Is Israel fascist?

[What Would Durruti Do?]

I'd say they meet a lot of the criteria. What is the consensus on this?

[Raúl Duke]

I'm not sure if they can be defined as fascist...
But they surely can be defined absolutely as an imperialist nation.

[RadioRaheem84]

No its not a fascist. It's a social democratic country with expansionist ambitions.

[Uncle Hank]

Nah, but they're still douchey as fuck. I know you're probably not doing it but fascist isn't a term to be thrown around lightly. Yeah they're oppressive and a really fucky pretty much all-around imperialist cesspool, but again, no. Not fascist.

[Red Commissar]

I wouldn't say they are fascist. There are people who are within Israel trying to reach a favorable accord with their Palestinian comrades, though they are in the minority unfortunately.

It is however aggressive and nationalist regardless of which political force is in power, but this isn't by itself enough to satisfy a definition of fascism.

Now there are "fascist" elements in the political groups like you will find anywhere. Likud has some overpatriotic nuts in their party similar to say the Republicans in the USA, and Yisrael Beiteinu I would argue is so thoroughly nationalist that it could clearly be fascist if it were not for its "claim" of following economic liberalism. And then there's the National Union which I would argue is fascist regardless of how it sugar coats itself.

It all comes down to your definition of Zionism and your opinions on the Israel-Palestine situation honestly. I don't think there is a set answer, because an argument could be made either way but fascism seems to be a term that is thrown around too loosely.

[What Would Durruti Do?]

I thought maybe the clear oppressive nature against Palestinians and the religious-based segregation would qualify as such. I guess not though.

[Comrade B]

If Israel used military rule I think combined with its nationalism and racism it may be considered fascist, however it is a western democracy. While leadership is not fully democratic, it is somewhat, and the power is not held absolutely in one branch, though the secret service and military seem have a large amount of autonomy (from what I get from reading the New York Times, I haven't really looked into it myself).
There are certainly politicians within Israel who would probably find fascist ideology just dandy, but the highest position any of them holds is that of Avigdor Lieberman

[Wanted Man]

I thought maybe the clear oppressive nature against Palestinians and the religious-based segregation would qualify as such. I guess not though.

No. The USA once practised race-based segregation, but the USA was never fascist. What are your "criteria"?

[Tablo]

Fascism is an actual ideology, not a general word that applies to all racism and repression.

[Communist Pear]

It's still capitalist. But that doesn't mean you should oppose it less. ;)

[Misanthrope]

Israel does not fit the definition of a corporatist economy, so no it is not fascist.

[gorillafuck]

No, Israel is an expansionist nation that practices segregation but they're not fascist.

[Klashnekov]

Ultra Nationalistic and Imperialist

There is no such thing as a Democratic Capitalist Society.

[Sogdian]

Walls, checkpoints, separate roads, systemic discrimination and extermination of the Palestinian people, thousands of prisoners, stealing organs, destroying homes, night rades, bombardment from air, water and land, or years of blockades... Do any one of you know that ONLY 1 house was build after a year of Gaza Massacre??? and the list of crimes against Palestinians goes on and on.

Israel is something else on its own! But certainly with overwhelming Fascistic elements!

[AntiReactionZero]

They are certainly fascistic in some senses.

[Die Rote Fahne]

They are a militant, imperialistic and capitalistic nation with a population that is moving to the right.

Take from that what you will.

[What Would Durruti Do?]

No. The USA once practised race-based segregation, but the USA was never fascist. What are your "criteria"?

Well to be fair, I've always considered the U.S. to be pretty borderline as well.

My criteria are similar to those from this site. I'm just too busy right now to put it into my own words.


1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism - Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.

2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights - Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.

3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause - The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.

4. Supremacy of the Military - Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.

5. Rampant Sexism - The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Divorce, abortion and homosexuality are suppressed and the state is represented as the ultimate guardian of the family institution.

6. Controlled Mass Media - Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.

7. Obsession with National Security - Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.

8. Religion and Government are Intertwined - Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.

9. Corporate Power is Protected - The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.

10. Labor Power is Suppressed - Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed.

11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts - Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts and letters is openly attacked.

12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment - Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.

13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption - Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.

14. Fraudulent Elections - Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections. http://www.rense.com/general37/char.htm

[What Would Durruti Do?]

Fascism is an actual ideology, not a general word that applies to all racism and repression.

But a nation could still have all the qualities of a fascist nation without actually prescribing to fascist ideology, couldn't it?

[Tablo]

If you are saying it can have features of a fascist nation like fascist Italy without being fascist, then yes.

[AK]

Well to be fair, I've always considered the U.S. to be pretty borderline as well.

My criteria are similar to those from this site. I'm just too busy right now to put it into my own words.

http://www.rense.com/general37/char.htm
Hmm, I'm no expert on Israel but the US seems to meet 10 or 11 out of 14 criteria.

[Lyev]

It's so ironic that Israel, a country set up, purportedly, for the safety of the Jewish people, can loosely be called fascistic. It's sad how history sort of repeats itself, loosely, in this kind of way.

[Comrade B]

The entire criteria must be met, otherwise it is just an evil country, but not an evil fascist country.

[CH405]

No, Israel is not fascist. It is openly racist and oppressive, though.

[Yehuda Stern]

To label Israel as fascist is to misunderstand what separates it as a colonialist settler state from a 'normal' imperialist states. In the 1930s, the bourgeoisie needed fascism to destroy the labor movement in order to avert the danger of a socialist revolution. Due to the privileges granted to Israeli workers, most of them have always been loyal to their state, and therefore Israel never had a real need for a fascist party - on the contrary, the last time a fascist organization was getting big in Israel - Meir Kahane's Kach - it was banned from running in elections, because such things interfere with Israel's attempt to present itself as "the only democracy in the Middle East".

[ZeroNowhere]

"The fundamental mistake of philosophers is to think that the first question is: 'Is it true?' rather than 'What does it mean?'"

So yes, it's rather strange that most people have just given an answer without actually defining or giving criteria for fascism. We can't really discuss whether Israel is fascist if we don't have a common paradigm to have the discussion in.

[Wanted Man]

Well to be fair, I've always considered the U.S. to be pretty borderline as well.

My criteria are similar to those from this site. I'm just too busy right now to put it into my own words.

http://www.rense.com/general37/char.htm

What is "pretty borderline [fascist]"? Fascism is not some nice and fuzzy term that can be applied to every state that acts nasty. That's also why I don't think much of that list. Neither the USA nor Israel meets all of them (it is very debatable whether they even meet half of them unambiguously), and many liberal democratic nations meet several of them.

Fascism is a pretty damn specific form of government that comes into existence at specific times, something that Yehuda touched on briefly just now. Identifying a fascist state is not simply a matter of checking off symptoms on a checklist.

I would recommend looking up "Fascism" here (http://marxists.org/glossary/terms/f/a.htm#fascism) and reading up on the subject further. They don't seem to like Dimitrov (they certainly don't mention him anywhere in the link above, or on their other page on fascism), but give him a go (http://marxists.org/reference/archive/dimitrov/works/1935/08_02.htm) as well.

[mykittyhasaboner]

^Indeed. One could even read Trotsky's work (http://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/works/1944/1944-fas.htm) and get a better idea of the concept of fascism--compared to some absurd checklist, which according to some of the attributes, over half the world's states would easily qualify as fascist governments.

[What Would Durruti Do?]

I wasn't advocating it's use as a checklist. I just thought it was a good comprehensive list that a historian found to be common traits of fascist regimes.

I was just curious if a nation could be considered fascist if it shares the traits but doesn't officially consider itself such.

[~Spectre]

Based under most definitions of Fascism, Israel isn't fascist. They are veering more to the right though and definitely have some very disturbing borderline areas, such as their colonial apartheid policies, coupled with the rise of a Politician like Avigdor Lieberman, who was a member of the aforementioned fascist Kach party.

[Tablo]

I think we can all recognize Israel as a disgusting state that does not value life and murders people without consequences. They are not fascist, but they are still awful and I will be glad to see the day that their flag is never raised again.

[Wanted Man]

^Indeed. One could even read Trotsky's work (http://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/works/1944/1944-fas.htm) and get a better idea of the concept of fascism--compared to some absurd checklist, which according to some of the attributes, over half the world's states would easily qualify as fascist governments.

Yes, I didn't mention Trotsky because the pages on marxists.org already link to all of Trotsky's works on the subject.


I wasn't advocating it's use as a checklist. I just thought it was a good comprehensive list that a historian found to be common traits of fascist regimes.

I was just curious if a nation could be considered fascist if it shares the traits but doesn't officially consider itself such.

Well, do you realise that the list is neither comprehensive nor particularly good? In fact, the list has previously been used to suggest that the USA under Bush was a fascist state, like in this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAV87X5keQ0) (which I first saw around 2004; the page where it was originally posted doesn't seem to exist anymore).

Note how it glosses over most points without proper explanation. Only natural, because many of the USA's connections to these points are dubious at best. It's no different with Israel. They do share some characteristics (although things like "powerful and continuing nationalism" and "supremacy of the military" are not nearly as strongly present as in actual fascist states - many democratic states have some mild variations of these 14 points), but so do a lot of other countries.

As for your question at the end: yes, it can be, but it is not the case with the USA or Israel. On the other hand, I don't think Nazi Germany, Nationalist Spain or Chile under Pinochet ever used the name "fascist", so there you go.

[Misanthrope]

It's so ironic that Israel, a country set up, purportedly, for the safety of the Jewish people, can loosely be called fascistic. It's sad how history sort of repeats itself, loosely, in this kind of way.

I don't see the irony when fascism has nothing to do with Judaism and when it is a simple case of someone not knowing the definition of a word.

[IllicitPopsicle]

Israel is not fascist. It is apartheidist.

[Honggweilo]

I don't see the irony when fascism has nothing to do with Judaism and when it is a simple case of someone not knowing the definition of a word.
mind you that alot of ellements current isreali goverment (Likud/Yisrael Beiteinu) stems from fascist zionist roots;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abba_Ahimeir
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uri_Zvi_Grinberg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revisionist_Zionism

[Yehuda Stern]

mind you that alot of ellements current isreali goverment (Likud/Yisrael Beiteinu) stems from fascist zionist roots;

That's true, but then most right-wing ruling class parties have fascist elements in them and fascist roots (Spanish PP, Italian Northern Alliance, German CDU, etc.).

[Robocommie]

It's so ironic that Israel, a country set up, purportedly, for the safety of the Jewish people, can loosely be called fascistic. It's sad how history sort of repeats itself, loosely, in this kind of way.

I think perhaps the horrors of the Holocaust have driven certain people within Israel to be that overzealous, because they're so completely determined to never let that kind of persecution happen to the Jewish people again. And that's understandable, except it's led to this utter... travesty of a situation, it's become a disgrace. And ironically, the Israelis have now become the persecutors.

[freepalestine]

I think perhaps the horrors of the Holocaust have driven certain people within Israel to be that overzealous, because they're so completely deteliberalrmined to never let that kind of persecution happen to the Jewish people again. And that's understandable, except it's led to this utter... travesty of a situation, it's become a disgrace. And ironically, the Israelis have now become the persecutors.you say that as if it's all something new...it's been the situation for about 90 years.....

[Robocommie]

you say that as if it's all something new...it's been the situation for about 90 years.....

Well I was going to say, "The Jews have become the persecutors" but that's hardly fair to all those non-Zionist Jews, not to mention the native Jews that are like second class citizens.

[freepalestine]

Well I was going to say, "The Jews have become the persecutors" but that's hardly fair to all those non-Zionist Jews, not to mention the native Jews that are like second class citizens.you are quite right ,and i guess you mean the mizrahi are 2nd class citizens....
i was saying the persecution of the natives has been going on since zionist settlers started moving in to palestine from europe,90 years or so ago....