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Lumpen Bourgeois
15th February 2010, 21:19
How exactly would a private legal system operate?

Here's a rather short article from one anarcho-capitalist's perspective:


If I had my choice of perfect worlds, there would be no government in it. People purchase protection from a private company of their choice. This company, in turn, subscribes to a system of laws which is privately written. Independent judges interpret the law fairly, or they don't get the business next time. Some legal systems will come into conflict, which will be resolved by a payment in one direction or another. The price one pays for a legal system determines the amount of conflict one bears. Poor people obviously get a cheap one which doesn't allow for much conflict. But it does cover them against the essentials -- no murder, no theft. In the end they get more justice by buying it in an efficient market than what they're currently getting through government -- arguably less than zero.
There's a lot of reasons to expect that this would result in better laws.
Obviously, in my perfect world, some parents still hurt their own children, so there must be provision in people's laws to protect children against their parents as well as others. And equally obviously, some people will seek to employ inordinate violence against their attackers, so there must be provision in people's laws against that as well. How do I know that these provisions will be there? Because people will purchase a subscription to a legal system without knowing whether it will be used for or against them. So, they will shop carefully. Will they make mistakes even though I'm supposing a perfect world? Sure they will. But the mistakes come from their own choice of legal system, and they have the power to correct that.
None of us has the power to correct our governmental legal system single-handedly. A private legal system, on the other hand, would quickly triangulate on what the majority desire for justice. The legal systems that gave out the justice that most people wanted would be cheapest, which would tend to bring in people from the sidelines to the same majority legal system. In practice most legal systems would be very similar to each other, and would be very close to optimal. This should be contrasted with the current governmental systems, which tend to produce laws optimized for special interests.
If you want an example of how this might work, take an extremely difficult example -- abortion. Clearly many people want the freedom to abort their babies. Many people also think that's murder. They would each choose legal systems that allowed or disallowed abortion. How, then, would these legal systems work? How could you both allow and prohibit abortion?
Let's follow an example. A woman gets pregnant and decides to carry the baby to term. Fine. She's not disobeying anybody's laws. Let's say that she decides to have an abortion. Obviously she hasn't chosen the anti-abortion legal system. She would contract with a doctor for an abortion. However, the pro-choice legal system has been paid to include a term that says that an anti-abortion protection firm will be informed of such a contract. Maybe the woman doesn't like this very much, but she chose that system, and besides it made her legal system cheaper. Now the anti-abortion firm knows that she's serious about getting an abortion. They offer to buy her all the medical care she needs to deliver the baby, and will find parents willing to adopt the baby.
Now here's where it gets tricky. Exactly what happens depends on exactly how many people are in favor of abortion choice and how much they're willing to spend to get their way. Let's say that the anti-abortion people are in the minority. They won't have the resources to help every women, but they'll have it for some, as many as possible. So, even though they're in the minority, they'll get their way more often than they do now.
Let's suppose it's the other way around -- that the pro-choicers are in the minority. It's likely that their legal system will be more expensive, because it includes the choice of abortion. It also requires them to seek counselling before getting an abortion. It also imposes a mandatory 7-day waiting period. Both of these were purchased by the anti-abortion majority, who have large resources at their disposal. A license to have an abortion might cost some serious amount of dollars.
Do poor people get screwed by a private market for law? Yes, absolutely, no question about it. If they weren't screwed, you'd have a hard time calling them "poor", or saying that "poor" was a bad thing to be. The harder question to answer is whether they are screwed more or less under a system of governmental legislated law as under a system of purchased private market law. At least under private law, somebody can purchase a subscription and donate it to them. If you think nobody would do that, you must first take your magic wand and wave away the existance of the Carnegie libraries (http://www.andrewcarnegie.cc/).
In this manner, through a market for law, you have people purchasing, not voting for, law systems. To the extent that they purchase non-controversial, majority law, it's cheap. If they want to do something most people disagree with, it costs them money, and not many people can afford to do it. Contrast this with the current system where every man has a vote regardless of how strong he feels about the subject, and every decision is decided regardless of how many people feel strongly about it.

Source (http://angry-economist.russnelson.com/private-law.html)

So according to this article, you essentially vote with your money for the legal system that you desire.

If chattel slavery were to exist in a free market society and you just happen to find such a practice objectionable, then that's alright! The pro-slavery legal system will have to inform you(and maybe an anti-slavery firm?) that slavery is taking place somewhere and you'll then have the oppurtunity to simply pay the slavemasters to cease the practice. After the transaction, the slavemasters get their rightful compensation(which I assume would be the lost revenue incurred by foregoing slaving) and you get to stop enslavement. Everbody wins and that's what the free market is all about, right?

So what are your thoughts?

Maybe some of the free marketeers here have a different conception of free market provided law. Please elucidate, if you will.

ComradeMan
15th February 2010, 23:57
I am really beginning to despise anarcho-capitalism more than normal capitalism...

The very first two lines show absolutely no understanding of basic principles of law.

If I had my choice of perfect worlds, there would be no government in it. People purchase protection from a private company of their choice. This company, in turn, subscribes to a system of laws which is privately written.

Laws cannot be written privately!!!!

Aristotle:- it is more proper that law should govern than any one of the citizens: upon the same principle, if it is advantageous to place the supreme power in some particular persons, they should be appointed to be only guardians, and the servants of the laws." (Aristotle, Politics 3.16 (http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Politics_(Aristotle)/Book_3#3:16)).

This could not be achieved in a private company.

Secondly, the fundamental principle "Legibus similiter omne hominum genus tenetur", (L.c. de conduct. praed. fisc) the "Law is equal for all" could not be achieved and/or maintained within private companies. The law cannot be above or below the law for it is the law. A private company would be a law unto itself and thus what law would monitor the company?- The nightmare of quis custodiet ipsos custodes in full.

A fundamental principle of law is "Lex commune praeceptum est"- the law is a communal precept.

As for the rest of this balderdash argument. What about people who don't have the money and need recourse to law? What about when two "private laws" are in conflict? Or two groups?

Skooma Addict
16th February 2010, 00:05
Laws cannot be written privately!!!!Except for the many examples of private law which existed throughout history....

danyboy27
16th February 2010, 00:08
laws where written privatly long time ago you know, with the consequences that came with it; (Unfair trial, baseless accusations, executions)

back in the day, buisness could trial their employee and had virtually power of death over them.


do we really need to get back to this shit?

Drace
16th February 2010, 01:37
If a law exists, it has to exist to all members of that society. You only subscribe to laws that you like?
How does that make sense. What if two companies write contradicting private laws?

It makes the whole concept of law useless. Law must either be a democratically owned institute, a government institute or a business which holds a monopoly over it.
You also need force to uphold law.

This includes prisons as well as police. How would prisons be able to run privately? How would a prison even be able to run for profit? Turning the prison to a sweatshop to make it productive?

gorillafuck
16th February 2010, 02:08
If this were enacted I would make a private law firm. And it would be full of all sorts of ridiculous laws. You think you're allowed to pass by my clients on the sidewalk without high fiving them? Think again...

ComradeMan
16th February 2010, 08:55
Except for the many examples of private law which existed throughout history....


Yes, past tense, which is what we are struggling to move away from. This idea quoted in the OP is a reactionary step back to the Roman patricians in my opinion....

Ele'ill
16th February 2010, 09:00
If a law exists, it has to exist to all members of that society. You only subscribe to laws that you like?
How does that make sense. What if two companies write contradicting private laws?

It makes the whole concept of law useless. Law must either be a democratically owned institute, a government institute or a business which holds a monopoly over it.
You also need force to uphold law.

This includes prisons as well as police. How would prisons be able to run privately? How would a prison even be able to run for profit? Turning the prison to a sweatshop to make it productive?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_prison

Although I think your other points are valid. Perhaps I missed something.

Havet
16th February 2010, 10:13
There are a variety of polycentral non-competing alternatives to a private-system of competing law. Various historical examples show this, and they also show examples of competing law. Like all legal systems that ever existed, eventually it disappeared due to the imposing of the current legal system.

http://vimeo.com/7577646

Most ancaps really prefer the option of competing private defense agencies, while i prefer an intersubjective consensus approach to common law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_law) and tort law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tort_law).

Havet
16th February 2010, 10:15
If this were enacted I would make a private law firm. And it would be full of all sorts of ridiculous laws. You think you're allowed to pass by my clients on the sidewalk without high fiving them? Think again...

You'd go out of business xD

gorillafuck
16th February 2010, 12:19
You'd go out of business xD
No, I'd charge moderately cheap and my clients would make mad cash off of the fines imposed on people who neglect to high five them.

Havet
16th February 2010, 16:17
No, I'd charge moderately cheap and my clients would make mad cash off of the fines imposed on people who neglect to high five them.

I don't think there is a market for that kind of business. The demand for high fives is not marketable, and you're only making it more profitable for business which opposes such forcing of a custom