Bury Lenin

[sunfarstar]

Bury Lenin was a very good opportunity. For the Russian Communist Party, will be a large number of the international media coverage. Meanwhile, the international communist movement also has a very good role. Recommend choosing the Lenin commemorative day was held in his hometown.

[Hoggy_RS]

Lenin should be buried, as was his wish before he died. Keeping him on display is a freak show and is the opposite of what he wanted.

Also the Russian communist party is an absolute joke.

[Axle]

Lenin should be buried, as was his wish before he died. Keeping him on display is a freak show and is the opposite of what he wanted.

Also the Russian communist party is an absolute joke.

Isn't the Russian Communist party basically soaked in nationalism right now?

[Marxist]

There is a hell alot of communist parties in the Russia it seeems - even a maoist one :cool:
The thing that annoys me is that there is a party called All-Union Communist Party of Bolsheviks and there is All-Union Commmunist Party (bolsheviks) both active :blink:

[NecroCommie]

Also the Russian communist party is an absolute joke.
Yep, that's the legacy of Stalin there. The CPRF is indeed quite nationalist, and actually closer to the social democrat parties of europe.

As to the burial of Lenin, please do it. If the act gets enough media attention we might get popularity as somethig else than a weird cultish thingy.

[Uppercut]

There is a hell alot of communist parties in the Russia it seeems - even a maoist one :cool:
The thing that annoys me is that there is a party called All-Union Communist Party of Bolsheviks and there is All-Union Commmunist Party (bolsheviks) both active :blink:

Yeah, it's annoying they can't just form a joint communist party. It seems like factionalism has taken over the minds of russian communists. Of course, as long as both parties advocate soviet (council) democracy, I won't be too picky.

[chegitz guevara]

Lenin's dead. His wishes on the matter are no longer relevant. Anyone who knew him is no longer with us. May as well keep the body around, since it means a lot to the living.

[dar8888]

Yeah, it's annoying they can't just form a joint communist party.

Well, neither can we Americans.

Lenin should be buried. Being displayed was not his wish, and he will not fade from memory just because his body is decently interred. His work will live on forever.

[Homo Songun]

I'm with chegitz on this one. Personally, I find the cult of personality repulsive. But I have the sense to see the, uh, material force inherent in the symbolism of his mausoleum remaining, even after the fall of communism. Likewise with the contrapositive.

Moreover, despite the fact that he supposedly did not personally want a fanfare after his death, in his life he was always in favor of whatever course of action that would propel the communist cause forward. Therefore I can see him agreeing to having his mummified remains being used as a thorn in the side of the capitalists.

[Comrade B]

Isn't one of the parties that takes the name Bolshevik fascist?

[robbo203]

Yes bury him and along with him the state capitalist ideology he represents

[Comrade B]

Since when did Lenin represent state capitalism?

[robbo203]

Since when did Lenin represent state capitalism?

"While the revolution in Germany is still slow in coming forth, our task is to study the state capitalism of the Germans, to spare no effort in copying it and not shrink from adopting dictatorial methods to hasten the copying of it (Lenin, Collected Works, 4th English Edition, Progress Publishers, Moscow, 1972 Volume 27, page 340.)

"state capitalism would be a step forward as compared with the present state of affairs in our Soviet Republic. If in approximately six months time state capitalism became established in our Republic, this would be a great success and a sure guarantee that within a year socialism will have gained a permanently firm hold and will become invincible in our country". (Left Wing Childishness and the Petty Bourgeois Mentality)

"socialism is merely the next step forward from state-capitalist monopoly. Or, in other words, socialism is merely state-capitalist monopoly which is made to serve the interests of the whole people and has to that extent ceased to be capitalist monopoly". (The Impending Catastrophe and How to Combat It)


"Without big banks socialism would be impossible. The big banks are the "state apparatus" which we need to bring about socialism, and which we take ready-made from capitalism;..A single State Bank, the biggest of the big, with branches in every rural district, in every factory, will constitute as much as nine-tenths of the socialist apparatus" (Can the Bolsheviks Retain State Power? October 1, 1917
Collected Works, Progress Publishers, Moscow, Volume 26, 1972, pp. 87-136).


And this not only because the horrors of the war give rise to proletarian revolt—no revolt can bring about socialism unless the economic conditions for socialism are ripe—but because state-monopoly capitalism is a complete material preparation for socialism, the threshold of socialism, a rung on the ladder of history between which and the rung called socialism there are no intermediate rungs. (The Impending Catastrophe and How to Combat It http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1917/ichtci/11.htm)


And so on and so forth....

There are loads more quotes if you want them to substantiate the claim that Lenin considered state capitalism to be progressive and that he criticised those on the Left who attacked his obsession with state capitalism by pointing out that the enemy is not state capitalism but the petty bourgeoisie

Lenin was an ideologist of state capitalism so much so that he even redefined socialism to mean a state capitalist monopoly made to serve the whole people (see above) Which is of course a load of complete bollocks

[ls]

"While the revolution in Germany is still slow in coming forth, our task is to study the state capitalism of the Germans, to spare no effort in copying it and not shrink from adopting dictatorial methods to hasten the copying of it (Lenin, Collected Works, 4th English Edition, Progress Publishers, Moscow, 1972 Volume 27, page 340.)

"state capitalism would be a step forward as compared with the present state of affairs in our Soviet Republic. If in approximately six months time state capitalism became established in our Republic, this would be a great success and a sure guarantee that within a year socialism will have gained a permanently firm hold and will become invincible in our country". (Left Wing Childishness and the Petty Bourgeois Mentality)

"socialism is merely the next step forward from state-capitalist monopoly. Or, in other words, socialism is merely state-capitalist monopoly which is made to serve the interests of the whole people and has to that extent ceased to be capitalist monopoly". (The Impending Catastrophe and How to Combat It)


"Without big banks socialism would be impossible. The big banks are the "state apparatus" which we need to bring about socialism, and which we take ready-made from capitalism;..A single State Bank, the biggest of the big, with branches in every rural district, in every factory, will constitute as much as nine-tenths of the socialist apparatus" (Can the Bolsheviks Retain State Power? October 1, 1917
Collected Works, Progress Publishers, Moscow, Volume 26, 1972, pp. 87-136).


And this not only because the horrors of the war give rise to proletarian revolt—no revolt can bring about socialism unless the economic conditions for socialism are ripe—but because state-monopoly capitalism is a complete material preparation for socialism, the threshold of socialism, a rung on the ladder of history between which and the rung called socialism there are no intermediate rungs. (The Impending Catastrophe and How to Combat It http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1917/ichtci/11.htm)


And so on and so forth....

There are loads more quotes if you want them to substantiate the claim that Lenin considered state capitalism to be progressive and that he criticised those on the Left who attacked his obsession with state capitalism by pointing out that the enemy is not state capitalism but the petty bourgeoisie

Lenin was an ideologist of state capitalism so much so that he even redefined socialism to mean a state capitalist monopoly made to serve the whole people (see above) Which is of course a load of complete bollocks

Throughout his whole life? At every single period during it?

I guess we should just forget the october revolution and say it was in fact an anti-communist state-capitalist revolution right. :rolleyes:

[robbo203]

Throughout his whole life? At every single period during it?

I guess we should just forget the october revolution and say it was in fact an anti-communist state-capitalist revolution right. :rolleyes:

Can you think of a period when he was not advocating state capitalism as the way forward?

[Saorsa]

The character of a revolution cannot be judged by a collection of quotes from the writings of one of it's leaders.

[robbo203]

The character of a revolution cannot be judged by a collection of quotes from the writings of one of it's leaders.

Quite true. It can be judged by its outcome and in this case the outcome was a system of state-adminstered capitalism. State capitalism

[Hoggy_RS]

Isn't the Russian Communist party basically soaked in nationalism right now?

Very much so. Only a tiny minority of the party seems to follow anything close to socialism.

On that matter, is there any worthwhile left wing parties in Russia?

[chegitz guevara]

Quite true. It can be judged by its outcome and in this case the outcome was a system of state-adminstered capitalism. State capitalism

A funny sort of capitalism, with no private property, no profit, no markets, no production for exchange. A capitalism with absolutely none of the characteristics of capitalism.

Along with such a capitalism, we should consider such things as dry water, black white, invisible brightness, etc.

[Red Commissar]

Isn't one of the parties that takes the name Bolshevik fascist?

Yes, there's a so-called "National Bolshevik Party" in Russia. They're skinheads. Google them up and you can see some funny stuff.

As for the matter of Lenin, it will ultimately come down to Russia. And knowing that the Medvedev-Putin administration is heavily focused on nationalism they probably won't be burying Lenin's body anytime soon...

[chegitz guevara]

Those who advocate the burial of Lenin need to give a reason better than just, "It's what he wanted." Lenin is dead. He's been dead for 76 years. His wishes on the matter died with him. Krupskaya's dead. They had no children. No one directly emotionally connected to the man exists today to have a claim that he be buried. Only the wishes of the living matter.

Frankly, the first modern mummy ought to stay on display. We should no more bury Lenin than we should re-bury Tutankamon or Ramses or Hapshetsut or any of the other mummies we've dug up. Being on display would certainly have been against their wishes, as they'd have believed it would destroy their afterlife. Lenin was an atheist. He's dead. He is incapable of caring what we do with the body.

[dar8888]

Those who advocate the burial of Lenin need to give a reason better than just, "It's what he wanted." Lenin is dead. He's been dead for 76 years. His wishes on the matter died with him. Krupskaya's dead. They had no children. No one directly emotionally connected to the man exists today to have a claim that he be buried. Only the wishes of the living matter.

Frankly, the first modern mummy ought to stay on display. We should no more bury Lenin than we should re-bury Tutankamon or Ramses or Hapshetsut or any of the other mummies we've dug up. Being on display would certainly have been against their wishes, as they'd have believed it would destroy their afterlife. Lenin was an atheist. He's dead. He is incapable of caring what we do with the body.

How about this: We should bury Lenin, and re-bury Tutankhamun. Why? Simply because it is the decent thing to do. I would not want to be on display for a bunch of slack-jawed gawkers to stare at. I'll be dead, right? So what, I still wouldn't want to be a museum piece.

The value in Lenin is in his writings - not his corpse. Those who feel they need to be able to look at his body are not true Marxists - and those who want to look simply out of morbid curiosity have no claim on Lenin or his memory. Their wishes can be discounted.

Why do you suppose Lenin was not disposed of after the fall of the Soviet Union? Because capitalists love tourist traps. It's an insidious form of exploitation that dishonours Lenin - and makes dupes out of those who go to gawk.

[Axle]

Why do you suppose Lenin was not disposed of after the fall of the Soviet Union? Because capitalists love tourist traps. It's an insidious form of exploitation that dishonours Lenin - and makes dupes out of those who go to gawk.

To view Lenin's body is completely free of charge.

The real reason he isn't buried is only to promote Russian nationalism. He's kept on display to be touted about as some great Russian hero, convieniently ignoring his internationalism.

[dar8888]

To view Lenin's body is completely free of charge.

The real reason he isn't buried is only to promote Russian nationalism. He's kept on display to be touted about as some great Russian hero, convieniently ignoring his internationalism.

I mentioned nothing about charging to view the body. Many tourist traps are totally free. Of course, nationalism does play a part.

[A Revolutionary Tool]

Those who advocate the burial of Lenin need to give a reason better than just, "It's what he wanted." Lenin is dead. He's been dead for 76 years. His wishes on the matter died with him. Krupskaya's dead. They had no children. No one directly emotionally connected to the man exists today to have a claim that he be buried. Only the wishes of the living matter.

Frankly, the first modern mummy ought to stay on display. We should no more bury Lenin than we should re-bury Tutankamon or Ramses or Hapshetsut or any of the other mummies we've dug up. Being on display would certainly have been against their wishes, as they'd have believed it would destroy their afterlife. Lenin was an atheist. He's dead. He is incapable of caring what we do with the body.

How about this reasoning then:
Besides the fact that it breeds Russian nationalism and only helps further a cult of personality, a mausoleum built specially for you or even a grave site is just a waste of land that could be cultivated or where something productive like a factory could be built. It's just a waste of space and I believe everybody should be cremated once they die and get all the organs ripped out of them. Unless of course you're using the body for fertilizer...

[Axle]

I mentioned nothing about charging to view the body. Many tourist traps are totally free. Of course, nationalism does play a part.

Tourist traps, by definition, are for profit...usually by selling trinkets and other bullshit, but Lenin's Tomb is operated by the Russian government, not by private enterprise.

Yeah, photos are sold there, but the tomb is only open a few hours a day, and the body has to be worked on constantly...the general cost of upkeep is much, much more than whatever revenue is generated by the sale of official pictures.

Like I said, the ONLY reason Lenin is still on display is to promote Russian nationalism. No government would keep something like that open without some national pride agenda.

[Sendo]

a mausoleum built specially for you or even a grave site is just a waste of land that could be cultivated or where something productive like a factory could be built. It's just a waste of space and I believe everybody should be cremated once they die and get all the organs ripped out of them. Unless of course you're using the body for fertilizer...

EXACTLY. There are 6 billion people alive today. It's not feasible to create, let alone afford, enough preservative fluids, coffins, and grave spaces for all. To demand any more is elitist. Though I do defend the museum aspects of the project. Just forget the corpse.

[Weezer]

Again, don't bury him. Just rebuilt his tomb.

http://englishrussia.com/images/project_mausoleum/1.jpg

[Bright Banana Beard]

Again, don't bury him. Just rebuilt his tomb.

http://englishrussia.com/images/project_mausoleum/1.jpg

This plan will happen, watch.

[Vanguard1917]

This plan will happen, watch.

I can't wait.

And, yes, Lenin should be buried. Not only because the masoleum represents something which he would have opposed.* It represents something we should oppose, too.


* "All our lives we fought against exalting the individual, against the elevation of the single person, and long ago we were over and done with the business of a hero, and here it comes up again: the glorification of one personality. This is not good at all. I am just like everybody else." (Lenin)