don't have kids - the 'communist' position?

[whore]

http://rs2kpapers.awardspace.com/theory7f45.html?subaction=showfull&id=1144798240&archive=&cnshow=headlines&start_from=&ucat=&
http://www.revleft.com/vb/paternal-rights-t40831/index3.html

So yeah, I think we revolutionaries should tell young women DON'T HAVE KIDS!
If there's a "communist position" in all this, it's that we should be telling young women DON'T HAVE KIDS!is this a position that others agree with? (i strongly suggest reading the entire article at top link first)

i agree with redstar2000 on this. it is a radical position (challanging ideas about women should have children), and, even might lead people to revolutionary ideas. (you are in control of your own life. not some man. if it is otherwise, well you damn well should be in control of your own life. fight back!)

[Lynx]

Many social commentators advocate not having children until a certain level of maturity and income are achieved. It's hardly a radical proposal when conservatives and liberals advocate it for different reasons.

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

RS2K hits the nail on the head here. Then jumps on it in case his point isn't driven home enough.

[Dooga Aetrus Blackrazor]

I don't want kids. If I have them, I'd prefer to adopt. To be honest, though, if I didn't have some hereditary genetics I don't want to pass on, I'd probably fall for the social propaganda.

My dogs, one male and one female, are fixed. I don't think they are somehow in despair or missing out on life because they won't have children. People somehow think the same doesn't apply to humans. My main worry about adopting kids is I have archaic child-rearing values instilled in me.

It's a social rather than biological phenomenon, in my view, that motivates people to procreate by choice. However, I'd also say the majority of people are having pregnancies by accident. I'd say the number is higher than reported and many people lie to save embarrassment.

***

Here is my worry about the argument proposed, and similar arguments. A black family lives in a racist community. They are wealthy, but they face discrimination on a daily basis. Horrible discrimination. Should we tell these people not to have kids, given that the lives of the children will, within a reasonable certainty, be undesirable? Ignore the issue of how a black family is rich when the community is racist. Maybe they saved the mayor's kid and live on an oil well so the mayor owes them a favor or something and lets them be rich. I don't know.

Anyway, I'm always adopting unpopular positions. If the right answer is to say, yes, they shouldn't have kids. That's fine. But something about that answer makes me feel like I would get slapped, kicked, and yelled at by most people. And maybe this is rightly or wrongly done.

If the criteria for having kids is to ensure they don't have a miserable life, perhaps, could we criticize minorities for having multiple children? Can I also criticize people for having children when they could adopt (I actually think you could, but it's not socially acceptable).

But the minority issue makes me feel strange. Poverty is another injustice that the poor is not responsible for. Is political correctness getting in the way of common sense, or am I missing something?

[Crusade]

I would never even consider supporting a movement that seeks to control who can have kids and when. No one should start a family until they've matured and are stable enough to take care of it. However, my parents had me while they were immature and economically unstable and I'm glad they did. This doesn't act as an argument against acting responsibly, but I'm STRONGLY against anyone trying to dictate who can have kids and when, like China.

[Sogdian]

I thought this was somewhat relevant to the topic
youtube.com/watch?v=QjsikRTIX28

:lol:

[Joe_Germinal]

It seems to me that these questions about what lifestyle choices to make under capitalism are rather silly. Of course, we all basically would agree that under socialism we'd pretty quickly be in a position where anyone who wanted children could support them (thanks to no unemployment, no surplus value extraction, universal maternity leave, free childcare, etc.). It seems to me however, that under capitalism, the revolutionary left doesn't need to take a position on whether or not to have children (or a whole manner of lifestyle questions for that matter) because these neither aid nor detract from the struggle for socialism.

For example, if we took the position advocated in the OP's link and succeeded convincing x number of working people not to have children, where would we be? We'd have fewer poor children but we would be no closer to building the society without poverty. Our only accomplishments would be to have convinced x working people to take an action which was politically useless, and to have pissed off all the working people who don't want to be told that they're too poor to have children.

[ls]

RS2K is wrong here if you ask me, it's no one's decision except for mothers themselves and there is nothing radical about either having or not having children in and of itself. Society expects "young mothers" to not have children, just as much as it seemingly expects them to do so, I for one have noticed a lot of societal pressure against "teenage pregnancy" and it seems wrong to advocate either extreme; the best idea is of course, for mothers to decide for themselves when it's best to have children perhaps with some independent, 3rd party analytical opinion to help her choose.

[whore]

@ls
it is not about pregancy so much (though it is also against that), but for abortion (and abortion rights).

[ls]

Please tell me how you are advancing rights for abortions by saying "young women shouldn't have kids"? That way you are just fueling the equally prominent capitalist bias against young women.

A proper anarchist position is clearly in favour of a complete decision on the part of the woman herself, no matter what her age, plus social-education that essentially means she'll be significantly less likely to do something she might ultimately wish she'd planned better (essentially this is all preventive).

[Meridian]

I guess it depends on where you live, how you live...

In Norway I think most couples could probably pull off having kids, working class or not. The "nanny state" (or whatever a libertarian prick would call it) probably would provide enough, and besides people tend to make a decent living (though not compared to the richer people in Norway).

Single moms and dads would of course have a harder time raising kids. Though, like my mom managed (more or less), that too is (barely) possible for working class people. I can definitively see this as a problem where the situation is slightly more fucked and free-market-esque.

[al8]

I think people build families, have their own children for the reason of building a support net where the society or the state fails them. Just as people build a friend network and other kinds of relationships to derive benefits such as security. Having a common goal of raising with your spouse is social glue, perhaps building a lot more solidarity than other options available can.

[Luís Henrique]

No, that's not a communist position. The only communist position is, having or not having kids is a personal decision.

Positing idiotic and authoritarian pseudo-radical positions isn't a way to revolution, it's a way to further alienation between the left and the working class.

Luís Henrique

[Wanted Man]

How would you propose people "tell" women not to have children? Like, in a personal capacity, or as some kind of "campaign"? I'm really kind of afraid of the answer. ;) I can already imagine people going door-to-door. "Are you a woman?" "Yes." "Are you working-class?" "Probably." "Don't have kids then!" :rolleyes:

It's either that rather unrealistic idea, or it will have to be as a purely personal advice, which is unlikely to affect anything, so making a political point out of it is completely useless. But I guess it sounds really "radical"... And that's basically where LH hits the nail on the head; it's basically the typical stuff about how communists should be "honest" about completely outrageous bullshit in the name of "radical" orthodoxy. It's very attractive to completely detached people.

The "revolutionary" position is that it's ridiculous for self-proclaimed "revolutionaries" to tell people how they should run their personal lives in a capitalist society.

[gorillafuck]

How about, women have children when they feel they're mature enough and if they want children?

[Le Libérer]

In a Communist society women would have the education to make informed decisions about reproductivity. The bottom line is women should always have complete autonomy over their bodies. No other man or woman should ever make the decision for them.

What rs2k is saying here, is dont have children until you are prepared to take care of them. Thats not the case here in the US. Because of lack of sex education, young men and women have more unwanted pregnancies, STDs including a rise in HIV infection, like no other time before now.

I actually had this argument with rs2k yesterday when I went to see him. So I have a bit more insight as to where he was coming from. And he agrees, in the end, the decision is always ups to the woman.

[RedStarOverChina]

In a Communist society women would have the education to make informed decisions about reproductivity. The bottom line is women should always have complete autonomy over their bodies. No other man or woman should ever make the decision for them.

What rs2k is saying here, is dont have children until you are prepared to take care of them. Thats not the case here in the US. Because of lack of sex education, young men and women have more unwanted pregnancies, STDs including a rise in HIV infection, like no other time before now.

I actually had this argument with rs2k yesterday when I went to see him. So I have a bit more insight as to where he was coming from. And he agrees, in the end, the decision is always ups to the woman.
You have kids, and RS2K doesn't. What's that like? Does he regret not having kids? Obviously it seems better to have kids to take care of you when you fall ill.

I don't want kids, but I just want to know if i'll end up regreting it. I'll probably want to adopt someone when I'm in my late 30s.

[Le Libérer]

I was very young when I had my children and I've never regretted having them. In fact I cant imagine life without them. Its an experience that is indiscribable.

But up until that point, I was convinced I never would want them.

Being the activist rs2k was in his younger days, and the lifestyle he led, I dont think it was appropriate for children. But from the stories he has told me, his friends always asked him to babysit their children, which I can see, he is very kind and gentle in real life, I would have loved to have a Uncle rs2k for my kids. :) He is truly a remarkable man.

And he doesnt need offspring at this point in his life. He has me and the kids here on revleft to watch after him in his old age.

[FreeFocus]

If possible, I think people should consider that they're bringing life into what is, by and large, a shithole. At the very least, parents should strive for emotional maturity and financial responsibility prior to even thinking about having children. There are social realities that either discourage or disallow appropriate education or consideration, and some people around the world still have children so that they will help with physical labor (e.g. farming).

[RedStarOverChina]

And he doesnt need offspring at this point in his life. He has me and the kids here on revleft to watch after him in his old age.
That's good to know. :)

Does he still eat a lot of fried chicken? I've put a stop to it after gaining ten pounds from my all-fried-chicken-diet.

[Le Libérer]

That's good to know. :)

Does he still eat a lot of fried chicken? I've put a stop to it after gaining ten pounds from my all-fried-chicken-diet.
He doesnt eat any of the food at the nursing home. He hates institutional food. So unless I go and buy him fried chicken, he doesnt eat it.

He does drink alot of boost, which is a nutritional drink, its full of vitamins and minerals. And I have his little fridge full of stuff to make sandwiches. I also pick up pastries from the day old store so he can have snacks.

He doesnt want for much as far as food, now that I am working, I pretty much can afford that stuff without asking for donations.

All he really lacks is reading material, theres never enough, and I bring him several different magazines when I visit him.

[Dr Mindbender]

if our parents had taken the 'dont have kids because of x, y and z' philosophy, none of us would be sitting sharing this thread.

The problem in my view and experience isnt women having kids but neglegent dads who fuck off and dont contribute. To me the joys of being a parent transcends the material. My child is a rock of inspiration to me; something to fight for. Also on a selfish note, yes i do find it gratifying to propagate my DNA.

[counterblast]

Men debating on a site comprised almost exclusively of men about whether having or not having kids is "misogynist" or not...

My favorite. :rolleyes:

[whore]

i guess i really should clarify my position. the communist position is not to "tell" people (particularly young women) not to have kids. but to advice that it isn't a good idea unless they know what it's all about. i guess what Jolly Rogera (http://www.revleft.com/vb/../member.php?u=9246) saying that redstar2000 said is probably what i meant.

as i said earlier, it is about giving control to women for their own lives. having to look after children takes a lot of that control away.

[Le Libérer]

Men debating on a site comprised almost exclusively of men about whether having or not having kids is "misogynist" or not...

My favorite. :rolleyes:
Thank Gd there are men on this site debating whether or not having kids is misogynist or not. Its a good thing imo. It would be worse if they didnt bother.

[Outinleftfield]

There are problems with overpopulation but my all means...

ADOPT ADOPT ADOPT

We must pass our ideas down to the next generation. Reactionary conservatives have too many kids. Some might reject their parents' views but not enough that this isn't a major advantage for them.

[La Comédie Noire]

People will have kids and unfortunately due to material conditions some kids will be stuck with asshole parents. When I was growing up, my mom would beat me quite bad, but when I thought of telling people at school I got scared because I knew it could be so much worse. Economic uncertainty binds us into these units we call families, like everything else under Capitalism it's not a free association, you just have to hope you get lucky and either wind up "blessed" with good parents or an avenue of escape.

Truth be told I hated my mother and I always felt guilty for it, but looking back at it now she wasn't mentally well and never should have been allowed to take care of children in the first place. I loved her in my own way, but it was difficult, something i don't think love should be. You should need someone because you love them,not love someone because you need them.

Good old Red Star though! Glad to see his work isn't just collecting dust on Award space!

[Dr Mindbender]

There are problems with overpopulation

No there isn't. The entire population of the world could fit on a caribbean island if you stood them shoulder to shoulder. 'Overpopulation' is a bourgeoisie myth concocted to partly justify border controls and the outrageous mis-distribution of the world's resources.

We tell the developing world ''You want more food? Tough! Have fewer babies instead!''.

[Bitter Ashes]

Whether somebody wants kids is up to them. Nobody other's buisness. Can you imagine how controversial it would be for the state to tell women that they MUST be mothers? Quite rightly too. A woman's body is her own to deciede what to do with. I wouldnt ask for permission to have a piercing, or a tattoo, why a kid?

I personaly think it's very sad that there are so few Mothers within politics. Maternal behavior can be very progressive, because not only do they think they're fighting for thier own rights, but the rights of thier children too. Your kids deserve a socialist world. Don't let them down, mums!

[Outinleftfield]

Checked my sources. You're right. Still I think the second part about how conservatives have too many babies and revolutionaries need to raise more is true. But both adoption and having babies can help.

[Quail]

I don't really see how communists can have a set position on reproduction :confused:
It's the woman/couple's choice whether or not to have children.

Also, people are saying that people should not have children unless they are financially able to support them/mature enough to support them, but a lot of pregnancies are unwanted, and there is also a chance that a woman may find out she is pregnant when the option of abortion is no longer there. So unless you force people to be sterilised (which would be pretty ridiculous), you can't really stop people from having children. Even if everyone uses contraception and is responsible, there is still the possibility of the contraception failing.