Nathalie Cardone... [Archive]

Skooma Addict

7th February 2010, 19:42

I think he is. If you're going to assert a position the burden is on you to defend it.

I'm in no doubt that the deeds of Batista and his goons who Che helped overthrow were much worse, but strangely 'ex-anarchists' like yourself have a selective recollection of history.

Ok, I was unaware that this was controversial? You don't think that Che murdered people? Well that partly explains all the wannabe hardcore rebel kids who like to wear Che shirts.

180 DOCUMENTED VICTIMS OF CHÉ GUEVARA IN CUBA: 1957 TO 1959

From: Armando M. Lago, Ph.D., Cuba. The Human Cost of Social Revolutions, unedited

Manuscript pending publication. Information provided by the TRUTH RECOVERY ARCHIVE ON CUBA

an undertaking of the FREE SOCIETY PROJECT, INC.
The exact number of Che’s Cuban victims has not been verified, but include people he personally executed and those put to death under his orders. Che’s biographers consistently report that he sent thousands to the firing squad. Over 4,000 deaths are documented to have taken place in Cuba, mostly firing squad execution, in the first three years after Fidel Castro’s takeover (1959-1962). Che Guevara was one of the regime’s chief executioners during this period and is said to have acknowledged ordering "several thousand" executions. All took place without affording the victims fair trials and due process of law. The following list is not exhaustive and only includes cases for which historic reference is known. Names are cited as reported; dates and additional details for most are available. Combat deaths caused by Che in Cuba
and killings in countries where he led guerrilla operations have not been tallied.

14 executed by Che in the Sierra Maestra during the anti-Batista guerrilla struggle (1957-1958):
1. ARISTIDIO 2. MANUEL CAPITÁN 3. JUAN CHANG 4. “BISCO” ECHEVARRÍA 5. ECHEVARRÍA BROTHER #1
6. ECHEVARRÍA BROTHER #2 7. EUTIMIO GUERRA 8. DIONISIO LEBRIGIO 9. JUAN LEBRIGIO 10. “EL NEGRO” NÁPOLES
11. “CHICHO” OSORIO 12. ONE UNIDENTIFIED TEACHER (“EL MAESTRO) 13.-14. 2 UNIDENTIFIED PEASANTS
10 executed in Santa Clara at Che’s orders in only two days (January 1959):
1. RAMÓN ALBA 2. JOSÉ BARROSO 3. JOAQUÍN CASILLAS 4. FÉLIX CRUZ 5. ALEJANDRO GARCÍA OLAYÓN
6. HÉCTOR MIRABAL 7. J. MIRABAL 8. FÉLIX MONTANO 9. CORNELIO ROJAS 10. VILALLA
156 executed at La Cabaña Fortress prison at Che Guevara’s orders:
1. VILAU ABREU 2. HUMBERTO AGUIAR 3. GERMÁN AGUIRRE 4. PELAYO ALAYÓN 5. JOSÉ LUIS ALFARO
6. PEDRO ALFARO 7. MARIANO ALONSO 8. JOSÉ ALVARO 9. ANIELLA 10. MARIO ARES POLO
11. JOSÉ RAMÓN BACALLAO 12. CEVERINO BARRIOS 13. EUGENIO BÉCQUER 14. FRANCISCO BÉCQUER
15. RAMÓN BISCET 16. ROBERTO CALZADILLA 17. EUFEMIO CANO 18. JUAN CAPOTE FIALLO
19. ANTONIO CARRALERO 20. GERTRUDIS CASTELLANOS 21. JOSÉ CASTAÑO QUEVEDO 22. RAÚL CASTAÑO
23. EUFEMIO CHALA 24. JOSÉ CHAMACE 25. JOSÉ CHAMIZO 26. RAÚL CLAUSELL 27. ÁNGEL CLAUSELL
28. DEMETRIO CLAUSELL 29. JOSÉ CLAUSELL 30. ELOY CONTRERAS 31. ALBERTO CORBO 32. EMILIO CRUZ
33. JUAN FELIPE CRUZ 34. ORESTES CRUZ 35. HUMBERTO CUEVAS 36. CUNY 37. ANTONIO DE BECHE
38. MATEO DELGADO 39. ARMANDO DELGADO 40. RAMÓN DESPAIGNE 41. JOSÉ DÍAZ CABEZAS
42. ANTONIO DUARTE 43. RAMÓN FERNÁNDEZ OJEDA 44. RUDY FERNÁNDEZ 45. FERRÁN ALFONSO
46. SALVADOR FERRERO 47. VICTOR FIGUEREDO 48. EDUARDO FORTE 49. UGARDE GALÁN
50. RAFAEL GARCÍA MUÑIZ 51. ADALBERTO GARCÍA 52. ALBERTO GARCÍA 53. JACINTO GARCÍA
54. EVELIO GASPAR 55. ARMADA GIL Y DIEZ CABEZAS 56. JOSÉ GONZÁLEZ MALAGÓN 57. EVARISTO GONZÁLEZ
58. EZEQUIEL GONZÁLEZ 59. SECUNDINO GONZÁLEZ 60. RICARDO GRAO 61. BONIFACIO GRASSO
62. RICARDO JOSÉ GRAU 63. OSCAR GUERRA 64. JULIÁN HERNÁNDEZ 65. FRANCISCO HERNÁNDEZ LEYVA
66. ANTONIO HERNÁNDEZ 67. GERARDO HERNÁNDEZ 68. OLEGARIO HERNÁNDEZ 69. SECUNDINO HERNÁNDEZ
70. JESÚS INSUA 71. ENRIQUE IZQUIERDO 72. OSMÍN JORRÍN 73. SILVINO JUNCO 74. ENRIQUE LA ROSA
75. IGNACIO LASAPARLA 76. JESÚS LAZO 77. ARIEL LIMA LAGO 78. RAÚL LÓPEZ VIDAL 79. ARMANDO MAS
80. ENERLIO MATA 81. ELPIDIO MEDEROS 82. JOSÉ MEDINAS 83. JOSÉ MESA 84. FIDEL MESQUÍA
85. JUAN MILIÁN 86. FRANCISCO MIRABAL 87. LUIS MIRABAL 88. ERNESTO MORALES 89. PEDRO MOREJÓN
90. DR. CARLOS MUIÑO, MD. 91. CÉSAR NECOLARDES ROJAS 92. VICTOR NECOLARDES ROJAS 93. JOSÉ NUÑEZ
94. VITERBO O'RREILLY 95. FÉLIX OVIEDO 96. MANUEL PANEQUE 97. PEDRO PEDROSO 98. RAFAEL PEDROSO
99. DIEGO PÉREZ CUESTA 100. JUAN PÉREZ 101. DIEGO PÉREZ CRELA 102. JOSÉ POZO 103. EMILIO PUEBLA
104. ALFREDO PUPO 105. SECUNDINO RAMÍREZ 106. RAMÓN RAMOS 107. PABLO RAVELO 108. RUBÉN REY
109. MARIO RISQUELME 110. FERNANDO RIVERA 111. PABLO RIVERA 112. MANUEL RODRÍGUEZ
113. MARCOS RODRÍGUEZ 114. NEMESIO RODRÍGUEZ 115. PABLO RODRÍGUEZ 116. RICARDO RODRÍGUEZ
117. JOSÉ SALDARA 118. PEDRO SANTANA 119. SERGIO SIERRA 120. JUAN SILVA 121. FAUSTO SILVA
122. ELPIDIO SOLER 123. JESÚS SOSA BLANCO 124. RENATO SOSA 125. SERGIO SOSA 126. PEDRO SOTO
127. OSCAR SUÁREZ 128. RAFAEL TARRAGO 129. TEODORO TELLEZ CISNEROS 130. FRANCISCO TELLEZ
131. JOSÉ TIN 132. FRANCISCO TRAVIESO 133. LEONARDO TRUJILLO 134. TRUJILLO 135. LUPE VALDÉS BARBOSA
136. MARCELINO VALDÉS 137. ANTONIO VALENTÍN 138. MANUEL VÁZQUEZ 139. SERGIO VÁZQUEZ 140. VERDECIA
141. DÁMASO ZAYAS
*15 additional executions were reported by The New York Times (on 2/6/59, 2/8/59, 3/16/59, and 4/2/59), but names are unknown.

ComradeMan

7th February 2010, 19:54

Is there a list of Fulgencio Batista's victims anywhere on US based Free Cuba websites etc... ;)

Skooma Addict

7th February 2010, 20:07

Is there a list of Fulgencio Batista's victims anywhere on US based Free Cuba websites etc... ;)

I don't have any statistics, but I am sure that Batista was a murderer as well. But people don't have pictures of him on their shirts. I also highly doubt this Nathalie imbecile knows that her song is honoring a criminal who murdered a 14 year old boy.

ComradeMan

7th February 2010, 20:15

I don't have any statistics, but I am sure that Batista was a murderer as well. But people don't have pictures of him on their shirts. I also highly doubt this Nathalie imbecile knows that her song is honoring a criminal who murdered a 14 year old boy.

A 14 year old boy accused of being an informant and quite capable of pulling a trigger... rough stuff, wars are not nice. I do not condone this, if it's true but then that's what wars do to people...

But most of the people on the victim lists were Batista's men or in his employ, other probably connected to the CIA.

The fact is though, that El Che is venerated throughout South America, in Argentine some peasants have even unofficially canonised "Santo Che" and that when his remains were returned to Cuba for a funeral older people broke down in tears....

Demogorgon

7th February 2010, 20:27

Now while the death penalty is to be sure a despicable thing and Che Guevara was definitely wrong to take part in these executions, the fact is that such things are not normally considered the same as mass murder and moreover many figures admired by the mainstream did the same or worse.

The thing that strikes me when Libertarians attack Guevara (and it is usually them) is that they are going for a figure that isn't generally regarded as a monster. After all mainstream capitalist society has never sought to be too critical of him, rather capitalists stick his face on T-Shirts and flog them off to people daft enough to think it is a good means of rebelling and so forth. They don't do that with other Revolutionary figures after all.

Which indicates to me that the Libertarians attacking him are being a little disingenuous and are doing it for the fun of being iconoclasts.

The Red Next Door

7th February 2010, 20:32

Is she supposed to be a socialist or something? I don't understand why she would dedicate a song to a mass murderer.
You never know George Washigton could of mass murderer a bunch of people, actually he did, the Native Americans when he was in the British Army.

Skooma Addict

7th February 2010, 20:33

A 14 year old boy accused of being an informant and quite capable of pulling a trigger... rough stuff, wars are not nice. I do not condone this, if it's true but then that's what wars do to people...

But most of the people on the victim lists were Batista's men or in his employ, other probably connected to the CIA.

The fact is though, that El Che is venerated throughout South America, in Argentine some peasants have even unofficially canonised "Santo Che" and that when his remains were returned to Cuba for a funeral older people broke down in tears....Well when you don't have fair trials, I don't care what people are "accused" of. When there are no fair trials, claiming that Ches victims were connected to the CIA just doesn't cut it. In America and Europe at least, most of the members of the Che cult are generally uninformed, and they aren't even that up to par with Socialist/Communist political or economic theory. My guess is they are just attracted to the romanticism of it all.

Now while the death penalty is to be sure a despicable thing and Che Guevara was definitely wrong to take part in these executions, the fact is that such things are not normally considered the same as mass murder and moreover many figures admired by the mainstream did the same or worse.

The thing that strikes me when Libertarians attack Guevara (and it is usually them) is that they are going for a figure that isn't generally regarded as a monster. After all mainstream capitalist society has never sought to be too critical of him, rather capitalists stick his face on T-Shirts and flog them off to people daft enough to think it is a good means of rebelling and so forth. They don't do that with other Revolutionary figures after all.

Which indicates to me that the Libertarians attacking him are being a little disingenuous and are doing it for the fun of being iconoclasts.

Yes, Che was wrong for murdering children, I hope we can all agree on that. What bothers people like me about Che is why an animal like him has his own cult followers who are just completely uninformed. This isn't really true for Marx or other Socialist figures. There is something about Che that makes wannabe hardcore rebels flock to him. This is horribly annoying. Hopefully by exposing Che for who he really was, the upper/middle class wannabe rebels will stop worshiping him.

IcarusAngel

7th February 2010, 20:35

Like George Washington, Che had to commit some killing to overthrow a society (big surprise).

Unlike George Washington he wasn't fighting for the rights of slavery and tyrannical capitalism.

Dr Mindbender

7th February 2010, 20:36

I don't have any statistics, but I am sure that Batista was a murderer as well. But people don't have pictures of him on their shirts. I also highly doubt this Nathalie imbecile knows that her song is honoring a criminal who murdered a 14 year old boy.

Its all very emotive sure, but it doesnt prove that Che was morally worse than those he wanted out of power.

The USA thought nothing of carpet bombing thousands of Cambodian children, 14 years and below.

Demogorgon

7th February 2010, 21:31

Yes, Che was wrong for murdering children, I hope we can all agree on that. What bothers people like me about Che is why an animal like him has his own cult followers who are just completely uninformed. This isn't really true for Marx or other Socialist figures. There is something about Che that makes wannabe hardcore rebels flock to him. This is horribly annoying. Hopefully by exposing Che for who he really was, the upper/middle class wannabe rebels will stop worshiping him.
My point in my previous post was that people flock to Che precisely because he is seen as the "safe" option. The mainstream regards him as perfectly acceptable and a capitalist industry has built up around his image. Regardless of whatever the man might have been the fact is that mainstream capitalism sees little controversy with him and sees adherence to him as being no more dangerous a form of rebellion than listening to alternative rock.

IcarusAngel

7th February 2010, 21:37

You could make the same argument for Miseans by the way. Most Miseans seem to be uninformed about anything but Misean economics. They therefore are all about want power for themselves in a capitalist system, which most of them will not be able to get since they are apparently bad capitalists - promoting theories most people disagree with anyway.

It's easy to generalize. I've been to MIT once and saw the dorms and one dorm room had a flag of Che on the wall. Are you telling me they didn't know anything about politics? I doubt it.

Skooma Addict

7th February 2010, 22:36

My point in my previous post was that people flock to Che precisely because he is seen as the "safe" option. The mainstream regards him as perfectly acceptable and a capitalist industry has built up around his image. Regardless of whatever the man might have been the fact is that mainstream capitalism sees little controversy with him and sees adherence to him as being no more dangerous a form of rebellion than listening to alternative rock.

Alright, that makes sense. I agree that the mainstream does regard him as perfectly acceptable, but it then goes on to completely demonize a far more intelligent person like Marx. I am sure that the members of the Che cult aren't dangerous, it is just that they are for the most part uninformed about socialist or communist theory, and they adopt an ideology without giving it any serious thought. It is like they are desperate for others to see them as hip revolutionaries and rebels.

You could make the same argument for Miseans by the way. Most Miseans seem to be uninformed about anything but Misean economics. They therefore are all about want power for themselves in a capitalist system, which most of them will not be able to get since they are apparently bad capitalists - promoting theories most people disagree with anyway

Well for starters Mises wasn't a murderer. There are some Miseans who only know Austrian economics, which is a pity. But there are many others who are well versed in many other economic doctrines who still see the value in AE.

It's easy to generalize. I've been to MIT once and saw the dorms and one dorm room had a flag of Che on the wall. Are you telling me they didn't know anything about politics? I doubt it.

Well you kind of just made a generalization right there yourself. I don't think you have to be super smart to know much about politics. I have met some very intelligent people who knew very little about any other political theory besides democracy. Also, if the person was well versed in socialist theory, he should have picked a picture of someone like Marx or Lange to put on his wall. Not Che.

Qwerty Dvorak

7th February 2010, 23:25

Ok, I was unaware that this was controversial? You don't think that Che murdered people? Well that partly explains all the wannabe hardcore rebel kids who like to wear Che shirts.

180 DOCUMENTED VICTIMS OF CHÉ GUEVARA IN CUBA: 1957 TO 1959

From: Armando M. Lago, Ph.D., Cuba. The Human Cost of Social Revolutions, unedited

Manuscript pending publication. Information provided by the TRUTH RECOVERY ARCHIVE ON CUBA

an undertaking of the FREE SOCIETY PROJECT, INC.
The exact number of Che’s Cuban victims has not been verified, but include people he personally executed and those put to death under his orders. Che’s biographers consistently report that he sent thousands to the firing squad. Over 4,000 deaths are documented to have taken place in Cuba, mostly firing squad execution, in the first three years after Fidel Castro’s takeover (1959-1962). Che Guevara was one of the regime’s chief executioners during this period and is said to have acknowledged ordering "several thousand" executions. All took place without affording the victims fair trials and due process of law. The following list is not exhaustive and only includes cases for which historic reference is known. Names are cited as reported; dates and additional details for most are available. Combat deaths caused by Che in Cuba
and killings in countries where he led guerrilla operations have not been tallied.

14 executed by Che in the Sierra Maestra during the anti-Batista guerrilla struggle (1957-1958):
1. ARISTIDIO 2. MANUEL CAPITÁN 3. JUAN CHANG 4. “BISCO” ECHEVARRÍA 5. ECHEVARRÍA BROTHER #1
6. ECHEVARRÍA BROTHER #2 7. EUTIMIO GUERRA 8. DIONISIO LEBRIGIO 9. JUAN LEBRIGIO 10. “EL NEGRO” NÁPOLES
11. “CHICHO” OSORIO 12. ONE UNIDENTIFIED TEACHER (“EL MAESTRO) 13.-14. 2 UNIDENTIFIED PEASANTS
10 executed in Santa Clara at Che’s orders in only two days (January 1959):
1. RAMÓN ALBA 2. JOSÉ BARROSO 3. JOAQUÍN CASILLAS 4. FÉLIX CRUZ 5. ALEJANDRO GARCÍA OLAYÓN
6. HÉCTOR MIRABAL 7. J. MIRABAL 8. FÉLIX MONTANO 9. CORNELIO ROJAS 10. VILALLA
156 executed at La Cabaña Fortress prison at Che Guevara’s orders:
1. VILAU ABREU 2. HUMBERTO AGUIAR 3. GERMÁN AGUIRRE 4. PELAYO ALAYÓN 5. JOSÉ LUIS ALFARO
6. PEDRO ALFARO 7. MARIANO ALONSO 8. JOSÉ ALVARO 9. ANIELLA 10. MARIO ARES POLO
11. JOSÉ RAMÓN BACALLAO 12. CEVERINO BARRIOS 13. EUGENIO BÉCQUER 14. FRANCISCO BÉCQUER
15. RAMÓN BISCET 16. ROBERTO CALZADILLA 17. EUFEMIO CANO 18. JUAN CAPOTE FIALLO
19. ANTONIO CARRALERO 20. GERTRUDIS CASTELLANOS 21. JOSÉ CASTAÑO QUEVEDO 22. RAÚL CASTAÑO
23. EUFEMIO CHALA 24. JOSÉ CHAMACE 25. JOSÉ CHAMIZO 26. RAÚL CLAUSELL 27. ÁNGEL CLAUSELL
28. DEMETRIO CLAUSELL 29. JOSÉ CLAUSELL 30. ELOY CONTRERAS 31. ALBERTO CORBO 32. EMILIO CRUZ
33. JUAN FELIPE CRUZ 34. ORESTES CRUZ 35. HUMBERTO CUEVAS 36. CUNY 37. ANTONIO DE BECHE
38. MATEO DELGADO 39. ARMANDO DELGADO 40. RAMÓN DESPAIGNE 41. JOSÉ DÍAZ CABEZAS
42. ANTONIO DUARTE 43. RAMÓN FERNÁNDEZ OJEDA 44. RUDY FERNÁNDEZ 45. FERRÁN ALFONSO
46. SALVADOR FERRERO 47. VICTOR FIGUEREDO 48. EDUARDO FORTE 49. UGARDE GALÁN
50. RAFAEL GARCÍA MUÑIZ 51. ADALBERTO GARCÍA 52. ALBERTO GARCÍA 53. JACINTO GARCÍA
54. EVELIO GASPAR 55. ARMADA GIL Y DIEZ CABEZAS 56. JOSÉ GONZÁLEZ MALAGÓN 57. EVARISTO GONZÁLEZ
58. EZEQUIEL GONZÁLEZ 59. SECUNDINO GONZÁLEZ 60. RICARDO GRAO 61. BONIFACIO GRASSO
62. RICARDO JOSÉ GRAU 63. OSCAR GUERRA 64. JULIÁN HERNÁNDEZ 65. FRANCISCO HERNÁNDEZ LEYVA
66. ANTONIO HERNÁNDEZ 67. GERARDO HERNÁNDEZ 68. OLEGARIO HERNÁNDEZ 69. SECUNDINO HERNÁNDEZ
70. JESÚS INSUA 71. ENRIQUE IZQUIERDO 72. OSMÍN JORRÍN 73. SILVINO JUNCO 74. ENRIQUE LA ROSA
75. IGNACIO LASAPARLA 76. JESÚS LAZO 77. ARIEL LIMA LAGO 78. RAÚL LÓPEZ VIDAL 79. ARMANDO MAS
80. ENERLIO MATA 81. ELPIDIO MEDEROS 82. JOSÉ MEDINAS 83. JOSÉ MESA 84. FIDEL MESQUÍA
85. JUAN MILIÁN 86. FRANCISCO MIRABAL 87. LUIS MIRABAL 88. ERNESTO MORALES 89. PEDRO MOREJÓN
90. DR. CARLOS MUIÑO, MD. 91. CÉSAR NECOLARDES ROJAS 92. VICTOR NECOLARDES ROJAS 93. JOSÉ NUÑEZ
94. VITERBO O'RREILLY 95. FÉLIX OVIEDO 96. MANUEL PANEQUE 97. PEDRO PEDROSO 98. RAFAEL PEDROSO
99. DIEGO PÉREZ CUESTA 100. JUAN PÉREZ 101. DIEGO PÉREZ CRELA 102. JOSÉ POZO 103. EMILIO PUEBLA
104. ALFREDO PUPO 105. SECUNDINO RAMÍREZ 106. RAMÓN RAMOS 107. PABLO RAVELO 108. RUBÉN REY
109. MARIO RISQUELME 110. FERNANDO RIVERA 111. PABLO RIVERA 112. MANUEL RODRÍGUEZ
113. MARCOS RODRÍGUEZ 114. NEMESIO RODRÍGUEZ 115. PABLO RODRÍGUEZ 116. RICARDO RODRÍGUEZ
117. JOSÉ SALDARA 118. PEDRO SANTANA 119. SERGIO SIERRA 120. JUAN SILVA 121. FAUSTO SILVA
122. ELPIDIO SOLER 123. JESÚS SOSA BLANCO 124. RENATO SOSA 125. SERGIO SOSA 126. PEDRO SOTO
127. OSCAR SUÁREZ 128. RAFAEL TARRAGO 129. TEODORO TELLEZ CISNEROS 130. FRANCISCO TELLEZ
131. JOSÉ TIN 132. FRANCISCO TRAVIESO 133. LEONARDO TRUJILLO 134. TRUJILLO 135. LUPE VALDÉS BARBOSA
136. MARCELINO VALDÉS 137. ANTONIO VALENTÍN 138. MANUEL VÁZQUEZ 139. SERGIO VÁZQUEZ 140. VERDECIA
141. DÁMASO ZAYAS
*15 additional executions were reported by The New York Times (on 2/6/59, 2/8/59, 3/16/59, and 4/2/59), but names are unknown.

Hmmm, by your logic pretty much anyone who has seen action in times of war or revolution, on either side, is/was a "mass-murderer".

First off, I think most would dispute that claim. Second, even if we accept that claim to be true, it so dilutes the meaning of "mass-murderer" that it becomes an empty term, at least in terms of moral culpability because it includes, for example, people who fought against the Nazis.

So yeah... bullshit.

IcarusAngel

7th February 2010, 23:26

lol. Well it's a matter of perspective. Mises ideas led to the deaths of over 30 million people. You could argue that if Mises didn't come along with his crazy ideas there wouldn't be the general trend of extremist economics. Mises also supported fascism, which killed 40+ million people.

Have you ever heard the statement: If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem?

Che, on the other hand, generally did want a better society. His criticisms of capitalism, such as his belief that, within capitalism, there are forces that we cannot see that oppress us and destroy us is actually more classical-liberal/libertarian/anarchist/leftist than it is Marxist. Many of his other writings followed this same line of reasoning, and he is respected for this.

Also, Cuba has done better in things leftists care about, such as access to education and health care, and equality, than free-market dictatorships have.

Skooma Addict

7th February 2010, 23:40

Hmmm, by your logic pretty much anyone who has seen action in times of war or revolution, on either side, is/was a "mass-murderer".

First off, I think most would dispute that claim. Second, even if we accept that claim to be true, it so dilutes the meaning of "mass-murderer" that it becomes an empty term, at least in terms of moral culpability because it includes, for example, people who fought against the Nazis.

So yeah... bullshit.

If anything, he killed more people than listed. I am not going to argue over how many people you need to kill before your considered a mass murderer. For me, if you kill 180 people, your a mass murderer. The fact is that the deaths listed could have been avoided easily. At least have fair trials.

lol. Well it's a matter of perspective. Mises ideas led to the deaths of over 30 million people. You could argue that if Mises didn't come along with his crazy ideas there wouldn't be the general trend of extremist economics. Mises also supported fascism, which killed 40+ million people.

Um, the ideas of Mises didn't kill 30 million people, nor was Mises a fascist.

There is however documented evidence for people who Che is directly responsible for murdering.

Che, on the other hand, generally did want a better society. His criticisms of capitalism, such as his belief that, within capitalism, there are forces that we cannot see that oppress us and destroy us is actually more classical-liberal/libertarian/anarchist/leftist than it is Marxist. Many of his other writings followed this same line of reasoning, and he is respected for this.

Also, Cuba has done better in things leftists care about, such as access to education and health care, and equality, than free-market dictatorships have.

While I am sure that killing children really helped Che achieve a better society, the fact is that I will not accept any excuse for his crimes. He killed people without fair trials.

IcarusAngel

7th February 2010, 23:44

Skooma Addict

8th February 2010, 00:03

Mises ideas of deregulation certainly did kill 30+ million in Latin America. As for Che I've explained it's impossible to have a revolution without killing people, or a war. The United States (a capitalist country) kills children all the time, both legally (it is legal to execute children in the US if they are tried as adults) and illegally (US war crimes).

Mises supported fascism as a better alternative to social democracy.

Well I don't think deregulation killed 30 million people, and I don't know where your getting those figures from. You can apologize for Che's crimes all you want, but he did murder innocents (they were never proven guilty). The fact that there was a war or a revolution going on does not excuse his crimes. These were easy killings to avoid.

The thing about Che is he is so popular in modern culture which makes the whole thing disgusting. For example, this Nathalie girls song propably got some kids to think to themselves "hey, thats a cool song. I wanna be a Che supporter too." They don't actually know much about socialist economic or political theory. Not that it matters too much, since old brand Marxist theory has been demolished. The best arguments for socialism nowadays come from the Market Socialists of different varieties (not that I agree with them). Lange and Co. have set Socialist thought on the right path.

IcarusAngel

8th February 2010, 00:31

I fail to see how that's any different than Mises.org selling t-shirts with Mises and rothbard on it.

The deregulation figures come from studies of Latin American and the disasterous results neo-liberalism has had on the region. Even the effort to push them into free-markets led to 10 to 20 million deaths directly (according to the CIA) and even more deaths due to starvation, lack of health care, etc.

IcarusAngel

8th February 2010, 00:37

Not that it matters too much, since old brand Marxist theory has been demolished. The best arguments for socialism nowadays come from the Market Socialists of different varieties (not that I agree with them). Lange and Co. have set Socialist thought on the right path.

The best arguments for socialism come from the fact that the free-market is not adequately distributing resources. Any kind of socialism would be better than free-markets, such as the democratic control of the means of production, provided that people are ready to escape from their cages and enjoy the fruits of their own labor.

Free-markets are a proven failure and exploitative property has caused more deaths than any other system in history.

Skooma Addict

8th February 2010, 00:58

The best arguments for socialism come from the fact that the free-market is not adequately distributing resources. Any kind of socialism would be better than free-markets, such as the democratic control of the means of production, provided that people are ready to escape from their cages and enjoy the fruits of their own labor.

Free-markets are a proven failure and exploitative property has caused more deaths than any other system in history.

I think the free market allocates resources just fine. In fact, I think that is one of the free markets biggest strengths. The Market Socialists who have adopted neoclassical price theory and abandoned the LTV give far better arguments for their case than socialists of the past.

Drace

8th February 2010, 00:59

OMFG 180 people executed after a revolution that overthrew murderers!
How many people did George Bush kill?

I think the free market allocates resources just fine. In fact, I think that is one of the free markets biggest strengths. The Market Socialists who have adopted neoclassical price theory and abandoned the LTV give far better arguments for their case than socialists of the past.

1% of the population owns 40% of the wealth. Doesn't that say enough?

Skooma Addict

8th February 2010, 01:04

OMFG 180 people executed after a revolution that overthrew murderers!
How many people did George Bush kill?What point are you trying to prove? Che murdered people. That is a big deal you know...killing innocent people...

1% of the population owns 40% of the wealth. Doesn't that say enough?

Yea, that tends to be the result of corporatism.

Drace

8th February 2010, 01:07

What point are you trying to prove? Che murdered people. That is a big deal you know...killing innocent people...The point being that they were not innocent people and that revolution requires some blood.

Yea, that tends to be the result of corporatism. How do we have capitalism without corporatism? This is the free market.

Kwisatz Haderach

8th February 2010, 01:10

Ok, I was unaware that this was controversial? You don't think that Che murdered people?
You seem to be confusing justice with murder.
Che killed people, of course - that's what tends to happen in war, after all - but he is no more guilty of murder than any other soldier.

Skooma Addict

8th February 2010, 01:17

You seem to be confusing justice with murder.

What on earth?

Che killed people, of course - that's what tends to happen in war, after all - but he is no more guilty of murder than any other soldier.

Well he ordered the execution of over 180 people without a fair trial. Therefore, he is a mass murderer. It isn't just Che himself whom I don't like, it is all of his uninformed ignorant supporters who know far less about socialist or communist theory than most non-communists such as myself do. It is the whole pro-Che rebel culture which is based around a child killer.

Kwisatz Haderach

8th February 2010, 01:25

What on earth?
The execution of close collaborators of a reactionary regime (such as the regime of Batista) is called revolutionary justice. It is both good and necessary for the people to punish their former oppressors.

Well he ordered the execution of over 180 people without a fair trial.
Oh boo fucking hoo. Almost every single military commander in history killed more non-combatants than that. Get a grip.

Drace

8th February 2010, 01:25

Well he ordered the execution of over 180 people without a fair trial. Therefore, he is a mass murderer. It isn't just Che himself whom I don't like, it is all of his uninformed ignorant supporters who know far less about socialist or communist theory than most non-communists such as myself do. It is the whole pro-Che rebel culture which is based around a child killer.What are you talking about. People wear Che shirts thinking his just some guy with a beard. They don't know shit about him. What pro-Che rebel culture?

And killing 180 murderers without a fair trail in the aims of a revolutionary Cuba does not qualify for a mass murder.

IcarusAngel

8th February 2010, 01:26

...it is all of his uninformed ignorant supporters who know far less about socialist or communist theory than most non-communists such as myself do. It is the whole pro-Che rebel culture which is based around a child killer.

:lol:

We really need to start charging people to read Olaf's post to help pay for server costs. This stuff is comedy gold. By the way, most of Che's rebel army was comprised of people who were victimized by the tyrannical regime of Batista.

I myself don't necessarily believe in a violent revolution, because, the empirical evidence, we must admit, has nearly always led to a one party dictatorship that is actually right-wing.

I believe in the revolution of information, of the information revolution. Apparently though Olaf is only critical of commercializing ideas when Marxists do it, he doesn't care when Miseans do it:

http://mises.org/store/Assets/ProductImages/M102.jpg

(Mises t shirt with slogan on it. :laugh:)

And I need to create a thread explaining the difference between proof and opinion. Mises made OPINIONS on subjects. He never proved anything in his life. His brother made some contributions to the sciences, but they were not proofs if I remember correctly. (This is perhaps why Mises railed against scientists and mathematicians in his writings as he was jealous of his brother for having the analytical talent of the family.) Mises may have written a geometry proof but he was not a logician who contributed to logic.

Mises made statements, and they were generally poor statements. For example, his assumptions are certainly challenged in game theory. Modern economists disagree with the methods of Marx, but they certainly haven't "proven" a socialist society couldn't work. Most historians and political scientists do not agree with the theories of Mises either. He is still a fringe social scientist, some would say an outright kook.

Mises made some statements, like his statement that fascism saved European civilication, which, as shown by Ayer, are different from actual proofs in mathematics. So it's ridiculous to claim that Mises proved Marxism wrong.

Drace

8th February 2010, 01:28

Olaf: "You don't NEED to eat, you can die.":laugh:
What was the context of that?

Almost every single military commander in history killed more non-combatants than that. Get a grip.Satan killed only 10 people in the Bible, actually.

IcarusAngel

8th February 2010, 01:38

:laugh:
What was the context of that?

Olaf was giving his "arguments" in favor of slavery and property, and why they didn't need a government and are thus free. When someone said that if you can control the property you can force people to do your bidding he made that statement which represents the "free choice" people have in capitalism.

Skooma Addict

8th February 2010, 01:43

The execution of close collaborators of a reactionary regime (such as the regime of Batista) is called revolutionary justice. It is both good and necessary for the people to punish their former oppressors.Without fair trials, I refuse to accept that they were all collaborators of a reactionary regime. To me they are all innocents, including the 14 year old boy who Che slaughtered.

Oh boo fucking hoo. Almost every single military commander in history killed more non-combatants than that. Get a grip.
Well its nice to see your appreciation for human life. Military commanders who kill civilians without trials are murderers.

What are you talking about. People wear Che shirts thinking his just some guy with a beard. They don't know shit about him. What pro-Che rebel culture?

And killing 180 murderers without a fair trail in the aims of a revolutionary Cuba does not qualify for a mass murder. There is a movement among some young adults who have an obsession with Che. They don't really know anything about Socialist theory, they just like Che and they like being hip and rebels. Hip rebels who support a child killer.

But yes, killing 180 innocents is mass murder in my book. Especially since these killings could have easily been avoided. It is not like they were inevitable.

I believe in the revolution of information, of the information revolution. Apparently though Olaf is only critical of commercializing ideas when Marxists do it, he doesn't care when Miseans do it:

http://mises.org/store/Assets/ProductImages/M102.jpg

(Mises t shirt with slogan on it. :laugh:)I don't object to merely wearing shirts with pictures of people on them.

Mises made statements, and they were generally poor statements. For example, his assumptions are certainly challenged in game theory. Modern economists disagree with the methods of Marx, but they certainly haven't "proven" a socialist society couldn't work. Most historians and political scientists do not agree with the theories of Mises either. He is still a fringe social scientist, some would say an outright kook.
There is a general agreement that Marx has been thoroughly refuted. Austrian Economics has never been completely refuted. In fact, Neoclassicals have adopted some of its insights. Most economists agree with some aspects of AE, but disagree on others.

Mises made some statements, like his statement that fascism saved European civilication, which, as shown by Ayer, are different from actual proofs in mathematics. So it's ridiculous to claim that Mises proved Marxism wrong.Yes, Mises' claim that fascism saved Europe from socialism is different from a mathematical proof. Duh.

:laugh:
What was the context of that?
I was explaining why it is absurd to say that a policy is OK just because people don't NEED to obey it in the technical sense. When someone said "you don't NEED to pay your taxes, you can move." I responded with, "You don't NEED to eat, you can starve" in order to show the absurdity of his statement.

Skooma Addict

8th February 2010, 01:44

Olaf was giving his "arguments" in favor of slavery and property, and why they didn't need a government and are thus free. When someone said that if you can control the property you can force people to do your bidding he made that statement which represents the "free choice" people have in capitalism.

Lol. Umm....

Nolan

8th February 2010, 01:48

Not that it matters too much, since old brand Marxist theory has been demolished.

I can't wait for someone to explain why this is bullshit.

Skooma Addict

8th February 2010, 01:49

I can't wait for someone to explain why this is bullshit.

Me either.

IcarusAngel

8th February 2010, 01:52

I don't object to merely wearing shirts with pictures of people on them.

You said that you object to people personifying the issues, but how is wearing a t-shirt with Mises on it teaching people about Mises economics?

There is a general agreement that Marx has been thoroughly refuted.

There is no such "general argreement." There are concerns over his labor theory of value which does not discredit communism, but his analysis of capitalism.

Austrian Economics has never been completely refuted. In fact, Neoclassicals have adopted some of its insights. Most economists agree with some aspects of AE, but disagree on others.

Austrian economics teaches a lot of nonsense that people don't believe, such as that there are certain "human axioms" that are parallel to the axioms in mathematics, or just like them, and we can derive an economic system from this. This is not at all how social science works and it's not even really how economics works.

Yes, Mises' claim that fascism saved Europe from socialism is different from a mathematical proof. Duh.

All of his statements are not proofs, which is why Mises never proved, or demolished, anything.

Lol. Umm....

You were claiming that slavery and property do not require government and I took your statement from that context.

Drace

8th February 2010, 01:57

But yes, killing 180 innocents is mass murder in my book. Especially since these killings could have easily been avoided. It is not like they were inevitable.How many Taliban and Al Quaeda members have been killed without a fair trial? :rolleyes: Was Che given a fair trail before his execution? Did Batista and his supporters give fair trails?

There is a movement among some young adults who have an obsession with Che. They don't really know anything about Socialist theory, they just like Che and they like being hip and rebels. Hip rebels who support a child killer.
Lol, all Che is to you is a child killer? All of his accomplishments are nothing because he killed a child. And as if he enjoys killing little children? And didn't US occupation troops recently kill 8 children in Iraq because they were making bombs?

And whats this movement called? I never heard of it.

But yes, killing 180 innocents is mass murder in my book. Especially since these killings could have easily been avoided. It is not like they were inevitable.Killing murderers seems legit to me. But mass murderer gives the impression that Che killed millions. What do you call Hitler?

Moments before Guevara was executed he was asked if he was thinking about his own immortality. "No", he replied, "I'm thinking about the immortality of the revolution."

Skooma Addict

8th February 2010, 02:00

You said that you object to people personifying the issues, but how is wearing a t-shirt with Mises on it teaching people about Mises economics?

It promotes the economic teachings of Mises. Mises also didn't murder people. I don't care if people wear shirts with pictures of Keynes or Ricardo on them.

There is no such "general argreement." There are concerns over his labor theory of value which does not discredit communism, but his analysis of capitalism.

The LTV is for all intents and purposes dead. Many Market Socialists realized this. But yes, there can be other ways of justifying communism I suppose.

You were claiming that slavery and property do not require government and I took your statement from that context.

Go back and read it again.

Drace

8th February 2010, 02:01

It promotes the economic teachings of Mises. Mises also didn't murder people.

Thats probably because he didn't lead a revolution.

IcarusAngel

8th February 2010, 02:03

It promotes the economic teachings of Mises. Mises also didn't murder people. I don't care if people wear shirts with pictures of Keynes or Ricardo on them.

lol. And Che promoted and wrote on Marxist theory as well, and by wearing a Che shirt you're promoting Marxist theory.

I fail to see the difference between wearing a Che shirt and wearing a shirt with Mises fat ugly head on it - or a coffee mug, or a money clip, etc. etc. etc.

The LTV is for all intents and purposes dead. Many Market Socialists realized this.

Who realizes this? Many "markets socialists" also promote the LTV, like Kevin Carson.

Some people believe empirical evidence validates the LTV as well. It's by all means not dead.

It's also interested that since economics has shifted from Marxian economics to "neo-classicalism" economics has become more of a pseudo-science full of errors and unrealistic predictions, by their own admission.

But yes, there can be other ways of justifying communism I suppose.

Yes, such as the fact that a command economy can outproduce a market one (although communism does not necessitate a command economy).

Skooma Addict

8th February 2010, 02:04

How many Taliban and Al Quaeda members have been killed without a fair trial? :rolleyes: Was Che given a fair trail before his execution? Did Batista and his supporters give fair trails?

Do you think I support any of this?

Lol, all Che is to you is a child killer? All of his accomplishments are nothing because he killed a child. And as if he enjoys killing little children? And didn't US occupation troops recently kill 8 children in Iraq because they were making bombs?

And whats this movement called? I never heard of it.

What accomplishments? No, he isn't only a child killer to me. He was a deluded imbecile who murdered many people.

The movement doesn't really have a name. It is just a strange movement.

Killing murderers seems legit to me. But mass murderer gives the impression that Che killed millions. What do you call Hitler?

I call Hitler a mass murder and a supporter of genocide.

Drace

8th February 2010, 02:08

Do you think I support any of this?No, but is completely ridiculous to discredit Che wholly because he killed oppressors in a revolutionary cause.

And Batista's crimes were obvious, what the hell was the purpose of a trial? Yeah, gather support of the people and fight a civil war so you can get a fair trial.

What accomplishments?A successful revolution in Cuba that overthrew the Batista dictatorship?

I call Hitler a mass murder and a supporter of genocide.

So you equate Hitler with Che?

Skooma Addict

8th February 2010, 02:08

lol. And Che promoted and wrote on Marxist theory as well, and by wearing a Che shirt you're promoting Marxist theory.

I fail to see the difference between wearing a Che shirt and wearing a shirt with Mises fat ugly head on it - or a coffee mug, or a money clip, etc. etc. etc.

I think I explained it like 5 times now.

Who realizes this? Many "markets socialists" also promote the LTV, like Kevin Carson.

Some people believe empirical evidence validates the LTV as well. It's by all means not dead.

It's also interested that since economics has shifted from Marxian economics to "neo-classicalism" economics has become more of a pseudo-science full of errors and unrealistic predictions, by their own admission.

Lange realized this for example. But yea, there is the occasional economist who believes in the LTV, just as there is your occasional neo-Platonist.

Yes, such as the fact that a command economy can outproduce a market one (although communism does not necessitate a command economy).

Depends what you mean by "outproduce."

IcarusAngel

8th February 2010, 02:09

Olaf has basically shown his hypocrisy - claiming he opposes the superficiality of leftist culture while at the same time praising the Mises institute for putting Mises ugly mug on every kind of product imaginable, even a fucking money clip:

http://mises.org/store/Assets/ProductImages/M402.jpg

Why in god's name would they make a money clip to hold "evil" federal reserve notes in it?

http://mises.org/store/Assets/ProductImages/M510.jpg

:laugh::laugh::laugh:

Skooma Addict

8th February 2010, 02:10

A successful revolution in Cuba that overthrew the Batista dictatorship?

And replaced it with another dictatorship.

Skooma Addict

8th February 2010, 02:10

Drace

8th February 2010, 02:10

And replaced it with another dictatorship.

http://www.cubatruth.info/index.html

IcarusAngel

8th February 2010, 02:11

Lange realized this for example. But yea, there is the occasional economist who believes in the LTV, just as there is your occasional neo-Platonist.

Economics has slipped into pseudo-science; most of economics is unrealistic predictions about the capitalist economy anyway, and Galbraith et al. noted this.

Socialism does not depend upon markets or upon the LTV (which again is about analyzing capitalism), but about democratic means of production, and there is plenty of evidence from a variety of social sciences that this could work.

Socialist economics is no more discredited than Misean economics, including the LTV.

IcarusAngel

8th February 2010, 02:18

I do not oppose advertising.

That's what the leftists are doing by having a shirt with Che on it, advertising democratic-socialism (presumably what che wanted).

And as I've said, social democracy, socialism, etc., have killed far fewer people than fascism, capitalism, and other ideologies Mises supported in the first and third world.

Skooma Addict

8th February 2010, 02:23

Economics has slipped into pseudo-science; most of economics is unrealistic predictions about the capitalist economy anyway, and Galbraith et al. noted this.

Socialism does not depend upon markets or upon the LTV (which again is about analyzing capitalism), but about democratic means of production, and there is plenty of evidence from a variety of social sciences that this could work.

Socialist economics is no more discredited than Misean economics, including the LTV.

That's what the leftists are doing by having a shirt with Che on it, advertising democratic-socialism (presumably what che wanted).

And as I've said, social democracy, socialism, etc., have killed far fewer people than fascism, capitalism, and other ideologies Mises supported in the first and third world.

We already went over this.

IcarusAngel

8th February 2010, 02:27

Yes you claimed Fascism "saved" European civilizaiton, a typical Misean distortion of reality.

Wearing a t-shirt with Mises on it is no different from wearing a t-shirt with David Duke on it, who also believed fascism saved Europe, that "racial theories" explain the history of the civilization, and other fascist and idiotic beliefs Mises held.

Skooma Addict

8th February 2010, 02:27

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J33-28DmCCY

Drace

8th February 2010, 02:30

Che Gevera shirts should be more of a criticism of capitalism and how it produces useless shit in the name of profit. That was a crappy band imo.

IcarusAngel

8th February 2010, 02:33

Yes, a bunch of drugged out hippies in a band know all about what he did...

Overall I think Che was a positive force. Keep in mind that capitalism has been disasterous in Latin America, and if they had some form of democratic-socialism, they'd basically be another Europe by now.

Skooma Addict

8th February 2010, 02:36

Che Gevera shirts should be more of a criticism of capitalism and how it produces useless shit in the name of profit. That was a crappy band imo.

Yes it is a crappy band. But they at least get the idea I was making across. By the way, skip to the 3 min mark for some quotes.

Drace

8th February 2010, 02:37

"Che Guevara was an international terrorist that tried to impose communism on many countries" :lol:

Skooma Addict

8th February 2010, 02:40

"Che Guevara was an international terrorist that tried to impose communism on many countries" :lol:

Keep going. There is more.

IcarusAngel

8th February 2010, 02:44

I think Olaf is mad because Che was right about so many things: the effects of neo-liberalism on Latin America, that capitalism and free-markets would keep the countries poor, and that the West would continue to exploit Latin America.

Whereas, in contrast, logic, social science, and even economics has moved passed Mises theories, and his theories that "race" played a role in the development of civilization or that fascism saved Europe are insane.

Also, more people know who Che is than the Ludwig von Mises and david duke.

gorillafuck

8th February 2010, 02:44

I don't know if Che killed a 14 year old boy, but if he did can people stop disregarding that? Because if he did then that's completely disgusting and can't be justified by the fact that there was a revolution (it seems that to some people, revolution means justification of everything). I don't forgive soldiers when they kill children and I'm not gonna make an exception for a leftist icon.

IcarusAngel

8th February 2010, 02:48

I don't know if he did or not, but the founding fathers of America killed millions of native American children and yet Libertarians speak so highly of them. Thomas Jefferson alone was responsible for thousands of their deaths.

I guess that doesn't count though because their "natives" and according to Mises, thus, "inferior."

Kwisatz Haderach

8th February 2010, 03:06

Without fair trials, I refuse to accept that they were all collaborators of a reactionary regime.
Define "fair trials", and explain why you believe that everyone should follow your idea of what constitutes a fair trial.

Well its nice to see your appreciation for human life. Military commanders who kill civilians without trials are murderers.
So, basically, all military commanders are murderers? And I guess the military forces in your ideal society will be strictly forbidden to kill civilians? Cool. Then your society will last for about 5 minutes before enemy tanks roll in and blow you all to hell.

Those who do not believe that the ends justify the means are forever destined to be on the losing side of history.

The Red Next Door

8th February 2010, 03:07

anyway i thought the topic was about who is the singer, not about wither or not El che is a killer.

IcarusAngel

8th February 2010, 03:10

So, basically, all military commanders are murderers?

No. If they advocate Libertarian economics (or something similar to libertarian economics) - like George Washington - known as the "Town Destroyer" by the Indians, it's OK to kill people.

Or Pinochet, something of a hero on MIses forums for oppressing communists.

Skooma Addict

8th February 2010, 03:11

Define "fair trials", and explain why you believe that everyone should follow your idea of what constitutes a fair trial.

Stop trying to avoid the facts. He killed people without fair trials. Accept it.

So, basically, all military commanders are murderers? And I guess the military forces in your ideal society will be strictly forbidden to kill civilians? Cool. Then your society will last for about 5 minutes before enemy tanks roll in and blow you all to hell.

Those who do not believe that the ends justify the means are forever destined to be on the losing side of history.

They have no reason to kill civilians. I know many socialists believe the ends justify the means, which is why they killed so many innocents. The thing is the whole "end" thing never worked out either.

Skooma Addict

8th February 2010, 03:12

anyway i thought the topic was about who is the singer, not about wither or not El che is a killer.

She sings a song praising a murderer. She embodies Che as seen in popular culture. He needs to be exposed for who he was, and the idiots who wear shirts with a picture of a child killer on it need to understand who the man was.

IcarusAngel

8th February 2010, 03:15

The Founding Fathers killed as well, such as George Washington, and the American revolutionaries killed tax collectors and people working for the british without a fair trial - they burned down their shacks and things like that.

The Founding Fathers need to be exposed as what they were, racists who killed and enslaved black people and Indians, and the idiots who worship them like Alex Jones and the trolls at the Mises institute, need to understand who they really were.

IcarusAngel

8th February 2010, 03:25

Olaf's friends at Mises institute:

OK, well how about social democrats vs. Chicago school "conservatives".
Chavez vs. Pinochet?

I'll take Pinochet, every single time.

Wow. Just wow. Under Pinochet, at least 30,000+ were murdered or disappeared.

Chavez closed down a radio station.

http://mises.org/Community/forums/t/14064.aspx

That's what happens when you have an institute named after a supporter of fascism.

Notice also how they support "neo-mercantilism" (regimes that killed millions) over advanced social democracies on the grounds that conservative governments protect the right to "economic freedom."

Olaf obviously has no real concern for who supported what crime.

Skooma Addict

8th February 2010, 03:27

Olaf's friends at Mises institute:

Wow. Just wow. Under Pinochet, at least 30,000+ were murdered or disappeared.

Chavez closed down a radio station.

http://mises.org/Community/forums/t/14064.aspx

That's what happens when you have an institute named after a supporter of fascism.

Notice also how they support "neo-mercantilism" (regimes that killed millions) over advanced social democracies on the grounds that conservative governments protect the right to "economic freedom."

Olaf obviously has no real concern for who supported what crime.

I think everyone here realizes that this is a pathetic attempt to change the topic.

IcarusAngel

8th February 2010, 03:29

It shows where your concerns really lie. You support the American revolution - which killed far more people than Guevara did - and yet apparently are appaled that Che Guevara supposedly killed a 14 year old boy according to an anti-Castro webpage you found on the internet.

I think everyone here knows you don't care who Che supposedly "killed."

Nolan

8th February 2010, 03:34

Skooma Addict

8th February 2010, 03:35

IcarusAngel

8th February 2010, 03:37

lol. Notice how BucketofCows fled the forum after I brought up the fact that American citizens under 18 can be tried as adults (and thus sentenced to death)?

Why doesn't he fight against that if he's so concerned about it?

Wait, what? How exactly does you posting a quote from a discussion that I did not take part in show where my concerns really lie? Stay on topic.

It shows how you have no moral compass whatsoever.

You support George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, etc., who killed many of children and raped women and held slaves, and are pretenteding to be "outraged" that Che killed a 14 year old boy (which we don't even know if it happned or not).

You fool no one. Get real.

Skooma Addict

8th February 2010, 03:39

Let's just leave it at:

Che had people executed during the revolution (when the Cuban public was in a head-hunting mood anyway) and was no different from any other military commander in history. He *may* have had a 14 year old executed, and if so, that is a serious misdeed on his part, though understandable if not excusable considering the situation. There is a huge double-standard at work here. The reason Che is often singled out as a murderer is solely because he was a Marxist and enemy of the American ideology. This is simply anti-communist propaganda under the guise of "exposing him for who he really was."

There is no double standard. I find it hysterical that you think stating facts is anti-communist propaganda. The reason I single out Che is for his popularity among uninformed wannabe rebel kids. I also don't like the fact that a murderer has become so popular in mainstream culture.

Skooma Addict

8th February 2010, 03:42

It shows how you have no moral compass whatsoever.

You support George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, etc., who killed many of children and raped women and held slaves, and are pretenteding to be "outraged" that Che killed a 14 year old boy (which we don't even know if it happned or not).

You fool no one. Get real.

I support George Washington and Thomas Jefferson? That is news to me. Oh yea, I forgot, you get to decide what others believe. My bad.

IcarusAngel

8th February 2010, 03:43

He *may* have had a 14 year old executed, and if so, that is a serious misdeed on his part, though understandable if not excusable considering the situation.

In a revolution many 14 year old boys will die. Millions of indians died as the direct result of the founding fathers, and many were destroyed directly by the likes of Wasington etc...

I fail to see how that is any different than really executing a boy - perhaps there was no time for a trial, such is the realities of a revolution.

And of course I haven't even brought up the thousands of workers who've been murdered unjustly by the capitalist state (in the US and Nazi Germany).

If you oppose the execution of people, you would opposition a violent revolution altogether (which I do), since it would probably be required to execute people, even boys aged 14.

Nolan

8th February 2010, 03:47

There is no double standard.

Mmmmk :rolleyes:

I find it hysterical that you think stating facts is anti-communist propaganda.

I'm talking about che-hating in general. Your "facts," such as the claim of him killing a 14 year old, are dubious at best anyway. At any rate, stating one side of the facts about something while ignoring the (far worse) skeletons in your own closet is propaganda.

The reason I single out Che is for his popularity among uninformed wannabe rebel kids. I also don't like the fact that a murderer has become so popular in mainstream culture.

Most of them don't even know his name, only the iconic pic. But if you really want to rid society of killers, take all the great American and European icons out of the text books. Then we can talk about the Che tees.

Skooma Addict

8th February 2010, 03:51

I'm talking about che-hating in general. Your "facts," such as the claim of him killing a 14 year old, are dubious at best anyway. At any rate, stating one side of the facts about something while ignoring the (far worse) skeletons in your own closet is propaganda.

What? The names of 180 victims are documented. So che-hating is propaganda is it? I don't have any skeletons in my closet that I am aware of. Hopefully you wont pull an Icarus on me and tell me what I believe.

IcarusAngel

8th February 2010, 03:52

Nolan

8th February 2010, 03:56

What? The names of 180 victims are documented. So che-hating is propaganda is it?

Why don't you stop being a fucktard? The point is he was no different than any other military commander in revolution, and is being singled out for being an ideological opponent of those doing the hating.

I don't have any skeletons in my closet that I am aware of. Hopefully you wont pull an Icarus on me and tell me what I believe.

Well, considering libertarians believe the earth is flat and 9/11 was an inside job....:lol:

IcarusAngel

8th February 2010, 03:58

I don't have any skeletons in my closet that I am aware of. Hopefully you wont pull an Icarus on me and tell me what I believe.

lol. I don't judge a man by what he says, I judge a man by what he does.

If you're so concerned about mass-murderer worship, go over to Mises forums and tell them not to praise Pinochet, Videla, Hitler, and other fascists and economic systems that have murdered millions of people supposedly because they protect against the evil "economic democracy."

Nolan

8th February 2010, 04:00

lol. I don't judge a man by what he says, I judge a man by what he does.

If you're so concerned about mass-murderer worship, go over to Mises forums and tell them not to praise Pinochet, Videla, Hitler, and other fascists and economic systems that have murdered millions of people supposedly because they protect against the evil "economic democracy."

Ok something tells me you're exaggerating when you say they worship Hitler.

Drace

8th February 2010, 04:00

There is no double standard. I find it hysterical that you think stating facts is anti-communist propaganda. The reason I single out Che is for his popularity among uninformed wannabe rebel kids. I also don't like the fact that a murderer has become so popular in mainstream culture.

WOW REALLY?
Che is popular in the mainstream culture? I fail to see how you think a few people wearing Che shirts means Che as the leftist is popular.

If anything, you'd have to agree with us when we say that the amount of anti-communist propaganda is hysterical.

Skooma Addict

8th February 2010, 04:00

There absolutely is a double standard. I do not think we should stop learning from Thomas Jefferson and the founders, especially since Thomas Jefferson himself opposed the type of capitalism Olaf supports. And by the same standard I don't think we should stop learning from Che, especially since his "crimes" (if they existed) are far less great than the crimes of Wasington, and then people like FDR etc.

Olaf on the other hand is 'outraged' people discuss and talk about Che Guevara, but has never brought up his concern of the founding fathers worship of the Libertarians at the Mises institute, or Mises himself, who made racial statements and said that fascism "saved European civilization" - you might as well be worshipping david duke.

Olaf's fake outrage here is absolutely pathetic.

Icarus, I have literally gone over why it is Che specifically as opposed to other Socialist murderers which upsets me 15 times. I am not outraged that people discuss and talk about Che Guevara. Why would I bring up my concern about the founding fathers or Mises' claim that fascism prevented the spread of socialism? I don't see why I would just randomly bring that up.

Skooma Addict

8th February 2010, 04:01

Skooma Addict

8th February 2010, 04:03

WOW REALLY?
Che is popular in the mainstream culture? I fail to see how you think a few people wearing Che shirts means Che as the leftist is popular.

If anything, you'd have to agree with us when we say that the amount of anti-communist propaganda is hysterical.

I would agree with you that there is a really lot of anti-communist stuff on the mainstream news. That is true.

Kwisatz Haderach

8th February 2010, 04:11

Stop trying to avoid the facts. He killed people without fair trials. Accept it.
No, sorry, I won't accept that the henchmen of a right-wing dictatorship were "innocent people" just because you say so.

Skooma Addict

8th February 2010, 04:14

No, sorry, I won't accept that the henchmen of a right-wing dictatorship were "innocent people" just because you say so.

Well can you porvide me with proof that they were all henchmen of the dictatorship. Hopefully evidence from their trial? Oh wait...

IcarusAngel

8th February 2010, 04:23

Ok something tells me you're exaggerating when you say they worship Hitler.

I'm not going to say I'm exaggerating; Hoppean theory indicates that fascistic monarch rule is better than social democracy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ludwig_von_Mises&oldid=339887684

Mises himself praised fascism for saving Europe from "socialism" - Hitler was a fascist, although he extended fascism (which is hyper capitalism) to include racial theories.

The fact is that had the socialists won out in Nazi Germany - as millions of people who marched against Hitler probably wished they would have after the Nazis took power - the Jews and the millions of "dissenters," gypsies, and homosexuals would have never been murdered.

This is because the "evil" social democracy gives rights to ALL citizens, not just those citizens with property and so on, and had democracy and socialism existed the holocaust wouldn't have happened.

In fact, we on the left need to be pointing out more frequently what happened, and in fact Pinochet himself was nothing more than a "mini-Hitler" who was supported by the Chicago school - deregulated industries as Hitler did, privatized many resources, and created a police state to monitor dissident activity.

In fact it was after the second world war that nearly all social scientists except miseans realized that we must have social democracy, which have never slipped into fascism the way failed capitalist states have.

Nolan

8th February 2010, 04:29

I'm not going to say I'm exaggerating; Hoppean theory indicates that fascistic monarch rule is better than social democracy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ludwig_von_Mises&oldid=339887684

Mises himself praised fascism for saving Europe from "socialism" - Hitler was a fascist, although he extended fascism (which is hyper capitalism) to include racial theories.

The fact is that had the socialists won out in Nazi Germany - as millions of people who marched against Hitler probably wished they would have after the Nazis took power - the Jews and the millions of "dissenters," gypsies, and homosexuals would have never been murdered.

This is because the "evil" social democracy gives rights to ALL citizens, not just those citizens with property and so on, and had democracy and socialism existed the holocaust wouldn't have happened.

In fact, we on the left need to be pointing out more frequently what happened, and in fact Pinochet himself was nothing more than a "mini-Hitler" who was supported by the Chicago school - deregulated industries as Hitler did, privatized many resources, and created a police state to monitor dissident activity.

In fact it was after the second world war that nearly all social scientists except miseans realized that we must have social democracy, which have never slipped into fascism the way failed capitalist states have.

Well it seems to me that they don't want a Hitler, they just prefer fascism to Socialism or social democracy.

IcarusAngel

8th February 2010, 04:34

The whole thread I linked to was about how neo-mercantilism (which would include Nazism in Misean reasoning) was more acceptable than "leftism."

According to Amartya Sen, Pinochet's reforms led to at least two recessions and an unemployment rate of over 24%, which is Great Depression levels without the high level of investment that the US had. They only recovered with social democracy.

Misean economics is not only crazy, it's dangerous to human kind.

Skooma Addict

8th February 2010, 04:36

I'm not going to say I'm exaggerating; Hoppean theory indicates that fascistic monarch rule is better than social democracy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ludwig_von_Mises&oldid=339887684

Mises himself praised fascism for saving Europe from "socialism" - Hitler was a fascist, although he extended fascism (which is hyper capitalism) to include racial theories.

The fact is that had the socialists won out in Nazi Germany - as millions of people who marched against Hitler probably wished they would have after the Nazis took power - the Jews and the millions of "dissenters," gypsies, and homosexuals would have never been murdered.

This is because the "evil" social democracy gives rights to ALL citizens, not just those citizens with property and so on, and had democracy and socialism existed the holocaust wouldn't have happened.

In fact, we on the left need to be pointing out more frequently what happened, and in fact Pinochet himself was nothing more than a "mini-Hitler" who was supported by the Chicago school - deregulated industries as Hitler did, privatized many resources, and created a police state to monitor dissident activity.

In fact it was after the second world war that nearly all social scientists except miseans realized that we must have social democracy, which have never slipped into fascism the way failed capitalist states have.

According to Hoppe, Monarchy is better than Democracy. There is a difference between fascism and monarchy. He claims that monarchies are less likely to engage in brutal wars and that the king has to look out for the long term interests of his country. However, Hoppe does not represent Austrians in general. In fact, he represents a very small conservative fraction.

In 1929, Mises praised fascism for preventing socialism from dominating Europe. But he was not a fascist. Its not that difficult to understand really.

You completely failed to prove that Austrians praise Hitler.

IcarusAngel

8th February 2010, 04:43

You could technically have a fascistic monarchy, so long as they supported capitalism, and his belief that monarchies are better than democracy is rooted in the Mises' claim that fascism is better than socialism.

Monarchies got into wars. The reason fewer people died is because there were fewer people alive at the time. One of the only semi-decent theories from a right-winger is that democracies don't fight one another, although I believe that was first claimed by someone in international relations (meaning democratic-capitalist, and democratic-socialist). Although there are seemingly exceptions to this rule, it is generally true, certainly they are less likely to fight than monarchies operating under feudalism.

In any case, Mises prediction was flat-out wrong.

Nolan

8th February 2010, 04:48

This has gone completely off topic.

Skooma Addict

8th February 2010, 04:49

Indeed it has. I have lost the will to keep doing this.

Nolan

8th February 2010, 04:55

Anyways...

I've always wondered who sung "Hasta Siempre."

Now I know. :)

Drace

8th February 2010, 04:57

On a different topic, Olaf, what kind of capitalism do you support?

Skooma Addict

8th February 2010, 05:00

Ill PM you Drace.

Nolan

8th February 2010, 05:02

I'm curious as well.

Havet

8th February 2010, 10:29

Me three!

ComradeMan

8th February 2010, 10:59

Olaf.

May I ask what you are doing here? Some of the stuff you are coming out with is truly worthy of the Black Book of Communism. It seems your anti-Che stance is supported by information from US based anti-Castro sources and the like---- you do have to question your sources.

Re the 14 year old. I can find very few references and those that do cast some doubt over it. Remember too that El Che and Fidel did the impossible and severely pissed off world capitalism and more specifically, the US! For the last 51 years there has been a campaign against them, not just the embargo but also the propaganda. You ought to question your sources too. Now, I am not an unequivocal supporter of Castro nor the way things have gone, but at the same time, in terms of the revolution in Cuba it is much better for the Cubans now than under Batista, they have the best healthcare and public education, low crime and had there been no embargo- who knows?

If people want to wear El Che T-shirts.... well, so what? He stood for something during the times, in the 60's when the "revolution" was in swing... By the way, people wear t-shirts with Jimi Hendrix, Jim Morrison, John Lennon and so on without perhaps knowing their entire life histories or all their lyrics etc etc....

gorillafuck

8th February 2010, 11:55

Me four.

Qwerty Dvorak

8th February 2010, 17:08

If anything, he killed more people than listed. I am not going to argue over how many people you need to kill before your considered a mass murderer. For me, if you kill 180 people, your a mass murderer. The fact is that the deaths listed could have been avoided easily. At least have fair trials.
What? I never said he didn't kill enough people to be considered a mass murderer. You never addressed my point, which is that if you call killing someone in a time of revolution or war "murder", you are using an extremely expansive definition of the word murder which is inconsistent with the generally accepted usage of that term, and which dilutes the meaning of that term.

Fair trial? What is a fair trial, were the Nuremburg Trials fair?

Nolan

8th February 2010, 19:49

....if you call killing someone in a time of revolution or war "murder", you are using an extremely expansive definition of the word murder which is inconsistent with the generally accepted usage of that term, and which dilutes the meaning of that term.

This.

Skooma Addict

8th February 2010, 20:00

Killing an innocent person, no matter what the circumstances is murder. Things do not change when a person puts on a different set of clothing.

ComradeMan

8th February 2010, 20:09

Killing an innocent person, no matter what the circumstances is murder. Things do not change when a person puts on a different set of clothing.

Were the people El Che shot innocent? Necessarily? Were they not collaborators in Batista's regime? Is a 14 year old not capable of pulling a trigger or being an informant? Never heard of boy soldiers? Who is innocent in a war? Non combatants, the elderly, women and young children. War is terrible and killing is not good, I think even Che suffered because of what he had to do and see.... like Lawrence of Arabia in a way. Nevertheless, all this Che is a criminal stuff is just righwing US based propaganda.... No one said he was Jesus for crying out loud...!:thumbup1:

Nolan

8th February 2010, 20:17

ComradeMan

8th February 2010, 20:20

Just let it go. Olaf has shown he's not willing to admit Che was no worse than any other commander in history, and is hiding behind what he calls "murder." Apparently he just doesn't like it when a Marxist gets on someones coffee mug instead of whoever influenced him.

And we already established that there's no proof of him killing a 14 year old.

Para toda la gente, hasta la victoria del pueblo siempre! :thumbup1:

I think Olaf is relying to heavily on sources taken from bitter ex-Cubans who left, who de facto, hate Fidel etc. Perhaps it depends where you are too. I could imagine that in the US Castro has got a very bad press...

Skooma Addict

8th February 2010, 20:22

ComradeMan

8th February 2010, 20:29

There are documented names of people whom he killed. I am not going to argue this point any further. I know that there were military commanders worse than Che. That was never the point.

Agree to disagree I guess.

Yes but WHO were these people who were shot? What role did they play? Out of the whole population of Cuba what did they represent?

Zanthorus

8th February 2010, 20:30

Icarus, I have literally gone over why it is Che specifically as opposed to other Socialist murderers which upsets me 15 times. I am not outraged that people discuss and talk about Che Guevara. Why would I bring up my concern about the founding fathers or Mises' claim that fascism prevented the spread of socialism? I don't see why I would just randomly bring that up.

You're being ridiculous. Ignore Che's mild popularity for a moment and focus on the fact that mass murderers like the founding fathers are actively praised in public schools in america. If you're really so concerned about people worshipping mass murderers why even focus on the Socialist ones? There are plenty of other mass murderers that aren't widely known that children are taught by public schools to praise. Why don't you complain about those?

Oh that's right, because your whole purpose is to spread anti-communist propaganda.

ComradeMan

8th February 2010, 20:33

You're being ridiculous. Ignore Che's mild popularity for a moment and focus on the fact that mass murderers like the founding fathers are actively praised in public schools in america. If you're really so concerned about people worshipping mass murderers why even focus on the Socialist ones? There are plenty of other mass murderers that aren't widely known that children are taught by public schools to praise. Why don't you complain about those?

Oh that's right, because your whole purpose is to spread anti-communist propaganda.

Zanthorus.... firstly, two wrongs don't make a right.

Having said that though I think the Capitalists hate Che with a passion because he became an icon in an era of "icons". That's what they hate the most, he was not some bearded Russian or German with complicated theories... he was someone who, like Fidel, in many ways spoke to the "people" and the fact that 40 odd years after his death more people would probably recognise and "resonate" with Ernesto than McCarthy really sticks in their throats, hence the attacks upon him.

Skooma Addict

8th February 2010, 20:35

Zanthorus

8th February 2010, 20:36

Zanthorus.... firstly, two wrongs don't make a right.

I never said that. My point was that there are other people who were much worse than Che who are actively praised in the american education system. That's surely worse than a counter cultural symbol who's face is popular among colledge students.

EDIT:

I do have a problem with idolizing the founding fathers. What do you want me to do? List off every person who is wrongly idolized? I don't need to complain about them because nobody here idolizes them.

Well okey dokey then. I'm not too bothered about defending Che anyway and I don't have the requisite historical knowledge to do it. So I'll leave it at that.

ComradeMan

8th February 2010, 21:25

Zanthorus.... hey, I wasn't calling you out on that one- just trying to be fair.
:D

Conquer or Die

9th February 2010, 13:48

Why did Che kill a 14 year old?

Because Che is a hero.

ComradeMan

9th February 2010, 20:35

Why did Che kill a 14 year old?

Because Che is a hero.

Can we actually get some verification on this....?

All I can find is unsourced and from sites that are so blatantly anti-Cuban or anti-Communist that it calls into question their reliability.

BTW, one of my older relatives was in Germany towards the end of the war, they were fighting their way to Berlin- often they were shooting at boys no more than 14 or 15 who already had the Iron Cross--- the Soviets had young soldiers too, the youngest British casualty of WWI was 14 if I am not mistaken... Reginal Earnshaw.... The boy soldiers of Africa are as young as 12..... war is a terrible thing.

Klashnekov

9th February 2010, 21:46

"I have yet to find a single credible source pointing to a case where Che executed "an innocent". Those persons executed by Guevara or on his orders were condemned for the usual crimes punishable by death at times of war or in its aftermath: desertion, treason or crimes such as rape, torture or murder."

* Jon Lee Anderson, author of Che Guevara: A Revolutionary Life

Oh and good job using the most Right-Wing Conservative Anti-Communist website "The Real Cuba" as a source.

The fact that it's impossable to always guarantee trials in war times makes your argument completely irrelivent. You can't wage a war against somebody and guarantee innocent people won't be killed in the process - But as Jon Lee Anderson states, all those killed by Che or on his orders were "condemned for usual crimes punishable by death at times of war or in its aftermath".

If a single individual may be a threat to a revolutionary struggle, then the threat must be elimated for the interests of the majority.

Instead of reading a biased Conservative Website, you should read the book he wrote because he explains everything there. "Guerilla Warfare". He diden't try to hide his idea's and actions like the US Government.

ComradeMan

10th February 2010, 11:22