Is there anything we can do to combat the worrying trend of sexist jokes? [Archive]

Dooga Aetrus Blackrazor

7th February 2010, 03:36

I have mixed opinions on this. I like humor. I also have a weird character trait. I enjoy offending people. I find it hilarious. I very rarely make sexist jokes. There are enough people to make fun of that actually deserve it.

So yes, I can see the problems. I usually clarify that I am joking, or I am with people who realize I am joking. When I say offensive stuff, the fact that I'm so leftist ads some irony to the situation.

And those jokes are pretty lame. So yeah, I really vary my response depending on the context and who is telling the joke.

Jimmie Higgins

7th February 2010, 03:48

Is there anything we can do to combat the worrying trend of sexist jokes?On this website or in society at large?

In society at large I say on a one-on-one level, just call people out for sexist shit. Don't laugh at the joke and don't act scandalized - act bored by it if you are unable or afraid to call them out on the sexism - this will set the tone and they will probably get the hint. Or develop a handful of "idiot sexist" jokes to throw back and see if they find these jokes funny or shocking.

Ultimately it will take a new movement for woman's liberation and class solidarity to really combat these attitudes.

There are enough people to make fun of that actually deserve it.That's right! I love shocking people - particularly strangers... particularly when they are having an obnoxious cell-phone conversation while I'm stuck in line with them. Sexist and racist and homophobic jokes are not only bad for the obvious reasons but also because they are cheap and lazy!

In the history of piss-taking, mocking, and satire there are two traditions: making fun of people in power and making fun of the powerless. One is funny, shocking and brave - the other is weak, reactionary, and boring. One is George Carlin, the other is Dennis Miller.

7th February 2010, 07:30

On this website or in society at large?
Society at large, specifically "first world" countries as from observations that's where they seem to come from.

Il Medico

7th February 2010, 14:38

Depends on what the intention of the humor is I suppose. If it is satire and is actually trying critize and mock such reactionary ideas, then I don''t have a problem with it. But if it is just a cheap joke, then no, it is not acceptable.

Stand Your Ground

7th February 2010, 15:55

If you clarify that you are joking I don't see the problem.

manic expression

7th February 2010, 16:21

If you don't like a joke, step up and say so. "Everyone in here is being cool...we're all having fun...why you gotta be disrespectful to my friends???" Don't do it half-assed, bigots won't respond to anything but a strongly-put opinion.

Or, better yet, by witty:
"Make me a sandwich"
"I thought you ate carpet son!"

"Go back to the kitchen"
"Sorry, man, we don't speak pokemon". Just be creative, I think it makes bigots eat humble pie more than being totally serious. Plus, you can mess with those idiots while making other people laugh at the same time.

Kesha

7th February 2010, 21:42

Offensive humor is some of the easiest type of humor to create and can sometimes be some of the funniest. I'm not sure if the jokes themselves escalate hatred, but rather the attitude the listeners and presenter have when making the jokes is what you have to be concerned about. Ideally though, such jokes wouldn't exist- but I don't have a big issue with them, nor do I think anyone should take humor too seriously.

Jimmie Higgins

8th February 2010, 08:36

^Humor is always serious just as serious things are often the most humorous.

I don't find sexist jokes shocking not only because it play into oppression and anti-working class ideas but also because how shocking are sexist jokes in a society where we are bombarded with sexist ideas and imagery?

What would be shocking would be a white male comedian in the US that doesn't make the same hackneyed relationship jokes based on stereotypes of what men and women are supposed to be like.

Uncle Hank

8th February 2010, 20:16

When people make jokes like that and expect me to laugh I just give them a blank face to look in while they think about how horrible what they just said was. Like Jimmie Higgins said, it's going to take much more advancement in the struggle for sex equality and women's rights for jokes like that to be curbed in one way or another. Beyond that you can just try to make as many people aware of what they're doing by saying [what they say] as possible. But if you're overly aggressive about it then they'll probably find themselves believing they're a brave officer in the army fighting against political correctness or some shit.

Really, it's a matter of knowing when to call someone out and knowing who it's alright to do it to, if you're gonna try to make a difference.

If you clarify that you are joking I don't see the problem.
"She's such a dumb c*nt she doesn't know how to make a sandwich. After all she should know her purpose in life." "What the fuck is wrong with you, that's sick!" "Oh but I'm just joking, it's okay."

See the problem now?

whore

9th February 2010, 12:08

khad

12th February 2010, 06:03

http://rs2kpapers.awardspace.com/theory1db8.html?subaction=showfull&id=1134178385&archive=&cnshow=headlines&start_from=&ucat=&
http://www.revleft.com/vb/sexist-jokes-t39135/index.html

sexism is sexism. fuck that shit.

these jokes are not funny. they are perpetuating a stereotype. just like we should object if someone uses the word "gay" in a negative fashion (even if not refering to a gay man as such), so too should we object to sexist jokes, even if they are "funny"
Well, you obviously find racial sexism funny.

http://www.revleft.com/vb/dilemma-being-single-t128964/index.html?p=1670625&posted=1#post1670625

me so horny. me love you long time.

Expect female equivalent of manarchist response in 3, 2, 1...

Agnapostate

12th February 2010, 07:37

It's really my perverse love of dark humor above anything else that leads to my interest in "sexist" jokes that might offend the more sensitive...:cool:

http://awallens.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/80713250.jpg

http://rlv.zcache.com/i_like_my_women_like_my_coffee_ground_up_and_in_th _bumper_sticker-p128139266224182970trl0_400.jpg

whore

12th February 2010, 07:58

Well, you obviously find racial sexism funny.

http://www.revleft.com/vb/dilemma-being-single-t128964/index.html?p=1670625&posted=1#post1670625

Expect female equivalent of manarchist response in 3, 2, 1...
i suggest that saying "me so horny. me love you long time" or simply "me love you long time" is neither racist or sexist.
it's a phrase that originated in a film, was almost straight away picked up by a rap group, and has gone on to enter popular culture. along the way, it lost the history (coming from the film), and many people wouldn't know where it came from.

for another look, see this article:
http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/1591868/20080730/furtado_nelly.jhtml

of course, as with many phrases and words, it strongly depends on the context. in the context which you reference, i (user name "whore", another word for "prostitute") am using it in reference to a single person complaining about this fact. basically, me (the "whore"), can offer my services.

in the article referenced, there are different contexts mentioned. if it is yelled out at a women, or even if a man came up to a women in a bar and said it, then i would suggest it could be sexist. if it is only targetted at asian looking women, then it is probably sexist as well.

to an anonymous person on the internet, from an anonymous person on the internet, without any reference to race or gender, nah.

ZeroNowhere

12th February 2010, 11:19

See the problem now? It's not a funny joke, yes. Still, we should probably prioritize, Dane Cook is far worse. Or perhaps you're referring to the second guy overreacting being funnier than the actual attempted joke?

Well, you obviously find racial sexism funny.Keep personal attacks and other silly bollocks like this in PMs, thank you.

Dr Mindbender

12th February 2010, 18:00

khad

12th February 2010, 18:33

i suggest that saying "me so horny. me love you long time" or simply "me love you long time" is neither racist or sexist.
it's a phrase that originated in a film, was almost straight away picked up by a rap group, and has gone on to enter popular culture. along the way, it lost the history (coming from the film), and many people wouldn't know where it came from.

for another look, see this article:
http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/1591868/20080730/furtado_nelly.jhtml

of course, as with many phrases and words, it strongly depends on the context. in the context which you reference, i (user name "whore", another word for "prostitute") am using it in reference to a single person complaining about this fact. basically, me (the "whore"), can offer my services.

in the article referenced, there are different contexts mentioned. if it is yelled out at a women, or even if a man came up to a women in a bar and said it, then i would suggest it could be sexist. if it is only targetted at asian looking women, then it is probably sexist as well.

to an anonymous person on the internet, from an anonymous person on the internet, without any reference to race or gender, nah.

You're a hypocrite.

just like we should object if someone uses the word "gay" in a negative fashion (even if not refering to a gay man as such), so too should we object to sexist jokes, even if they are "funny"

Either drop your ridiculous sense of outrage or stop rationalizing your libertarian wankery. That phrase is only found funny because it is racist and misogynistic, mimicking the broken English of an immigrant and signaling their sexual availability.

Stuff like this got this user banned:
http://www.revleft.com/vb/ask-anonymous-anything-t127738/index.html?p=1657850#post1657850

actually, im 1/4 Brazilian, but otherwise im white and 19
Im not from 4ailchan
and saying "newfag" does not mean homosexual.

lol
True, "newfag" doesn't exactly mean homosexual, but around here it is OI talk. Just like your racist and sexist humor.

Consider this a Verbal Warning.

whore

12th February 2010, 23:51

You're a hypocrite.

Either drop your ridiculous sense of outrage or stop rationalizing your libertarian wankery. That phrase is only found funny because it is racist and misogynistic, mimicking the broken English of an immigrant and signaling their sexual availability.

Stuff like this got this user banned:
http://www.revleft.com/vb/ask-anonymous-anything-t127738/index.html?p=1657850#post1657850

True, "newfag" doesn't exactly mean homosexual, but around here it is OI talk. Just like your racist and sexist humor.

Consider this a Verbal Warning.
err, what does "verbal warning" mean?

anyway, i reject your argument, and request that you take it up in the mod forum so as to decided whether my comments are actually sexist or racist. if the concensus is that it is, well i'll refrain from saying such things. if the arguments are presented to me, and i agree with them, then i'll even retract my comments!

13th February 2010, 00:57

err, what does "verbal warning" mean?
It means that if you fuck up again, you're screwed.

khad

13th February 2010, 01:21

err, what does "verbal warning" mean?

anyway, i reject your argument, and request that you take it up in the mod forum so as to decided whether my comments are actually sexist or racist. if the concensus is that it is, well i'll refrain from saying such things. if the arguments are presented to me, and i agree with them, then i'll even retract my comments!
I already brought up the chit chat thread in the mod forum. It was recommended that the entire thread be warned for comments such as yours.

There is some leeway in Chit Chat. This, however, is a serious forum where this kind of crap will not be tolerated.

whore

13th February 2010, 02:05

I already brought up the chit chat thread in the mod forum. It was recommended that the entire thread be warned for comments such as yours.

There is some leeway in Chit Chat. This, however, is a serious forum where this kind of crap will not be tolerated.
err, and where did i post "crap"?

i made a comment. you said that in chit chat i made another comment, and therefore i was a hypocrite. somewhere in there i explained that i didn't think the comment made in chit chat was sexist or racist.

i didn't make the comment in this forum, that i had made in chit chat.

please explain why i am getting a verbal warning in this thread, when i didn't make the comment you are complaining about in this thread.

let's think about the word "gay" again for a minute. if a gay man said to another gay man "you're so gay" spoofing the manner that teenage heterosexual males say it to other teenage heterosexual males ("thm"), i would reject that it was homophobic. why? because it depends on context. of course, when thm say "you're gay" to other thm, then it probably is homophobic.

i, an anonymous person on the internet (with no obvious gender, "race" age etc.), making a comment to a person to the effect "you want to have sex with me? 'cause you know, you're a lonely person" (that's how i saw it anyway), to another anonymous person on the internet (probably male, but otherwise no identifying information that i could tell) is not sexist or racist in my opinion.

you obviously disagree. however, rather than handing out warnings because you disagree, you should argue the point. and, if you think that i made an inapropriate comment in chit chat, then you should warn me there, so i know exactly what you are warning me about. as it is, it looks like you are warning me for having a disagreement with you!

khad

13th February 2010, 02:29

you obviously disagree. however, rather than handing out warnings because you disagree, you should argue the point. and, if you think that i made an inapropriate comment in chit chat, then you should warn me there, so i know exactly what you are warning me about. as it is, it looks like you are warning me for having a disagreement with you!
Your rationalization of your racist and sexist joke constitutes OI behavior. Keep pushing this, and you'll be racking up infractions.

Le Libérer

13th February 2010, 02:47

whore

13th February 2010, 03:24

Your rationalization of your racist and sexist joke constitutes OI behavior. Keep pushing this, and you'll be racking up infractions.

I agree with Khad here. Please refrain from sexist comments, jokes etc.
i don't get it. am i getting a warning because i made a "racist and sexist joke", or am i getting a warning for saying it isn't a racist and sexist joke?

i thought this was a discussion forum. i made an argument, and you disagree. but, instead of explaining why you think my argument is wrong, you are giving me a warning?

i have already stated that i won't be making that joke again if the consensus of the admin/mod team is that it is not acceptable. however, unless someone provides a bit better explanation of why my arguments are incorrect, i'll just have to assume that it is a knee jerk reaction.

so, khad, is it really oi behavior to disagree that a joke is sexist?

please explain why you think my argument is wrong. if convince me, i'll be sure to let you know. otherwise, i'll attempt to explain why. after all, i thought i was having a discussion.

khad

13th February 2010, 04:16

i don't get it. am i getting a warning because i made a "racist and sexist joke", or am i getting a warning for saying it isn't a racist and sexist joke?
You made a racist and sexist joke, and then you denied its discriminatory effect.

i thought this was a discussion forum. i made an argument, and you disagree. but, instead of explaining why you think my argument is wrong, you are giving me a warning? If you made a thread about how nigger, spic, or chink (when applied to non-black/latino/asian people) aren't racist terms, there wouldn't need to be any discussion over it. Stop hiding behind your libertarian equivalency garbage, as if all sides need to be represented. That's why we have OI.

And FYI, a few months ago, a vote passed here that classified "****" as a sexist term of abuse.

so, khad, is it really oi behavior to disagree that a joke is sexist? Of course it is, especially when the joke in question is a hallmark of racism and sexism.

i have already stated that i won't be making that joke again if the consensus of the admin/mod team is that it is not acceptable. however, unless someone provides a bit better explanation of why my arguments are incorrect, i'll just have to assume that it is a knee jerk reaction. You've already been warned by a mod and just had a senior Administrator tell you to knock it off, and there's a thread on your comments in the moderator forum. I don't need to justify myself or the mod/admin team to you. At this point, on top of OI behavior, you're just trolling.

*Viva La Revolucion*

13th February 2010, 04:17

I think a lot of comedians think it's fine to make sexist jokes now; the word ''ironic'' is thrown about a lot and it's used to draw the line between people like Jim Davidson and people like Jimmy Carr. Two people can say exactly the same things, but it's OK as long as we know one of them is saying those things ironically. :rolleyes: To be honest, most of the time sexist jokes aren't even that funny and are a lazy way to get a laugh.

I don't need to convince anyone here that sexism in society is still extremely prevalent and sexist jokes, although they seem harmless, are part of that. People constantly absorb attitudes and feelings from the world around them and newspapers, music, films, comedy, other media all contribute to what that attitude is going to be. As a female I don't like it when comedians make sexist jokes, but all someone has to say is ''you have no sense of humour. It's just a joke.'' and your argument is dismissed.

Calmwinds

13th February 2010, 04:53

A lot of humor is insulting, and its fun that way. These people who wish for no off-color jokes want a bland society.

Look, who gives a fuck, if they truly didn't intend harm then alright, whatever. They often mean it in no offense[1]. Sure it is a little insulting, but a lot of jokes are. I found out after I started using them that commonly perceived gay insulting phrases had poor origin. This sort of ultra paranoia and phobia about that has to stop. It is important whether it was done in good taste, often in good taste it is intended to not put anyone in the minority and make everyone laugh, in poor taste it is largely insulting.

They don't mean it with any sexist or racist intention, and if they do, well fuck them, and either get them to understand their bigotry and change their ways, or just remove yourself from close proximity.

There is a large difference between those that use terms with racial, or sexist intention than there is that those who use it for a general insult.

It's funny most people who think that ALL uses of it are homophobic or sexist seem so utterly convinced that they aren't even willing to reason or understand when someone tells them they feel no hatred at all towards any specific minority. This sort of crybaby political correctness is stupid, and laughable.

[1]- Offense being extreme insult.

khad

13th February 2010, 05:30

So racism and sexism are the spice of life, eh?

This is a Verbal Warning.

Le Libérer

13th February 2010, 05:32

i don't get it. am i getting a warning because i made a "racist and sexist joke", or am i getting a warning for saying it isn't a racist and sexist joke?

You received a warning for making a racist and sexist joke. Please by all mean, question and debate racism and sexism. Many times to do so lends explanations as to why certain terms are considered racist or sexist from a leftist view point.

If you ask a nonleftist if certain words or phrases are considered racist or sexist, you may get a completely different explanation as to why or why it isnt. Here on revleft we hold leftist view points which will differ from non-leftist views.

Plus, there are words or phrases I personally dont consider sexist but refrain from using here because there are others that do, like the word ****. And for that reason I refrain out of respect for others views.

Agnapostate

13th February 2010, 05:46

If you made a thread about how nigger, spic, or chink (when applied to non-black/latino/asian people) aren't racist terms, there wouldn't need to be any discussion over it.

Kind of off-topic, but inasmuch as Latinos (and Asians, for that matter) aren't a race, I'd have to agree that the word "spic" isn't a racist term. It's derived from the native Spanish speaker's pronunciation of the English term "speak" and is essentially a "linguistic" term rather than a racial one. Not that I'm prone to the flippant usage of epithets, but I use it as an anti-Spanish slur whenever I show up to post on Stormfront. People seem to have a tendency to see "Hispanic" and "Latino" culture as something "nonwhite" despite its European origins.

Tablo

13th February 2010, 05:50

In the past I used to find racist and sexist jokes entertaining because I was stupid enough to believe these weren't real issues anymore, I was horribly wrong.

I think the reason why some people think this is humorous is because they are ignorant to the plights of ethnic minorities and women. Another reason is obviously due to the fact that a number of these comedians are disgusting racists. We need to make sure the issues of racism and sexism do not lose the sight of the public. Only in that way can we combat such disgusting "humor".

khad

13th February 2010, 05:56

Kind of off-topic, but inasmuch as Latinos (and Asians, for that matter) aren't a race, I'd have to agree that the word "spic" isn't a racist term. It's derived from the native Spanish speaker's pronunciation of the English term "speak" and is essentially a "linguistic" term rather than a racial one. Not that I'm prone to the flippant usage of epithets, but I use it as an anti-Spanish slur whenever I show up to post on Stormfront. People seem to have a tendency to see "Hispanic" and "Latino" culture as something "nonwhite" despite its European origins.
On stormfront, they find it insulting because it links them to a perceived nonwhite culture. Think about this.

And regardless of your idiosyncratic interpretation of spic as a linguistic slur, in the dominant cultural discourse it has become racialized, just as "muslim" has become racialized for particular groups of non-white people. There is a congruency between "spic" and "wetback," just as there is congruency between "muslim" and "raghead."

"Race" is whatever racists want it to be. It's not hard to grasp this basic concept.

Agnapostate

13th February 2010, 06:11

On stormfront, they find it insulting because it links them to a perceived nonwhite culture. Think about this.

And regardless of your idiosyncratic interpretation of spic as a linguistic slur, in the dominant cultural discourse it has become racialized, just as "muslim" has become racialized for particular groups of non-white people. There is a congruency between "spic" and "wetback," just as there is congruency between "muslim" and "raghead."

Wetbacks are water-crossing immigrants from the south, nothing more. I agree that the term will be applied to people perceived as "Hispanic" (meaning people that look Indian, since Hispanic identity is associated with nothing "nonwhite"), but it's not accurate. I also find it amusing to go to Stormfront and point out that along with being spics, Spaniards are "wetbacks" inasmuch as they migrated across the body of water known as the Atlantic Ocean.

I might be accused of being a Hispanaphobe; I personally find many aspects of what's termed "Hispanic" culture ethically objectionable. But far from constituting an attack on a racial underclass, I recognize the roots of that culture in European Iberia. And as an Indian in an area once controlled by Spain and later by Mexico, I've admittedly grown resentful of being identified with those entities due to being perceived as "Hispanic," as dark-skinned people with Spanish names (due to the colonization) tend to be.

khad

13th February 2010, 06:19

Wetbacks are water-crossing immigrants from the south, nothing more. I agree that the term will be applied to people perceived as "Hispanic" (meaning people that look Indian, since Hispanic identity is associated with nothing "nonwhite"), but it's not accurate. I also find it amusing to go to Stormfront and point out that along with being spics, Spaniards are "wetbacks" inasmuch as they migrated across the body of water known as the Atlantic Ocean.
It doesn't matter what you think about the "accuracy" of these racist terms. That's your idiosyncratic interpretation. Racists create this discourse, and they do use spic and wetback interchangeably.

I repeat. Those stormfronters are only annoyed at your word games because you're linking them to perceived non-whiteness. So before you get all proud of yourself, you should realize that such actions implicitly validate the oppositional binary that constitutes their racist worldview.

Agnapostate

13th February 2010, 06:34

It doesn't matter what you think about the "accuracy" of these racist terms. That's your idiosyncratic interpretation. Racists create this discourse, and they do use spic and wetback interchangeably.

How much time have you actually spent among white racists, analyzing their behavior patterns? They use the term "spic" in application to all people perceived as "Hispanic," I've noticed; many are simply too stupid to realize that Hispanic culture originates in Europe. It's a problem on the forum, with more experienced members chastising the junior fascists who complain of "Mexicans" and "Hispanics," as they are aware that they are not racial categorizations. "Wetback" is used for immigrants; it refers to those that swam across the Rio Grande, and the Eisenhower-era "Operation Wetback" was directed at immigrants. It corresponds with the "mojado period" as the Spanish word "mojado" is the equivalent of "wetback"; various members of my family immigrated to the U.S. Southwest from northern Mexico during the 1940's and 1950's.

My usage of the term "spic" to refer to Spaniards is actually quite consistent with its intended meaning. The usage of "wetback" isn't, but does illustrate an ironic point that white racists tend to ignore.

I repeat. Those stormfronters are only annoyed at your word games because you're linking them to perceived non-whiteness. So before you get all proud of yourself, you should realize that such actions implicitly validate the oppositional binary that constitutes their racist worldview.

So is this (http://www.mexica-movement.org/) also an example of such implicit validation?

We say, "Europeans are the illegals---since 1492!"

It's illustration of an ironic point by turning the tables on idiots and illustrating to them the consequences of the consistent application of their ideology.

khad

13th February 2010, 06:43

My usage of the term "spic" to refer to Spaniards is actually quite consistent with its intended meaning. The usage of "wetback" isn't, but does illustrate an ironic point that white racists tend to ignore.
And white racists dictate what racist language is, not you, no matter how much you wish it to be the case.

So is this (http://www.mexica-movement.org/) also an example of such implicit validation?

We say, "Europeans are the illegals---since 1492!"

It's illustration of an ironic point by turning the tables on idiots and illustrating to them the consequences of the consistent application of their ideology.Of course it does. You can even turn to Edward Said where he discusses the shortcomings of anti-colonial nativism as the dialectical negation of the imperialist position.

FYI, those "Homeland Security since 1492" T-Shirts which depict images of Geronimo and other famous Indian resistance fighters are best-sellers with the Department of Homeland Security.

ZeroNowhere

13th February 2010, 06:45

The discussion involving Whore getting an infraction should probably take place elsewhere from now on, if it hasn't already, though it had no good reason to appear in this thread in the first place. At least, I'm assuming that infractions and restriction threats are not being proposed as a solution to the apparent worrying trend of sexist jokes in society.

khad

13th February 2010, 06:49

Agnapostate

13th February 2010, 06:51

And white racists dictate what racist language is, not you, no matter how much you wish it to be the case.

Firstly, the application of "racist language" is different than what you claimed it to be, and secondly, I'm merely demonstrating to them the ironic and consistent application of their own definitions.

Of course it does. You can even turn to Edward Said where he discusses the shortcomings of anti-colonial nativism as the dialectical negation of the imperialist position.

But the true ethically legitimate anti-colonialist position isn't based on consistent application of their own standards, since they're invalid to begin with. But illustrating the consequences of such consistent application of the racist ideology exposes its utterly shallow nature and shakes the faith of its adherents. Before my most recent incarnation was banned from Stormfront, I had a comment posted on my visitor page that said, "Well, we always say, Europe for Europeans, Africa for Africans, Asia for Asians, so I agree, it's only fair that America should belong to Native Americans."

FYI, those "Homeland Security since 1492" T-Shirts which depict images of Geronimo and other famous Indian resistance fighters are best-sellers with the Department of Homeland Security.

And not with white supremacists, are they? The DHS has no bone to pick with the expression of Apache militancy and probably do agree with the irony focused on; white racists certainly do object and are angered by the irony.

ZeroNowhere

13th February 2010, 06:51

Apologies, a verbal warning.

Derrida

13th February 2010, 06:57

khad

13th February 2010, 06:58

But the true ethically legitimate anti-colonialist position isn't based on consistent application of their own standards, since they're invalid to begin with. But illustrating the consequences of such consistent application of the racist ideology exposes its utterly shallow nature and shakes the faith of its adherents. Before my most recent incarnation was banned from Stormfront, I had a comment posted on my visitor page that said, "Well, we always say, Europe for Europeans, Africa for Africans, Asia for Asians, so I agree, it's only fair that America should belong to Native Americans."
That's hardly what I call a negation of the negation, which would entail the realization of the absurdity of these standards.

No, you just proved my point that your entire debate on stormfront is structured on their terms. They continue to rationalize their faith in geographic ethnonationalism.

And not with white supremacists, are they? The DHS has no bone to pick with the expression of Apache militancy and probably do agree with the irony focused on; white racists certainly do object and are angered by the irony.So? What does angering them achieve? How does this in any way contradict my point that they are offended because it associates them with non-whiteness?

Agnapostate

13th February 2010, 07:03

That's hardly what I call a negation of the negation, which would entail the realization of the absurdity of these standards.

No, you just proved my point that your entire debate on stormfront is structured on their terms.

That was the point. If I were to offer a legitimate critique of white nationalism, I would point out the fact that there is no evidence of a genetic basis for racial "superiority," and argue that any "advantages" of Europeans were probably gained through geographical factors a la Guns, Germs, and Steel. What I sought to do, however, was demonstrate to that forum that their own standards were illegitimate and inconsistent, which is a certain means of addressing them when they will not heed other logically sound argument.

So? What does angering them achieve?

Lulz.

How does this in any way contradict my point that they are offended because it associates them with non-whiteness?

They are offended because of the irony associated with the consistent application of their own adopted standards. They are angered because they fail the very moral guidelines that they presume to establish for members of other races.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HU7bsefBAmQ&feature=player_embedded#at=256

Where is Lou's response to the numerous queries regarding his ancestors' immigration from Europe and demands to know why they did not comply with the desires of the indigenous population regarding their settlement? It is nonexistent.

khad

13th February 2010, 07:17

That was the point. If I were to offer a legitimate critique of white nationalism, I would point out the fact that there is no evidence of a genetic basis for racial "superiority," and argue that any "advantages" of Europeans were probably gained through geographical factors a la Guns, Germs, and Steel. What I sought to do, however, was demonstrate to that forum that their own standards were illegitimate and inconsistent, which is a certain means of addressing them when they will not heed other logically sound argument.
And they still reach a conclusion consistent with their original ideology. So what does that achieve?

And, btw, Jared Diamond is a racist who has been exposed for falsifying his anthropological analysis. His analysis only naturalizes empire as inevitable geographic determinism. Marxists have called him a vulgar materialist.

They are offended because of the irony associated with the consistent application of their own adopted standards. They are angered because they fail the very moral guidelines that they presume to establish for members of other races.LOL. They are offended because someone dared to compare them to non-white people, not because of some moral turmoil that you imagine them to have.

I think this example will illustrate the point better:

call an unemployed white guy a "nigger" for not having a job.

They don't go "Oh man, I'm as bad as that black man because I can't find a job! Man, this sucks!"

No, the reaction is "How dare you compare me to a dirty black man!"

Agnapostate

13th February 2010, 07:29

And they still reach a conclusion consistent with their original ideology. So what does that achieve?

The erosion of white supremacist policy approaches, for one thing. Support of white emigration from America and into Europe is certainly at odds with the aims of those who would support establishing racist white policies in American countries.

And, btw, Jared Diamond is a racist who has been exposed for falsifying his anthropological analysis.

I'm quite certain that this discussion has been had on here before. Was anyone's mind changed then? In my view, Jared Diamond's rejection of even consideration of the possibility of racial genetic superiority (which I disbelieve in, but the rejection of such doctrines without argument is still logically fallacious and actually a concession to racists) makes it quite apparent that he is not a "racist," and that he's quite sensitive to such issues, in fact.

His analysis only naturalizes empire as inevitable geographic determinism.

Perhaps, but it would be an obvious naturalistic fallacy as well as an is-ought fallacy to infer that imperialism and the expansion of empire is ethical as a result. That it's likely a "naturally" occurring phenomenon is quite irrelevant to that.

Marxists have called him a vulgar materialist.

Charming. How does that constitute an actual argument?

LOL. They are offended because someone dared to compare them to non-white people, not because of some moral turmoil that you imagine them to have.

Have you been to Stormfront? They are offended and appalled because the consistent application of their ideology to them and the destruction of their double standard exposes their hypocrisy and illustrates a relevant irony.

Calmwinds

13th February 2010, 09:32

So racism and sexism are the spice of life, eh?

This is a Verbal Warning.

Look, I never said that, that is clearly a straw man logical fallacy. What are you, dillusional in your associations of sexism and racism? You are making connections that are not there. I do not agree at all that racism and sexism is the spice of life. Please, your imagination is getting the best of you.

I am sincere in what I say, most do not intend it with racist or sexist positions, and I would never use such terminology with racist or sexist intent, but I am utterly unconvinced that such phrases although of sketchy origins(Certainly we can all agree) have evolved out of that context.

Never did I say racism or sexism is the spice of life, if we consider racism or sexism to be considered moderate-hard insults. There are extremely little insults that cannot be associated with some sort of sketchy past association, but often humor contains insults, and you simply are not going to be able to police all language, nor do I agree that it is wrong to speak light insults with intent of humor.

I truly am arguing sincerely that nobody intends them to have such impact to hurt someone, and since I have made no insult of racist or sexist origin I consider my verbal warning unjustified, either on a misreading of my post, or seeing similar people in the fast also defend my position lying and being sexist/racist and associating me with those types.

Stand Your Ground

14th February 2010, 22:22

When people make jokes like that and expect me to laugh I just give them a blank face to look in while they think about how horrible what they just said was. Like Jimmie Higgins said, it's going to take much more advancement in the struggle for sex equality and women's rights for jokes like that to be curbed in one way or another. Beyond that you can just try to make as many people aware of what they're doing by saying [what they say] as possible. But if you're overly aggressive about it then they'll probably find themselves believing they're a brave officer in the army fighting against political correctness or some shit.

Really, it's a matter of knowing when to call someone out and knowing who it's alright to do it to, if you're gonna try to make a difference.

"She's such a dumb c*nt she doesn't know how to make a sandwich. After all she should know her purpose in life." "What the fuck is wrong with you, that's sick!" "Oh but I'm just joking, it's okay."

See the problem now?
I didn't say that you couldn't cross the line. It depends on the people involved in the situation and how they take it. Some people get offended, some don't.