Should the EU bail out Greece? [Archive]

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10th February 2010, 13:30

cyu

11th February 2010, 00:16

Should the EU bail out Greece?

Instead, how about, "Should Greece assume democratic control of their banks as well as their other companies?"

punisa

11th February 2010, 00:27

I pay close attention to Greece, since some reported that actually joining the EU caused the country's collapse. I'm from Croatia and we are supposed to join very soon, in a year or so.

I believe EU will bail out Greece, simply to prevent the destabilization of the southern market.
Although we still have to see how effective bail outs really are. Is it only containment of the problem or a solution?
I feel that by simply pouring extra money, things will eventually erupt on an even larger scale - and that should be the moment when the workers must take charge, they will simply be left without any other alternative.

Delenda Carthago

13th February 2010, 20:36

is this revleft.com or "anticommunism101dotcom"? In your opinion the workers(not just public domain,the strike was from hunderds of workers labor) shouldnt strike,we should just take without a complain the weight of paying for what the capitalists and politicians made for us?

Nolan

13th February 2010, 20:38

Instead, how about, "Should Greece assume democratic control of their banks as well as their other companies?"

No shit sherlock. That's not the point.

the last donut of the night

13th February 2010, 21:47

Bigger question:

Should workers pay for the losses of Greek capitalists?

Bitter Ashes

14th February 2010, 02:53

Debt isnt a tangible, material thing in the first place. Maybe it's time they woke up and realised that letting it rule the lives of millions is really rather silly.

Imagine going down to the supermarket and picking up "a box of debt". You get it through the checkouts and when you sit down at home, you find that there's a problem with your box of debt. So you go back to the store and complain:
"I bought this box of debt for £5 and it's empty. I was told that it had £20 in it"
"Ah, yes, madam. It's working as intended. It's up to you to fill the box yourself."
"What's the point in that then?"
"Well, you don't have to put YOUR money in the box, in fact, we reccomend that you put somebody elses' in there."
"And they'll just fill it up for me happily?"
"No-no. You have to force them to do it by threatening them and breaking into thier home and taking thier possessions."
"Isn't that just harrasment, mugging, extorsion and burglary?"
"Oh heavens above, no! It's only called that if you do it without the box."
"So, what you're saying is that I've just bought an empty box from you for a fiver?"
"Yesssssss. A what a bargin it was too! Goodbye!"
*The shop manager throws a smoke bomb at thier feet and vanishes to the Bahammas to live the good life*

Thing is, it really is this ridiculous...

cyu

14th February 2010, 06:10

No shit sherlock. That's not the point.

Actually, it is the point. By asking questions like the one the BBC proposed, they are deflecting discussion away from dispensing with capitalism. It is an attempt at distraction, and because the mass media is usually controlled by the wealthy, their attempts at distraction usually works. The result is that the general population ends up discussing crap issues, and real solutions to the capitalist problem are ignored.

Delenda Carthago

14th February 2010, 10:13

Dimentio

14th February 2010, 10:24

Public sector workers in Greece are striking over the government's austerity plan. What next for Greece?

(Feed provided by BBC News | Have your Say (http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/-/2/hi/talking_point/default.stm))

As said, to keep the monetary policy on the federal level and the financial policiy on the national level won't work. In ten years time, the EU would have a common taxation policy and a common secretary of finance.

Bitter Ashes

14th February 2010, 13:03

Interesting thing is,that none here made a thought what would be for the best interests of the revolution in Europe.What would help the situation most in EU?Greece leaving or staying in it?Thats the real question y all should ask.
Staying because they'd be able to recieve solidarity and support from the rest of the EU a lot easier. I can't see any advantage to real change with them leaving.

BOZG

14th February 2010, 14:05

Staying because they'd be able to recieve solidarity and support from the rest of the EU a lot easier. I can't see any advantage to real change with them leaving.

Well there's an argument that the withdrawal or the expulsion of Greece from the Monetary Union could actually begin the fracturing of the Eurozone as a whole and could potentially open up a huge schism in society.

But you'd want to be very fucking careful about how you argue that when you could potentially be telling people that you're welcoming the collapse of the Euro and all the economic ramifications that could potentially have in terms of living standards, inflation etc. because you think it will radicalise the masses and force them into class battles. That won't necessarily go down to well in every country and it's also a very simplistic argument that economic crash is equal to revolution.

Bitter Ashes

14th February 2010, 14:17

Well there's an argument that the withdrawal or the expulsion of Greece from the Monetary Union could actually begin the fracturing of the Eurozone as a whole and could potentially open up a huge schism in society.

But you'd want to be very fucking careful about how you argue that when you could potentially be telling people that you're welcoming the collapse of the Euro and all the economic ramifications that could potentially have in terms of living standards, inflation etc. because you think it will radicalise the masses and force them into class battles. That won't necessarily go down to well in every country and it's also a very simplistic argument that economic crash is equal to revolution.
Agreed. Chances are, the impact of that would actualy be the working class bieng more supportitive of the idea of a European free trade zone even more.

In Northern Europe like France, Germany and the UK there'll probably be an increased demand for manufacturing jobs again, as it becomes cheaper to produce at home than to import. Not only would that improve the lives of the workers directly, but also with high labour demand it just breeds unionisation :)

The downside of course is that the poorer parts of Europe in the East which are already struggling will be dealt an awful blow by the loss of the manufacturing industry. Class issues will become a major issue there I would have thought. That combined with the Northern Europeans regaining thier class consciousness from unionised and militant workplaces, could actualy help things.

The future is hard to predict. Could swing either way. Whatever happens though, if the Euro were to collapse, those in Eastern Europe would suffer at least in the short term, but the hope is that it'll spawn a better future. Or, as I said at the start of this post, it could just end up with mobs outside parliment waving placards saying "More power to the IMF/EU" etc, which of course would be a disaster.

FSL

14th February 2010, 16:09

Staying because they'd be able to recieve solidarity and support from the rest of the EU a lot easier. I can't see any advantage to real change with them leaving.

Yes, Merkel and Sarkozy will show their solidarity. By ordering that everyone's wages is slashed.

It would be great if we consciously made the choise to leave, restructure our debt and socialize the economy. That would of course make other people and their banks angry. But the "solution" offered seems worse and without any significant future promises.

You think we should start collecting canned food just in case?

Bitter Ashes

14th February 2010, 17:42

Yes, Merkel and Sarkozy will show their solidarity. By ordering that everyone's wages is slashed.

It would be great if we consciously made the choise to leave, restructure our debt and socialize the economy. That would of course make other people and their banks angry. But the "solution" offered seems worse and without any significant future promises.

You think we should start collecting canned food just in case?
What I meant was that if revolution looked imminent (not that I'm saying it currently is) it'd be easier to recieve support from other workers in Europe because of the open borders. Heck, the Greek state would beg for foriegn workers to break the strikes so it'd be even easier to get support in.

Mr. Happy

14th February 2010, 18:08

Greece has been bailed-out because the capitalist maggots are afraid of a revolution. It should have been left as a failure so it could restructure properly. The corporate slime, through their puppet politicians keep trying to put bandages on a gash that is not going to close ... their solution is temporary - change will come sooner or later, capitalism and globalism have already failed. It is up to us what that `change` which is coming will look like.

Delenda Carthago

14th February 2010, 18:13

FSL

14th February 2010, 19:20

What I meant was that if revolution looked imminent (not that I'm saying it currently is) it'd be easier to recieve support from other workers in Europe because of the open borders. Heck, the Greek state would beg for foriegn workers to break the strikes so it'd be even easier to get support in.

Let's remain within reasonable boundaries. EU means Commission and the ECB, not revolutionary solidarity. This wouldn't need open borders.

OCMO

14th February 2010, 23:07

In some countries, leaving the EU would increase national production. The EU makes foreign products cheaper than national, this is destroying the primary and secundary sectors of little nations that already need to import a lot. For Greece I think leaving the EU would be positive, inside the Union they are opressed by the "bigger" nations.

Bitter Ashes

15th February 2010, 02:26

Actualy, as much as I hate the EU on the economic scale, I'm put in the unusual position of sort of defending it, at least against that statement.

I thought the whole free trade agreement meant that goods produced within the EU were untaxed and that more than made up for the "loss" of profit from the ECHR (European Court of Human Rights) demanding freedom of association. On an individual national scale, some countries lose out in manufacturing, while other EU countries made gains. Most obviously the split occurrs on an East-West faultine where the West with its higher wages and taxes and insurance demands had manufacturing jobs shipped elsewhere. They could basicly either go to Asia, where although the significantly lower wages and lack of unionisation is enticing for buisnesses, or just move to Eastern Europe, where they still had mostly lower wages, along with a big tax break.

As much as I hate to say it, some parts of Europe have benefitted from the EU, when restricted to manufacturing jobs and the ECHR. Of course, the bad vastly outweighs the good in other areas and the ideal solution would have been to have not moved the jobs anywhere in the first place, even within Europe. I'm actualy from one of those areas that was devestated by the moving of manufacturing jobs to Eastern Europe, which still continues to this day.

There's the immigration "issue" too. Even when the buisnesses don't move, the right to free movement enshrined in the ECHR, means that workers from the Eastern Europe are available to add to the surplus labour force and drive down wages and bring about redundancies and unwelcome competition in the labour market. Far-right groups have started gaining courage from this as it throws them (blank) ammunition to fight thier corner, as they go around blaming the immigrants, instead of capitalism and manage to corrupt previously decent members of the working class over to thier cause with the hateful, pointless and reactionary campaign against other workers.

In short, everyone loses, except the capitalists and a few from Eastern Europe have been given the chance to make a quick buck along the way, which I totaly don't blame them for, seeing as though capitalism's made thier hell back at home. The whole situation is a bit more complex than just saying "Manufacturing jobs have left Portugal, so it must be happening everywhere".

OCMO

15th February 2010, 08:58

I understand your opinion, but just to clarify, I don't mention Portugal once in my post. But Portugal is one country that suffered with cheaper products from abroad, Greece is another, and those little countries in the East will suffer too. I know the issue is complex (it's economy), but I think everything I've wriiten it's true.

Off-tpic: I have talked about Portugal in many posts because I like to talk about things I know and not give opinions on subjects that I don't know of. Portugal is my safety net, if you will.:D

~Spectre

15th February 2010, 09:52

While it's obviously in the NYtimes interest to make economic problems appear to be the result of "bad people" instead of systematic, it is rather funny to see Goldman Sachs pop up again:

""As worries over Greece rattle world markets, records and interviews show that with Wall Street’s help, the nation engaged in a decade-long effort to skirt European debt limits. One deal created by Goldman Sachs helped obscure billions in debt from the budget overseers in Brussels. "

The bankers, led by Goldman’s president, Gary D. Cohn, held out a financing instrument that would have pushed debt from Greece’s health care system far into the future, much as when strapped homeowners take out second mortgages to pay off their credit cards.

It had worked before. In 2001, just after Greece was admitted to Europe’s monetary union, Goldman helped the government quietly borrow billions, people familiar with the transaction said. That deal, hidden from public view because it was treated as a currency trade rather than a loan, helped Athens to meet Europe’s deficit rules while continuing to spend beyond its means."