Holocaust Proof

[Dr Mindbender]

Post here proof that the holocaust happened.

Could a mod or admin sticky this please?


Himmler gives order for holocaust
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FgfTwtV79xs

[Dr Mindbender]

http://www.nizkor.org/features/qar/qar01.html

1. What proof exists that the Nazis practiced genocide or deliberately killed six million Jews?
The IHR says (original, Samisdat, and revised versions combined):
None. The only evidence is the postwar testimony of individual "survivors." This testimony is contradictory, and no "survivor" claims to have actually witnessed any gassing. There are no contemporaneous documents and no hard evidence whatsoever: no mounds of ashes, no crematoria capable of disposing of millions of corpses, no piles of clothes, no human soap, no lamp shades made of human skin, no records, no credible demographic statistics.

Nizkor replies:

Lie piled upon lie, with not a shred of proof.
This is as good a place as any to present some detailed evidence which is consistently ignored, as a sort of primer on Holocaust denial. It will make this reply much longer than the other sixty-five, but perhaps the reader will understand the necessity for this.
Let's look at their claims one at a time:
Supposedly the only evidence, "the postwar testimony of individual survivors."
First of all, consider the implicit conspiracy theory. Notice how the testimony of every single inmate of every Nazi camp is automatically dismissed as unconvincing. This total dismissal of inmates' testimony, along with the equally-total dismissal of the Nazis' own testimony (!), is the largest unspoken assumption of Holocaust-denial.
This assumption, which is not often spelled out, is that the attempted Jewish genocide never took place, but rather that a secret conspiracy of Jews, starting around 1941, planted and forged myriad documents to prove that it did; then, after the war, they rounded up all the camp survivors and told them what to say.
The conspirators also supposedly managed to torture hundreds of key Nazis into confessing to crimes which they never committed, or into framing their fellow Nazis for those crimes, and to plant hundreds of documents in Nazi files which were never discovered until after the war, and only then, in many cases, by sheer luck. Goebbels (http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/g/goebbels.joseph/)' diary, for example, was barely rescued from being sold as 7,000 pages of scrap paper, but buried in the scattered manuscript were several telling entries (as translated in Lochner, The Goebbels (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/external-search?tag=thenizkorproject&keyword=goebbels&mode=books) Diaries, 1948, pp. 86, 147-148):

February 14, 1942: The Führer (http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/h/hitler-adolf/) once again expressed his determination to clean up the Jews in Europe pitilessly. There must be no squeamish sentimentalism about it. The Jews have deserved the catastrophe that has now overtaken them. Their destruction will go hand in hand with the destruction of our enemies. We must hasten this process with cold ruthlessness. March 27, 1942: The procedure is a pretty barbaric one and not to be described here more definitely. Not much will remain of the Jews. On the whole it can be said that about 60 per cent of them will have to be liquidated whereas only 40 per cent can be used for forced labor.

Michael Shermer (http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/s/shermer.michael/) has pointed out (http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/s/shermer.michael/open-letter) that the Nazis' own estimate of the number of European Jews was eleven million, and sixty percent of eleven million is 6.6 million. This is fairly close to the actual figure. (Actually, forty percent was a serious overestimate of the survival rate of Jews who were captured, but there were many Jews who escaped.)
In any case, most of the diary is quite mundane, and interesting only to historians. Did the supposed Jewish conspiracy forge seven thousand pages to insert just a few lines? How did they manage to know Goebbels' affairs intimately enough to avoid contradictions, e.g. putting him or his associates in the wrong city at the wrong date?
As even the revisionist David Cole (http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/c/cole.david/) has admitted (http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/c/cole.david/cole-vs-faurisson-struthof), revisionists have yet to provide a satisfactory explanation of this document.
Regarding postwar testimony from Nazis, were they all tortured into confessing to heinous crimes which they supposedly did not commit? This might be believable if only a few Nazis were captured after the war, or maybe if some had courageously stood up in court and shouted to the world about the supposed attempt to silence them. But hundreds testified regarding the Holocaust, in trials dating from late 1945 until the 1960s. (For example, see Böck (http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/b/boeck.richard/), Hofmann (http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/h/hofmann.franz-johann/), Hössler (http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/h/hoessler.franz/), Klein (http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/k/klein.fritz/), Münch (http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/m/muench.hans/), and Stark (http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/s/stark.hans/).)
Many of these Nazis testified as witnesses and were not accused of crimes. What was the basis for their supposed coercion?
Many of these trials were in German courts. Did the Germans torture their own countrymen? Well, Holocaust-deniers sometimes claim that the Jews have secretly infiltrated the German government and control everything about it. They prefer not to talk too much about this theory, however, because it is clearly on the lunatic fringe.
The main point is that not one of these supposed torture victims -- in fifty years, not one -- has come forth to support the claim that testimony was coerced.
On the contrary, confirmation and reconfirmation of their testimony has continued across the years. What coercion could have convinced Judge Konrad Morgen (http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/m/morgen.georg.konrad/) to testify to the crimes he witnessed at the International Nuremberg Trial in 1946, where he was not accused of any crime? And to later testify at the Auschwitz trial at Frankfurt, Germany, in 1963-65? What coercion was applied to SS Doctor Johann Kremer (http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/k/kremer.johann/) to make him testify in his own defense in 1947, and then, after having been convicted in both Poland and Germany, emerge after his release to testify again as a witness at the Frankfurt trial? What coercion was applied to Böck (http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/b/boeck.richard/), Gerhard Hess, Hölblinger, Storch, and Wiebeck, all former SS men, all witnesses at Frankfurt, none accused of any crime there?
Holocaust-deniers point to small discrepancies in testimonies to try to discredit them. The assumption, unstated, is that the reader will accept minor discrepancies as evidence of a vast, over-reaching Jewish conspiracy. This is clearly ludicrous.
In fact, the discrepancies and minor errors in detail argue against, not for, the conspiracy theory. Why would the conspirators have given different information to different Nazis? In fact, if all the testimonies, from the Nazis' to the inmates', sounded too similar, it is certain that the Holocaust-deniers would cite that as evidence of a conspiracy.
What supposed coercion could reach across four decades, to force former SS-Untersturmführer Dr. Hans Münch (http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/m/muench.hans/) to give an interview (http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/m/muench.hans/swedish-television-interview), against the will of his family, on Swedish television? In the 1981 interview, he talked about Auschwitz (http://www.nizkor.org/faqs/auschwitz/):

Interviewer: Isn't the ideology of extermination contrary to a doctor's ethical values?
Münch: Yes, absolutely. There is no discussion. But I lived in that environment, and I tried in every possible way to avoid accepting it, but I had to live with it. What else could I have done? And I wasn't confronted with it directly until the order came that I and my superior and another one had to take part in the exterminations since the camp's doctors were overloaded and couldn't cope with it.
Interviewer: I must ask something. Doubters claim that "special treatment" could mean anything. It didn't have to be extermination.
Münch: "Special treatment" in the terminology of the concentration camp means physical extermination. If it was a question of more than a few people, where nothing else than gassing them was worthwhile, they were gassed.
Interviewer: "Special treatment" was gassing? Münch: Yes, absolutely.

And what supposed coercion could reach across four decades, to force former SS-Unterscharführer Franz Suchomel (http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/s/suchomel.franz/) into giving an interview for the film Shoah? Speaking under (false) promises of anonymity, he told of the crimes committed at the Treblinka (http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/camps/aktion-reinhard/treblinka/) death camp (from the book Shoah, Claude Lanzmann, 1985, p. 54):

Interviewer: You are a very important eyewitness, and you can explain what Treblinka was.
Suchomel: But don't use my name.
Interviewer: No, I promised. All right, you've arrived at Treblinka.
Suchomel: So Stadie, the sarge, showed us the camps from end to end. Just as we went by, they were opening the gas-chamber doors, and people fell out like potatoes. Naturally, that horrified and appalled us. We went back and sat down on our suitcases and cried like old women. Each day one hundred Jews were chosen to drag the corpses to the mass graves. In the evening the Ukrainians drove those Jews into the gas chambers or shot them. Every day!

Ask the deniers why they shrug off the testimony of Franz Suchomel. Greg Raven will tell you (http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/r/raven.greg/1994/raven.1194) that "it is not evidence...bring me some evidence, please." Others will tell you that Suchomel and Münch were crazy, or hallucinating, or fantasizing.
But the fantasy is obviously in the minds of those who choose to ignore the mass of evidence and believe instead in a hypothetical conspiracy, supported by nothing but their imaginations.
That total lack of evidence is why the "conspiracy assumption" almost always remains an unspoken assumption. To our knowledge, there has not been one single solitary "revisionist" paper, article, speech, pamphlet, book, audiotape, videotape, or newsletter which provides any details about this supposed Jewish/Zionist conspiracy which did all the dirty work. Not one.
At best, the denial literature makes veiled references to the World Jewish Congress perpetuating a "hoax" (in Butz (http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/b/butz.arthur/), 1976) -- no details are provided. Yet the entire case of Holocaust-denial rests on this supposed conspiracy.
As for the testimony of the survivors, which the "revisionists" claim is the only evidence, there are indeed numerous testimonies to gassings and other forms of atrocities, from Jewish inmates who survived the camps, and also from other inmates like POWs. Many of the prisoners that testified about the gassing are not Jewish, of course. Look for instance at the testimony of Polish officer Zenon Rozansky about the first homicidal gassing in Auschwitz, in which 850 Russian POWs were gassed to death, in Reitlinger, The Final Solution, p. 154:
Those who were propped against the door leant with a curious stiffness and then fell right at our feet, striking their faces hard against the concrete floor. Corpses! Corpses standing bolt upright and filling the entire corridor of the bunker, till they were packed so tight that it was impossible for more to fall.

Which of the "revisionists" will deny this? Which of them was there? Which of them has the authority to tell Rozansky what he did or did not see?
The statement that "no 'survivor' claims to have actually witnessed any gassing" is clearly false; this was changed to "few survivors" in later versions, which is close to the truth.
But we do not need to rely solely on testimony, from the survivors, Nazis, or otherwise. Many wartime documents, not postwar descriptions, specifically regarding gassings and other atrocities, were seized by the U.S. armed forces. Most are in the National Archives in Washington, D.C.; some are in Germany.
Regarding the gassing vans (http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/chelmno/gas-vans-background), precursors to the gas chambers, we find, for example, a top secret document from SS Untersturmführer Becker to SS Obersturmbannführer Rauff (from Nazi Conspiracy and Aggression, 1946, Vol. I, pp. 999-1001):

If it has rained for instance for only one half hour, the van cannot be used because it simply skids away. It can only be used in absolutely dry weather. It is only a question now whether the van can only be used standing at the place of execution. First the van has to be brought to that place, which is possible only in good weather. ... The application of gas usually is not undertaken correctly. In order to come to an end as fast as possible, the driver presses the accelerator to the fullest extent. By doing that the persons to be executed suffer death from suffocation and not death by dozing off as was planned. My directions now have proved that by correct adjustment of the levers death comes faster and the prisoners fall asleep peacefully.

And Just wrote of the gas vans to Rauff, on June 5, 1942, in a letter marked both "top secret" and "only copy". This is a horrific masterpiece of Nazi double-talk, referring to killing as "processing" and the victims as "subjects" and "the load." (See Kogon, Nazi Mass Murder, 1993, pp. 228-235.)

Since December 1941, for example, 97,000 were processed using three vans, without any faults occurring in the vehicles. ...
The normal capacity of the vans is nine to ten per square meter. The capacity of the larger special Saurer vans is not so great. The problem is not one of overloading but of off-road maneuverability on all terrains, which is severely diminished in this van. It would appear that a reduction in the cargo area is necessary. This can be achieved by shortening the compartment by about one meter. The problem cannot be solved by merely reducing the number of subject treated, as has been done so far. For in this case a longer running time is required, as the empty space also needs to be filled with CO [the poison exhaust gas]. ... Greater protection is needed for the lighting system. The grille should cover the lamps high enough up to make it impossible to break the bulbs. It seems that these lamps are hardly ever turned on, so the users have suggested that they could be done away with. Experience shows, however, that when the back door is closed and it gets dark inside, the load pushes hard against the door. The reason for this is that when it becomes dark inside, the load rushes toward what little light remains. This hampers the locking of the door. It has also been noticed that the noise provoked by the locking of the door is linked to the fear aroused by the darkness.

Slip-ups occurred in written correspondence regarding the gas chambers themselves, some of which, fortunately, escaped destruction and were found after the war. A memo written to SS man Karl Bischoff on November 27, 1942 describes the gas chamber in Krema II not with the usual mundane name of "Leichenkeller," but rather as the "Sonderkeller" "special cellar."
And two months later, on January 29, 1943, Bischoff wrote a memo to Kammler, referring to that same chamber as the "Vergasungskeller." (See Gutman, Anatomy of the Auschwitz Death Camp, 1994, pp. 223, 227.) "Vergasungskeller" means exactly what it sounds like: "gassing cellar," an underground gas chamber.
Holocaust-deniers turn to Arthur Butz (http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/b/butz.arthur/), who provides a specious explanation for the Vergasungskeller: "Vergasung," he says, cannot refer to killing people with gas, but only to the process of converting a solid or liquid into gas. Therefore, he says the "Vergasungskeller," must have been a special room where the fuel for the Auschwitz ovens was converted into gas -- a "gasification cellar."
There are three problems with this explanation. First, "Vergasung" certainly can refer to killing people with gas; Butz does not speak German and he should not try to lecture about the language. Second, there is no room that could possibly serve this function which Butz describes -- years after writing his book, he admitted this, and helplessly suggested that there might be another building somewhere in the camp that might house a gasification cellar. Third, the type of oven used at Auschwitz did not require any gasification process! The ovens burned solid fuel. (See Gutman, op. cit., pp. 184-193.)
So what does the term "gassing cellar" refer to? Holocaust-deniers have yet to offer any believable explanation.
An inventory, again captured after the war, revealed fourteen showerheads and one gas-tight door listed for the gas chamber in Krema III. Holocaust-deniers claim that room was a morgue; they do not offer to explain what use a morgue has for showerheads and a gas-tight door. (See a photograph (http://www.fmv.ulg.ac.be/schmitz/Holocaust/invntry.html) of the document, or Pressac (http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/auschwitz/pressac), Auschwitz: Technique and Operation, 1989, pp. 231, 438.)
A memo from the Auschwitz construction office, dated March 31, 1943, says (Hilberg (http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/h/hilberg.raul/), Documents of Destruction, 1971, pp. 207-208):
We take this occasion to refer to another order of March 6, 1943, for the delivery of a gas door 100/192 for Leichenkeller 1 of Krema III, Bw 30a, which is to be built in the manner and according to the same measure as the cellar door of the opposite Krema II, with peep hole of double 8 millimeter glass encased in rubber. This order is to be viewed as especially urgent....

Why would morgues have urgently needed peepholes made out of a double layer of third-of-an-inch-thick glass?
The question of whether it can be proved that the cyanide gas was used in the Auschwitz gas chambers has intruiged the deniers. Their much-heralded Leuchter Report (http://www.nizkor.org/faqs/leuchter/), for example, expends a great deal of effort on the question of whether traces of cyanide residue remain (http://www.nizkor.org/faqs/leuchter/leuchter-faq-04.html) there today. But we do not need to look for chemical traces to confirm cyanide use (Gutman, op. cit., p. 229):
Letters and telegrams exchanged on February 11 and 12 [1943] between the Zentralbauleitung and Topf mention a wooden blower for Leichenkeller 1. This reference confirms the use of the morgue as a gas chamber: Bischoff and Prüfer thought that the extraction of air mixed with concentrated prussic acid [cyanide] (20 g per cu m) required a noncorroding ventilator.

Bischoff and Prüfer turned out to be wrong, and a metal fan ended up working acceptably well. But the fact that they thought it necessary demonstrates that cyanide was to be routinely used in the rooms which deniers call morgues. (Cyanide is useless for disinfecting morgues, as it does not kill bacteria.)
Other captured documents, even if they don't refer directly to some part of the extermination process, refer to it by implication. A captured memo to SS-Brigadeführer Kammler reveals that the expected incineration capacity of the Auschwitz ovens was a combined total of 4,756 corpses per day (see a photograph (http://www.fmv.ulg.ac.be/schmitz/Holocaust/furncap.html) of the document or Kogon, op. cit., p. 157).
Deniers often claim that this total could not be achieved in practice (see question 45 (http://www.nizkor.org/features/qar/qar45.html)). That's not the point. These crematoria were carefully designed, in 1942, to have sufficient capacity to dispose of 140,000 corpses per month -- in a camp that housed only 125,000. We can conclude that massive deaths were predicted, indeed planned-for, as early as mid-1942. A camp designed to incinerate its full capacity of inmates every four weeks is not merely a detention center.
Finally, apart from the abundant testimonies, confessions, and physical evidence of the extermination process, there is certainly no want of evidence of the Nazis' intentions and plans.
Here are just a few examples. Hans Frank (http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/f/frank.hans/)'s diary (from Nazi Conspiracy and Aggression, 1946, Vol. I, pp. 992, 994):

But what should be done with the Jews? Do you think they will be settled down in the 'Ostland' [eastern territories], in [resettlement] villages? This is what we were told in Berlin: Why all this bother? We can do nothing with them either in the 'Ostland' nor in the 'Reichkommissariat.' So liquidate them yourself.
Gentlemen, I must ask you to rid yourself of all feeling of pity. We must annihilate the Jews, wherever we find them and wherever it is possible, in order to maintain the structure of the Reich as a whole. ...
We cannot shoot or poison these 3,500,000 Jews, but we shall nevertheless be able to take measures, which will lead, somehow, to their annihilation.... That we sentence 1,200,000 Jews to die of hunger should be noted only marginally.

Himmler (http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/h/himmler.heinrich)'s speech at Posen on October 4, 1943 was captured on audiotape (Trial of the Major War Criminals, 1948, Vol. XXIX, p. 145, trans. by current author):
I refer now to the evacuation of the Jews, the extermination of the Jewish people. This is one of those things that is easily said: "the Jewish people are being exterminated," says every Party member, "quite true, it's part of our plans, the elimination of the Jews, extermination, we're doing it."

The extermination effort was even mentioned in at least one official Nazi court verdict. In May 1943, a Munich court wrote in its decision (http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/t/taubner.max/taubner-1943-verdict) against SS-Untersturmführer Max Taubner (http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/t/taubner.max/) that:
The accused shall not be punished because of the actions against the Jews as such. The Jews have to be exterminated and none of the Jews that were killed is any great loss. Although the accused should have recognized that the extermination of the Jews was the duty of Kommandos which were set up especially for this purpose, he should be excused for considering himself to have the authority to take part in the extermination of Jewry himself.

And Hitler (http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/h/hitler-adolf/) spoke quite clearly in public on no fewer than three occasions. On January 30, 1939, seven months before Germany invaded Poland, he spoke publicly to the Reichstag (transcribed from Skeptic magazine (http://www.skeptic.com/), Vol. 2, No. 4, p. 50):
Today I want to be a prophet once more: if international finance Jewry inside and outside of Europe should succeed once more in plunging nations into another world war, the consequence will not be the Bolshevation of the earth and thereby the victory of Jewry, but the annihilation of the Jewish race in Europe.

By the way, this last phrase is, in German, "die Vernichtung der jüdischen Rasse in Europa," which German-speakers will realize is quite unambiguous.
In September, 1942:
...if Jewry should plot another world war in order to exterminate the Aryan peoples in Europe, it would not be the Aryan people which would be exterminated but Jewry...

On November 8, 1942:
You will recall the session of the Reichstag during which I declared: if Jewry should imagine that it could bring about an international world war to exterminate the European races, the result will not be the extermination of the European races, but the extermination of Jewry in Europe. People always laughed about me as a prophet. Of those who laughed then, countless numbers no longer laugh today, and those who still laugh now will perhaps no longer laugh a short time from now.

There are many other examples of documents and testimonies that could be presented.
Keep in mind that the IHR (http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/orgs/american/ihr/)'s answer to "what proof exists?" is "none." It has certainly been demonstrated already that this pat answer is totally dishonest. And this is the main point we wish to communicate: that Holocaust-denial is dishonest.
We continue by analyzing the remaining, more-specific, claims about what evidence supposedly does not exist.
"No mounds of ashes" is an internal contradiction. In an article in the journal published by the same IHR that publishes these Q&A, the Journal's editor reported that a Polish commission in 1946 found human ash at the Treblinka death camp to a depth of over twenty feet. This article is available on The IHR's web site (http://ihr.org/jhr/v12/v12p133_Allen.html).
(Apparently some survivors claimed that the corpses were always thoroughly cremated. Because uncremated human remains were mixed with the ash, the editor suggested that the testimonies were false. Amazingly, he had no comment on how a twenty-foot layer of human ashes came to be there in the first place. Perhaps he felt that to be unworthy of mention.)
There are also piles of ashes at Maidanek (http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/maidanek/). At Auschwitz-Birkenau (http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/auschwitz/), ashes from cremated corpses were dumped into the rivers and swamps surrounding the camp, and used as fertilizer for nearby farmers' fields.
"No crematoria" capable of disposing of millions of corpses? Absolutely false, the crematoria were more than capable of the job, according to both the Nazis' own internal memos and the testimony of survivors. Holocaust-deniers deliberately confuse civilian, funeral-home crematoria with the huge industrial ovens of the death camps. This is discussed in much detail in the replies to questions 42 (http://www.nizkor.org/features/qar/qar42.html) and 45 (http://www.nizkor.org/features/qar/qar45.html).
"No piles of clothes"? Apparently, the IHR considers piles of clothes to be "hard evidence"! This is strange, because they do not deny the other sorts of piles found at Nazi camps: piles of eyeglasses (http://www.fmv.ulg.ac.be/schmitz/Holocaust/auschw01.html), piles of shoes (at Auschwitz (http://www.fmv.ulg.ac.be/schmitz/Holocaust/auschw02.html), Belzec (http://www.fmv.ulg.ac.be/schmitz/Holocaust/belzec01.html), and Maidanek (http://www.fmv.ulg.ac.be/schmitz/Holocaust/maidan01.html)), piles of gold teeth (http://www.fmv.ulg.ac.be/schmitz/Holocaust/teeth.html), piles of burned corpses (http://www.fmv.ulg.ac.be/schmitz/Holocaust/maidan02.html), piles of unburned corpses (http://www.fmv.ulg.ac.be/schmitz/Holocaust/belsen01.html), piles of artificial limbs (see Swiebocka, Auschwitz: A History in Photographs, 1993, p. 210), piles of human hair (ibid, p. 211), piles of ransacked luggage (ibid, p. 213), piles of shaving-brushes (ibid, p. 215), piles of combs (ibid), piles of pots and pans (ibid), and yes, even the piles of clothes (ibid, p. 214) that the IHR claims do not exist.
Perhaps the authors of the 66 Q&A realized that it was dangerous for them to admit that these piles were hard evidence, because then they would also be forced to admit a number of other things as "hard evidence." Perhaps this is why they removed this phrase from the revised 66 Q&A.
If items were not generally found in mass quantities, it is only because the Nazis distributed them to the German population. A memo (http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/auschwitz/frank-himmler) on this was captured, revealing that they even redistributed women's underwear.
"No human soap"? This is true, but misleading. Though there is some evidence (http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/stutthof/) that soap was made from corpses on a very limited experimental scale, the rumored "mass production" was never done, and no soap made from human corpses is known to exist. However, there is sworn testimony, never refuted, from British POWs and a German army official, stating that soap experiments were performed, and the recipe for the soap was captured by the Allies. To state flatly that the Nazis did not make soap from human beings is incorrect.
"No lamp shades made of human skin?" False -- lampshades and other human-skin "ornaments" were introduced as evidence in both trials of Ilse Koch, and were shown to a U.S. Senate investigation committee in the late 40s. We know they were made of human skin because they bore tattoos, and because a microscopic forensic analysis of the items was performed. (A detailed page on this is being prepared.)
"No records"? This is nonsense (which may explain why this claim was removed from the "revised" versions of the 66 Q&A). True, extermination by gassing was always referred to with code-words, and those victims who arrived at death camps only to be immediately gassed were not recorded in any books. But there are slip-ups in the code-word usage that reveal the true meanings, as already described. There are inventories and requisitions for the Krema which reveal items anomalous with ordinary use but perfect for mass homicidal gassing. There are deportation train records which, pieced together, speak clearly. And so on. Several examples have been given above.
"No credible demographic statistics"? This is the second internal contradiction -- see question 2 (http://www.nizkor.org/features/qar/qar02.html) and question 15 (http://www.nizkor.org/features/qar/qar15.html). The Anglo-American committee who studied the issue estimated the number of Jewish victims at 5.7 million. This was based on population statistics. Here is the exact breakdown, country by country: Germany195,000Austria53,000Czechoslovakia255,000De nmark1,500France140,000Belgium57,000Luxemburg3,000 Norway1,000Holland120,000Italy20,000Yugoslavia64,0 00Greece64,000Bulgaria5,000Rumania530,000Hungary20 0,000Poland3,271,000USSR1,050,000Less dispersed refugees(308,000)Total number of Jews killed5,721,500

(This estimate was arrived at using population statistics, and not by adding the number of casualties at each camp. These are also available -- for instance, a separate file (http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/aktion.reinhard/treblinka/treblinka.01) with the ruling of a German court regarding the number of victims in Treblinka (http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/aktion.reinhard/treblinka/) is available. The SS kept rather accurate records, and many of the documents survived, reinforced by eyewitness accounts).
Some estimates are lower, some are higher, but this is the magnitude in question. In an article in CMU's student newspaper, the head of CMU's History Department, Peter Stearns, is quoted as saying that newly discovered documents -- especially in the former USSR -- indicate that the number of victims is higher than six million. Other historians claim not much over five million. The Encyclopedia of the Holocaust uses 5,596,000 as a minimum and 5,860,000 as a maximum (Gutman, 1990, p. 1799).
In summary:
"Revisionists" often claim, correctly, that the burden of proof is on historians. The proof, of course, has been a matter of public record since late 1945, and is available in libraries around the world. The burden has been met, many, many times over. You've just seen a brief presentation of some of the highlights of that immense body of proof; much more is readily available. To even argue that the Holocaust never happened is ludicrous. To claim straight-faced that none of this proof even exists is beyond ludicrous, and it is a clear example of "revisionist" dishonesty.

[Dr Mindbender]

http://www.holocaust-history.org/denial-hoax/

Holocaust Denial: Truth or Hoax?

One Survivor's Testimony


by William Samelson, Ph.D.
Visiting Professor, Trinity University

The Holocaust is an irrefutable fact. As a survivor of several labor and concentration camps, and as one whose entire family, save my elder brother, was murdered by Nazi thugs, I sincerely wish it had not occurred. It is also irrefutable that I am still here - a reminder of those barbaric acts perpetrated not so long ago on the European Jews by an ostensibly civilized German nation. Law-abiding, ordinary citizens of the Third Reich turned fanatical, implementing their beloved Führer's agenda of murder and destruction. They became killers for him and we became the survivors of his madness. We were not expected to remain alive and give testimony to their crimes against humanity. Alas, it can not be denied that I survived this disaster: the most horrendous calamity of the twentieth century. I am here, alive. I represent the tragic truth. It is my belief that I was spared for this purpose. It is now my moral responsibility to bear witness for as long as I shall live, for I am the truth and will not be silenced by lies. To deny the truth, the awful facts of the Holocaust, is simply to lie.
The evidence, of course, is overwhelming. The countless photographs (most of them taken by Nazi SS and military personnel), testimonies of survivors, and Allied liberators as well as from Nazi documentation media and their war-time propaganda films all prove that this mass Judeocide took place. Yet, there are a number of people that claim it was all nothing more than a hoax. These deniers call themselves "revisionist historians." Their express purpose is to alter documented historical fact. In the process, they turn scholarship into mockery, transforming truth into a make-believe fantasy spawned from unmitigated cynicism. They use the resulting misinformation to spread their anti-Jewish beliefs to the general public. Moreover, their theories, derived from blatant fabrication of data, misquotations, and quotations used out of context, are presented under the deceptive mask of scholarship and are made available to the world by way of the Internet, radio, and television. Although only relatively few fringe groups, propagandists, and pseudo-scholars embrace Holocaust denial, their activity is increasing and the potential for their influence to grow is evident. Therefore, it is incumbent upon all Holocaust survivors, historians, and those sincere chroniclers of the Holocaust to inform the world of the truth before the peoples around the world potentially fall prey, over time, to collective amnesia and adopt a romantic mythical view of the past events.
In Mein Kampf (My Struggle), Adolf Hitler (http://www.holocaust-history.org/short-essays/adolf-hitler.shtml) expressed his belief that "the great masses of people...more easily fall victim to a big lie than to a little one" (p. 231); and that the simplest ideas "should be repeated thousands of times" so people will remember them (p. 185). Essentially, Holocaust denial is one big, bold, lie. In an attempt to legitimize the Nazi regime, revive National Socialism, forward their theory of a Jewish-Zionist conspiracy and, evidently, justify their virulent anti-Judaism, deniers repeat this lie over and over. They hide their aims under such legitimate-sounding organizations as the "Institute for Historical Review" and the "Committee for Open Debate on the Holocaust." Some deniers have the audacity call themselves "scholars" or "historians." Whichever way they chose to identify themselves, their intentions have nothing to do with the preservation of history but with its distortion.
The deniers' basic belief is that the "myth" of the Holocaust is a way for "organized world Jewry" to gain sympathy and financial support for the Zionist cause and to render themselves immune from criticism. Furthermore, the deniers also claim that the Allies' atrocities during the Second World War were just as bad, if not worse than the Nazis' atrocities, and finally, that Hitler did not even want war and did not order the extermination of the Jews in Europe. These are main points of the deniers' "big lie." Denying the fact that the Holocaust occurred makes about as much sense as claiming that the earth is flat. It was the meticulous Nazis themselves who produced a large portion of the documents now available to anyone who desires to peruse them. They all point to the deniers' hypocrisy and make it plain that their claim to a "Holocaust hoax" is an unmitigated farce. Furthermore, contrary to the deniers' assertions, Hitler was fully aware of and did, in fact, order the annihilation of the European Jews. The facts of the Holocaust are so well documented in serious scholarly accounts that denial of Hitler's responsibility for the murder of the Jews is too preposterous to require refutation and argument. Hitler explicitly stated his murderous intentions in some of his speeches, as in the following (http://www.holocaust-history.org/der-ewige-jude/hitler-19390130.shtml):
Today I want to be a prophet once more: If international finance Jewry inside and outside of Europe should succeed once more in plunging nations into another world war, the consequence will not be the Bolshevization of the earth and thereby the victory of Jewry, but the annihilation of the Jewish race in Europe...


http://www.holocaust-history.org/images/onepixel.gifhttp://www.holocaust-history.org/images/onepixel.gif
In fact, most serious historians also believe that the extermination of the Jews was Hitler's most consistent policy, in whose execution he persisted relentlessly. Hitler's compulsive-obsessive attitude in regard to the Jews may even have cost him his war. I can attest to the fact as one of the frequently "resettled" victims, that the Jewish transports of slave laborers and those destined for extermination in Hitler's killing factories, were always given highest priority right of way on our journeys. This was done even at the expense of retarding the flow of vital transports of materiel and personnel to the Nazi front lines at a time when those were critically needed.
To this day, documents demanding the annihilation of the European Jews are being discovered in Russian archives. Hitler's intentions, as outlined in his various speeches, written orders, and his Mein Kampf, were obvious. His obsession with war was also plain. Hitler raved incessantly about a "Holy War," "preparing for war," and a "plan for the next war" (pp. 658-660). After reading Hitler's speeches and his book, it is impossible not to acknowledge his plans for Germany, for Europe, and the world. The deniers ignore these words or grossly misconstrue them in order to formulate their own fanciful fables.
Another tenet of the deniers' philosophy is that there is a moral equivalence between the wartime actions of the Allies, which may have resulted in civilian deaths, such as the bombing of Dresden, and atrocities committed by the Nazis. It is similar to the comparison a few make between a legal execution and a murder during a robbery. One of the most prominent American "revisionist" historians, Harry Elmer Barnes claimed that:
...the atrocities of the Allies in the same period were more numerous as to victims and were carried out for the most part by methods more brutal and painful than alleged extermination in gas ovens ...

Barnes failed to note the difference between war casualties and the mass murder of the millions of non-combatant people. The Jews of Europe never declared a fight against Hitler in his "Holy War," although he vowed to annihilate them. War between armed military entities is not genocide, therefore Nazi atrocities are not comparable to the war action of the Allies. It is inappropriate to even compare the two. The deniers and the revisionists ignore the obvious distinctions between war and murder, Nazi pagan barbarism and Allied necessity.
Another revisionist claim, an obvious result of anti-Judaism, makes the assertion that the Jews' primary concern regarding the Holocaust is the acquisition of money. According to the deniers, Jews use the "hoax" of the Holocaust in order to milk money from sympathizers for their homeland in Israel and to accomplish total domination of the financial world. For example, the infamous French "revisionist," Paul Rassinier declared that:
...the aim of the Zionists is the gold of Fort Knox. If the plan should succeed - and all that is needed is for the American branch of international Zionism to get its hand on Wall Street - the Israeli home-port of the Diaspora would become the command post of all the world's industry. Then at the very least, it could be said that the designation 'Chosen People' which the Jews claim for themselves, would assume its full significance.

This is pseudo-historical interpretation to ridiculous limits. Sparked by their innate hatred of Jews, deniers stereotype Jews as money-grabbers, dishonest businessmen, and avaricious bankers. Through this racist-revisionist theory, the deniers can not only write off the Holocaust as a "hoax"; they can use it as a means to justify their misinterpretation of Jewish intent. As a survivor of the Holocaust, I can not permit this injustice being wrought on the millions of innocent victims of Nazi assassins. Allowing this deception to flourish unabated would subject all those gentle, beloved people to suffer their deaths a thousandfold. Clearly, the deniers' currency is counterfeit; mine is legitimate tender.
Their theories are proof positive that Holocaust deniers must be either incredibly ignorant or utterly unrealistic. But if Holocaust denial is so absurd, why should we bother to research its aims? I believe that in order to separate fact from fiction, it is important to learn about the fiction as well as the facts. As a survivor of the Holocaust, I have experienced the factual consequences of that tragic event at great losses to myself and my family. When I confront the deniers' fictional interpretations of the Holocaust, I can distinguish between them accordingly. Needless to say, there is a large segment of the general public that does not have this advantage. This population will inevitably grow with ignorance, ingrained prejudice or plain naiveté. There will always exist people who will be susceptible to the propaganda generated by the deniers of the Holocaust.
Even in America, TV show and radio hosts, in their efforts to gain better ratings, try to convey "both sides of the story" by inviting both Holocaust survivors (or historians) and Holocaust deniers to explain themselves on their programs. The problem with this idea is that the Holocaust did happen. There is no "other side" to the issue. The very fact that the radio-TV host invites the denier to the show in order to debate the issues opposite a survivor or a bona-fide historian gives the deniers' revisionist beliefs undeserved legitimacy and publicity.
Moreover, Holocaust denial has filtered through in other ways to an unsuspecting public. For instance, syndicated columnist Pat Buchanan, who twice ran for president, has made references to the so-called Holocaust "Survivor Syndrome" and claimed that it was "physically impossible for the gas chambers at Treblinka to have functioned as a killing apparatus." Although Holocaust denial is an idea shared only by a few fringe groups, Jew-baiters, and propagandists, its theories have already taken root in American media and politics. Historian Michael Sturmer asserts that "in a land without history, the future is controlled by those who determine the content of memory, who coin concepts and interpret the past." Such an assertion is especially applicable to the Holocaust. As we, the survivors, become scarce, there will be fewer sources of primary information about the Holocaust in the world. Furthermore, the essence of truth vested with the authority of the eyewitness, will no longer prevail. They will no longer be able to impress future generations with the horrors of Nazi genocide. It is hard to conceive whether or not the Holocaust denial movement could further its influence. However, it is up to the vigilance of authentic historians and serious scholars to prevent its spread by educating the general public on how to separate fact from fiction and valid historical interpretation from the "revisionist" propaganda. We hope that future generations of discerning individuals will realize that the deniers' diatribes are used not only to discredit the Holocaust victims, but also to tarnish the veracity of eyewitness accounts. Moses Maimonides said it most succinctly in his brilliant treatise Guide of the Perplexed (xxxi, p. 41): "...A proposition which can be proved by evidence is not subject to dispute, denial or rejection; no one but the ignorant would contradict it, and such contradiction is called 'denial of demonstrated proof.' Facts are only doubted by those who ignore things fully proved."
http://www.holocaust-history.org/images/onepixel.gif

[Kayser_Soso]

VERDICT OF SS-COURT
*******************

Excerpts from Verdict of the SS Court in Munich, against
SS-Untersturmfuehrer Max Taubner, 24 of May 1943
['The Good Old Days' - E. Klee, W. Dressen, V. Riess, The Free Press,
NY, 1988, p, 196-207]
-----------------------------------------------------------------

1. The accused shall not be punished because of the actions against
the Jews as such. The Jews have to be exterminated and none of the
Jews that were killed is any great loss. Although the accused should
have recognized that the extermination of the Jews was the duty of
Kommandos which were set up especially for this purpose, he should
be excused for considering himself to have the authority to take
part in the extermination of Jewry himself. Real hatred of the Jews
was the driving motivation for the accused. In the process he let
himself be drawn into committing cruel actions in Alexandriya which
are unworthy of a German man and an SS-officer. These excesses cannot
be justified, either, as the accused would like to, as retaliation
for the pain that the Jews have caused the German people. It is not
the German way to apply Bolshevic methods during the necessary
extermination of the worst enemy of our people. In so doing the
conduct of the accused gives rise to considerable concern. The
accused allowed his men to act with such vicious brutality that
they conducted themselves under his command like a savage horde...

2. By taking photographs of the incidents or having photographs
taken, by having these developed in photographic shops and showing
them to his wife and friends, the accused is guilty of disobedience.
Such pictures could pose the gravest risks to the security of the
Reich if they fell into the wrong hands...


Dismissal of the case against the remaining parties, 1 June 1943

The following has been established on the basis of the main trial
of SS-Untersturmfuehrer Max Taubner...
The following men were party to the punishable acts committed or
ordered by SS-Untersturmfuehrer Max Taubner:

1. SS-Unterscharfuehrer Walter Muller particularly stood out during
the shootings of Jews with the brutality with which he tore small
Jewish children from their mothers. He held these children in
front of him with his left hand and then, with his right hand,
shot them with a pistol.

.
. [three more SS-personnel accused]
.

Allowances have been made for the fact that the accused were, without
exception, acting on the orders of and under the responsibility
of Untersturmfuehrer Max Taubner. In this respect, their own
culpability may be described as slight...

The cases against these accused have therefore been dismissed.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Are there people on this site who don't think the holocaust actually happened (:blink:!?) or is this just to compile arguments and evidence to use against deniers?

[Dr Mindbender]

Are there people on this site who don't think the holocaust actually happened (:blink:!?) or is this just to compile arguments and evidence to use against deniers?

i started this thread for the benefit of people involved in debates beyond this site and for a more removed purpose, the benefit of holocaust-sceptic lurkers. Either way its good to archive this stuff.

Back on topic please. :)

[Sasha]

trashed all the offtopic stuff

[devoration1]

You might be interested in a book called, "The Eichmann Kommandos," written by Judge Musmanno, one of the judges at Nuremberg (he presided over the prosecution of Einsatzgruppen group leaders and functionaries). It was written/published in 1961, and gives a record of the trials and memorable quotes from the defendants and prosecutors, with portions of Nazi war time documents relating to the Einsatzgruppen, Eichmann, the Final Solution, etc. It documents the physical evidence that was used to prove that the Einsatzgruppen murdered approximately 1 million Jews and others.

It is excellent for anyone who wants to debunk revisionists/negationists. Or get some specific documentary evidence from Nazi sources themselves about the application of the Final Solution from beginning to end.

Examples:


The Einsatzgruppen forces had been instructed by Eichmann that each sub-Kommando leader was to inform his Kommando leader what his unit had accomplished each day, and the Kommando leader at the end of each day was to report to the Einsatzgruppe leader the total of the executions recorded by his sub-Kommandos. The Einsatzgruppe chief was then to trasmit the records by wireless, mail, and (when occasion required) by courier to Eichmann in the Gestapo headquarters, Amt IV, B4 section of the RHSA. Finally, Eichmann would prepare duplicates of the reports and distribute them to Hitler, Himmler, Heydrich, Goebbels, Goering and the other members of the Nazi heiarchy so that they might be kept abreast of the progress toward race purification which would assure the Nazi state a life of 1,000 years, as prophecised by the Fuerher.

-Page 67


Operation Report No. 132, speaking of the activities of Einsatzkommando 5, between October 13 and October 19, 1941, said that in addition to executing 21 people guilty of sabotage and looting, and 1,847 Jews, it shot 300 insane Jews, which achievement, according to the author, "represented a particularly heavy burden for the members of Einsatzkommando 5 who were in charge of the operation."

Operation Report No. 150, dated January 2, 1942, referring to actions in the Western Crimea, sated, as if talking of cleaning out swamps, "Simferopol, Jewpatoria, Aluschta, Karasubasar, Keetsch and Feodasia and other districts of the Western Crimea have been cleaned of Jews."

Not infrequently, a report writer would embellish his written account with a sketch or map. Within the boundaries of the geographical area covered by his unit he would draw a coffin and superimpose over it a numeral representing the number of Jews killed to that date. Outside the casket would appear another figure proclaiming the number yet to be killed.

P.74-75

These Operation Reports related to the Reich Main Security Office/RHSA/'Reichssicherheitshauptamt' mentioned are most likely available in the National Archives in Washington, DC. Anyone interested can go there and look them up, and read the originals for yourself.

The RHSA was divided into 7 units or sections- Personnel, Budget & Economy, SD Inside Germany, Gestapo, Kripo, SD Outside Germany and Ideological Research. Each unit is designated 'Amt I - VII' (Office/Dept 1 - 7). The Gestapo was designated Amt IV (RHSA Department 4). The Gestapo was divided into 6 subsections (A - F). The second section of the Gestapo, Section B, dealt with "Jewish Affairs". This organization was thus designated Amt IV, B4 of the RHSA - and its only function was the systematic extermination of the Jews in every territory occupied by Germany (including Germany proper). Eichmann was at the head of this organization, the Einsatzgruppen A - D (Action Groups A, B, C, D) - Amt IV, B4 of the RHSA. Einsatzgruppe A was lead by Walter Stahlecker, Einsatzgruppe B was lead by Arthur Nebe, Einsatzgruppe C was lead by Otto Rasch, and Einsatzgruppe D was lead by Otto Ohlendorf. They each were in charge for a specific area of occupied territory, so that every square inch of Nazi land had someone responsible for the extermination of Jews there.

I list all of the specifics for the convenience of any deniers/negationists who wish to look up the actual SS records kept by the German Reich's government themselves. Documentary proof of the Holocaust, as testified to by the men who carried it out.

[Forward Union]

Can I just say that, in Most western countries, and I think the European east as well. The Holocaust is so unquestionably real, that people who even consider debunking it are performing such a fantastically self-destructive PR move that they ought to be allowed to get on with it. If there was a genuine debate on the matter, then we ought to spend time setting the facts straight, but let's not go overboard. There isn't much room in the public for Holocaust denial, the idea that the moon landing was faked is a more widely accepted conspiracy theory.

Granted, we do have governments in the world that do not recognise the Holocaust or other Genocides, I know that unfortunately a lot of Arabs (As I understand it, a lot of Palestinians) deny the Holocaust, but that's probably more a result of the "fuck you" impact that such philosophies have. Also due to the lack of exposure to the evidence and discussion around the Holocaust in General. Nothing that proper schooling and reason can't fix in time, assuming they ever receive such a thing away from Religious/political agendas, or other threats like say, Israeli bombs.

[Comrade Outlaw]

The holocaust did happen, but the amount the Nazi's gassed was roughly 450k/500k. The majority died of starvation.

I find it strange that its a crime (in eu law) to deny that the holocaust happened, the only place its legal in Europe to even suggest such a thing, is the united kingdom.

[The Feral Underclass]

The holocaust did happen, but the amount the Nazi's gassed was roughly 450k/500k. The majority died of starvation.

Rudolf Hoess testified both in court and later in his memoirs that approximately 2 million people were gassed in Auschwitz alone (a figure that was provided to him by Adolf Eichmann). He also described a detailed working knowledge of that process. How do you account for that?

[The Feral Underclass]

You might be interested in a book called, "The Eichmann Kommandos," written by Judge Musmanno, one of the judges at Nuremberg (he presided over the prosecution of Einsatzgruppen group leaders and functionaries). It was written/published in 1961, and gives a record of the trials and memorable quotes from the defendants and prosecutors, with portions of Nazi war time documents relating to the Einsatzgruppen, Eichmann, the Final Solution, etc. It documents the physical evidence that was used to prove that the Einsatzgruppen murdered approximately 1 million Jews and others.

It is excellent for anyone who wants to debunk revisionists/negationists. Or get some specific documentary evidence from Nazi sources themselves about the application of the Final Solution from beginning to end.

Examples:



-Page 67



P.74-75

These Operation Reports related to the Reich Main Security Office/RHSA/'Reichssicherheitshauptamt' mentioned are most likely available in the National Archives in Washington, DC. Anyone interested can go there and look them up, and read the originals for yourself.

The RHSA was divided into 7 units or sections- Personnel, Budget & Economy, SD Inside Germany, Gestapo, Kripo, SD Outside Germany and Ideological Research. Each unit is designated 'Amt I - VII' (Office/Dept 1 - 7). The Gestapo was designated Amt IV (RHSA Department 4). The Gestapo was divided into 6 subsections (A - F). The second section of the Gestapo, Section B, dealt with "Jewish Affairs". This organization was thus designated Amt IV, B4 of the RHSA - and its only function was the systematic extermination of the Jews in every territory occupied by Germany (including Germany proper). Eichmann was at the head of this organization, the Einsatzgruppen A - D (Action Groups A, B, C, D) - Amt IV, B4 of the RHSA. Einsatzgruppe A was lead by Walter Stahlecker, Einsatzgruppe B was lead by Arthur Nebe, Einsatzgruppe C was lead by Otto Rasch, and Einsatzgruppe D was lead by Otto Ohlendorf. They each were in charge for a specific area of occupied territory, so that every square inch of Nazi land had someone responsible for the extermination of Jews there.

I list all of the specifics for the convenience of any deniers/negationists who wish to look up the actual SS records kept by the German Reich's government themselves. Documentary proof of the Holocaust, as testified to by the men who carried it out.

I'm glad to have finally met someone else with a deeper general knowledge of the holocaust than usually exists. I'm not alone!

Have you read the Eichmann transcripts? Incredibly interesting read if you haven't.

[Kayser_Soso]

The holocaust did happen, but the amount the Nazi's gassed was roughly 450k/500k. The majority died of starvation.

I find it strange that its a crime (in eu law) to deny that the holocaust happened, the only place its legal in Europe to even suggest such a thing, is the united kingdom.

Usually the same people who claim most of the people died of starvation/typhus are the same people who would never allow such an argument to be made about the USSR(where it is true and documented; most people in the USSR died either by famine or disease in the 1930s and 40s.)

Point out that in many cases, the people in towns near the camp weren't starving, that large stores of food were found in some camps, under lock and key, and that the guards weren't starving. Also point out that the Nazis didn't document some massive typhus outbreak, and it would have been in their best interest to do so.

[Sasha]

Have you read the Eichmann transcripts? Incredibly interesting read if you haven't.

is this the court transcripts, eichmans own in captivity written diary or the sassen tapes?

anyone any idea where i can find the transcripts of the sassen tapes? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willem_Sassen#The_Eichmann_interviews)

here are by the way the complete transcripts of the eichman trial:
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/e/eichmann-adolf/transcripts/

[Comrade Outlaw]

I watched a documentary on the history channel or the discovery channel can't remember which now and it said most of them died from starvation.
I think the advancing Soviets could of killed some of the Jews also and blamed it on the Nazi's, though that is just a thought, rather than an established theory.
Personally, i think it would serve the purpose of the capitalists to exaggerate the figure.

Though i do not see the importance of highlighting the holocaust, i think the present day ethnic cleansing which is taking place in africa, asia and latin america is a lot more important.

two things more important than the holocaust (relating to it though); America granting asylum to leading Nazi's post-war and American companies supplying the Nazi's with the gas which was used in the chambers.

[Also comrade, haven't you seen the footage of the allies rolling into camps and their just being hordes of people lying on the ground starving? I think the allies didn't have the capacity/were unwilling to stop and feed them, and basically left them to die]

[Sasha]

[Also comrade, haven't you seen the footage of the allies rolling into camps and their just being hordes of people lying on the ground starving? I think the allies didn't have the capacity/were unwilling to stop and feed them, and basically left them to die]

An extract from the diary of Lieutenant Colonel Mervin Willett Gonin DSO who was
among the first British soldiers to liberate Bergen-Belsen in 1945.


I can give no adequate description of the Horror Camp in which my men and myself were to spend the next month of our lives. It was just a barren wilderness, as bare as a chicken run. Corpses lay everywhere, some in huge piles, sometimes they lay singly or in pairs where they had fallen. It took a little time to get used to seeing men women and children collapse as you walked by them and to restrain oneself from going to their assistance. One had to get used early to the idea that the individual just did not count. One knew that five hundred a day were dying and that five hundred a day were going on dying for weeks before anything we could do would have the slightest effect. It was, however, not easy to watch a child choking to death from diptheria when you knew a tracheotomy and nursing would save it, one saw women drowning in their own vomit because they were too weak to turn over, and men eating worms as they clutched a half loaf of bread purely because they had to eat worms to live and now could scarcely tell the difference. Piles of corpses, naked and obscene, with a woman too weak to stand proping herself against them as she cooked the food we had given her over an open fire; men and women crouching down just anywhere in the open relieving themselves of the dysentary which was scouring their bowels, a woman standing stark naked washing herself with some issue soap in water from a tank in which the remains of a child floated. It was shortly after the British Red Cross arrived, though it may have no connection, that a very large quantity of lipstick arrived. This was not at all what we men wanted, we were screaming for hundreds and thousands of other things and I don't know who asked for lipstick. I wish so much that I could discover who did it, it was the action of genius, sheer unadulterated brilliance. I believe nothing did more for these internees than the lipstick. Women lay in bed with no sheets and no nightie but with scarlet red lips, you saw them wandering about with nothing but a blanket over their shoulders, but with scarlet red lips. I saw a woman dead on the post mortem table and clutched in her hand was a piece of lipstick. At last someone had done something to make them individuals again, they were someone, no longer merely the number tatooed on the arm. At last they could take an interest in their appearance. That lipstick started to give them back their humanity.

[Comrade Outlaw]

I think I've read that before somewhere, the beginning bit sounds familiar. One thing that this event makes me wonder, what is human nature if we are capable of such things to one another?

[The Feral Underclass]

is this the court transcripts, eichmans own in captivity written diary or the sassen tapes?

anyone any idea where i can find the transcripts of the sassen tapes? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willem_Sassen#The_Eichmann_interviews)

here are by the way the complete transcripts of the eichman trial:
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/e/eichmann-adolf/transcripts/

I was talking about the tapes.

[Sasha]

shit, there is an transcript out there? as far as i heard its only in the israeli and german archives and not available to the public yet.
any idea where i can find it?

[The Feral Underclass]

shit, there is an transcript out there? as far as i heard its only in the israeli and german archives and not available to the public yet.
any idea where i can find it?

Sorry man, I was talking about the Israeli interrogation transcripts.

No, I wish I could read/listen to them too. Sorry if I got your hopes up.

[Tavarisch_Mike]

I was going to say the same as Forward Union, about if we actually need a thread for presenting evidence of such a well known, well documentated and well sourced event in history. But apperently there semms to be a need for this, since comradoutlaw have showed us that there is people who are inmune against knowledge.
Anyway, i would like to know if there is some one who knows how many died in the holocoust? When i was a kid they toold us in scholl that the exact ammount of murdered people where around 11 million (6 millione where jews as we all know), but ive heard different numbers since then.

[Kornilios Sunshine]

Here is some proof
http://lazerbrody.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2008/04/30/holocaust.jpg
http://sherryx.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/holocaust00.jpg
http://www.instablogsimages.com/images/2009/08/18/holocaust_mass_grave_belsen_kuiks_19886.jpg
http://www.veteranstoday.com/story_images2/holocaust.jpg
http://www.martinfrost.ws/htmlfiles/camp_children1.jpg
7bI1ucr_Y3U

[Tim Cornelis]

A very good link to an article by Deborah Lipstadt who also wrote a book on Holocaust denial (and why it's dead wrong, of course):

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/worldwars/genocide/deniers_01.shtml

[SocialistTommy]

The holocaust happened ? of course it did ! though I do think Zionists use it to self defend themselves.

[Mista Commie]

I still don't see how people don't believe the Holocaust happened. I shake my head in disdain when someone says they don't think it happened, or if they are apathetic.

[TheRedJew]

proof?
there used to be millions of jews in europe
they disapperd between 1933-1945
what do you think?

[Nico Belic]

I just stumbled upon this.

I really cannot believe people deny the holocaust, it actually is pathetic. It's almost like saying the original gameboy was colour, so far from the truth.

[Doflamingo]

Quite a few "libertarians" have been denying it lately. I think capitalist-libertarians are the new neo-nazis.

[Invader Zim]

Quite a few "libertarians" have been denying it lately. I think capitalist-libertarians are the new neo-nazis.

Source?

[Dropdead]

Quite a few "libertarians" have been denying it lately. I think capitalist-libertarians are the new neo-nazis.

That's probably the most retarded thing I've ever heard.

[Le Socialiste]

That's probably the most retarded thing I've ever heard.

TheExAnarchist, we don't engage in ableism on this forum. Please abstain from these kinds of posts in the future.

Verbal Warning for discriminatory language.

[Nicolas_Cage]

lLcmAwBJgng

2007 movie called Werewolf Women of the SS starring yours truly. Rob Zombie directed it. It was a pretty entertaining flick, if you ask me. Why not check it out?

[#FF0000]

Source?


That's probably the most retarded thing I've ever heard.

Er, folks like Samuel Konkin III are pretty well known holocaust-deniers.

I think it's more common among the "conspiracy theorist weirdo" group of libertarians.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

Didn't they prove the holocaust in 1945? Holocaust deniers are like flat-earthers, except at least the flat-earthers aren't denying the suffering of 11 million Jews, homosexuals, Roma, disabled people, etc

[Invader Zim]

Er, folks like Samuel Konkin III are pretty well known holocaust-deniers.

I think it's more common among the "conspiracy theorist weirdo" group of libertarians.

I don't not believe it. I was just wondering if there was some article or whatever noting commenting on the phenomenon. Or maybe a link to a few key examples.

[Nicolas_Cage]

I don't not believe it. I was just wondering if there was some article or whatever noting commenting on the phenomenon. Or maybe a link to a few key examples.

You "don't not" believe it? I'm not trying to insult you or anything but this needs to be cleared up. Do you mean that you do believe it or was this a mistake?

-NC

[Doflamingo]

Source?

Just referring to the ones on 4chan.

[Dropdead]

Source?

Go to /pol/ on 4chan and you will meet every holocaust denying libertarian.

[Flying Purple People Eater]

I don't even understand why nazis would even deny the holocaust. Wouldn't it make more sense for them to take pride in it or something?

On topic - How about the dropping of total world Yiddish speakers from 12 million (a lot for the era) just before the second world war down to around two million after the it ended? That's ten million speakers that just happened to disappear? Did those people just decide to forget their native language? :laugh:

No, it was because Ashkenazic jews were brutally and systematically oppressed and slaughtered under nazi rule. Culture, language, and most importantly, life was destroyed - it is estimated that 5 of the 6 million Jews killed in the holocaust were Yiddish speakers (83%) source: Solomo Birnbaum - Grammar of the Yiddish language.

[Captain Ahab]

I don't even understand why nazis would even deny the holocaust. Wouldn't it make more sense for them to take pride in it or something?

How are you gonna recruit people into your ideology if it was responsible for a genocide its adherents are glad happened?

[Orange Juche]

I think capitalist-libertarians are the new neo-nazis.

I've been saying this for a while.

[Soman]

In response to the video "Himmler gives order for Holocaust", there was concentration camps before 1943. Originally the Germans tried to MOVE the Jews OUT of Europe(the 'final solution' implies other solutions). They eventually just started to exterminate people (the final solution), which is likely what Himmler is calling for there, I assume.

[Goblin]

Quite a few "libertarians" have been denying it lately. I think capitalist-libertarians are the new neo-nazis.
Alot of Stormfronters actually hold right-wing "libertarian" views. Stormfronts founder Don Black is a friend of Ron Paul.

http://ronpaulsupporters.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/ron-paul-white-power.jpg

[Lex Talionis]

To be honest, whether or not the Holocaust happened is irrelevant to me. I don't need a tragic event of ethnic cleansing to justify going against an ideology which advocates imperialism, anti-Semitism, racism, etc. all in the name of some pseudo-supremacy of German people above us. Proclaiming they are superior because of the unproven claims that Aryans are the "creators of all culture and greatness," and are therefore superior to all else. Not to mention I see racial supremacy in any form to be deplorable.

We shouldn't be focusing on the Holocaust to be honest. Whether or not it happened it shouldn't affect how you view Nazism.

[bcbm]

i think there is a slight difference between 'has offensive ideas' and 'has offensive ideas and carried out an industrial genocide across most of europe'

[Workers-Control-Over-Prod]

To be honest, whether or not the Holocaust happened is irrelevant to me. I don't need a tragic event of ethnic cleansing to justify going against an ideology which advocates imperialism, anti-Semitism, racism, etc. all in the name of some pseudo-supremacy of German people above us. Proclaiming they are superior because of the unproven claims that Aryans are the "creators of all culture and greatness," and are therefore superior to all else. Not to mention I see racial supremacy in any form to be deplorable.

We shouldn't be focusing on the Holocaust to be honest. Whether or not it happened it shouldn't affect how you view Nazism.

Well its not to me. The rise of German Fascism, Hitler's Nazi Germany, and the participation of my grandparents in that genocidal machinery to enrich the bourgeois Fascists of Germany, is the foremost reason why I became critical towards capitalist society, hence a communist.

The oppressive fact that I had to grow up with as a child; to know that my Grandmother was working as a secretary for a german bank (most likely counting the millions and millions of Nazi Imperialist genocidal loot), that my grandfather was working as a Nazi German propagandist in Scandinavia, that my other Grandmother was in the Hitler-youth, that my other Grandfather was in the Hitler Youth and Volkswehr Western Front; that the remnants of Bourgeois Fascist ideology seeped through to me from petty remarks by my indoctrinated grandparents - all made me realize how capitalism is really nothing more than slavery, and that we must get free.

[bcbm]

yeah, it absolutely matters that the holocaust happened. don't give an inch to deniers. we're not against nazis because of the holocaust; communists, anarchists, swing kids, etc were fighting them well before they got to that point but we are against holocaust deniers. because they are nazis, or nazi apologists

[the debater]

This is straight from the Wikipedia article Holocaust denial:



Former SS members

Critics of Holocaust denial also include members of the Auschwitz SS. Camp physician and [link removed] Hans Munch considered the facts of Auschwitz "so firmly determined that one cannot have any doubt at all", and described those who negate what happened at the camp as "malevolent" people who have "personal interest to want to bury in silence things that cannot be buried in silence."[link removed] handler and SS- [link removed] Josef Klehr has said that anyone who maintains that nobody was gassed at Auschwitz must be "crazy or on the wrong". [link removed] Oswald [link removed] has stated that he does not consider those who maintain such a thing as normal people. Hearing about Holocaust denial compelled former [link removed] [link removed] to publicly speak about what he witnessed at Auschwitz, and denounce Holocaust deniers, stating:
I would like you to believe me. I saw the gas chambers. I saw the crematoria. I saw the open fires. I was on the ramp when the selections took place. I would like you to believe that these atrocities happened because I was there.

[Craig_J]

A friend of mine was telling me about his family tree once. He had a very small family, just him his siblings his parents and grandparents. He was looking at this tree he told me when he was about 9. He couldn't work out why he hadn't met any of these relatives and why some did not have children and died around the same sort of times. That's when he was told that 30 members of his family were taken away when Germany was under the control of Nazi's and never seen again.

To be honest I don't need any proof and neither should these deneirs. The fact that millions of people would have to of been involved in this "conspiracy" is enough to show how ridiculous their ideas are.

[Fred]

In the end, it is pretty simple. There were 3 million Jews in Poland at the start of WWII. After? Less than 40K. And they sure as hell didn't all go to live in Israel, ya know. . . . I don't know what the numbers are in the different European countries, but I think they are similar. Almost every Jew knows someone that lost family during the holocaust.

[the debater]

From the Wikipedia article on Zyklon B:


Holocaust deniers claim that Zyklon B gas was not used in the gas chambers, relying for evidence on the low levels of residues of Prussian blue in samples of the gas chamber walls and ceilings found by Fred Leuchter.However, as we move further along into the future:


In 1994, the Institute for Forensic Research in Krakow re-examined this claim on the grounds that formation of Prussian blue by exposure of bricks to cyanide is not a highly probable reaction. Using more sophisticated microdiffusion techniques, they tested 22 samples from the gas chambers, delousing chambers (as positive controls), and living quarters (as negative controls), finding cyanide residue in both the delousing chambers and the ruins of the gas chambers but none in the ruins of the living quarters.

[Viktor89]

Books worth reading is Ordinary Men, about a nazi police battallion. Also there is an interview with an old swedish SS volunteer on swedish television SVT somewhere who talked about what he saw during his time on the ostfront. Also read Guido Knopp's "SS the mighty tool of evil". In all of these there is documents and evidence from the mass shootings on the eastern front and the death camps.

Also they recently released new horrible film evidence from death camps on the 70th anniversary of the liberation of Auschwitz. Lots of clips that was part of a documentary "directed" by Hitchcock, the film was never released back then but now they put it together in a documentary about this footage. Show all holocaust deniers this film: Night Will Fall.

[Viktor89]

Holocaust deniers usually bring up this, that the Auschwitz camp complex was liberated by the Red Army, which held the camp closed for many years until they opened it up in the 50's to show the world. The nazis claim that the russians, during this time it was closed from the public, built up not re-constructions of the gas chambers (they did this as the nazis destroyed them during the last months before they evacuated the camp and took many prisoners on death marches) but invented the idea themselves and that none of the gas chambers there were built by germans. This is ridiculous and insane, as there exists eyewitnesses from both the few surviving jews forced to clean up the chambers, remove bodies, etc. And from people who saw the chambers.

[cyu]

At first I thought this was a thread about making it impossible for the Holocaust to happen again, rather than a thread about proving it actually happened.

Personally I think the former topic would be much more useful and relevant.

[bcbm]

At first I thought this was a thread about making it impossible for the Holocaust to happen again, rather than a thread about proving it actually happened.

Personally I think the former topic would be much more useful and relevant.

so why not make a post about it instead of complaining here

[Viktor89]

At first I thought this was a thread about making it impossible for the Holocaust to happen again, rather than a thread about proving it actually happened.

Personally I think the former topic would be much more useful and relevant.

Sorry, nothing against you, you know, but this is a very important thread, I've seen left wing people confront holocaust denying nazis with not very effective results from such a debate, as the nazis are focusing on details that doesn't matter but makes them look like they know everything. The left needs to be able to always to 110% make nazis not be able to deny this crime. The holocaust can happen again if the scum succeeds in making people think it was not as horrible as they say. The holocaust must always be remembered and people need to be able to show nazis they are wrong with their fake facts.

[cyu]

seen left wing people confront holocaust denying nazis with not very effective results from such a debate


True. Not trying to say this thread should be trashed or anything.

Maybe it's a bit like why we have restricted people on this forum. If cappies ran amok here, then basically we'd just be wasting our time talking about the most useless and simplistic debate points, instead of moving on to the real meat of any issue. Kind of like people trying to build a house constantly being distracted by those who believe houses can't work and we should just live in caves.

If there's a debate between X1 and X2 "versions" of the truth going on, what if instead of discussing the relative merits of either one, you discuss Y instead, which assumes X1 to be true? Kind of like assuming the facts of history have already been settled, and you move on to their solutions. Even if someone claims the Holocaust didn't happen, their points are kind of useless in a discussion about how to prevent a future Holocaust. Whether any particular wolf attack happened isn't especially important in a discussion about how to prevent wolf attacks.

The "proof" by assumption thing happens unintentionally in real life too, which isn't necessarily a good thing. Many discussions are based on both sides having the same assumptions, sometimes even when the assumptions aren't true. However if you believe proving the assumptions are a waste of time, you can still just intentionally move on.

Another tactic when dealing with X1 vs X2 debates is to move much further back, at the roots of the debate (which may actually be what deniers are doing when questioning the very basis of Holocaust discussions). Instead of dealing with details of the Holocaust, consider why they are a neo-Nazi in the first place - it probably doesn't have anything to do with the Holocaust at all. Maybe it's frustration with their economic situation. Maybe they're angry because they can't get a date, and doubly angry now that their sister or mother is seeing someone with a "lower" background. From my experience, racists appear to be people with very low self-esteem (perhaps due to the capitalist social structure placed above them) - they can't think of anything good to say about themselves personally, so they attempt to find fault in large groupings of "others" instead - "Hey, I might not be such a special group A guy, but at least I'm better than that entire class of people in group B." Might sound all new-agey, but I'd predict they'd forget all about their racism if they found a real sense of self - ie. sources of self-esteem beyond "I can only feel good about myself if other groups are deemed inferior." You'd have to use tactics more indirect than simple psychological therapy though, since these are probably the type who would feel inferior if they admit they have psychological disorders.

[JayBro47]

Operation Reinhardt, Chelmno, Sobidor, Warsaw Ghetto Uprising, were all non-disputable. Happening between 1941-1943, obviously does not show the idea that the end of the war's chaotic situation in Germany caused wide-spread starvation, etc. Vrba-Wexler Report of Early 1942. Allied Condemnation of Holocaust in December 1942. So the idea of a post-war chaotic unintended "death-cries" of the Reich, which was used to frame the German Master Race in favor of Zionism, etc, isn't true here.

[Viktor89]

Goebbels diaries are also a good proof, he writes on many pages how the jews are "destroyed". In March 13, 1945 he writes that the world will follow Germany's example in killing the jews. Why would the top elite in the 3rd Reich write this in his private diaries if it didn't happen?

[BerniecratLaura]

How the fuck is this even still argued? There is physical proof. The gas chambers are still there. There are survivors. I've had the privilege of speaking to an American veteran who freed a camp.

[IbelieveInanarchy]

How the fuck is this even still argued? There is physical proof. The gas chambers are still there. There are survivors. I've had the privilege of speaking to an American veteran who freed a camp. "still argued" this thread died out in may,2015 and you necro it. There is no dicussion here, just obvious proof to show anyone how fucking stupid fascists are.