Status Quo assholes

[Scary Monster]

So ive been thinking for quite a while-- what do the highly-educated western elite and bourgeoisie ultimately want besides reducing profit margins to its lowest level, control over the world's resources, and maintaining their illusion of authority and empire?

Its pretty mindblowing how those in control (currently the Bourgeoisie) have manifested entire social systems, networks and cities, philosophies, wars etc., to dictate the way people live their entire lives, for the sole purpose of making extraordinary profit!
How is it that any human, educated in the most prestigious schools in the world, do not mind, in short, raping 95% of the world population for the benefit of themselves. Do they really think that by spreading capitalism to every single nation, they will create a "land of milk and honey"? I mean, i absolutely cannot fathom how anybody can live with the knowledge that they are directly responsible- or at least part of a class that is responsible- for centuries of the world's unhappiness, extreme poverty, unnecessary deaths and war, on their conscience. What motivates them to do all this? It doesnt make any sense how they do all this at the expense of billions of people.

[Red Commissar]

Humans are selfish. So as long as they benefit, all is good.

As for why the common man accepts this as a good thing, that is social hegemony for you. People have accepted the values of the bourgeoisie as their own.

[punisa]

Humans are selfish. So as long as they benefit, all is good.

As for why the common man accepts this as a good thing, that is social hegemony for you. People have accepted the values of the bourgeoisie as their own.

Not all humans are selfish. If that indeed was the case, our struggle would be futile.

But I think I know what you were referring too. I agree, there are many members of the working class who work hard imaging how great it would be to be on of the bourgeoisie.
That is true.
But then again, you have majority (I hope) who simply want to live decent lives.



So ive been thinking for quite a while-- what do the highly-educated western elite and bourgeoisie ultimately want besides reducing profit margins to its lowest level, control over the world's resources, and maintaining their illusion of authority and empire?


Being highly-educated and living in the west is not a prerequisite for being an exploiter of the working class.
Let's not forget that virtually all revolutionaries and theorists who created the foundations for the proletariat struggle were highly educated - and thus likely members of the bourgeoisie themselves (Marx, Engels, Lenin, Mao, Che Guevara, Fidel Castro..)

This example might not correspond to the west, but let me mention it anyway. In Croatia - biggest capitalist exploiters are mainly uneducated oligarchs that got extremely wealthy during war and privatization.

Thinking that educated people are our natural enemy is a very slippery slope that leads to very extreme left. Pol pot comes to mind, he had all the people that wore glasses ordered to be killed. Because they presumably were "bourgeoisie". Soon they stopped wearing glasses to avoid being purged, but then soldiers started exploring people's skin around their nose to determine if they were wearing glasses before. It would be funny if it wasn't a horror story :(

At last - what makes one a leftist transcends economy and social class (at least in my book). It comes down to a simple question: "would you be willing to give up all your personal possessions and live in common-shared society of working people?"
We need positive answers on that one, everything else is trivial.

[RadioRaheem84]

You know I had always wondered whether the ruling class was conscious of what their ideas and plans were doing to the rest of us? They've really hidden this notion of whther they're conscious or not of thier standing in society from the public. We just go on thinking that thier interests are the same as ours. As it turns out they're highly conscious of thier status and role in society which is why they're always trying to get us to identify with their interests. No one in the White House flinched whenever a coup disposed of Chavez in 2002 and replaced his administration with an unelected cabal of wealthy elitist. The White House applauded that undemocratic move as democratic. The rest of the worlds establishments agreed. The upper classes of this world have convinced a large swathe of the public that they are the proprietors of democracy. Anything that hapenns to them effects democracy and liberty. It was at that moment that I saw the Washington and London administrations, along with the press, applaud the 2002 coup that it sunk in that what I read on class struggle is real. It went from reading Chomsky to reality. We are on the right side, comrades. The status quo must change.

[Klaatu]

Humans are selfish. So as long as they benefit, all is good.

As for why the common man accepts this as a good thing, that is social hegemony for you. People have accepted the values of the bourgeoisie as their own.

This may have it's roots in religion: "Think what you're told to think."

This is a conundrum, as religions also preach that greed is bad. Go figure.

[RadioRaheem84]

This may have it's roots in religion: "Think what you're told to think."

This is a conundrum, as religions also preach that greed is bad. Go figure.

Religion is a big part of it as the church has always sided with the ruling class and gives the establishment sort of a divine reign over the corrupted masses. We went from the Divine Right of Kings to the modern conservative mantra that tells us, "Capitalism is Biblical".

[Scary Monster]

Being highly-educated and living in the west is not a prerequisite for being an exploiter of the working class.
ization.
Thinking that educated people are our natural enemy is a very slippery slope that leads to very extreme left.

I didnt mean that the educated are all enemies of the working class, which would be an absurd idea to me. Im in school right now and i highly value education. What i meant was how it seems impossible that the elite, from so-called "top schools of the world" like Harvard or Princeton in the US (who presumably would understand the world as much as, if not more than, any other person) would not be conscious about the very negative social consequences of their actions on the majority of the world.


You know I had always wondered whether the ruling class was conscious of what their ideas and plans were doing to the rest of us? They've really hidden this notion of whther they're conscious or not of thier standing in society from the public. We just go on thinking that thier interests are the same as ours. As it turns out they're highly conscious of thier status and role in society which is why they're always trying to get us to identify with their interests. No one in the White House flinched whenever a coup disposed of Chavez in 2002 and replaced his administration with an unelected cabal of wealthy elitist. The White House applauded that undemocratic move as democratic. The rest of the worlds establishments agreed. The upper classes of this world have convinced a large swathe of the public that they are the proprietors of democracy. Anything that hapenns to them effects democracy and liberty. It was at that moment that I saw the Washington and London administrations, along with the press, applaud the 2002 coup that it sunk in that what I read on class struggle is real. It went from reading Chomsky to reality. We are on the right side, comrades. The status quo must change.

So thats where my question comes in- the bourgies do all these things like coups, murdering/bombing, collapsing economies and societies, just to secure their profits? Surely they must believe they are working toward some other kind of bigger, meaningful cause (however sinister that cause might be)? But If profit is the sole reason, then that's, for the lack of a better word, quite evil :thumbdown: Also pretty damn petty, considering the billions that have died as a result of the ruling class' actions.

[The Idler]

I didnt mean that the educated are all enemies of the working class, which would be an absurd idea to me. Im in school right now and i highly value education. What i meant was how it seems impossible that the elite, from so-called "top schools of the world" like Harvard or Princeton in the US (who presumably would understand the world as much as, if not more than, any other person) would not be conscious about the very negative social consequences of their actions on the majority of the world.



So thats where my question comes in- the bourgies do all these things like coups, murdering/bombing, collapsing economies and societies, just to secure their profits? Surely they must believe they are working toward some other kind of bigger, meaningful cause (however sinister that cause might be)? But If profit is the sole reason, then that's, for the lack of a better word, quite evil :thumbdown: Also pretty damn petty, considering the billions that have died as a result of the ruling class' actions.There's no evil conspiracy spanning the entire powerful elite. The elite who hold the power sincerely believe capitalism is beneficial and that wealth will trickle down. They find some justification in a few intellectuals who are given disproportionate influence. Most intellectuals don't hold power, and going to an elite university does not make you an intellectual, let alone able to understand poverty. The intellectuals who see society for what it is, tend to be the powerless ones.

[Red Commissar]

This may have it's roots in religion: "Think what you're told to think."

This is a conundrum, as religions also preach that greed is bad. Go figure.

Indeed, as RadioRaheem said religion has been used to justify captialism. It's another toll for the ruling class to use to form their hegemony and have people share their views. I mean, they used the bible to justify slavery so there's really no end to their nonsense. That reminds me of this bit from the Iron Heel.


"Yes, pig-ethics," Ernest went on remorselessly. "That is the meaning of the capitalist system. And that is what your church is standing for, what you are preaching for every time you get up in the pulpit. Pig-ethics! There is no other name for it."

Bishop Morehouse turned appealingly to my father, but he laughed and nodded his head.

"I'm afraid Mr. Everhard is right," he said. "LAISSEZ-FAIRE, the let-alone policy of each for himself and devil take the hindmost. As Mr. Everhard said the other night, the function you churchmen perform is to maintain the established order of society, and society is established on that foundation."

"But that is not the teaching of Christ!" cried the Bishop.

"The Church is not teaching Christ these days," Ernest put in quickly. "That is why the workingmen will have nothing to do with the Church. The Church condones the frightful brutality and savagery with which the capitalist class treats the working class."

"The Church does not condone it," the Bishop objected.

"The Church does not protest against it," Ernest replied. "And in so far as the Church does not protest, it condones, for remember the Church is supported by the capitalist class."
And I think this still holds truth today in many regards.



So thats where my question comes in- the bourgies do all these things like coups, murdering/bombing, collapsing economies and societies, just to secure their profits? Surely they must believe they are working toward some other kind of bigger, meaningful cause (however sinister that cause might be)? But If profit is the sole reason, then that's, for the lack of a better word, quite evil :thumbdown: Also pretty damn petty, considering the billions that have died as a result of the ruling class' actions.

In the same way slave owners thought they were "civilizing" their slaves. Honestly most of them feel they are doing things for the greater good and "liberty". Oddly, I have another relevant bit from the same book



They were taught, and later they in turn taught, that what they were doing was right. They assimilated the aristocratic idea from the moment they began, as children, to receive impressions of the world. The aristocratic idea was woven into the making of them until it became bone of them and flesh of them. They looked upon themselves as wild-animal trainers, rulers of beasts. From beneath their feet rose always the subterranean rumbles of revolt. Violent death ever stalked in their midst; bomb and knife and bullet were looked upon as so many fangs of the roaring abysmal beast they must dominate if humanity were to persist. They were the saviours of humanity, and they regarded themselves as heroic and sacrificing laborers for the highest good.

They, as a class, believed that they alone maintained civilization. It was their belief that if ever they weakened, the great beast would ingulf them and everything of beauty and wonder and joy and good in its cavernous and slime-dripping maw. Without them, anarchy would reign and humanity would drop backward into the primitive night out of which it had so painfully emerged. The horrid picture of anarchy was held always before their child's eyes until they, in turn, obsessed by this cultivated fear, held the picture of anarchy before the eyes of the children that followed them. This was the beast to be stamped upon, and the highest duty of the aristocrat was to stamp upon it. In short, they alone, by their unremitting toil and sacrifice, stood between weak humanity and the all-devouring beast; and they believed it, firmly believed it.

I cannot lay too great stress upon this high ethical righteousness of the whole oligarch class.

[RadioRaheem84]

So thats where my question comes in- the bourgies do all these things like coups, murdering/bombing, collapsing economies and societies, just to secure their profits? Surely they must believe they are working toward some other kind of cause (whatever that might be)? But If profit is the sole reason, then that's, for the lack of a better word, quite evilIf you understood their rational and took it seriously you would be one of them. I think the answer you're looking for has been largely left unexplained because we cannot fathom what they do as rational and a moral way of living. That's why answers to these questions are left sort of morally ambiguous; greed, selfishness, etc (or even a faith in capitalism they truly think helps humanity).

[RadioRaheem84]

There's no evil conspiracy spanning the entire powerful elite. The elite who hold the power sincerely believe capitalism is beneficial and that wealth will trickle down. They find some justification in a few intellectuals who are given disproportionate influence. Most intellectuals don't hold power, and going to an elite university does not make you an intellectual, let alone able to understand poverty. The intellectuals who see society for what it is, tend to be the powerless ones.

There are is no global connected elite conspiracy but there are local conspiracies to exert control of policy to favor the local business elite. This isn't a conspiracy in the right wing sort of sense but more like the usual business politics that dominate most liberal democracies and banana republics. Overall it's true that the elite believe that capitalism is beneficial and wealth will trickle down, even a lot of liberals believe that, but you cannot say that the upper classes are not highly conscious of the social position they're in and how they can easily effect policy to favor their class's interests.

[Scary Monster]

There are is no global connected elite conspiracy but there are local conspiracies to exert control of policy to favor the local business elite. This isn't a conspiracy in the right wing sort of sense but more like the usual business politics that dominate most liberal democracies and banana republics. Overall it's true that the elite believe that capitalism is beneficial and wealth will trickle down, even a lot of liberals believe that, but you cannot say that the upper classes are not highly conscious of the social position they're in and how they can easily effect policy to favor their class's interests.

Hmm so they think that by sacrificing the lives and livelihoods of countless numbers of people now, they will save humankind later, and suffering and struggle (besides the kind caused by nature) would cease to exist? If so, theyre beyond insane, to say the least.

[RadioRaheem84]

Hmm so they think that by sacrificing the lives and livelihoods of countless numbers of people now, they will save humankind later, and suffering and struggle (besides the kind caused by nature) would cease to exist? If so, theyre beyond insane, to say the least.

It's hard to fathom what a group of individuals think but my guess is that the current paradigm in the establishment world is that promoting growth in certain sectors will benefit people once things trickle down. They look at poverty as caused by a sordid set of factors; the state, crime, education, personal choices, etc. They don't think of poverty as stemming from the fact that a small sector of the population own all of the nation's wealth. They think numbers and statistics, while we think of social aspects that relate to economic inequality.

[punisa]

I didnt mean that the educated are all enemies of the working class, which would be an absurd idea to me. Im in school right now and i highly value education. What i meant was how it seems impossible that the elite, from so-called "top schools of the world" like Harvard or Princeton in the US (who presumably would understand the world as much as, if not more than, any other person) would not be conscious about the very negative social consequences of their actions on the majority of the world.

I know you were not referring to all educated people. I was just commenting on the broader topic.
What you say about top schools is true, they "drill" people in believing that what they do is right.
Also the fact that many people attending those schools are power hungry assholes in the first place only enforces the agenda.

[RadioRaheem84]

I know you were not referring to all educated people. I was just commenting on the broader topic.
What you say about top schools is true, they "drill" people in believing that what they do is right.
Also the fact that many people attending those schools are power hungry assholes in the first place only enforces the agenda.

Power hungry, maybe. Pro-establishment, yes. I attended what you would call a top school and it was hell to even be a progressive. I transferred from a real progressive state school to what I thought was going to be a top school where I could network with people in high places. It's true though, if you don't share trendy liberal values (that ironically change with each economic cycle) than you're better off attending another school because you won't get anything out of it.

What Chomsky writes about in regards to higher education, especially at top schools, is right on the money. It is just a camp for the next generation of the ruling class.