"Red Symphony" by Dr. J. Landowsky

[Uppercut]

I don't know if there's been a discussion on this before, but I came across an article called "Red Symphony" that tells the story of a comintern member being interrogated by the NKVD. The man describes who he is working for, who funded Lenin, what's Trotsky's objectives were, and that Stalin was more of a nationalist/bonapartist, rather than a communist.

It really scares me, as it shakes the foundations of my marxist-leninist beliefs. I've tried to block out these so-called "conspiracy theories", but this one really hit me. I don't know how to go around it.

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/sociopolitica/red_symphony.htm

The intro at the top screams "Christian-fundamentalist" and "far-right", which is true, concerning the personal beliefs of the author. But once you read the actual article, you'll see why I'm shocked by this find.

[RED DAVE]

Comrade, in general, this thing seems to be about as reliable as the Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion. While there is unquestioned involvement of US bankers, even some Jews, and the Bush family, with the rise of Hitler, this is a far cry from this right-wing shit about Lenin, Trotsky, the Bolsheviks, International Jewish Bankers, etc.

Relax, kick it back, crack open a tall one. This stuff is about as true historically as Lord of the Rings.

RED DAVE

[Uppercut]

Comrade, in general, this thing seems to be about as reliable as the Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion. While there is unquestioned involvement of US bankers, even some Jews, and the Bush family, with the rise of Hitler, this is a far cry from this right-wing shit about Lenin, Trotsky, the Bolsheviks, International Jewish Bankers, etc.

Relax, kick it back, crack open a tall one. This stuff is about as true historically as Lord of the Rings.

RED DAVE

The Protocols are not based on anything factual and that can actually be proven to be fabricated by the Okhrana. It's a joke.

The publisher cites his source here. Plus, I think it finally provides some solid info on Trotsky's connections. Do some research on Rakovsky.
It's not surprising that bankers wanted in on communism, so long as they can get their puppet in the right place. At least Comrade Stalin knew better.

[RED DAVE]

Comrade, in general, this thing seems to be about as reliable as the Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion. While there is unquestioned involvement of US bankers, even some Jews, and the Bush family, with the rise of Hitler, this is a far cry from this right-wing shit about Lenin, Trotsky, the Bolsheviks, International Jewish Bankers, etc.

Relax, kick it back, crack open a tall one. This stuff is about as true historically as Lord of the Rings.
The Protocols are not based on anything factual and that can actually be proven to be fabricated by the Okhrana. It's a joke.

The publisher cites his source here. Plus, I think it finally provides some solid info on Trotsky's connections. Do some research on Rakovsky.
It's not surprising that bankers wanted in on communism, so long as they can get their puppet in the right place. At least Comrade Stalin knew better.Comrade, are you saying that Trotsky was an agent of International Jewish Bankers.

How did this escape Lenin's notice?

RED DAVE

[Joe_Germinal]

This document is a complete forgery. It first appeared in 1968 as an appendix to a book by a Christian rightist and anti-semite called Des Griffin. Neither he nor anyone has ever produced a Russian original, and--as the website the OP linked to itself pointed out--could not have been written before 1944, three years after Rakovsky's death.

[Kléber]

Yeah, it has the distinct flavor of anti-Semitic nonsense. Supposedly Trotsky was secretly commanding half of the White army, and he told them to rise up so that he could become war commissar and gain political power. And Lenin and Trotsky got all their money from an international Jewish conspiracy. If this interview is real, all it shows is that anti-Semitic mythmaking was happily encouraged in the USSR as early as 1938. Rakovsky was making things up to appeal to the prejudices of his torturers, in a desperate attempt to preserve himself. As a diplomat Rakovsky may have understood (I don't know how much access he had to news and correspondence while imprisoned) that the USSR was losing the Spanish Civil War and turning away from the Popular Front, the natural extension of such a policy seemed to end in rapprochement with Germany, so that may explain why Nazi ideology is grafted into Stalinist inquisitorial discourse here. Forgery remains a much more plausible explanation however.

The interrogator in this account also claims to have drugged Rakovsky:

I once more gave some drug to Rakovski. The drug it was obvious, worked well, although I was only able to observe this by certain symptoms of animation. But I think that Rakovsky would have spoken just the same in a normal condition."Truth serum" is well known to be absolutely useless for getting reliable information. It generally causes people under interrogation to say anything that will make their captors happy. So these anti-Semitic rants, if not the anachronistic forgery of neo-Nazis (all the sources for this interview appear to be ultra right wing), are the product of drugging and torture designed to extract an elaborate and damning, though not necessarily accurate, confession.

Trotsky called these confessions "purely formal" and did not personally blame comrades for making them to end the torture and threats against their families. Many Bolshevik leaders like Rakovsky betrayed the Left Opposition and submitted to Stalin in the mid-30's, to gain positions in the Soviet government, only to go through the most abject torture, humiliation and murder a couple years later.

Here's more:

I must confess that if only those forces participated here, as also reasons and people, which are mentioned officially in written histories, then I must declare that the revolution is a miracle of our age. No, when I was listening to Rakovsky, I could not admit that a small group of Jews, who emigrated from London, had achieved that this "apparition of revolution," which had been called forth by Marx in the first lines of the Manifesto, had become to-day a gigantic reality and a universal threat.
Whether what Rakovsky told is true or not, whether the secret and real strength of Communism is International Capital, it is the obvious truth for me that Marx, Lenin, Trotzky and Stalin are an insufficient explanation for that which is happening.
Whether these people are real or phantastic, whom Rakovsky calls "Them" with an almost religious tremor in his voice, is the question. But if "They" do not exist then I shall have to say of them what Voltaire said of God: "He will have to be invented," since only in that case can we explain the existence, extent and force of this world-wide revolution.
Only with an international Jew conspiracy can we explain world revolution!

If you want to read more disturbing, but substantiated information about the purges, check out "1937: Stalin's Year of Terror (http://www.amazon.com/1937-Stalins-Vadim-Z-Rogovin/dp/0929087771)."

[Uppercut]

Well, apparently I'm an anti-semite now. So go ahead and report me to the administrators so I can get banned.

After all, I'm just a right-wing infiltrator...

[RED DAVE]

Well, apparently I'm an anti-semite now. So go ahead and report me to the administrators so I can get banned.

After all, I'm just a right-wing infiltrator...Again, why would you uncritically use this right-wing source? Did you make an investigation as to its credibility before you decided to rely on it?

RED DAVE

[Uppercut]

What makes you think Des is anti-semetic? Is it because the Anti-Defamation League doesn't like what he wrote on Zionism? All he's doing is pointing out that there were certain elements in the Bolshevik Revolution that helped to serve the interests of the ruling class.

But seriously though, I'm still waiting to get that message from an administrator saying "You have been banned from Revleft for...".
I don't deserve to be on here, anyway. I'm just a jackass that needs to go hang himself or jump off a roof.:thumbup1:

I sure am a waste of life, huh?

[RED DAVE]

What makes you think Des is anti-semetic?How about the fact that this right-wing, xtian asshole is a believer in the veracity of the Protocols, which you yourself admit are a forgery. Is that enough for you?

Here is your man on the Protocols:


The Protocols, I found, was a document divided into 24 sections (Protocols 1-24). These outlined an alleged plan by Jews (primarily Zionists) to systemically destroy sovereign national governments around the world. This, in turn, would create conditions that would ultimately lead to the creation of a global dictatorship headquartered in Jerusalem.

Being at that time an ardent millennialist and a supporter of a ministry the main focus of which was the spreading of a somewhat similar "gospel" (only one that substituted the name "Jesus Christ" for that of "the Jews"), I immediately sat up and took notice.

What immediately impressed me about the Protocols was the fact that many of the objectives outlined therein appeared - point-by-point - to be in the advanced stages of fulfilment (as of 1970). This was particularly true in the United States, Britain, and other English-speaking nations around the world. It seems so "unbelievable" as to be "obviously" untrue!

How, I wondered in amazement, could a document that had supposedly existed since the early 1900s be so spectacularly accurate on such a global basis. Initially, I concluded that the document just had to be a forgery, something that "couldn’t possible" have been written any earlier than, say, the 1940s or even the 1950s. It was, it seemed, just "too accurate" and "insightful" for there to be any other logical explanation.http://www.emissarypublications.com/des_griffin_news-July2007.html

Satisfied?

RED DAVE

[Uppercut]

How about the fact that this right-wing, xtian asshole is a believer in the veracity of the Protocols, which you yourself admit are a forgery. Is that enough for you?

Here is your man on the Protocols:

http://www.emissarypublications.com/des_griffin_news-July2007.html

Satisfied?

RED DAVE

He's not bashing the Jews. He's bashing Zionism, which we all know is an imperialistic, nazi-esque ideology.

The Protocols were written in an attempt to spread anti-semetism, mixing suggestive, sad realities with outright lies. However, the ruling class uses anti-semitism to their advantage and to justify Israel's crimes (we can agree on that, correct?). Thus, anyone who draws parallels between the Protocols and today's events is automatically anti-semetic.

What's worse, the Neo-Nazis claim to "know the truth", but blinded by their irrational ideology, consider all Jews to be "evil" and the Protocols to be fact. This is why so many people (especially on this site) denounce any talk of conspiracy as racist.

Just because a select few people of Jewish origin (and others, don't get me wrong here) decide they want to run the world, doesn't mean that justifies bashing the Jewish religion and race as a whole. Now are we clear that I do not advocate racism?

[RED DAVE]

How about the fact that this right-wing, xtian asshole [Des Griffin] is a believer in the veracity of the Protocols, which you yourself admit are a forgery. Is that enough for you?

Here is your man on the Protocols:

http://www.emissarypublications.com/...-July2007.html

Satisfied?
He's not bashing the Jews. He's bashing Zionism, which we all know is an imperialistic, nazi-esque ideology.No he isn't. He's bashing Jews.


The Protocols were written in an attempt to spread anti-semetism, mixing suggestive, sad realities with outright lies. However, the ruling class uses anti-semitism to their advantage and to justify Israel's crimes (we can agree on that, correct?). Thus, anyone who draws parallels between the Protocols and today's events is automatically anti-semetic.He is not drawing parallels. He is saying that the Protocols are, in essence, true.


What's worse, the Neo-Nazis claim to "know the truth", but blinded by their irrational ideology, consider all Jews to be "evil" and the Protocols to be fact. This is why so many people (especially on this site) denounce any talk of conspiracy as racist.Fucking A right we do, and you're toying with it.


Just because a select few people of Jewish origin (and others, don't get me wrong here) decide they want to run the world, doesn't mean that justifies bashing the Jewish religion and race as a whole. Now are we clear that I do not advocate racism?When you that state "a select few people of Jewish origin (and others, don't get me wrong here) decide they want to run the world," you are voicing the most cherished belief of antisemites. Welcome to their club. You qualify.

By the way, despite his protestations, your man Des Griffin is also a Holocaust denier.


I personally am not a 'Holocaust denier.' Such a tragic event may have happened. Then, again, it may not have happened as claimed by some... Before I make up my mind for sure, I would like to have certain questions answered. It that asking too much?Yes, it's asking too much as this issue was settled decades ago.

When a fellow this Des Griffin. Got any more buddies like him?

RED DAVE

[bailey_187]

Well, apparently I'm an anti-semite now. So go ahead and report me to the administrators so I can get banned.

After all, I'm just a right-wing infiltrator...

No one is accusing you of that.

Kleber, Germinal etc have shown that this document is false and anti-semitic, that is all.

[bailey_187]

He's not bashing the Jews. He's bashing Zionism, which we all know is an imperialistic, nazi-esque ideology.

Zionism isnt a world wide conspiracy taking over the world like these people thing though. The only people really ebing oppressed by Zionism are Palestinians, Lebanese etc. Sure, pro-Israel elements have sway on US politics and the USA is pro-Israel, but, if Israel stopped being a useful outpost for USA Imperialism in the Middle East, support for Israel would stop. Obama doesnt give a shit about the "Jews having a homeland", its about whats useful for American Imperialism.


However, the ruling class uses anti-semitism to their advantage and to justify Israel's crimes (we can agree on that, correct?)..

This is true. But, Nazis also use the pretext of "anti-zionism" to justify their anti-semitism. (Im not saying anti-zionism is always anti-semitic, i support Palestine etc)


Thus, anyone who draws parallels between the Protocols and today's events is automatically anti-semetic.

If you accept it is fake, and used to incite hatred towards Jews, what use is in using the Protocals today other than also creating hatred to Jews?



What's worse, the Neo-Nazis claim to "know the truth", but blinded by their irrational ideology, consider all Jews to be "evil" and the Protocols to be fact. This is why so many people (especially on this site) denounce any talk of conspiracy as racist..

Not all conspiracy theories are racist. Beleiving 9/11 was an inside job is stupid but not racist- thinking that a world conspiracy of Jews, sorry, Zionists, carried out the attacks is bordering on it.



Just because a select few people of Jewish origin (and others, don't get me wrong here) decide they want to run the world, doesn't mean that justifies bashing the Jewish religion and race as a whole. Now are we clear that I do not advocate racism?

As Marxists, we understand there is no "select few" who run the world but a whole class of people.

[Uppercut]

Well, I'm gonna give up. I've already disgraced myself enough.

I give the left a bad name. Maybe I should just admit to every conservative I know that I'm wrong on absolutely everything and that they were right. That would embarrass us even more, huh?

I'm no good at arguing with libertarians, anways, as I've lost lose every argument I have with them. EVERY SINGLE ONE! Neo-cons are no problem, but I can't debunk laissez-faire ideology. It's runs off mankind's biggest flaw and it works...
I'm all about defending "big government" and "mass murder" to them.

Does that work with everyone?

[bailey_187]

Well, I'm gonna give up. I've already disgraced myself enough.

I give the left a bad name. Maybe I should just admit to every conservative I know that I'm wrong on absolutely everything and that they were right. That would embarrass us even more, huh?

I'm no good at arguing with libertarians, anways, as I've lost lose every argument I have with them. EVERY SINGLE ONE! Neo-cons are no problem, but I can't debunk laissez-faire ideology. It's runs off mankind's biggest flaw and it works...
I'm all about defending "big government" and "mass murder" to them.

Does that work with everyone?

I dont get what you're saying? You aint giving up Communism are you?

If you are having trouble with arguing against free market economics, i could recommend you some reading.

[Uppercut]

I dont get what you're saying? You aint giving up Communism are you?

Maybe. I'm a quitter. Che would be disappointed.


If you are having trouble with arguing against free market economics, i could recommend you some reading.

I've done plenty of reading and I've got some decent arguments. But they always get the upper hand, especially when there's two or three of them against you.

[Uppercut]

As Marxists, we understand there is no "select few" who run the world but a whole class of people.

But above your average CEO, investor, politician landlord, etc., there are the masters finance capital and credit. That's all I'm going to say.

[Kléber]

I give the left a bad name. Maybe I should just admit to every conservative I know that I'm wrong on absolutely everything and that they were right. That would embarrass us even more, huh?
"You" were a different person yesterday and will be a different person tomorrow. You don't have to act so fatalistic about it! We don't want to ban you. Everyone comes here to learn. If you decide that fascism is the ideology for you, well, good luck, but we would rather convince you to stay with communism.


But above your average CEO, investor, politician landlord, etc., there are the masters finance capital and credit. That's all I'm going to say.
Yes, finance capital rules the world. Karl Marx wrote a lot about how the growth of finance capital represented a new, degenerate stage of capitalism. He called finance capitalism the "rebirth of the lumpenproletariat on the heights of bourgeois society." Marx's scientific analysis of capitalism does a much better job of explaining history, and capitalism, than unscientific racial analysis: www.marxists.org (http://www.marxists.org)

The economic interests and political actions of finance capitalists are based first and foremost on their class interests as finance capitalists and not on minor superficial features like their hair color, eye color, skin color, cultural background etc. There are male, female, white, black, Asian, Middle Eastern, Latin American, and probably even some Jewish, finance capitalists. But their race is practically irrelevant to what they do with the money. Even if they were all Jewish, they would happily sell the entire Jewish people, their own parents and children included, to Hitler if it was profitable to do so. So it is completely irrelevant what race they are and there is no political reason, except to confuse workers about who their friends and enemies really are, to be implying that finance capitalists are mostly Jews (even if that were close to true, since most of them are actually "Caucasian").

Here, comrade Lenin could say it better than me:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rj7iRwzX-A0

[Uppercut]

I never suggested that their race influenced or had anything to do with their actions. I'm just trying to point out one of the roots of antisemitism, not to justify it.
And I've seen that video before, by the way. You have and bourgeois and working Jews, yes. I'm not denying this, and I apologize if it sounds like I am.