Class survey poll-

[ComradeMan]

Be honest, which class would you be put in really given your background, education and economic means.

[Che a chara]

as i just said in a thread there now, i don't think there is such a thing as 'middle class'. it's a term used by the ruling elite to divide many between working class and not working class.

imo, there's the working class and the ruling class. to put anyone lower than working class is itself creating a hierarchy.

[Che a chara]

as i just said in a thread there now, i don't think there is such a thing as 'middle class'. it's a term used by the ruling elite to divide many between working class and not working class.

imo, there's the working class and the ruling class. to put anyone lower than working class is itself creating a hierarchy.

or there's the confused class who aint got a clue :lol:

[Che a chara]

who's the ruling class ?, c'mon fess up. gis all yer ill gotten gains and belongings !!! :lol:

[ComradeMan]

Who the fcuk is the aristocrat! Lol... I bet it begins with Bud and ends in Struggle! Ha ha! LOL!!! Anyway, I did say which class you think you would be put in and to be honest... i.e. according to traditional/mainstream ways of determining class.

[Bud Struggle]

Who the fcuk is the aristocrat! Lol... I bet it begins with Bud and ends in Struggle! Ha ha! LOL!!! Anyway, I did say which class you think you would be put in and to be honest... i.e. according to traditional/mainstream ways of determining class.

Not me. I'm a working man. I work alongside my brother workers in the factory that I own. I'm a former member of the IWW and a current member of Communist Party of the United States.

[Drace]

Not me. I'm a working man. I work alongside my brother workers in the factory that I own. I'm a former member of the IWW and a current member of Communist Party of the United States.

Wow, CPUSA sucks more than I thought.

[Che a chara]

Who the fcuk is the aristocrat! Lol... I bet it begins with Bud and ends in Struggle! Ha ha! LOL!!! Anyway, I did say which class you think you would be put in and to be honest... i.e. according to traditional/mainstream ways of determining class.

admin; ip check the aristocrat's address !!, suit up folks, we're going hunting !

well according to what the mainstream thought of what i would be classed as i would say between lower middle and middle class as opposed to working class which i voted on.

[Bud Struggle]

Wow, CPUSA sucks more than I thought.
All you have to do is send your $35. and you are a member--no questions asked. :)

Beyond that--I seriously have no idea which class I belong to. Maybe upper middle--I don't believe I actually "rule" over anyone. :D

[The Red Next Door]

I am lower middle class.

[Raúl Duke]

My family would be considered middle, but they did in moments have something close to somewhat upper middle lifestyle due to credit. But now credit is in the shitter.

I on the other hand, go to an $8 an hour part-time job and mostly support myself with that money. The only things that I haven't paid for is my tuition/books. I used a federal loan to pay for student housing. Where does that place me?

"Lower middle"? Working class?

[Drace]

All you have to do is send your $35. and you are a member--no questions asked.Infiltration from the inside? Why'd you join anyway?


Beyond that--I seriously have no idea which class I belong to. Maybe upper middle--I don't believe I actually "rule" over anyone.

Well, whats your income?

[Ele'ill]

I want to change my vote to 'Classless'.

[Havet]

What's a classless person? I don't understand it

[Ele'ill]

What's a classless person? I don't understand it

Someone that doesn't want to take part or be associated with the current system. Perhaps they live off the grid and don't associate with the current system.

Would a tribe in South America be upper, middle or lower class?

[whore]

this poll is confused.

from a marxist perspective lumpen-proletariat and peasants are different, and "lower" and "middle" class means nothing.

you can also be a rich prol. from a marxian perspective, "Aristocratic/Rich/Ruling"should probably be "capitalist", 'cause you know, there aren't many feudal lords around now.

and again, looking at it from a marxist perspective, "Classless/Other"doesn't make sense. you either have a relationship to the means of production, or you don't. if oyu don't, you are lumpen.
---

from an "income" perspective,
"working class" should be lower class, and there is no such thing as "lumpen". instead, i would suggest, it would probably be more "criminal". and, everyone has an income, and thus classless doesn't apply.

---

from an anarchist perspective, (at least mine) there are multiple "ruling classes" vieing for control. there are also multiple other classes that aren't in control, and don't have that possibility in todays system. they don't have power.

again though, everyone is a member of a class. (me, i don't have power, just like the vast majority of you)

[Demogorgon]

I'm the King of Spain.

This poll is of little use, because it doesn't look at class properly. The "middle class" is an extremely flawed idea indeed, especially since it is used in political discourse in order to make as many working class people as possible identify with a different class so as to back anti-worker policies.

You see this particularly in America where everybody above the absolute worst off are meant to see themselves as "middle class" or on the road to being so. This means they can be told that policies that benefit the working class will actually hurt them and policies contrary to their real interests will benefit them.

It is one of the most effective tools out there for promoting false consciousness.

[RGacky3]

I put myself in working class, because I've always been a wage worker with sometimes "skilled," sometimes "unskilled" jobs. I come from a middle class family though, my father was a professional, i.e. petty-bourgeouis. There is NO ONE here from the ruling class, infact I doubt if anyone here actually knows people form the ruling class, maybe Bud struggle.

But Bud Struggle is'nt ruling class, he's probably upper middle class, or just upper class (depending on how big his buisiness is).


Not me. I'm a working man. I work alongside my brother workers in the factory that I own.

HAHAHAHAHHAHA.

But I agree, the poll is flawed, the real devide is those who get told what to do and do it for a wage (the vast majority of people), people who do what they want and make money with what they have (the middle class, a decent sized minority), and the people that tell people what to do (the Capitalist class, tiny minority), then you have people who tell people what to do, and have massaive amounts of influence on society (the ruling class. even tinier minority).

[Invader Zim]

If lenin is to be taken seriously (not something I would typically do) then I would guess that I am a part of the Intelligentsia, on the basis that a large chunk of my family are teachers and I am in higher education.

[Tablo]

This poll needs to be redone. All the classes are messed up.

[Ele'ill]

Self identification is a difficult task. :rolleyes:

[Kléber]

It should be redone according to the Maoist state discrimination system.

Five Red Categories:
Poor or Lower Middle Peasant
Worker
Revolutionary Soldier
Revolutionary Cadre
Dependent of Revolutionary Martyr(s)

Nine Black Categories:
Landlord
Rich Peasant
Reactionary
Bad Element
Rightist
Traitor
Spy
Capitalist-roader in a position of authority
THE STINKING NINTH CATEGORYIntellectual

[ComradeMan]

This poll needs to be redone. All the classes are messed up.


Why do you say messed up? I tried to just give a basic and/or broad class outline... How would you chanhe it?

[Bud Struggle]

Ok, according to Mao--I'm a Bad Element. :D

[Il Medico]

and a current member of Communist Party of the United States.
Which once again proves why the American left is in so much trouble, Bud is part of the largest "communist" party in America. :(

[Raúl Duke]

Ok, according to Mao--I'm a Bad Element. :D

According to Mao's Bloc of 4 classes, you might still be ok. It states that national capitalists are accepted.

[Dr Mindbender]

I don't believe I actually "rule" over anyone. :D

I'm sure your employees would disagree.

[Dr Mindbender]

Which once again proves why the American left is in so much trouble, Bud is part of the largest "communist" party in America. :(

Although the CPUSA is probably the closest thing America has to a labour party, and considering the state of Britains that explains a lot.

[ComradeMan]

What's interesting here is that only ONE person has described him or herself as classless....

Hmm.....

[Bud Struggle]

What's interesting here is that only ONE person has described him or herself as classless....

Hmm.....

"And you think your so clever and classless and free
But you're still fuckin' peasents as far as I can see."--John Lennon

;)

[ComradeMan]

"And you think your so clever and classless and free
But you're still fuckin' peasents as far as I can see."--John Lennon

;)


Wise words.... I think we are on the same wave-length with this one!
;)

[ComradeMan]

Damn it, working class seem to be slightly outnumbered!!!!

[Bud Struggle]

Damn it, working class seem to be slightly outnumbered!!!!

Wait till the Revolution and you'll really see how outnumbered they are.
:D :D :D

[Kwisatz Haderach]

There is no such thing as the "middle class." The section of the population usually called "middle class" is made up mostly of workers, with a few people from other classes thrown in (e.g. the petty bourgeoisie, some of the lower sections of the bourgeoisie, and perhaps the group that some people call "the managerial class" - if you agree that it is a class).

[Bud Struggle]

There is no such thing as the "middle class." The section of the population usually called "middle class" is made up mostly of workers, with a few people from other classes thrown in (e.g. the petty bourgeoisie, some of the lower sections of the bourgeoisie, and perhaps the group that some people call "the managerial class" - if you agree that it is a class).

There is no such things as the petty bourgeoise and the proletariat etc. All of these names and titles are arbitrary and only related to reality if one wants to prove some sort of point.

They are an idealist representation of reality--nothing more.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Homer Simpson produced the best satire of the totally meaningless way classes are defined in the US when he said that he was "upper lower middle class".

I'm a worker. If you want to classify me in the American style, I would be lower lower middle class or upper lower middle class. I rent and live paycheck to paycheck but I'm not starving - every once in a while a cavity or sickness or unexpected expense put me into debt. My parents both worked in union jobs - the job that my (now retired) dad used to do is now non-union and none has the benefits that my dad had.

Personally I have no stake in this system and things have only gotten noticeably worse and more difficult for my friends and family - even during the "boom-times" of the 90s.

[RGacky3]

There is no such things as the petty bourgeoise and the proletariat etc. All of these names and titles are arbitrary and only related to reality if one wants to prove some sort of point.

They are an idealist representation of reality--nothing more.

Well, at least there is an objective way to measure Marxist style class.

[Belisarius]

i personally am still a student, but my parents are actually quite rich (sold their business). it's not like i or they rule anything, but we are quite upper class i would say.

[Comrade Anarchist]

Middle Class:cool:

[The Ben G]

Upper Middle Class

[Nolan]

Petit-bourgeoisie family. Though dad's pretty left-wing.

[Meridian]

Someone that doesn't want to take part or be associated with the current system. Perhaps they live off the grid and don't associate with the current system.
Ah, that class is called the Delusional Middle Class.

[Invincible Summer]

The problem with the mainstream (non-Marxist) definition of "class" is that it focuses on income, not the relationship to production. In other words, one's place in an income bracket determines one's class.

That being said, I'm a student that works piecemeal part-time jobs, so working class. But my parents would be considered "middle" or "upper middle" class I suppose.

[The Ben G]

Petit-bourgeoisie family. Though dad's pretty left-wing.

My dad is pretty left wing, too.

[Bud Struggle]

I come from a pretty right wing family (Kids supporting Romney.) I tend to be a Social Democrat.

[Nolan]

I come from a pretty right wing family (Kids supporting Romney.) I tend to be a Social Democrat.

Why are you in the CPUSA? lol

I guess they're like the Brit labour party only not popular so it makes sense.

[Bud Struggle]

Why are you in the CPUSA? lol


They took my $35 and gave me a card. I belong to a lot of "lesser" Commie organizations, too. I once even met with my IWW brothers as a member and sang some songs with them--the Internationale being one.

I'm a Communist. Hell, we all have Capitalist "day jobs" don't we?

[Nolan]

They took my $35 and gave me a card. I belong to a lot of "lesser" Commie organizations, too. I once even met with my IWW brothers as a member and sang some songs with them--the Internationale being one.

I'm a Communist. Hell, we all have Capitalist "day jobs" don't we?

I'll assume you're being sarcastic. Social Democrats can't be commies.:lol:

[Glenn Beck]

It's impossible to answer this poll because it uses both Marxian (relation to ownership of capital) and Weberian (income, consumption, social status) definitions of class. It also does weird things like equate lumpenproletarian to peasant and Aristocrat to ruling class (which, unless you live in Bhutan or something, would be bourgeois and not aristocrat)

So because of these factors, I checked off "Aristocrat" just to fuck with you.

[Bud Struggle]

I'll assume you're being sarcastic. Social Democrats can't be commies.:lol:

A bit--it's a lot closer to Communism than my "Brothers" at my Country Club. ;) :D

But I do believe that Social Democracy--or in my case I think really --Christian Socialist seems to be an honest and worthwhile path to the future.

I'd like to try it in America.

[deLarge]

The problem here is that the popular class distinctions, such as in the poll, are based on sheer amount of wealth--they ought to be based on the relationship to the means of production. Otherwise, you can have upper class proletariat and middle class bourgeoisie and other such confusions.

[RGacky3]

I'm a Communist. Hell, we all have Capitalist "day jobs" don't we?

No, I don't think anyone here is a Capitalist, except for you.


But I do believe that Social Democracy--or in my case I think really --Christian Socialist seems to be an honest and worthwhile path to the future.

I'd like to try it in America.

If you really want social democracy, and a chrisitan socialism (I'm supposeing a socialism based on gospel values) then don't vote for obama and let him go, because then (as we can see) the corporations win, because they put the pressure on, with money, if you really want social democracy (which I DO, in America, at least as opposed to what we have now) you have to fight for full on communist-anarchism, if you want a public option you have to fight for single payer.

Do you know why we have the 8 hour day now? Why we have the right to organize? Because groups like the IWW and the Socialist party of Debs tried their best to destroy Capitalism, the IWW got the 8 hour day and decent wages because they tried to take over industry and abolish the wage system.

The reason that is, is beause the Corporations and the Capitalist class is pulling furiously in the other direction, so to get something in the middle (social-democracy), you have to pull furiously the other way.

[tophat]

I find LibCom's assessment of class useful, and conducive to discussions on class based on common understandings:
"- Working Class: The working class consists of all the people in society who can not get by without selling our time and energy to a boss - by working. I.e. if we do not make large amounts of money from property holdings or owning a business we have to be wage labourers, or in some places in the world rely on state welfare or crime.
- Capitalist Class: The capitalist class consists of those individuals who do not have to work (though they generally do) since they draw enough income from property such as land, housing or businesses/stocks and shares. However when talking of the entity whose interests are opposed to the working class we prefer to talk of capital.
- Middle class: The middle class does not exist as an economic class. It is a sociological or cultural label, so please be more specific (e.g. “professionals”, “intellectuals”, “home owners” or “more privileged workers” if that’s what you mean) where possible, or alternatively if you really have to use is add the “cultural” or “sociological” qualifier – e.g. “the sociological middle class largely opposed the Bill”."

Thus the so-called middle classes (intellectuals, teachers even) should be considered on our side in the class struggle. These definitions also allow for a consistent class struggle perspective without the tendency towards workerism, or the glamorisation of lifestyle of the 'traditional' working classes.

[ComradeMan]

- Capitalist Class: The capitalist class consists of those individuals who do not have to work (though they generally do) since they draw enough income from property such as land, housing or businesses/stocks and shares. However when talking of the entity whose interests are opposed to the working class we prefer to talk of capital.

My problem with this is that it represents very few people. In this day and age who does not work, or won't get their ass kicked if they don't by someone else higher up the ladder? I'm not denying that power and privilege exist but I am not so sure how much they represent.

- Middle class: The middle class does not exist as an economic class. It is a sociological or cultural label, so please be more specific (e.g. “professionals”, “intellectuals”, “home owners” or “more privileged workers” if that’s what you mean) where possible, or alternatively if you really have to use is add the “cultural” or “sociological” qualifier – e.g. “the sociological middle class largely opposed the Bill”."

I disagree, what about the petite-bourgeoisie? What happened to them?

Of course these divisions are by no means hard and fast or cast in stone but I find Libcom's interpretation far too broad and general.

I do find that people's ideas about social classes are far more regional than perhaps we realise, what Americans, British people, Italians etc define as classes do not seem to correspond easily, roughly perhaps, but nowhere near exactly.

I agree with your points about workerism.

[#FF0000]

My problem with this is that it represents very few people. In this day and age who does not work, or won't get their ass kicked if they don't by someone else higher up the ladder? I'm not denying that power and privilege exist but I am not so sure how much they represent.

The capitalist class has always represented a tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny amount of people.


I disagree, what about the petite-bourgeoisie? What happened to them?

Middle-class =/= pretite-bourgeoisie. Managers and most small business owners are a good example of members of the petite-bourgeoisie

[ComradeMan]

The capitalist class has always represented a tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny amount of people.



Middle-class =/= pretite-bourgeoisie. Managers and most small business owners are a good example of members of the petite-bourgeoisie


I know what you mean, but I don't think we are dealing with the same kind of thing as Marx was talking about at the height of the Industrial Revolution in Europe and America.

Re petite-bourgoeisie, do you see them as an "economic force" or more a sociological concept- as Libcom's definition seems to suggest?

[#FF0000]

I know what you mean, but I don't think we are dealing with the same kind of thing as Marx was talking about at the height of the Industrial Revolution in Europe and America.

Why not?


Re petite-bourgoeisie, do you see them as an "economic force" or more a sociological concept- as Libcom's definition seems to suggest?

I'm not sure what you're asking here. I take the Marxist perspective on class, so to me, class depends on one's relationship to the means of production. So, the petite-bourgeoisie are people who might be able to purchase another person's labor, but probably has to work along with them as well. See: fastfood managers.

They also don't make near enough to reinvest. Nor do they own very much. So, yeah. Hopefully that began to answer your question?

[ComradeMan]

Why not?



I'm not sure what you're asking here. I take the Marxist perspective on class, so to me, class depends on one's relationship to the means of production. So, the petite-bourgeoisie are people who might be able to purchase another person's labor, but probably has to work along with them as well. See: fastfood managers.

They also don't make near enough to reinvest. Nor do they own very much. So, yeah. Hopefully that began to answer your question?

Well, perhaps it's a regional thing. Wealthy, "aristocratic" landowners in Italy are not what I would call capitalists... I would think more of the big time industrialists and media-moguls etc. Most of Italy these days would be pretty "petite bourgeoisie" in my experience, the traditional worker base is not what it was and then there is the agricultural/rural "contadino"- for want of a better word "peasant" who is not always classed as "working class" or "proletariat" in some leftist analyses.

As for the second point, yeah, that's what I meant- we agree! :thumbup1:

[#FF0000]

Well, perhaps it's a regional thing. Wealthy, "aristocratic" landowners in Italy are not what I would call capitalists...

Well, I guess. In what way are they "aristocratic"?


I would think more of the big time industrialists and media-moguls etc.

Sure.


Most of Italy these days would be pretty "petite bourgeoisie" in my experience, the traditional worker base is not what it was...

Why do you think they are petite bourgeoisie? What makes them so?

[farleft]

Lower middle

[ComradeMan]

Well, I guess. In what way are they "aristocratic"?



Sure.



Why do you think they are petite bourgeoisie? What makes them so?


Quite literally- they are aristocrats. The Italian Republic no longer recognises titles and they have no legal status as such, not like in Britain, but they still exist. Powerful families still own fair-sized estates and amounts of land despite the land that was stripped and given to the peasants after WWII. The "latifundi" are still visible in a way.

As for petite bourgeoisie- well, perhaps it's a perception thing, but the amount of self-employed people, shopowners, bar owners and small firms is a amazing. Even in the big cities the supermarkets have only just recently gained the upper hand and you still find a lot of the old traditional family businesses.... and of course crime is often a family business too in Italy:D