second International, is endlessly compare/contrast to the lodestone of Marx's writings and judge his successors to be either inferior (or revisionist, deviant, etc) or "separate"

All of which stems, IMO, from the futile intellectual exercise of stacking a reading of Marx's writings against a reading of Lenin's and a reading of Bukharin's, etc, etc. This is, as the author admits, a matter of considering various theories from a 'purely theoretical' angle. That is, in complete isolation from the actual socialist or revolutionary movements

But to be perfectly honest I wasn't even doing any the above. I was just laughing at the irony of it all. When criticising a movement for not adhering to Marx's writings (and there's no doubt that the Bolsheviks come out the worse from Chattopadhyay’s comparison) its generally not a good idea to invoke the name of Kautsky

ZeroNowhere
17th February 2010, 15:08
I'd better email Chattopadhyay then and warn him that you won't let that "avowed disciples" dig passThat wasn't on Revleft, and its point was that people who claimed to adhere to Marx's conception of socialism differed from it, rather than being a slur based on religious comparison.

SocialismOrBarbarism
17th February 2010, 18:14
Chattopadhyay's attempt to attribute such significance to a few minor/stupid theoretical mistakes on Lenin's, and even moreso Bukharin's, part by means of semantics is slander on the level of Bakunin. As any Marxist knows, "The character ... does not depend on this name, but on the economic foundation."

robbo203
17th February 2010, 18:57
I think the main point is this. It matters not that this particular conception of socialism as a moneyless wageless stateless commonwealth wealth happened to be one that Marx advocated. What matters is the conception itself, not its sponsors. The Bolshevik Revolution was not driven by some impulse to bring such conception into being. On the contrary, the Bolshevik revolution was a capitalist revolution not simply in the sense that Lenin tirelessly promoted the idea that state capitalism would be the way forward in his arguments with the Left Commnunists but in the more profounnd sense that state capitalism was the actual outcome. That is the bottom line. It is what defines a revolution - the outcome.

The problem arises however from the fact that Lenin invoked Marx and marxism in support of his goal. This is where I think Chattopadhyay is absolutely correct in pointing out the gulf between Marx and Lenin. While it is true that Marx did advocate a kind of state capitalist transition to socialism, he never confused this with the very clear conception of socialism he advocated. Lenin did.

cmdrdeathguts
17th February 2010, 19:49
I think the main point is this. It matters not that this particular conception of socialism as a moneyless wageless stateless commonwealth wealth happened to be one that Marx advocated. What matters is the conception itself, not its sponsors. The Bolshevik Revolution was not driven by some impulse to bring such conception into being. On the contrary, the Bolshevik revolution was a capitalist revolution not simply in the sense that Lenin tirelessly promoted the idea that state capitalism would be the way forward in his arguments with the Left Commnunists but in the more profounnd sense that state capitalism was the actual outcome. That is the bottom line. It is what defines a revolution - the outcome.

The problem arises however from the fact that Lenin invoked Marx and marxism in support of his goal. This is where I think Chattopadhyay is absolutely correct in pointing out the gulf between Marx and Lenin. While it is true that Marx did advocate a kind of state capitalist transition to socialism, he never confused this with the very clear conception of socialism he advocated. Lenin did.

Firstly, Lenin did not 'tirelessly promote' that idea. It arises in an improvised defence of the NEP, which was itself an improvised manoeuvre, designed to solve mounting economic issues in an isolated USSR while maintaining the Bolshevik grip on power. That amounts to one or two years in a three-decade career.

Secondly: perhaps they should not have maintained that grip; but what was on the agenda in that case at best was a bourgeois regime of the western type and, far more likely, some kind of restoration of the monarchy. What was not on the agenda was socialism - not in Marx's definition, not in Lenin's, though perhaps in Pol Pot's.

Thirdly: what binds Marxism together is not some nicely rounded 'theory of socialism', but a political strategy for the overthrow of bourgeois rule. The basic co-ordinates of that strategy unite Marx and Engels, Engels and Kautsky, and Kautsky and Lenin. It is that strategy that Lenin adapted to Russian conditions in the first two and a half decades of his political career, and that strategy which succeeded in posing the possibility of revolution throughout Europe. A left-communist may have had the best definition in the world of socialism in 1917, but he may as well have wiped his arse with it for all the difference it made. What made the revolution was Lenin's unity with Marx where it counted - on a political strategy for revolution.

As a final note, on those critically important matters where Kautsky and Marx do disagree - the state and the international character of socialist strategy, in particular - Lenin (down to 1917) is in every case on Marx's side in those disputes. Marx, as a consequence, is on Lenin's.

KlΓ©ber
17th February 2010, 19:59
Lenin's position is not without ambiguities.

As regards hired labour, let us recall that in his famous Inaugural Address to the International, Marx opposes "hired labour" to "associated labour". In fact Marx had already called the "state...employing productive wage labour" "capitalist".
Yes but eventually Lenin also called state-hired wage labor "capitalist."


Firstly, Lenin did not 'tirelessly promote' that idea. It arises in an improvised defence of the NEP
Actually it arose much earlier, at least by 1918, in defense of the high salaries for managers and bureaucrats (and also in opposition to Bukharin's suggestion that such high salaries were perfectly in line with communist principles).


And when they say, when Bukharin says, this is no violation of principle, I say that here we have a violation of the principle of the Paris Commune. ... If we pay 2,000 in accordance with the railway decree, that is state capitalism.
http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1918/apr/29.htm

robbo203
17th February 2010, 20:32
Firstly, Lenin did not 'tirelessly promote' that idea. It arises in an improvised defence of the NEP, which was itself an improvised manoeuvre, designed to solve mounting economic issues in an isolated USSR while maintaining the Bolshevik grip on power. That amounts to one or two years in a three-decade career..

Not so. Long before the NEP was even a twinkling in Lenin's eye he was defending state capitalism. In The Impending Catastrophe and How to Combat It written in 1917 he was saying

But state capitalism in a society where power belongs to capital, and state capitalism in a proletarian state, are two different concepts. In a capitalist state, state capitalism means that it is recognised by the state and controlled by it for the benefit of the bourgeoisie, and to the detriment of the proletariat. In the proletarian state, the same thing is done for the benefit of the working class, for the purpose of withstanding the as yet strong bourgeoisie, and of fighting it.

In the same year - 1917 - in Can the Bolsheviks Retain State Power? he was writing about the need to nationalise the banking system and of all the ridiculous things that Lenin said this was probably one of the most ridiculous:

"Without big banks socialism would be impossible. The big banks are the "state apparatus" which we need to bring about socialism, and which we take ready-made from capitalism;..A single State Bank, the biggest of the big, with branches in every rural district, in every factory, will constitute as much as nine-tenths of the socialist apparatus"


I could go on but then I wouldnt want to deprive DaveB of the opportunity to chip in with some more Lenin quotes :)



Secondly: perhaps they should not have maintained that grip; but what was on the agenda in that case at best was a bourgeois regime of the western type and, far more likely, some kind of restoration of the monarchy. What was not on the agenda was socialism - not in Marx's definition, not in Lenin's, though perhaps in Pol Pot's...


Yes exactly . Socialism was not on the agenda because for one thing, as Lenin himself indicated, there simply was no mass socialist understanding and, for another, the material conditions at the time were simply not conducive. A bourgeois regime of some kind, if not of the western kind , was inevitable. It turned out to be state capitalism.



Thirdly: what binds Marxism together is not some nicely rounded 'theory of socialism', but a political strategy for the overthrow of bourgeois rule. The basic co-ordinates of that strategy unite Marx and Engels, Engels and Kautsky, and Kautsky and Lenin. It is that strategy that Lenin adapted to Russian conditions in the first two and a half decades of his political career, and that strategy which succeeded in posing the possibility of revolution throughout Europe. A left-communist may have had the best definition in the world of socialism in 1917, but he may as well have wiped his arse with it for all the difference it made. What made the revolution was Lenin's unity with Marx where it counted - on a political strategy for revolution....

Except of course that Lenin's strategy of vanguardism was fundamentally at variance with Marx's

How anyone can mantain that the Marxian strategy of working class self emancipation is compatible with such random statements as these plucked from the scribblings of Lenin, defies belief

"If Socialism can only be realized when the intellectual development of all the people permits it, then we shall not see Socialism for at least five hundred years...The Socialist political party - this is the vanguard of the working class; it must not allow itself to be halted by the lack of education of the mass average, but it must lead the masses, using the Soviets as organs of revolutionary initiative…" (Quoted in John Reed's Ten Days that Shook the World , Modern Library edition, 1960, p.15)

But the dictatorship of the proletariat cannot be exercised through an organisation embracing the whole of that class, because in all capitalist countries (and not only over here, in one of the most backward) the proletariat is still so divided, so degraded, and so corrupted in parts (by imperialism in some countries) that an organisation taking in the whole proletariat cannot directly exercise proletarian dictatorship. It can be exercised only by a vanguard that has absorbed the revolutionary energy of the class. The whole is like an arrangement of cogwheels.(http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1920/dec/30.htm)

"Now we are repeating what was approved by the Central EC two years ago . . . Namely, that the Soviet Socialist Democracy is in no way inconsistent with the rule and dictatorship of one person; that the will of a class is at best realised by a Dictator who sometimes will accomplish more by himself and is frequently more needed"(On Economic Reconstruction 31 March 1920)

There is also the point that needs to be stressed again that Marx's conception of socialism and Lenin's conception of socialism were two quite different things.[/QUOTE]

Dave B
17th February 2010, 22:14
I could go on but then I wouldnt want to deprive DaveB of the opportunity to chip in with some more Lenin quotes :)

My head is full of leninist shit, and 'trotfinder' said why don't you read trotsky as well!

.

SocialismOrBarbarism
18th February 2010, 04:55
I think the main point is this. It matters not that this particular conception of socialism as a moneyless wageless stateless commonwealth wealth happened to be one that Marx advocated. What matters is the conception itself, not its sponsors. The Bolshevik Revolution was not driven by some impulse to bring such conception into being. On the contrary, the Bolshevik revolution was a capitalist revolution not simply in the sense that Lenin tirelessly promoted the idea that state capitalism would be the way forward in his arguments with the Left Commnunists but in the more profounnd sense that state capitalism was the actual outcome. That is the bottom line. It is what defines a revolution - the outcome.

The Paris Commune certainly didn't lead to a moneyless wageless stateless society now did it? Marx thought an uprising in Paris would be foolish, yet when one happened he didn't hesitate to support the Commune:


“And how did he behave when this hopeless cause, as he himself had called it in September, began to take practical shape in March 1871?... Did he begin to scold like a schoolmistress, and say: ‘I told you so, I warned you; this is what comes of your romanticism, your revolutionary ravings’? Did he preach to the Communards, as Plekhanov did to the December [1905] fighters, the sermon of the smug philistine: ‘You should not have taken up arms’?


The problem arises however from the fact that Lenin invoked Marx and marxism in support of his goal. This is where I think Chattopadhyay is absolutely correct in pointing out the gulf between Marx and Lenin. While it is true that Marx did advocate a kind of state capitalist transition to socialism, he never confused this with the very clear conception of socialism he advocated. Lenin did.
I fail to see how the fact that Lenin calls what is left after the achievement of socialism a state as opposed to statelessness or calls what is in fact not wage labor wage labor means there is a huge gulf between their conceptions or that this had any mentionable effect on his practical activity. It's no more significant than Marx calling working class political power a state while Bakunin didn't and tried to use this to slander Marx, as if the content of something is determined by it's name.

SocialismOrBarbarism
18th February 2010, 05:13
Not so. Long before the NEP was even a twinkling in Lenin's eye he was defending state capitalism. In The Impending Catastrophe and How to Combat It written in 1917 he was saying

But state capitalism in a society where power belongs to capital, and state capitalism in a proletarian state, are two different concepts. In a capitalist state, state capitalism means that it is recognised by the state and controlled by it for the benefit of the bourgeoisie, and to the detriment of the proletariat. In the proletarian state, the same thing is done for the benefit of the working class, for the purpose of withstanding the as yet strong bourgeoisie, and of fighting it.

Why do you constantly pluck quotes out of context while ignoring the way that Lenin is using state capitalism?


Lenin did actually apply the term “state capitalism” but not to the Soviet economy as a whole, only to a certain section of it: the foreign concessions, the mixed industrial and commercial companies and, in part, the peasant and largely kulak [rich peasant] cooperatives under state control. All these are indubitable elements of capitalism, but since they are controlled by the state, and even function as mixed companies through its direct participation, Lenin conditionally, or, according to his own expression, “in quotes,” called these economic forms “state capitalism.”


In the same year - 1917 - in Can the Bolsheviks Retain State Power? he was writing about the need to nationalise the banking system and of all the ridiculous things that Lenin said this was probably one of the most ridiculous:

"Without big banks socialism would be impossible. The big banks are the "state apparatus" which we need to bring about socialism, and which we take ready-made from capitalism;..A single State Bank, the biggest of the big, with branches in every rural district, in every factory, will constitute as much as nine-tenths of the socialist apparatus"
How is this ridiculous? Obviously socialism requires statistics, accounting and control.


Yes exactly . Socialism was not on the agenda because for one thing, as Lenin himself indicated, there simply was no mass socialist understanding and, for another, the material conditions at the time were simply not conducive. A bourgeois regime of some kind, if not of the western kind , was inevitable. It turned out to be state capitalism.
You act as if the Bolsheviks did not themselves recognize this. They knew socialism could not be constructed if the international working class didn't rise up in revolution and come to their aid. The Russian Revolution was to be the first shot in the world proletarian revolution.


Except of course that Lenin's strategy of vanguardism was fundamentally at variance with Marx's

How anyone can mantain that the Marxian strategy of working class self emancipation is compatible with such random statements as these plucked from the scribblings of Lenin, defies beliefOn the contrary Marx did not think the revolution would begin with mass socialist consciousness but that workers would come to it through their practical activity during the course of revolution. You can see this all throughout his writings, such as the German Ideology, Manifesto, Civil War in France, etc.


"Now we are repeating what was approved by the Central EC two years ago . . . Namely, that the Soviet Socialist Democracy is in no way inconsistent with the rule and dictatorship of one person; that the will of a class is at best realised by a Dictator who sometimes will accomplish more by himself and is frequently more needed"(On Economic Reconstruction 31 March 1920)Again ripping quotes from their context. How about, instead of taking everything Chomsky or whichever ignorant writer you get this from on faith, you actually read the works that these quotes come from. "The rule and dictatorship of one person" isn't referring to political rule but to management of industrial enterprises.



There is also the point that needs to be stressed again that Marx's conception of socialism and Lenin's conception of socialism were two quite different things.No, I think you mean that they called them different things. There is a difference.

robbo203
18th February 2010, 11:03
The Paris Commune certainly didn't lead to a moneyless wageless stateless society now did it? Marx thought an uprising in Paris would be foolish, yet when one happened he didn't hesitate to support the Commune:.

It doesnt require that something leads to socialism in order for it to be supportable. For example I would say the factory committees that sprang up in Russia in 1917 was a good development which I would have supported against the Bolsheviks endeavours to emasulate and finally crush these committees. However I would have no illusions that the factory committees in themselves necessarily lead to socialism




I fail to see how the fact that Lenin calls what is left after the achievement of socialism a state as opposed to statelessness or calls what is in fact not wage labor wage labor means there is a huge gulf between their conceptions or that this had any mentionable effect on his practical activity. It's no more significant than Marx calling working class political power a state while Bakunin didn't and tried to use this to slander Marx, as if the content of something is determined by it's name.

This is a ridiculous argument. You fail to see that there is a significant distinction between one defintion of socialism in which there is a state and wage labour and another defintition in which these things are wholly absent. This is tantamount to saying it really does not matter if we still have a state or wage labour.

SocialismOrBarbarism
18th February 2010, 11:30
This is a ridiculous argument. You fail to see that there is a significant distinction between one defintion of socialism in which there is a state and wage labour and another defintition in which these things are wholly absent. This is tantamount to saying it really does not matter if we still have a state or wage labour.How is it a ridiculous argument? Lenin, referring to Marx's conception of socialism, incorrectly called what is left after the establishment of socialism a semi-state that would wither away. That he called it a state does not make it so. He also called remuneration under socialized production with democratic control wage labor, but that's an obviously incorrect term for remuneration in this context, yet unless you were just deliberately trying to slander Lenin you wouldn't say that because of this Lenin supported capitalism. Since that is the position you take then I assume you would have to also agree that anarchist forms of organization during the revolution, or the authoritarian conceptions of early utopian crude communists are not states in the Marxian conception simply because they don't call them states. I fail to see how what you are doing is any less slanderous than Bakunin saying that Marx supported some authoritarian undemocratic dictatorship simply because he called working class political power a state. You, like Bakunin, are quick to throw around quotes while ignoring the content of the works and concepts you are attacking.

As for Chattopadhyay, some of the argument seems to stem from his misunderstanding of the Marxist concept of the state. To him the Marxian conception seems to be no more than "an institution which has autonomised itself from society" and yet he still talks about a workers state. Does this make Chattopadhyay a State Capitalist despite his support for workers democracy and anti-vanguardism, or is it a simple theoretical mistake?

robbo203
18th February 2010, 11:42
Why do you constantly pluck quotes out of context while ignoring the way that Lenin is using state capitalism? .

Well do enlighten me then. Tell me how precisely this is "plucked out of context" and says something about Lenin's view of state capitalism which he really didnt mean to say




How is this ridiculous? Obviously socialism requires statistics, accounting and control..

You totally miss the point. What Lenin was talking about was monetary statistics , monetary accounting and monetary control exercised by the big banks. This is what he was praising about the big banks when he said socialism would be impossible without them . Must be comforting for the CEOs of LloydsTSB, Deutche Bank, Bank of America and The Caixa Bank to know they've got comrade Lenin on their side!



You act as if the Bolsheviks did not themselves recognize this. They knew socialism could not be constructed if the international working class didn't rise up in revolution and come to their aid. The Russian Revolution was to be the first shot in the world proletarian revolution.

..

You are dreaming. The Russian revolution was a capitalist revolution that established state capitalism. The fact it was largely carried out by the proletariat is neither here nor there. As Marx noted
If the proletariat destroys the political rule of the bourgeosie, that will only be a temporary victory, only an element in the service of the bourgeois revolution itself, as in 1794, so long as in the course of history, in its movement, the material conditions are not yet created which make necessary the abolition of the bourgeois mode of production and thus the definitive overthrow of bourgeois political rule ("Moralising Criticism and Critical Morality" , 1847 http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1847/10/31.htm)




On the contrary Marx did not think the revolution would begin with mass socialist consciousness but that workers would come to it through their practical activity during the course of revolution. You can see this all throughout his writings, such as the German Ideology, Manifesto, Civil War in France, etc..

You are missing the point. Certainly there is a time in the revolutionary period when socialist consciousness is still a minority outlook. However for the revolution to be accomplished this emphatically requires that minority view should become the majority view. Like the Communist Manifesto said

All previous historical movements were movements of minorities, or in the interest of minorities. The proletarian movement is the self-conscious, independent movement of the immense majority, in the interest of the immense majority (Chapter 1. "Bourgeois and Proletarians" Manifesto of the Communist Party 1848)

Lenin take on this was quite different. The revolution results in a DOTP in which he specifically says only the vanguard will govern, not the proletariat as a whole because the proletariat as a whole in his view is not yet socialist minded. In short, the revolution is accomplished with only a minority being socialist minded still. Lenin is thus talking about a vanguard seizing power in advance of the working class being socialist minded. This was not Marx's view


Again ripping quotes from their context. How about, instead of taking everything Chomsky or whichever ignorant writer you get this from on faith, you actually read the works that these quotes come from. "The rule and dictatorship of one person" isn't referring to political rule but to management of industrial enterprises..

Well even if that was the case thats says a lot about Lenin's supposed commitment to "workers control" doesnt it when he is actually advocating control by one person. But I think the quote in questions denotes something more than what you suggest. Read it again
Namely, that the Soviet Socialist Democracy is in no way inconsistent with the rule and dictatorship of one person; that the will of a class is at best realised by a Dictator who sometimes will accomplish more by himself and is frequently more needed. Is talking about the "will of a class" something to be confined to the workers within a particular industrial enterprise or is it a more generalised observation?



No, I think you mean that they called them different things. There is a difference.

What on earth do you mean? All I am saying is that Lenins conception of socialism and Marx's conception of socialism were different. Do you agree or not?

red cat
18th February 2010, 11:56
Bob the Builder


Thanks for that. I wasn't quite sure which category to place the article in



Well in view of the fate that befell the factory committees under the Lenin government we can probably quite safely come to quite the opposite conclusion!

You base your conclusion on the assumption that the CP was non-proletarian.

The form of government that Lenin advocated was necessary at that point of time to save the revolution.

ComradeOm
18th February 2010, 12:29
In the same year - 1917 - in Can the Bolsheviks Retain State Power? he was writing about the need to nationalise the banking system and of all the ridiculous things that Lenin said this was probably one of the most ridiculous:

"Without big banks socialism would be impossible. The big banks are the "state apparatus" which we need to bring about socialism, and which we take ready-made from capitalism;..A single State Bank, the biggest of the big, with branches in every rural district, in every factory, will constitute as much as nine-tenths of the socialist apparatus" Its a good thing then that Marx never advocated the "Centralisation of credit in the hands of the state, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly"! :ohmy:

But then this is what happens when you reduce socialism (or Marxism) to carefully selected quotes. At this point it doesn't even become an academic exercise, something that I've accused you of many times before, but simple mental masturbation. Chattopadhyay's article is essentially engaged in the same pointless enterprise

robbo203
18th February 2010, 13:05
Its a good thing then that Marx never advocated the "Centralisation of credit in the hands of the state, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly"! :ohmy:




He did and I reject that as well. But at least he didnt pretend that a state bank will constitute as much as nine-tenths of the socialist apparatus" .

ComradeOm
18th February 2010, 13:19
He did and I reject that as wellWhich is not of great importance given that the whole premise of this thread is how Lenin supposedly differed from Marx


But at least he didnt pretend that a state bank will constitute as much as nine-tenths of the socialist apparatus" . So Lenin was arguing for a very big bank OR a very limited socialist state that is largely concerned with "accounting of the production and distribution of goods". One would think that this is a forward step, no?

SocialismOrBarbarism
18th February 2010, 14:30
Well do enlighten me then. Tell me how precisely this is "plucked out of context" and says something about Lenin's view of state capitalism which he really didnt mean to say

I already did by posting Trotsky's quote. You know this though, as Led Zeppelin made an entire thread confronting you over this issue, and there have been numerous other people, in numerous other posts, including myself, to do so, but you ALWAYS ignore them because they don't fit your dogmatic view.


You totally miss the point. What Lenin was talking about was monetary statistics , monetary accounting and monetary control exercised by the big banks. This is what he was praising about the big banks when he said socialism would be impossible without them . Must be comforting for the CEOs of LloydsTSB, Deutche Bank, Bank of America and The Caixa Bank to know they've got comrade Lenin on their side!Obviously, because that's what banks under capitalism do. I fail to see how that means that the systems of accounting developed by banks could not have been used to keep track of socialist production in the same way that computer systems that currently keep track of capital flows can not later be used to track orders of goods. As far as what Lenin was talking about, let's actually see what he said!


This brings us to another aspect of the question of the state apparatus. In addition to the chiefly "oppressive" apparatus—the standing army, the police and the bureaucracy—the modern state possesses an apparatus which has extremely close connections with the banks and syndicates, an apparatus which performs an enormous amount of accounting and registration work, if it may be expressed this way. This apparatus must not, and should not, be smashed. It must be wrested from the control of the capitalists; the capitalists and the wires they pull must be cut off, lopped off, chopped away from this apparatus; it must be subordinated to the proletarian Soviets; it must be expanded, made more comprehensive, and nation-wide. And this can be done by utilising the achievements already made by large-scale capitalism (in the same way as the proletarian revolution can, in general, reach its goal only by utilising these achievements).

Capitalism has created an accounting apparatus in the shape of the banks, syndicates, postal service, consumers' societies, and office employees' unions. Without big banks socialism would be impossible.

The big banks are the "state apparatus" which we need to bring about socialism, and which we take ready-made from capitalism; our task here is merely to lop off what capitalistically mutilates this excellent apparatus, to make it even bigger, even more democratic, even more comprehensive. Quantity will be transformed into quality. A single State Bank, the biggest of the big, with branches in every rural district, in every factory, will constitute as much as nine-tenths of the socialist apparatus. This will be country wide book-keeping, country-wide accounting of the production and distribution of goods, this will be, so to speak, some thing in the nature of the skeleton of socialist society.

You are dreaming. The Russian revolution was a capitalist revolution that established state capitalism. The fact it was largely carried out by the proletariat is neither here nor there. How exactly am I "dreaming"? You didn't even address a single thing I raised in that quote of my post.


As Marx noted
If the proletariat destroys the political rule of the bourgeosie, that will only be a temporary victory, only an element in the service of the bourgeois revolution itself, as in 1794, so long as in the course of history, in its movement, the material conditions are not yet created which make necessary the abolition of the bourgeois mode of production and thus the definitive overthrow of bourgeois political rule ("Moralising Criticism and Critical Morality" , 1847 http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1847/10/31.htm)I realize that you like to selectively quote Marx while ignoring him whenever he contradicts you. I'm sure you've seen it before but the Bolshevik position can actually be found in Marx:


Now the question is: can the Russian obshchina (http://www.marxists.org/glossary/terms/o/b.htm#obshchina), though greatly undermined, yet a form of primeval common ownership of land, pass directly to the higher form of Communist common ownership? Or, on the contrary, must it first pass through the same process of dissolution such as constitutes the historical evolution of the West?

The only answer to that possible today is this: If the Russian Revolution becomes the signal for a proletarian revolution in the West, so that both complement each other, the present Russian common ownership of land may serve as the starting point for a communist development.
That was precisely the goal of the Bolsheviks, something you constantly ignore.


You are missing the point. Certainly there is a time in the revolutionary period when socialist consciousness is still a minority outlook. However for the revolution to be accomplished this emphatically requires that minority view should become the majority view. Like the Communist Manifesto saidTo Marx the entire period of the Dictatorship of the Proletariat is the revolutionary period.


Both for the production on a mass scale of this communist consciousness, and for the success of the cause itself, the alteration of men on a mass scale is necessary, an alteration which can take place only in a practical movement, a revolution; this revolution is necessary, therefore, not only because the ruling class cannot be overthrown in any other way, but also because the class overthrowing it can only in a revolution succeed in ridding itself of all the muck of ages and become fit to found society anew.”

This is the same view he presents in other places, but most relevantly it was expressed by Engels in one of his drafts of the very same Manifesto:


Question 15: Do you intend to replace the existing social order by community of Property at one stroke?
Answer: We have no such intention. The development of the masses cannot he ordered by decree. It is determined by the development of the conditions in which these masses live, and therefore proceeds gradually.



All previous historical movements were movements of minorities, or in the interest of minorities. The proletarian movement is the self-conscious, independent movement of the immense majority, in the interest of the immense majorityConsidering that the proletariat was only the majority in one country, and that Marx and Engels advocated the "indirect dominance of the proletariat" in the other countries of Europe(such as France, which was about as proletarian, I fail to see how you can have such a literal interpretation. In any case, Lenin never advocated a revolution made without the support of the majority of the population.


Lenin take on this was quite different. The revolution results in a DOTP in which he specifically says only the vanguard will govern, not the proletariat as a whole because the proletariat as a whole in his view is not yet socialist minded. In short, the revolution is accomplished with only a minority being socialist minded still. Lenin is thus talking about a vanguard seizing power in advance of the working class being socialist minded. This was not Marx's viewThe whole period of DOTP is the social revolution, and during the revolution the Vanguard "leads the non-Party workers’ masses, educating, preparing, teaching and training the masses." This is not some static conception where the party simply takes power and that is that. The party is still a democratic party of hundreds of thousands of workers whose interest lies in the democratizing of the economy and society.



Well even if that was the case thats says a lot about Lenin's supposed commitment to "workers control" doesnt it when he is actually advocating control by one person. No it doesn't, because the demands were formulated in a specific context that you can not abstract them from, the context of war communism, something you also frequently ignore. Lenin did advocate workers control of industries by elected management; that is, until the country was plunged into a civil war, the economy destroyed and production completely disorganized, the majority of the population pushed to the edge of starvation, etc.


But I think the quote in questions denotes something more than what you suggest. Read it again
Namely, that the Soviet Socialist Democracy is in no way inconsistent with the rule and dictatorship of one person; that the will of a class is at best realised by a Dictator who sometimes will accomplish more by himself and is frequently more needed.I don't have to read the quote again because I, unlike you, actually take the time to read the works from which you dishonestly rip them from.


Is talking about the "will of a class" something to be confined to the workers within a particular industrial enterprise or is it a more generalised observation?It was in their opinion in the interests of the workers as a whole, considering that the people were starving and the workers state was near collapse, and that Lenin and co. thought that the solution to this, whether you agree or not, lie in scientific management. You only have to read a few of the works on the subject from that period to see the extreme desperation under which many of these actions were taken.


What on earth do you mean? All I am saying is that Lenins conception of socialism and Marx's conception of socialism were different. Do you agree or not?
In relation to the specific things that Chattopadhyay criticizes, namely the existence of a semi-state and wage labor under socialism, there is no difference in the actual concept, just the terms. Lenin called the organization of society under socialism a semi-state while Marx called this same organization statelessness. Lenin called remuneration under socialism wage labor while Marx did not. Using a wrong term to refer to a concept doesn't affect the concept itself.

robbo203
18th February 2010, 15:47
I already did by posting Trotsky's quote. You know this though, as Led Zeppelin made an entire thread confronting you over this issue, and there have been numerous other people, in numerous other posts, including myself, to do so, but you ALWAYS ignore them because they don't fit your dogmatic view..

I see. Its "dogmatic" of me to point out that lenin called socialism "state capitalist monopoly" made to serve the interests of the whole people. Or maybe once you again think Im just "plucking it out of context!:rolleyes:



Obviously, because that's what banks under capitalism do. I fail to see how that means that the systems of accounting developed by banks could not have been used to keep track of socialist production in the same way that computer systems that currently keep track of capital flows can not later be used to track orders of goods. As far as what Lenin was talking about, let's actually see what he said!..

I get it now . Socialism according to you entails keeping track of "capital" flows. Do you underestand what is meant by the word "capital" and its relation to the word "capitalism"?



How exactly am I "dreaming"? You didn't even address a single thing I raised in that quote of my post.!..

I did. I countered your claim that it was proletarian revolution by pointing out that it was a capitalist revolution carried out largely by the proletariat. Big difference



I realize that you like to selectively quote Marx while ignoring him whenever he contradicts you. I'm sure you've seen it before but the Bolshevik position can actually be found in Marx:
.

This is rubbish. I dont ignore Marx when his views contradict mine. I ve pointed out on numerous occasions that there are certain things that Marx said or advocated which I considered to be quite wrong. For instance, Ive consistently argued that the whole Marxian theory of dictatorship of the proletariat is incoherent and should be scrapped. Ive also oppose Marx 's view on supporting nationalist struggles. Ive got no problem whatsoever in saying precisely where or why I reject aspects of Marx




The whole period of DOTP is the social revolution, and during the revolution the Vanguard "leads the non-Party workers’ masses, educating, preparing, teaching and training the masses." This is not some static conception where the party simply takes power and that is that. The party is still a democratic party of hundreds of thousands of workers whose interest lies in the democratizing of the economy and society.
.

The point is that Marx ' approach differs from the Leninist approach in that Marx never advocated the proletarian seiure of power prior to the development of mass socialist consciousness. Lenin did. And far from the Bolsheviks "democratising the economy and society" they did the very opposite! They destroyed the factory commitees, they introduced one man management , they banned all political oppoents both inside and outside of the party. And you defend this?


No it doesn't, because the demands were formulated in a specific context that you can not abstract them from, the context of war communism, something you also frequently ignore. Lenin did advocate workers control of industries by elected management; that is, until the country was plunged into a civil war, the economy destroyed and production completely disorganized, the majority of the population pushed to the edge of starvation, etc.
.

Bollocks. This is a standard ploy by Bolshevik sympathisers - to blame the civil war. The Bolsheviks were already undermining the factory commmittees and the internal democracy of the Soviets before the civil war even commenced



In relation to the specific things that Chattopadhyay criticizes, namely the existence of a semi-state and wage labor under socialism, there is no difference in the actual concept, just the terms. Lenin called the organization of society under socialism a semi-state while Marx called this same organization statelessness. Lenin called remuneration under socialism wage labor while Marx did not. Using a wrong term to refer to a concept doesn't affect the concept itself.

Come on this is sheer nonsense. It is not a question of the misapplication of a label. It is rather a question of describing two quite different things. Its laugable to suggest that Lenin had basically the same idea of socialism as Marx except that where Marx saw, for example, the absence of wage labour Lenin saw it as being present as if this is one and the same phenonmenon both were describing or labelling. Ive never heard such a ridiculous argument frankly.

cmdrdeathguts
18th February 2010, 17:54
Not so. Long before the NEP was even a twinkling in Lenin's eye he was defending state capitalism. In The Impending Catastrophe and How to Combat It written in 1917 he was saying

But state capitalism in a society where power belongs to capital, and state capitalism in a proletarian state, are two different concepts. In a capitalist state, state capitalism means that it is recognised by the state and controlled by it for the benefit of the bourgeoisie, and to the detriment of the proletariat. In the proletarian state, the same thing is done for the benefit of the working class, for the purpose of withstanding the as yet strong bourgeoisie, and of fighting it.

In the same year - 1917 - in Can the Bolsheviks Retain State Power? he was writing about the need to nationalise the banking system and of all the ridiculous things that Lenin said this was probably one of the most ridiculous:

"Without big banks socialism would be impossible. The big banks are the "state apparatus" which we need to bring about socialism, and which we take ready-made from capitalism;..A single State Bank, the biggest of the big, with branches in every rural district, in every factory, will constitute as much as nine-tenths of the socialist apparatus"


I could go on but then I wouldnt want to deprive DaveB of the opportunity to chip in with some more Lenin quotes :)




Yes exactly . Socialism was not on the agenda because for one thing, as Lenin himself indicated, there simply was no mass socialist understanding and, for another, the material conditions at the time were simply not conducive. A bourgeois regime of some kind, if not of the western kind , was inevitable. It turned out to be state capitalism.



Except of course that Lenin's strategy of vanguardism was fundamentally at variance with Marx's

How anyone can mantain that the Marxian strategy of working class self emancipation is compatible with such random statements as these plucked from the scribblings of Lenin, defies belief

"If Socialism can only be realized when the intellectual development of all the people permits it, then we shall not see Socialism for at least five hundred years...The Socialist political party - this is the vanguard of the working class; it must not allow itself to be halted by the lack of education of the mass average, but it must lead the masses, using the Soviets as organs of revolutionary initiative…" (Quoted in John Reed's Ten Days that Shook the World , Modern Library edition, 1960, p.15)

But the dictatorship of the proletariat cannot be exercised through an organisation embracing the whole of that class, because in all capitalist countries (and not only over here, in one of the most backward) the proletariat is still so divided, so degraded, and so corrupted in parts (by imperialism in some countries) that an organisation taking in the whole proletariat cannot directly exercise proletarian dictatorship. It can be exercised only by a vanguard that has absorbed the revolutionary energy of the class. The whole is like an arrangement of cogwheels.(http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1920/dec/30.htm)

"Now we are repeating what was approved by the Central EC two years ago . . . Namely, that the Soviet Socialist Democracy is in no way inconsistent with the rule and dictatorship of one person; that the will of a class is at best realised by a Dictator who sometimes will accomplish more by himself and is frequently more needed"(On Economic Reconstruction 31 March 1920)

There is also the point that needs to be stressed again that Marx's conception of socialism and Lenin's conception of socialism were two quite different things.

On the first part of this: nationalisation of the banks is NOT ridiculous, and a 'socialist' regime in the sense of a post-revolutionary regime which has half a chance of creating socialism down the years will have to do it. It will be impossible - without slipping into a Cambodian 'year zero' situation - to abolish money immediately after the revolution. If you need money, you need credit. If you need credit, you need banks. If you need banks, you need them to be under the control of the working class as a whole, not a small section of financial capitalists. Putting the banks at the service of whatever decision-making bodies the revolution throws up is necessary, and that - any more terminological quagmires aside - is what nationalisation in a post-revolutionary situation entails. On the important matter, again, Lenin is right - we should nationalise the banks! He is also with Marx on this matter; the laziest of glances at the MIA reveals Marx in 1848 outlining the demands of the Communist Party in Germany: "a state bank, whose paper issues are legal tender, shall replace all private banks."
http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/03/24.htm

The only remaining interest of that quote is this finickity matter of 'defining socialism', in which my interest is rapidly waning. If Lenin's terminology is slippery here, then that needs to be rectified. But again you're missing the wood for the trees - the whole body of Lenin's work is directed at the Russian Revolution being the spark for the European revolution, which would in turn open the way to socialism in Russia. The overarching conception of socialism in Lenin, whatever its specific differences with that of Marx (neither thinkers prone to over-detailed theorisation of future societies, for good reason), is certainly not one that can be achieved in Russia alone. If he considers that under socialism - whatever that is - there will be nationalised banks, then let history prove him wrong. If we don't need them, we won't have them. That simple.

The rest is the standard parade of decontextualised anarchist 'smoking gun' quotes - all of which, needless to say, are post-1917. The first, from the John Reed book, is nothing more than an acknowledgement that consciousness develops unevenly (that we are having an argument at all is proof - one of us must be wrong, and even if we both are, that just means the vanguard's elsewhere). Yes, more politically aware sections of the class pull others behind them. That is no totalitarian horror, but simply exactly what you would expect when all bourgeois ideology is trying to kill our project dead.

The more 'damning' statements after that are certainly theoretically erroneous, and certainly minoritarian. By ripping them out of historical context, however, you imply that the negative consequences of Lenin's project flow out of these theoretical errors - in reality, these errors are rearguard actions, in sharp contradiction to the bulk of Lenin's writing, to defend distortions imposed on them by the situation. There is, of course, no excuse for this, and to this day we live in the shadow of those conceptions, shared by Trots, Stalinists and everyone else, about the nature of the party and so on. but to imagine that this is all there is to say about Lenin's Marxism is to fall into that myth yourself. In other words, if you want to attack Lenin's post-1919 conception of the vanguard/mass relationship, you can start by attacking Ebert and Scheidemann.

robbo203
18th February 2010, 19:11
On the first part of this: nationalisation of the banks is NOT ridiculous, and a 'socialist' regime in the sense of a post-revolutionary regime which has half a chance of creating socialism down the years will have to do it. It will be impossible - without slipping into a Cambodian 'year zero' situation - to abolish money immediately after the revolution. If you need money, you need credit. If you need credit, you need banks. If you need banks, you need them to be under the control of the working class as a whole, not a small section of financial capitalists. Putting the banks at the service of whatever decision-making bodies the revolution throws up is necessary, and that - any more terminological quagmires aside - is what nationalisation in a post-revolutionary situation entails. On the important matter, again, Lenin is right - we should nationalise the banks! He is also with Marx on this matter; the laziest of glances at the MIA reveals Marx in 1848 outlining the demands of the Communist Party in Germany: "a state bank, whose paper issues are legal tender, shall replace all private banks."
http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/03/24.ht

.

I know all this. Im not disputing that Marx too advocated a state bank etc. What I was pointing out was the utter absurdity of the idea promoted by Lenin that a state bank would constitute nine tenths of the socialist apparatus when socialism is by defintion a moneyless society. This is what I was saying was ridiculous.

You cant have it both ways. Either socialism is a moneyless society in which case Lenins talk of banks in socialism is poppycock or socialism is something else that allows banks and money to operate within it in which case Lenins view of socialism is markedly different from the traditional marxian conception

The reformist state capitalist programme offered bt Marx and Engels in the Communist Manifesto and elsewhere does indeed have resemblances to Lenin's model of transformation I agree. But the point is that Lenin incorporated such eminently capitalist insititutions like banks into his conception of "socialism". Marx and Engels did not

I think the argument behind both Lenin's and Marx idea of a transitional reformist programme was that nationalisation would in some way faciliate the socialist takeover. I think that argument is plainly wrong. State capitalism is a dead end, an irrelevance to the workers' cause. It is interesting that in later life Marx and Engels virtually disowned this section of the Communist Manifesto in their prefaces

On you final point about it being "impossible to abolish money immediately after the revolution" well when you think about it, this is quite illogical. If you still have money then it follows you have not yet had or completed your revolution. So you couldnt meaningfully talk about the situation being "after the revolution" where we are talking about a moneyless socialist society. At some point you have a money-based system, at another you dont. There is nothing in between. So quite logically when you move from one to other you effectively abolish money immeidately. Marx I think makes the same point in The German Ideology - that communism by virtue of its radical dysjunction with capitalism can only come about immediately in this literal sense. And I think he is right in this. People who talk vaguely about not being able to get rid of money immeidately haven't really thought through this matter yet

SocialismOrBarbarism
18th February 2010, 19:42
I see. Its "dogmatic" of me to point out that lenin called socialism "state capitalist monopoly" made to serve the interests of the whole people. Or maybe once you again think Im just "plucking it out of context!:rolleyes:

No, it's dogmatic that you accept the view that you do of Lenin's quote when you could, if you actually cared to, figure out what Lenin meant, since he actually defines what he means by the term in that context, and Trotsky repeats it in the quote I posted that you have again and again and again ignored.

The same goes for the quote you just posted, where the whole quote reads:

"For socialism is merely the next step forward from state-capitalist monopoly. Or, in other words, socialism is merely state-capitalist monopoly which is made to serve the interests of the whole people and has to that extent ceased to be capitalist monopoly."

In other words the already socialized production is combined with socialized appropriation. While constantly quoting this you have never actually said why it is theoretically wrong.


I get it now . Socialism according to you entails keeping track of "capital" flows. Do you underestand what is meant by the word "capital" and its relation to the word "capitalism"?
I get it now; you can't read.


I did. I countered your claim that it was proletarian revolution by pointing out that it was a capitalist revolution carried out largely by the proletariat. Big differenceI said it was to be the opening shot of the world proletarian revolution and that the Bolsheviks knew that without this socialism could not be built in Russia, something that obviously did not happen. But it suits you perfectly to ignore the Bolsheviks views on international revolution if it contradicts you.


This is rubbish. I dont ignore Marx when his views contradict mine. I ve pointed out on numerous occasions that there are certain things that Marx said or advocated which I considered to be quite wrong. For instance, Ive consistently argued that the whole Marxian theory of dictatorship of the proletariat is incoherent and should be scrapped. Ive also oppose Marx 's view on supporting nationalist struggles. Ive got no problem whatsoever in saying precisely where or why I reject aspects of Marx

As ComradeOm said,

"Which is not of great importance given that the whole premise of this thread is how Lenin supposedly differed from Marx"

Obviously when debating Marx's views I could care less what idiotic anti-Marxist positions you hold.


The point is that Marx ' approach differs from the Leninist approach in that Marx never advocated the proletarian seiure of power prior to the development of mass socialist consciousness. Except for in the quote from the German Ideology that I posted, or Engels quote from his draft of the Communist Manifesto, or...

So again we are back to "you like to selectively quote Marx while ignoring him whenever he contradicts you."

I'm not going to continue this when you simply ignore EVERY SINGLE THING that doesn't fit your views.



Come on this is sheer nonsense. It is not a question of the misapplication of a label. It is rather a question of describing two quite different things. Its laugable to suggest that Lenin had basically the same idea of socialism as Marx except that where Marx saw, for example, the absence of wage labour Lenin saw it as being present as if this is one and the same phenonmenon both were describing or labelling. Ive never heard such a ridiculous argument frankly.It's an extremely common mistake to call pay, even under socialism, a wage. You see it on revleft all the time. To suggest that people who mistakenly call this a wage are in reality just advocates of capitalism is extremely idiotic.

It is also an extremely common mistake to call any sort of organization of society, even direct democracy, a state. To say that people who advocate direct democracy while calling it a state are in reality not advocates of democracy at all simply because of this is extremely idiotic.

I'm not exactly sure if you are just willfully ignorant, playing stupid, or have a poor grasp of the English language, but whatever the case responding to you is not worth anyones time.

robbo203
18th February 2010, 20:20
No, it's dogmatic that you accept the view that you do of Lenin's quote when you could, if you actually cared to, figure out what Lenin meant, since he actually defines what he means by the term in that context, and Trotsky repeats it in the quote I posted that you have again and again and again ignored..

Waffle. Please tell me what extactly I have taken out of context in quoting Lenin's view that "socialism is merely state capitalist monopoly socialism is merely state-capitalist monopoly which is made to serve the interests of the whole people" All Lenin is saying here is that it is not like normal capitalist monopoly which by implication does not serve the interests of the whole people. But it is still neverthless a form of state capitalist monopoly. He says it in black and white. Are you denying it?



I get it now; you can't read.
..

I get it now;you dont understand what is meant by "capital". and hence the incongruity of you talking about capital flows in a non capitalist economy would have completely passed over your head



I said it was to be the opening shot of the world proletarian revolution and that the Bolsheviks knew that without this socialism could not be built in Russia, something that obviously did not happen. But it suits you perfectly to ignore the Bolsheviks views on international revolution if it contradicts you...


I know very well the Bolsheviks views on international revolution and Trotsky's thoughts on permanent revolution. What puzzles is why you think i ignore them because they contradict me. On the contrary I actually think Trostky was largely correct in this case. Without an international socialist revolution happening elsewhere and especially in the heartland of capitalism there was zilch chance of socialism happening in Russia. So what exactly are you rabbiting on about? The thing is that there was no chance of socialist revolution happening elsewhere anyway at that time since the mass socialist consciousness simply did not exist. The workers of Europe had just been slaughtering each other in the cause of their respective masters; do you seriously imagine they had suddenly all become socialists with a wave of a magic wand



So again we are back to "you like to selectively quote Marx while ignoring him whenever he contradicts you."...

Now look - either you are a bit thick and slow on the uptake or you are being deliberately deceitful. So I will say it again. There are a number of things that Marx said which clearly contradict what I hold to be the case and I have absolutely no problem in saying what these are and openly expressing my disagreement with Marx in these instances . I have never "ignored" them as you stupidly say. I have several times criticised Marx for his, in my opinion, incoherent notion of the Dictatorship of the Proletariat. Is that ignoring him? No ! Ive critcised his views on national liberation struggle. Is that ignoring him. Again No! . I ve criticised the reformist state capitalist measures advocated in the Communist Manifesto. Again, how the fuck is this "ignoring him"? Strewth! And you have the nerve to say I cant read

SocialismOrBarbarism
18th February 2010, 21:24
I get it now;you dont understand what is meant by "capital". and hence the incongruity of you talking about capital flows in a non capitalist economy would have completely passed over your headSeeing that I never said anything about capital flows in a non capitalist economy I think my suspicions about your poor grasp of English are quite justified.


The thing is that there was no chance of socialist revolution happening elsewhere anyway at that time since the mass socialist consciousness simply did not exist.So now you actually ignore history when it contradicts your view. How surprising! I guess the multiple revolutions in Germany, the revolution in Hungary, and other events simply didn't happen.


Now look - either you are a bit thick and slow on the uptake or you are being deliberately deceitful. So I will say it again. There are a number of things that Marx said which clearly contradict what I hold to be the case and I have absolutely no problem in saying what these are and openly expressing my disagreement with Marx in these instances . I have never "ignored" them as you stupidly say. I have several times criticised Marx for his, in my opinion, incoherent notion of the Dictatorship of the Proletariat. Is that ignoring him? No ! Ive critcised his views on national liberation struggle. Is that ignoring him. Again No! . I ve criticised the reformist state capitalist measures advocated in the Communist Manifesto. Again, how the fuck is this "ignoring him"? Strewth! And you have the nerve to say I cant read

THIS IS A THREAD ON MARX'S VIEWS AND WE ARE DISCUSSING MARX'S VIEWS, not your views. They are completely irrelevant when debating what Marx thought about revolution. Any time someone posts a quote from Marx that contradicts your view of Marx, you ignore it. That is what I meant and if you weren't so thick you would have realized that by now.

Finally, as I said I have no interest in talking with someone who is so obviously just willfully ignorant and could care less about the actual ideas of Lenin, so try directing your anti-Marxist and anti-Leninist crap at someone else.

robbo203
18th February 2010, 23:43
So now you actually ignore history when it contradicts your view. How surprising! I guess the multiple revolutions in Germany, the revolution in Hungary, and other events simply didn't happen..

I didnt say they didnt happen. I said there was no chance of socialism being the outcome. There simply was not the necessary mass socialist consciousness to effect a socialist transformation of society. Do you deny that?



THIS IS A THREAD ON MARX'S VIEWS AND WE ARE DISCUSSING MARX'S VIEWS, not your views. They are completely irrelevant when debating what Marx thought about revolution. Any time someone posts a quote from Marx that contradicts your view of Marx, you ignore it. That is what I meant and if you weren't so thick you would have realized that by now. ..

I am well aware we are discussing Marx's views thank you very much since I initiated this thread in the first place. So friggin what. What I objected to was your dumb claim that. "So again we are back to "you like to selectively quote Marx while ignoring him whenever he contradicts you." I am quite happy to say I dont agree with Marx when someone posts a quote of his that I disagree with and I have done so many times before Its a no big deal


All you are trying to do here is bullshit your way ot of the mess youve got yourself into and you know it


Finally, as I said I have no interest in talking with someone who is so obviously just willfully ignorant and could care less about the actual ideas of Lenin, so try directing your anti-Marxist and anti-Leninist crap at someone else.


Fine . No one is forcing you to share your leninist crap on this forum and if you cant stand the heat ion the kitchen well then you know what you can do, dont you?

Dave B
19th February 2010, 20:06
The ‘fairy tale gamble’ justification for the Russian revolution being dependent on revolutions elsewhere, and that what was to be done was done with that in mind has obviously been put before.

Actually Lenin dismissed that line of thinking, at least in part.

V. I. Lenin

EXTRAORDINARY SEVENTH CONGRESS
OF THE R.C.P.(B.)






Yes, we shall see the world revolution, but for the time being it is a very good fairy-tale, a very beautiful fairy-tale -- I quite understand children liking beautiful fairy-tales. But I ask, is it proper for a serious revolutionary to believe in fairy-tales? There is an element of reality in every fairy-tale. If you told children fairy-tales in which the cock and the cat did not converse in human language they would not be interested. In the same way, if you tell the people that civil war will break out in Germany and also guarantee that instead of a clash with imperialism we shall have a field revolution on a world-wide scale, the people will say you are deceiving them.


In doing this you will be overcoming the difficulties with which history has confronted us only in your own minds, by your own wishes. It will be a good thing if the German proletariat is able to take action. But have you measured it, have you discovered an instrument that will show that the German revolution will break out on such-and-such a day? No, you do not know that, and neither do we. You are staking everything on this card. If the revolution breaks out, everything is saved. Of course! But if it does not turn out as we desire, if it does not achieve victory tomorrow -- what then? Then the masses will say to you, you acted like gamblers -- you staked everything on a fortunate turn of events that did not take place, you proved unfitted for the situation that actually arose instead of the world revolution, which will inevitably come, but which has not yet reached maturity.



http://www.marx2mao.net/Lenin/ESC18.html (http://www.marx2mao.net/Lenin/ESC18.html)

On the stuff;

The 1882 Russian Edition





Now the question is: can the Russian obshchina (http://www.revleft.com/glossary/terms/o/b.htm#obshchina), though greatly undermined, yet a form of primeval common ownership of land, pass directly to the higher form of Communist common ownership? Or, on the contrary, must it first pass through the same process of dissolution such as constitutes the historical evolution of the West?

The only answer to that possible today is this: If the Russian Revolution becomes the signal for a proletarian revolution in the West, so that both complement each other, the present Russian common ownership of land may serve as the starting point for a communist development.


http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/preface.htm (http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/preface.htm)


This was a spin-off argument from something that was gone into in more detail elsewhere, unfortunately it involves an understanding of some basic Marxist theory, re the evolution of peasant ideology.

On Social Relations In Russia by Engels, Afterword (1894)

http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1894/01/russia.htm (http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1894/01/russia.htm)

Attempting to wrap it up into a couple of paragraphs, peasants ordinarily would develop a petty bourgeois mentality, ie they would only wish to own their own little farm and run it like a family owned business and trade competitively with the rest of the world. The idea of socialised and collective production with common ownership could go to hell as far as they were concerned.

That, it was thought was the tendency of the aspirations and ambitions of peasants in much of 19th century Europe. There were all like minded Ingalls’s, and if you are uncertain of the idea you can read the book or watch the TV programme.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_House_on_the_Prairie_(TV_series (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_House_on_the_Prairie_(TV_series))

Of course many of these peasants went off to the land of the American dream to do just that.


As a result of a dialogue and familiarisation of the Russian situation etc Marx and Engels came to accept that Russia was so backward that residual elements and ideology of primitive communism still existed in Russia with the so called Mir system etc.



Therefore the standard rule of progress of ‘feudal peasant’ to petty bourgeois peasant to impoverished petty bourgeois peasant to wage worker to advanced communist consciousness could be missed or dropped out.


As far as these so called backward ‘peasants’ were concerned.


Having said that circa 1880 they thought rightly or wrongly that for that notion to have any validity things would have to happen soon before these kind of people and their ideology were sucked into the whirl-pool of commodity production.


Kropotkin wrote some interesting stuff on this in his Mutual Aid albeit coming from a different angle.

Marx and Engels were so locked into the theoretical and mechanical idea that capitalism had to spread and the majority become dispossessed of the means of production and become wage workers before they could obtain a communist consciousness. That they at one point endorsed the nationalisation of feudal land to turn the peasants into wage workers. To circumvent or leap over the stage of them becoming petty bourgeois and naturally sympathising a bit with the property rights of their bigger brothers.


The idea of dragging up the nationalisation of the banks stuff from 1848 as dogma when they had a least appeared to disown that kind of stuff is dishonest eg.


However much that state of things may have altered during the last twenty-five years, the general principles laid down in the Manifesto are, on the whole, as correct today as ever. Here and there, some detail might be improved. The practical application of the principles will depend, as the Manifesto itself states, everywhere and at all times, on the historical conditions for the time being existing, and, for that reason, no special stress is laid on the revolutionary measures proposed at the end of Section II (http://www.revleft.com/vb/ch02.htm). That passage would, in many respects, be very differently worded today. </SPAN>


http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/preface.htm (http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/preface.htm)

There was no evidence of an appetite for this kind of state socialism later.




But of late, since Bismarck went in for state-ownership of industrial establishments, a kind of spurious socialism has arisen, degenerating, now and again, into something of flunkeyism, that without more ado declares all state ownership, even of the Bismarckian sort, to be socialistic. Certainly, if the taking over by the state of the tobacco industry is socialistic, then Napoleon and Metternich must be numbered among the founders of socialism.


If the Belgian state, for quite ordinary political and financial reasons, itself constructed its chief railway lines; if Bismarck, not under any economic compulsion, took over for the state the chief Prussian lines, simply to be the better able to have them in hand in case of war, to bring up the railway employees as voting cattle for the government, and especially to create for himself a new source of income independent of parliamentary votes -- this was, in no sense, a socialistic measure, directly or indirectly, consciously or unconsciously. Otherwise, the Royal Maritime Company, the Royal porcelain manufacture, and even the regimental tailor of the army would also be socialistic institutions.



http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1877/anti-duhring/notes.htm#n*10 (http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1877/anti-duhring/notes.htm)

The very kind of junkers state capitalism that Lenin wanted to ape.

There is another argument here I think, and not one I would want to endorse, which is being ignored because it is somewhat in the middle.

How would one assess a fully democratic and consciously accepted system of ‘state capitalism’? It may look a bit like a Deleonist or parecon system. However you can’t engage Leninists on this as Leninism is that workers like myself are too degraded and corrupted to participate.


And it would have to be administered by the Leninists like the ones we have here, the ‘under-appreciated’ and frustrated petty bourgeois intelligentsia who deserve their place in the sun and in the 'Marble Halls' of power, in place or substituted for capitalists ordinary themselves.





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