Introduction

[barbaro]

Hi folks,

I have been a lurker for a while now. And I have not been keen to participate because I have not taken a stand in any form. Neither to the left or to the right. I was born in Cuba and am not at all pleased with the inner workings of the system, in short words, it is hypocritical to the core.

I have to add that I am completely against raw capitalism as I do not see any way for it to "work itself out" as many proponents claim it would.

I do not consider myself to be against or for any type of government, but have found that the comments and posts in this site are generally more interesting and real than I have read at other sites. I like to think that at some stage in the history of the world, there will be found a system which recognizes that people are different and therefore need a wider set of rules by which to live by, different opportunities, different goals. Having said that, it is also imperative for us, and I say us as I believe governments should be all about us, but I believe it should be imperative for us to ensure the health and safety of our fellow human beings who for one reason or another, cannot take care of themselves.

Raw capitalism as practiced in Chile and Argentina in the 70's is cruel and brutal. Sadly, I cannot say differently about Communism.

Today, I feel as though it should be the goal of human kind to find a way to accomplish both sides of the specter in one form of government.

I realize this may not fit into your site plan. I will be watching this post and hope that some very interesting conversations and discussions come from it.

Barbaro

[Q]

Today, I feel as though it should be the goal of human kind to find a way to accomplish both sides of the specter in one form of government.
So you believe in some form of regulated capitalism, a welfare state?


I realize this may not fit into your site plan. I will be watching this post and hope that some very interesting conversations and discussions come from it.
The purpose of this forum is discussion and debate in an effort to raise our level of understanding :)

Welcome.

[Chambered Word]

Welcome to RevLeft, I'm sure we'll have some interesting discussions about Cuba with you. :)

Many of us are also critical of Cuba as well.

[革命者]

Welcome, barbaro.

What makes you say that Cuba has a system hypocritical to the core? Do you still live in Cuba?

Best,

Scotty

[barbaro]

Welcome, barbaro.

What makes you say that Cuba has a system hypocritical to the core? Do you still live in Cuba?

Best,

Scotty


Hi Scotty,

Thanks for the welcome.

No, happily I no longer live in Cuba. Cuba's system is hypocritical because in order to "look" successful, which we aren't, we must lie about it. This permeates Cuban society. We lie about our employment rate, we lie about our death rates, we lie about our health care, we lie about our advances, we lie about our finances, we lie about our education, we lie about everything.

The reality is very different as seen by a Cuban National, than that seen by a foreign passport wielder.

I still own a house in Cuba, but not legally. Foreigners cannot openly own houses and Cubans cannot legally sell their homes. Period. I have family in Cuba. And have not visited Cuba in over a year. But am very in touch with Cuba on a daily basis.

I am not in any way, shape or form in love, or even in like with the US, or most of it's policies and empire building. I have fallen in love with freedom and am in a constant mind evolution and scheming to personally keep as much of it as I can.

barbaro

[barbaro]

Welcome to RevLeft, I'm sure we'll have some interesting discussions about Cuba with you. :)

Many of us are also critical of Cuba as well.


I look forward to discussions. If and only if they are constructive and challenging. I have very different opinions about Cuba and no emotional ties to any of it except when I feel my freedom threatened. You see, after life in Cuba, I value my freedom more than life itself.

I would like to, in advance, state that discussions about actual conditions in Cuba are usually pointless. I can provide information about laws and how things are handled, as well as life in general. Specifically, for example, on procedural questions inside the endlessly complicated bureaucracy that now exists in Cuba. The unbridled corruption which exists "because" of the system and not in spite of it.

There is nothing good about the system in Cuba. But I still see good in a system where the weak are protected. Sadly, this does not exist in Cuba. I'm sorry to burst bubbles, but for those who admire Cuba, may I suggest a change of venue?

[Chambered Word]

I look forward to discussions. If and only if they are constructive and challenging. I have very different opinions about Cuba and no emotional ties to any of it except when I feel my freedom threatened. You see, after life in Cuba, I value my freedom more than life itself.

I would like to, in advance, state that discussions about actual conditions in Cuba are usually pointless. I can provide information about laws and how things are handled, as well as life in general. Specifically, for example, on procedural questions inside the endlessly complicated bureaucracy that now exists in Cuba. The unbridled corruption which exists "because" of the system and not in spite of it.

There is nothing good about the system in Cuba. But I still see good in a system where the weak are protected. Sadly, this does not exist in Cuba. I'm sorry to burst bubbles, but for those who admire Cuba, may I suggest a change of venue?

Sounds like you might not be popular with the resident Stalinists, but meh. I'd be glad to hear you out anyway. I'm interested in learning about Cuba and what it's really like because it's pretty hard to find information.

[革命者]

Hi Scotty,

Thanks for the welcome.

No, happily I no longer live in Cuba. Cuba's system is hypocritical because in order to "look" successful, which we aren't, we must lie about it. This permeates Cuban society. We lie about our employment rate, we lie about our death rates, we lie about our health care, we lie about our advances, we lie about our finances, we lie about our education, we lie about everything.

The reality is very different as seen by a Cuban National, than that seen by a foreign passport wielder.

I still own a house in Cuba, but not legally. Foreigners cannot openly own houses and Cubans cannot legally sell their homes. Period. I have family in Cuba. And have not visited Cuba in over a year. But am very in touch with Cuba on a daily basis.

I am not in any way, shape or form in love, or even in like with the US, or most of it's policies and empire building. I have fallen in love with freedom and am in a constant mind evolution and scheming to personally keep as much of it as I can.

barbaroWhat freedom have you fallen in love with? The freedom to 'own' two houses when others in your country lose theirs? That is indeed some nicety of the US.

[Nolan]

Welcome to our forum. :)

How easy would you say it is to get a simple operation in Cuba?

My guess is that it would be fairly easy since there is a Cuban-run hospital in Venezuela - where my family is from - where my aunt who couldn't afford it recently got cataracts removed for free.

I know many Cubans are highly cynical about their system, but it does have its good sides, at least according to Unicef and even the CIA. Many of the poor in Venezuela have come to look up to Cuba.

[barbaro]

What freedom have you fallen in love with? The freedom to 'own' two houses when others in your country lose theirs? That is indeed some nicety of the US.

I reread all my posts, and didn't see where I said I own two houses. I own one in Cuba because it has belonged to my family for generations. And I don't own one anywhere else. Have anything else to make up we can fight about?

[barbaro]

Welcome to our forum. :)

How easy would you say it is to get a simple operation in Cuba?

My guess is that it would be fairly easy since there is a Cuban-run hospital in Venezuela - where my family is from - where my aunt who couldn't afford it recently got cataracts removed for free.

I know many Cubans are highly cynical about their system, but it does have its good sides, at least according to Unicef and even the CIA. Many of the poor in Venezuela have come to look up to Cuba.

Depending on the operation, and depending on many factors, easy. There is nothing cynical about people dying because they cannot get medicine unless someone from "outside" sends it to them. Medicine that can be purchased for US dollars at the tourist pharmacy. Bicarbonated Soda, you know, the arm and hammer guy? It took me 4 days, two towns, and 1 dollar per teaspoon to get some. Cotton swabs? Forget it. I was approached by a tourist in Varadero who could not find powdered milk for her baby. A tourist!

Simply put, it is true that Venezuelans, Panamanians, Bolivians and others are benefiting greatly from Operacion Barrio Adentro. I only wish Cubans born in Cuba would get the same treatment. Unfortunately, the do not.

I am stating facts as I have seen and lived them. I am not being cynical. I am attempting to be civil. I have never been in favor of raw capitalism, but I have not been in favor of the Cuban system either. What is wrong with pointing out faults? BTW, the freedom to point out faults without being attacked is what is thoroughly lacking in Cuba. Isn't this part of what we are searching for? Or are we just looking to justify the leftist movement regardless of it's faults? We can find good and bad in every system, a true revolutionary should look to adopt the good and glean the bad.

If I murder someone after helping an old lady cross the street, am I a good samaritan, or a murderer? Of course there are good things in Cuba. But in my sight, the bad outweighs them. And none of these good things really go to the core of quality of life, nor can they be directly attributed to a 50 year dictatorship.

BTW, where do you think UNICEF and the CIA get their facts from? I am seriously not surprised they think Cuba is an awesome system. Nor do I blame you for thinking the same.

[Nolan]

Depending on the operation, and depending on many factors, easy. There is nothing cynical about people dying because they cannot get medicine unless someone from "outside" sends it to them. Medicine that can be purchased for US dollars at the tourist pharmacy. Bicarbonated Soda, you know, the arm and hammer guy? It took me 4 days, two towns, and 1 dollar per teaspoon to get some. Cotton swabs? Forget it. I was approached by a tourist in Varadero who could not find powdered milk for her baby. A tourist!

Simply put, it is true that Venezuelans, Panamanians, Bolivians and others are benefiting greatly from Operacion Barrio Adentro. I only wish Cubans born in Cuba would get the same treatment. Unfortunately, the do not.

I am stating facts as I have seen and lived them. I am not being cynical. I am attempting to be civil. I have never been in favor of raw capitalism, but I have not been in favor of the Cuban system either. What is wrong with pointing out faults? BTW, the freedom to point out faults without being attacked is what is thoroughly lacking in Cuba. Isn't this part of what we are searching for? Or are we just looking to justify the leftist movement regardless of it's faults? We can find good and bad in every system, a true revolutionary should look to adopt the good and glean the bad.

If I murder someone after helping an old lady cross the street, am I a good samaritan, or a murderer? Of course there are good things in Cuba. But in my sight, the bad outweighs them. And none of these good things really go to the core of quality of life, nor can they be directly attributed to a 50 year dictatorship.

BTW, where do you think UNICEF and the CIA get their facts from? I am seriously not surprised they think Cuba is an awesome system. Nor do I blame you for thinking the same.

I'm not saying Cuba is good, or that anyone should look up to the system there (at least not as is). The CIA does not think Cuba is awesome. :lol: And I doubt UNICEF does.

If you really look at Cuba's situation, there are three things that are keeping it poor and contribute to shortages of foods, medicines, and other things:

1: Lack of Allies. Many of the problems have appeared since the fall of the USSR.

2: Embargo, has a role in causing the shortages of the things you mentioned, if not directly, then by making the Cuban government pay more to obtain and ship them.

3: Corruption, due in part to the first two but present in all poor countries.

The police state present in Cuba is not due to ideology as much as necessity. The US government actually harbors exile terrorists (it did in the past and theres no reason to think it doesn't now) and has many agents within Cuba. If someone were arrested in the US for being suspected of supporting Al-Qaida, then nobody complains. But if they arrest someone in Cuba for being a foreign agent you hear it all over the internet as "repression of dissidents." So there is a double standard in the media for looking at the US and Cuba. Is Cuba off the hook? Of course not. But it has especially trying circumstances, and those studying its system should take this into account.

[FSL]

... Barbaro ...



So, on a scale of 1 to 10 how angry or sad are you -if you are either- that Cuba didn't crumble down to a sensitive capitalist state where people would finally be able to sell their homes in a market?

You recently migrated, maybe a few years ago? So things don't look so hopeful for you people getting the upper hand again any time soon?

I'm also trying to be civil even though you strike me off as rather unpleasant when it comes to what you're proposing as an ideal society. Could you answer a few things? Like age, profession you had in Cuba, what is your occupation now? Things like that.

[FSL]

Sounds like you might not be popular with the resident Stalinists, but meh. I'd be glad to hear you out anyway. I'm interested in learning about Cuba and what it's really like because it's pretty hard to find information.


He is not popular with the resident Stalinists since, you know, he's in favour of a humane capitalism with some protection for the "weakest".

He's certainly popular in the sense that he's someone who's in favour of humane capitalism and at the same time against Cuban socialism. I'm very happy he had to leave the island, it would sadden me if he was there dictating policies.

[red cat]

Hi folks,

I have been a lurker for a while now. And I have not been keen to participate because I have not taken a stand in any form. Neither to the left or to the right. I was born in Cuba and am not at all pleased with the inner workings of the system, in short words, it is hypocritical to the core.

I have to add that I am completely against raw capitalism as I do not see any way for it to "work itself out" as many proponents claim it would.

I do not consider myself to be against or for any type of government, but have found that the comments and posts in this site are generally more interesting and real than I have read at other sites. I like to think that at some stage in the history of the world, there will be found a system which recognizes that people are different and therefore need a wider set of rules by which to live by, different opportunities, different goals. Having said that, it is also imperative for us, and I say us as I believe governments should be all about us, but I believe it should be imperative for us to ensure the health and safety of our fellow human beings who for one reason or another, cannot take care of themselves.

Raw capitalism as practiced in Chile and Argentina in the 70's is cruel and brutal. Sadly, I cannot say differently about Communism.

Today, I feel as though it should be the goal of human kind to find a way to accomplish both sides of the specter in one form of government.

I realize this may not fit into your site plan. I will be watching this post and hope that some very interesting conversations and discussions come from it.

Barbaro

Welcome to revleft. :)

Can you throw some light on the current relationship between China and Cuba ?

[barbaro]

I'm not saying Cuba is good, or that anyone should look up to the system there (at least not as is). The CIA does not think Cuba is awesome. :lol: And I doubt UNICEF does.

If you really look at Cuba's situation, there are three things that are keeping it poor and contribute to shortages of foods, medicines, and other things:

1: Lack of Allies. Many of the problems have appeared since the fall of the USSR.

2: Embargo, has a role in causing the shortages of the things you mentioned, if not directly, then by making the Cuban government pay more to obtain and ship them.

3: Corruption, due in part to the first two but present in all poor countries.

The police state present in Cuba is not due to ideology as much as necessity. The US government actually harbors exile terrorists (it did in the past and theres no reason to think it doesn't now) and has many agents within Cuba. If someone were arrested in the US for being suspected of supporting Al-Qaida, then nobody complains. But if they arrest someone in Cuba for being a foreign agent you hear it all over the internet as "repression of dissidents." So there is a double standard in the media for looking at the US and Cuba. Is Cuba off the hook? Of course not. But it has especially trying circumstances, and those studying its system should take this into account.

Hi,

I agree with you on one of the three. And I would like to say that if I could believe the other two to be true, I would be in Cuba, fighting for our right to govern ourselves as we see fit.

After the fall of the USSR, I began to realize that Cuba was 100% dependent on the USSR. Cuba had nothing in 1992. Nothing. We went through the toughest period ever, no eggs, no meat, rice and some bean soup if you cold get it. Cuba produced nothing. Such a large and fertile land and we were unable to make it support us.

My uncle died two years ago. A tough and to the bone communist, he was not happy to have me argue for sanity in a country I believed to have deviated from the path I thought to have been established by Communism. He hated my arguments against things that did not make sense. But in our last conversation, he told me that he "did not fight all his life for what he was leaving us", "I did not fight for this shit" is the translation for his words which were, "yo no luche por esta mierda". He gave me that, a small admission of my right to question a system many have fought and died for.

The embargo? Only applies if you are Cuban born and live in Cuba. Explain how tourist pharmacies have medicine Cubans can only hope to receive from relatives or friends living in other countries?

The cynicism behind the Cuban story is painful. Keeping one man in power has been the only thing accomplished. The destruction of a country is the result.

Corruption? A country does not have to be poor to have it. corruption is more rampant in the US than people know. It only gets played out in the high spheres where mortal souls cannot dare to look. The US makes it so that poor people cannot be corrupt. How many of your presidents leave the presidency poorer than they entered?

In theory, I love Communism. Socialism is not Communism. Reality has ruined them for me. I have lost faith that humans can ever live for each other from the heart. Cynicism has set in. I am tired.

1-Possibly true, but if you are a country that has nothing to offer, you quickly run out of allies. Especially if you suck their economy down the tubes with your own.

2-The embargo is painfully, sadly, very much supported by Castro. Historically, he has been given plenty of chances to have it eased. To negotiate his way out of it. He's never used these chances to win for his country. The embargo keeps in firmly entrenched in power. It is his biggest ally.

3- Corruption is a dirty part of the human species. We are hypocritical when we say we care for our fellow human beings. We have not yet understood the link between us all, and Cuba is no example. Morals, no matter how much we preach and extol their worth, cannot be legislated into our fiber. In my view, none more corrupt than the US government.

And of course you are right in assuming that Cuba has a right to protect itself from it's enemies. But the police state is not due to a necessity to protect the Cuban people, it is due to a necessity to protect the government from it's own people. Isolate themselves from us so that nothing we can do can hurt them or remove them from power. You forget that the people being jailed are Cuban citizens, the very people we are supposed to care for.

[barbaro]

So, on a scale of 1 to 10 how angry or sad are you -if you are either- that Cuba didn't crumble down to a sensitive capitalist state where people would finally be able to sell their homes in a market?

You recently migrated, maybe a few years ago? So things don't look so hopeful for you people getting the upper hand again any time soon?

I'm also trying to be civil even though you strike me off as rather unpleasant when it comes to what you're proposing as an ideal society. Could you answer a few things? Like age, profession you had in Cuba, what is your occupation now? Things like that.

Hi Red,
Please don't think I am unpleasant. I am not. Maybe you don't like my ideas, but as a person, I can assure you I am not unpleasant. I was an attorney in Cuba. I am a software developer now.
I don't have any idea what an ideal society would be. My wish for the couple of points I put down don't even begin to fill the volumes it would take to create a perfect society. My faith in creating one has been trampled. I've got no better ideas than the next guy. I do have a wish to live a better life and am very cynical of ideas that I have seen put to the test and failed miserably because they totally run against human nature.

[barbaro]

He is not popular with the resident Stalinists since, you know, he's in favour of a humane capitalism with some protection for the "weakest".

He's certainly popular in the sense that he's someone who's in favour of humane capitalism and at the same time against Cuban socialism. I'm very happy he had to leave the island, it would sadden me if he was there dictating policies.

Somehow I don't believe you can ever be as sad as you would be if you had to live there and not where you live now. I don't want to be popular. I thought I'd come here and find a space to discuss my views gleaned from Cuban Socialism. In Cuba, you are either with the government, or against the government. There is no making suggestions to improve the system. A suggestion to improve the system is taken as an affront against it. And it is against that type of ignorance and stupidity that I speak.

Instead of fighting against anything Capitalist, why not take the good from both? Hell, not even from both, from anywhere. Create a society where ALL people can lead dignified lives? Why destroy? Why fight? I feel that it no longer matters who is right and who is wrong, one day, we will all wish we had dedicated more time to our kids and family.

I would also be unhappy if I had to dictate policy as I think it is the people who should dictate policy. Yes, for me, it is essential for people to have a say in the role their government plays. I read in some comment where one poster was saying a president or leader should be changed every year. I so agree with him. I think it should not even be one president, but a panel of presidents. Answering only to the people. Never give one man so much power over your lives.

The US changes dictator every 4 years, but they change. Change is good, but shared power kinda makes it alright for me. Nobody is the boss and decisions are made unanimously. But then you have power struggles. And I am right and you are wrong, and the plight of the people is ignored for years while we fight to win our deserved space in the glory of our selves. And the people languish. In Cuba, we got poorer. And poorer. Until our women find that they must prostitute themselves in order to have better things. I have met brilliant and beautiful surgeons who prostitute themselves because their salary is not enough to put food on the table. Is this a system worth fighting for? Sorry, I am looking to find common ground for a better life.

Blaming the embargo does not justify the lack of a future. Does not justify the desperation on a mother's face when she can't feed her children. (Children over 7 stop receiving milk rations) Nothing solved, our people still go hungry. Still lack basic necessities. And no, if you view it coldly and without idealistic glasses, it boils down to incentive. A better life has been held in front of our eyes for 50 years and every year we are asked to sacrifice more and more. The Cuban people are tired of fighting for the immortality of the crabs. It is a fight in vain. Whatever that system can be called, it cannot be called the solution. I hate the US and what it stands for no less than anyone in this forum, but I cannot in good conscience promote a system that destroys a people just to spite the US.

A bum on the street in the US lives better than your average family in Cuba, and any Cuban living a good life is doing something illegal. Usurping state property or running an illegal business.

I want a better life for my country. Isn't that what you want for your people? I believe it's attainable, but not to the voluntarily blind.

[barbaro]

Welcome to revleft. :)

Can you throw some light on the current relationship between China and Cuba ?

Sure, there are two views in Cuba. Those of us who travel and get to live outside and sometimes see more into these things, and those who are condemmed to live in Cuba and have no hope of ever traveling. The latter, can only hope to receive welfare from China. I can only hope Cuba takes the Chinese route. And Raul is in love with that notion. But as long as Fidel is alive, Raul cannot act on his own. Raul would have already taken steps to follow in China's path, except Fidel survived his sickness. China is waiting for it. China is willing to help.

[Q]

Sure, there are two views in Cuba. Those of us who travel and get to live outside and sometimes see more into these things, and those who are condemmed to live in Cuba and have no hope of ever traveling. The latter, can only hope to receive welfare from China. I can only hope Cuba takes the Chinese route. And Raul is in love with that notion. But as long as Fidel is alive, Raul cannot act on his own. Raul would have already taken steps to follow in China's path, except Fidel survived his sickness. China is waiting for it. China is willing to help.

How would reintroducing free market economic forms be an improvement?

[revolution inaction]

hi barbro, many of us here consider cuba to be state capitalist, and nothing to do with socialism, even less communism. For us socialism doesn't mean state ownership of busnesses, its about the workers controlling the means of production directly (so electing there boss wouldn't count) and organising society for the benefit of all its members. By communism we mean a form of socialism where the principle "from each according to ability, to each according to need" is applied, so all goods are free and people are able to work at what they find them selfs to be best at. It has nothing to do with the communist party being the government, i cant think one "communist party of" that is remotely communist, and if there is a govenmet over the people then clearly the situation has nothing to do with socialism/communism.

of cause the leninists will disagree with this, but although they probably have good intentions there politics are really a load of reactionary shit.

[barbaro]

How would reintroducing free market economic forms be an improvement?

In my opinion, anything that increases the people's incentive to work is an improvement. In order to understand Cuba, one must realize the mechanics of the two currencies at work. The Cuban Peso is a currency which trades at ridiculous rates against the Cuban CUC which trades to unrealistic values against the US dollar. Workers in Cuba are paid in Cuban Pesos. A policeman's salary, the highest paid in the land, earning more than a heart surgeon, is 800 pesos per month. This equates to roughly $32 CUC, $38.40US, per month!

Considering a can of coke costs 0.50CUC, it is not difficult to imagine what a homemaker can do with $32 per month, even if you are among the top wage earners.

There is a saying in Cuba, "Fidel acts like he pays me, and I act like I work". How incentivised would you be if you earned a percentage of what you needed to live on? Not to mention, you have no way, other than illegally, to make up for your deficit? Faced with these odds, a father of three WILL commit crimes against the state in order to feed his family. By crime, I mean a baker will steal flour and sell it in the black market. Or a gas station attendant will water down the gas in the pumps to sell extra gas, or a cigar roller will make lighter cigars so he can roll his own to sell. All this creates an atmosphere of distrust, a second market (black market) which also serves as a repressive tool.

So yes, a variation of a free market, allowing prices to be based on supply and demand would most certainly increase the livelihood of many. It exists in Cuba already, but illegally. The Castros correctly believe they would lose control if they release the market.

[Nolan]

of cause the leninists will disagree with this, but although they probably have good intentions there politics are really a load of reactionary shit.

Says the anarkkkidie.

[revolution inaction]

Says the anarkkkidie.

Right, you showed everyone how much more mature you are than me, well done.

[革命者]

I reread all my posts, and didn't see where I said I own two houses. I own one in Cuba because it has belonged to my family for generations. And I don't own one anywhere else. Have anything else to make up we can fight about?I never said you own two houses.

That Cubans don't work like the Americans has to do with work ethics, not with socialism. Catholics just tend to be less like workaholics.

[Nolan]

I never said you own two houses.

That Cubans don't work like the Americans has to do with work ethics, not with socialism. Catholics just tend to be less like workaholics.

:confused:

[FSL]

Hi Red,
Please don't think I am unpleasant. I am not. Maybe you don't like my ideas, but as a person, I can assure you I am not unpleasant. I was an attorney in Cuba. I am a software developer now.
I don't have any idea what an ideal society would be. My wish for the couple of points I put down don't even begin to fill the volumes it would take to create a perfect society. My faith in creating one has been trampled. I've got no better ideas than the next guy. I do have a wish to live a better life and am very cynical of ideas that I have seen put to the test and failed miserably because they totally run against human nature.


One thing that struck me as odd at first were your English. I doubted you learnt that on the time you spent abroad. You could learn to speak english but write it and with great grammar? That means you probably were taught as a kid. Correct me if I'm wrong though I really don't think I am


You spoke of the failings of the cuban education system yet here you are an educated, cultured lawyer, well-versed in foreign languages. You are a rarity among latin american dissidents, that goes without saying. In most cases poor people in latin america, who have a grudge against their governments, would be happy to have most of their teeth. Writing their names down is also enough for them but in Cuba apparently (judging by Yoanni Sanchez or Oswaldo Paya etc) the better-off someone is, the higher is the chance he'll oppose the government.


I think there is a reason for that. Mainly people like you, who have a better than average education, a greater specialization, even those who were simply raised to be more ambitious, tend to think you could support yourself and achieve a better life than the one you have now. Which can be true in a -I'd say small- number of cases. This is what helped initiate a line of reforms in the USSR which were kinda like what you want. A less-centralized system, a greater chance for the individual to "shine", while also maintaining a social safety net, maybe even guaranteeing empoyment, medical care, access to education. What was shown is that markets and planning (or elements of capitalist relations of production and workers' power) don't really mix. In the USSR the tide was in favour of the markets, in Cuba in favour of the workers. Had it not been that way for Cuba, you might still live there making a fairly decent living. The country as a whole though would be much, much worse, just another typical latin american country, marked by capitalist crises, wealth disparity and exploitation.


I don't think you're a person driven by inherent evil or egoism. I think that to a large degree you made some very conscious -and possibly correct- choices on what would better serve you. It's what everyone should do.
And most workers in Cuba have done just that, thus being able to enjoy a better life than their Jamaican, Haitian or Costa Rican neighbours.
I think that it's generally a good thing if people like you are "forced" to leave the country as their only option. If you were certain that in a few months -ok, maybe a few years at the most- Raul would make the reforms you'd like to see, you'd think twice before leaving (people do develop special bonds with their birthplace, they aren't always easy to break). It seems to me as a sign pointing to the strength of socialism.


Lastly, yes, I'm sure that anyone who lived in the Special Period can only think of it as traumatic. I can't say I've ever found myself threatened by hunger. But socialism wasn't what caused it, I know as much. As socialism wasn't what caused the recent rise of prostitution.
As the workers movement strengthens all across the world (and we are trying our best despite all our errors and disagreements), new revolutions will come and new Soviet Unions will be built. And workers from around the world will once again "depend" on these states. They'll depend on workers' solidarity and cooperation, instead of having to sell their ability to work for an ever-smaller amount. Or needing to resort to petty-theft, or prostitution, or wherever capitalism pushes people to.


In short, Cuba is on the right track for most of its citizens. You're on a different track because your interests (or what you perceive as your interests anyway) tell you you should. That doesn't tell me anything about Cuba that I didn't know.

[barbaro]

How would reintroducing free market economic forms be an improvement?

Simple, human beings need an incentive to work. Socialism, Communism, as we know it, does not provide it. Simply working for the good of all won't cut it. Never has. If you can figure out a way to keep the people incentivized, I would love to hear it.

[red cat]

So, do you oppose the idea that the working class should control the means of production?

[Q]

Simple, human beings need an incentive to work. Socialism, Communism, as we know it, does not provide it. Simply working for the good of all won't cut it. Never has. If you can figure out a way to keep the people incentivized, I would love to hear it.

In the context of a monetary economy, you're of course completely right. But this is not what communism is.

[Chambered Word]

of cause the leninists will disagree with this, but although they probably have good intentions there politics are really a load of reactionary shit.

Marxist-Leninists you mean? They're not the same as Leninists.

[revolution inaction]

Marxist-Leninists you mean? They're not the same as Leninists.

no, i meant all leninists, trotskyist as well as starlinists.

[AmericanRed]

There are many illusions about Cuba in the North American Left. The work of Samuel Farber -- in Against the Current, New Politics and International Socialist Review -- would help to dispel those illusions, if people bothered to read him.

Many of us on RevLeft have a very different idea as to what "socialism" should be from Fidle and Raul. We don't want bureaucratic planning, but we don't want market forces either. We want workers' self-management of production and we want democratic, participatory planning. We want socialism as it was always supposed to be.

[9]

no, i meant all leninists, trotskyist as well as starlinists.

Well in that case, you are simply wrong. Plenty of Leninists don't support the Cuban state. Sorry to disappoint you... Of course, that is not the same as pretending it is equal to the imperialist powers.

[Chambered Word]

Well in that case, you are simply wrong. Plenty of Leninists don't support the Cuban state. Sorry to disappoint you... Of course, that is not the same as pretending it is equal to the imperialist powers.

Pretty much hit the nail on the head there. :)

[revolution inaction]

Well in that case, you are simply wrong. Plenty of Leninists don't support the Cuban state. Sorry to disappoint you... Of course, that is not the same as pretending it is equal to the imperialist powers.

maybe it was a slight over generalisation, but i wasnt just talking about the cuba state but also the nature of socialism, all lenists seem to think state ownership is involved, and support nationalisation.

and who pretends cuba is equal to imperialist powers?

[manic expression]

Depending on the operation, and depending on many factors, easy. There is nothing cynical about people dying because they cannot get medicine unless someone from "outside" sends it to them. Medicine that can be purchased for US dollars at the tourist pharmacy. Bicarbonated Soda, you know, the arm and hammer guy? It took me 4 days, two towns, and 1 dollar per teaspoon to get some. Cotton swabs? Forget it. I was approached by a tourist in Varadero who could not find powdered milk for her baby. A tourist!
Yes, because we all know it's the Cuban government's fault for the (illegal) extraterritorial embargo against the island, and we all know that the fall of the Soviet Union was definitely Cuba's fault.

Did you know that in 1945, you could barely find sugar in Stalingrad? Shocking, but true. I can't believe how inefficient the Soviet Union was. I just can't believe it.


BTW, where do you think UNICEF and the CIA get their facts from? I am seriously not surprised they think Cuba is an awesome system. Nor do I blame you for thinking the same.UNICEF probably gets their facts from something like this:

http://www.unicef.org/statistics/index_24287.html

But don't be so quick to believe what's contained above...Cuba just told them to say all that, and as we all know, UNICEF never doubts Cuba.

The CIA probably gets their facts from spying on Cuba. Luckily enough for UNICEF (and the people of Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Yemen, Haiti and elsewhere), though, the US government is obviously far more honest than the government of Cuba. We can be sure, of course, because the US has worse infant mortality rates than Cuba, worse unemployment, worse housing rates, worse women's rights, worse sponsorship of the arts, worse education and more.

But it's all because UNICEF just believes whatever anyone tells them without doing a single fact-check. A real pity that Russia or Nigeria hasn't caught on...they could double their life expectancy just by lying to UNICEF!

On a lighter note, I applaud your remarkable ability to outfox those gullible UNICEF folks, they had taken me in. And welcome to RevLeft.

[革命者]

Simple, human beings need an incentive to work. Socialism, Communism, as we know it, does not provide it. Simply working for the good of all won't cut it. Never has. If you can figure out a way to keep the people incentivized, I would love to hear it.People work to eat and to have something meaningful to do. Not to earn money.

It's only when money gives you status and more chances than others that money itself becomes important. Money can and should have nothing to do with one's chances in life or with status.

[barbaro]

I never said you own two houses.

That Cubans don't work like the Americans has to do with work ethics, not with socialism. Catholics just tend to be less like workaholics.

"Originally Posted by 革命者
What freedom have you fallen in love with? The freedom to 'own' two houses when others in your country lose theirs? That is indeed some nicety of the US."

Uhh, ok. You need to make sure your password is safe then. Someone has been using your account.

[barbaro]

One thing that struck me as odd at first were your English. I doubted you learnt that on the time you spent abroad. You could learn to speak english but write it and with great grammar? That means you probably were taught as a kid. Correct me if I'm wrong though I really don't think I am

My mother was an American born Cuban. Went back when Castro took power. She made sure I learned English. That, and my perfectionist nature, makes me re-check and double check my writings. Thank you for noting the effort.

You spoke of the failings of the cuban education system yet here you are an educated, cultured lawyer, well-versed in foreign languages. You are a rarity among latin american dissidents, that goes without saying. In most cases poor people in latin america, who have a grudge against their governments, would be happy to have most of their teeth. Writing their names down is also enough for them but in Cuba apparently (judging by Yoanni Sanchez or Oswaldo Paya etc) the better-off someone is, the higher is the chance he'll oppose the government.

I would mostly say the higher educated you are, the bigger your chances of opposing A government like the one in Cuba. Though my education is NOT a product of the Cuban school system, it is a product of my own interest and effort.


I think there is a reason for that. Mainly people like you, who have a better than average education, a greater specialization, even those who were simply raised to be more ambitious, tend to think you could support yourself and achieve a better life than the one you have now. Which can be true in a -I'd say small- number of cases. This is what helped initiate a line of reforms in the USSR which were kinda like what you want. A less-centralized system, a greater chance for the individual to "shine", while also maintaining a social safety net, maybe even guaranteeing empoyment, medical care, access to education. What was shown is that markets and planning (or elements of capitalist relations of production and workers' power) don't really mix. In the USSR the tide was in favour of the markets, in Cuba in favour of the workers. Had it not been that way for Cuba, you might still live there making a fairly decent living. The country as a whole though would be much, much worse, just another typical latin american country, marked by capitalist crises, wealth disparity and exploitation.

There is great confusion about the state of Cuba, as well as it's chances of progress. If you look at the CIA fact book, you will note that Cuba, as a whole, was better off economically BEFORE Castro than at any time AFTER. We lead the whole of South America and Caribbean in TV's, cars, phones owned by household. Per Capita income was through the roof compared to other countries. I fail to see where you think we could get worse.


I don't think you're a person driven by inherent evil or egoism. I think that to a large degree you made some very conscious -and possibly correct- choices on what would better serve you. It's what everyone should do.
And most workers in Cuba have done just that, thus being able to enjoy a better life than their Jamaican, Haitian or Costa Rican neighbours.

I respectfully disagree with your information. Workers in Cuba are now worse off than ever before. Unions are NOT allowed, a state owned and run Union is NOT in the best interests of workers. About the only thing the Cuban government is good at is marketing. Proof of their marketing ability is that they have made you believe a falsehood about the conditions in Cuba.

I think that it's generally a good thing if people like you are "forced" to leave the country as their only option. If you were certain that in a few months -ok, maybe a few years at the most- Raul would make the reforms you'd like to see, you'd think twice before leaving (people do develop special bonds with their birthplace, they aren't always easy to break). It seems to me as a sign pointing to the strength of socialism.

If Cuba's alleged Socialism would have accomplished ten percent of what it says it did, I would still be there.

Lastly, yes, I'm sure that anyone who lived in the Special Period can only think of it as traumatic. I can't say I've ever found myself threatened by hunger. But socialism wasn't what caused it, I know as much. As socialism wasn't what caused the recent rise of prostitution.

We can play with words, and we can call it what you will, but the Cuban government has caused the financial woes in Cuba. No one else has had access to their finances, they are great at blaming everyone else, but there really is no solid proof of their ability to manage even the meager budgets they have worked with. The embargo has been a great scapegoat.

As the workers movement strengthens all across the world (and we are trying our best despite all our errors and disagreements), new revolutions will come and new Soviet Unions will be built. And workers from around the world will once again "depend" on these states. They'll depend on workers' solidarity and cooperation, instead of having to sell their ability to work for an ever-smaller amount. Or needing to resort to petty-theft, or prostitution, or wherever capitalism pushes people to.

Why would you trade one overlord for another? You are referring to "depend" on a government rather than on a company owner. Did I read this right?

In short, Cuba is on the right track for most of its citizens.

And just how do you figure that? I would love to hear, and no, I am not being condescending nor sarcastic. But my experience has been completely different. I would love to hear how you got yours on Cuba.

You're on a different track because your interests (or what you perceive as your interests anyway) tell you you should. That doesn't tell me anything about Cuba that I didn't know.

My opinion is that you know very little about Cuba except what the government puts out there. Cuba, the land of sugar, buys it's sugar from Russia and now Brazil. What happened?

I had an aunt in the central Cuban province, a small town, when she was sick, I returned to visit her. Upon finding out that one of her neighbors was helping to bathe her and put her to bed every night, I left the lady $100. Turns out this lady had never seen a 20 dollar bill. This broke my heart. And you say worker's conditions? This lady did not have shoes for her children.

My cousin is a doctor in the province, by his own words, in his 40 yrs of practice, he's signed hundreds of death certificates for children who died of malnutrition, but of course, in Cuba, he cannot write down malnutrition on those death certificates, lest the world finds out the truth, so he writes "cause of death undetermined" or "heart attack" or anything except the truth, under the threat of jail.


Please read answers above in red.

[barbaro]

People work to eat and to have something meaningful to do. Not to earn money.

It's only when money gives you status and more chances than others that money itself becomes important. Money can and should have nothing to do with one's chances in life or with status.

In a perfect world, so far, not in this one. The reason for the economic slowdown in Cuba is directly attributable to there being no possibility to earn enough money to cover basic necessities. Cuban cigars, long known for their quality are un-smokable now days not because of the quality of the leaf, but because of the unspeakably bad workmanship. I am a life long cigar smoker, I know of what I speak.

Even though we don't want money to be a factor, denying it's influence is the equivalent of driving blind. You cannot exist without it. Don't get me wrong, I do not agree with the concept of money, but I most definitely do not ignore it's influence over a human being's life in this planet.

[FSL]

I would mostly say the higher educated you are, the bigger your chances of opposing A government like the one in Cuba. Though my education is NOT a product of the Cuban school system, it is a product of my own interest and effort.



Because you're special, right? I'm sure people are illiterate as a result of their own lack of efforts.




There is great confusion about the state of Cuba, as well as it's chances of progress. If you look at the CIA fact book, you will note that Cuba, as a whole, was better off economically BEFORE Castro than at any time AFTER. We lead the whole of South America and Caribbean in TV's, cars, phones owned by household. Per Capita income was through the roof compared to other countries. I fail to see where you think we could get worse.



Which speaks volumes on the conditions of the rulling class. If you were smarter -as smart as you're giving yourself credit for- you'd argue that each party member now has a pool to go with his mansion. Cubans being super-rich doesn't really explain the bearded guerillas that brought millions to the streets to celebrate the land reforms.



I respectfully disagree with your information. Workers in Cuba are now worse off than ever before. Unions are NOT allowed, a state owned and run Union is NOT in the best interests of workers. About the only thing the Cuban government is good at is marketing. Proof of their marketing ability is that they have made you believe a falsehood about the conditions in Cuba.




It's Cuba's marketing that thrives?

"But most Costa Ricans appeared reluctant to shake up the status quo in a country with relatively high salaries, the longest life expectancy in Latin America, a thriving ecotourism industry and near-universal literacy."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100208/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/lt_costa_rica_elections_6

Costa Rica's life expectancy is months higher than that of Cuba. Literacy rates and mortality rates are worse. Per capita income is also only slightly higher while the gini coefficient is abyssmal. Yet, Costa Ricans are very right in voting for a government that will keep the country in the same track.
Were we talking about Cuba, it's economy would be on the verge of collapse and its citizens opressed by a ruthless dictatorship.




If Cuba's alleged Socialism would have accomplished ten percent of what it says it did, I would still be there.


The only way you'd continue to be there would be if Cuba's socialism got enough reforms to stop being considered socialism, so that the brighter people could be allowed to rise above others. In other words, if Cuba was a capitalist society with you a part of the bourgeoisie. Or at least to close to them for it to matter.




We can play with words, and we can call it what you will, but the Cuban government has caused the financial woes in Cuba. No one else has had access to their finances, they are great at blaming everyone else, but there really is no solid proof of their ability to manage even the meager budgets they have worked with. The embargo has been a great scapegoat


Again, they seem to be doing perfectly fine for a country of their region. Laws or technology might be your thing but I didn't spend years being taught economics so you could tell me the effects of a trade embargo.



You are referring to "depend" on a government rather than on a company owner. Did I read this right?

I'm referring to depending to other workers. It's the exact same thing that happens now. I rely on others to provide my food and clothing while I offer things in return. It's just that socialism presents the human relations as they trully are, stripping them off the paternalistic image of the kind capitalist who provides for your family.




My opinion is that you know very little about Cuba except what the government puts out there. Cuba, the land of sugar, buys it's sugar from Russia and now Brazil. What happened?


It happend because it diversified its economy just like it should to provide many options for its people. I doubt everyone was born wishing they 'd work in sugar plantations, so I don't see any problem.
Also, agriculture in Cuba is that part of the economy where productivity is less, that's true. It's also the part of the economy that has seen the most reforms. Who'd see that coming?




I had an aunt in the central Cuban province, a small town, when she was sick, I returned to visit her. Upon finding out that one of her neighbors was helping to bathe her and put her to bed every night, I left the lady $100. Turns out this lady had never seen a 20 dollar bill. This broke my heart. And you say worker's conditions? This lady did not have shoes for her children.


Maybe you'd like to mention some prices in Cuba as well. For example what's the rent for a house over there? Please, do say. Money are less important when things are provided free, I bet.



My cousin is a doctor in the province, by his own words, in his 40 yrs of practice, he's signed hundreds of death certificates for children who died of malnutrition, but of course, in Cuba, he cannot write down malnutrition on those death certificates, lest the world finds out the truth, so he writes "cause of death undetermined" or "heart attack" or anything except the truth, under the threat of jail.


Well, at least here you don't dispute the biased UNICEF data. Still, one problem. A death not caused from malnutrition is still a death, ya know. It will still show up on charts and cause infant mortality to rise above the official levels. What you should have said is that children who die of malnutrition are disposed like trash. That way all numbers would continue to look good, not just malnutrition.

And just for your information, so you might not make rookie mistakes in the future, the existence and extent of malnutrition is not calculated based on people dying, but on people's healthy or not growth. Are Cubans too short? Not according to information I've seen. Unicef has even said malnutrition is not a problem in Cuba, but yeah, I bet these UN guys will buy anything a commie dictator tells them.

[Nolan]

Good post FSL.

Whenever I bring up the embargo, the "cuba libre" nuts have two generic responses. They either deny its effects altogether, or mutter something about it being a scapegoat. Now barbaro, your post about the embargo being Castro's biggest ally is a gross oversimplification (in saying that youre admitting that it has serious effects, but thats beside the point). If that were really the case, the US would have lifted the embargo with the hopes that it would destabilize Cuba. So obviously the siege on Cuba is more effective than the anti-castro lobby is willing to admit.

Cuba was the land of sugar. But land reform and other things happened to diversify Cuba's economy. I don't think I have to explain why the embargo would have been even more effective if Cuba had kept relying on one product to export.

[barbaro]

Because you're special, right? I'm sure people are illiterate as a result of their own lack of efforts.

Yup, I am most certainly special. My mother told me so. That still doesn't make the Cuban educational system a winning entity. I know first hand their system is a failure, and there is little I can do to convince you otherwise, so let's admit it is a beacon of success and should be replicated throughout the world.


Which speaks volumes on the conditions of the rulling class. If you were smarter -as smart as you're giving yourself credit for- you'd argue that each party member now has a pool to go with his mansion. Cubans being super-rich doesn't really explain the bearded guerillas that brought millions to the streets to celebrate the land reforms.

For the record, I never said I was smart. Nor did I take credit for being smart. Nor have I made assumptions as to your IQ.

Land reforms? You mean theft, is that the way to provide for a country? A Robin Hood type of reform? So when you need money, you just walk up to a rich person and take it? What happens when all the money is gone? You've told the people that they no longer will need to worry, you will now provide for them with the money you stole from the rich. Their factories shall be run by idealists now. No problem if they know nothing about business, it can't be that hard can it? Well, the money ran out, then came Russia, and when their money ran out, came Chavez, always a new sugar daddy to help and offer a handout while Cuba produces less and less each year. To the point where production is now so low, we are not allowed to eat meat. Killing a cow is worth a 30 yr prison sentence. This is how we take care of the workers? By ruining the country? Bringing it to the brink of collapse?

You think of me as a hater of Socialism. And yet you promote a government you've never lived under. I have grave criticism for the Cuban government, but still believe socialism has a place in the world. But true socialism, not the shit that exists in Cuba. The Cuban government is an excuse producing machine. Never their fault, always something else to blame for their inadequacies. Well, after 50 yrs of failing, isn't it time to rethink the whoe thing?


It's Cuba's marketing that thrives?

Yes, fidel is a very able marketer, you bought into Cuba without ever stepping foot on it. You yourself were sold. Now tell me that is not marketing! He's a genius in marketing.

"But most Costa Ricans appeared reluctant to shake up the status quo in a country with relatively high salaries, the longest life expectancy in Latin America, a thriving ecotourism industry and near-universal literacy."

[I had to remove the link to be able to post]

Costa Rica's life expectancy is months higher than that of Cuba. Literacy rates and mortality rates are worse. Per capita income is also only slightly higher while the gini coefficient is abyssmal. Yet, Costa Ricans are very right in voting for a government that will keep the country in the same track.
Were we talking about Cuba, it's economy would be on the verge of collapse and its citizens opressed by a ruthless dictatorship.

Per Capita income, if you choose to believe the Cuban government, and consider someone's opposing view in the same light, there's not much to say, other than, I dare you to move to Cuba and live as a Cuban for one year. We could take up this conversation then.

BTW, their economy is in a shambles and we are oppressed by a ruthless dictator. Have you missed the last 50 years in Cuba? I swear I am convinced you have never been to Cuba, much less lived it.


The only way you'd continue to be there would be if Cuba's socialism got enough reforms to stop being considered socialism, so that the brighter people could be allowed to rise above others. In other words, if Cuba was a capitalist society with you a part of the bourgeoisie. Or at least to close to them for it to matter.

So, you deny there are brighter people in the world. Unfortunately, there are. People way brighter than you and me. Sorry. The only way to equalize a people is to dumb them all down. You cannot raise an IQ from 80 to 140 with an ideal.


Again, they seem to be doing perfectly fine for a country of their region. Laws or technology might be your thing but I didn't spend years being taught economics so you could tell me the effects of a trade embargo.

Again with the they're doing just fine. You think? Well, again I lay down the challenge for you to live in Cuba for one year without you passport. If after that time you still believe we are doing quite well, then you are blind.

I'm referring to depending to other workers. It's the exact same thing that happens now. I rely on others to provide my food and clothing while I offer things in return. It's just that socialism presents the human relations as they trully are, stripping them off the paternalistic image of the kind capitalist who provides for your family.

Right now, nobody provides for my family but me. I work independently and do better than I could have ever imagined. No, believing in Socialism to me, does not imply I must live as a pauper. It implies that I must help people to better themselves if they let me. Contributing to their enrichment if I can. Not everyone wants to pay the price of success. We are not equal.



It happend because it diversified its economy just like it should to provide many options for its people. I doubt everyone was born wishing they 'd work in sugar plantations, so I don't see any problem.
Also, agriculture in Cuba is that part of the economy where productivity is less, that's true. It's also the part of the economy that has seen the most reforms. Who'd see that coming?

Oh, so wait, just to make sure, so, if I want to increase wealth overall, I should bankrupt the company. Makes sense. So your financial education taught you that? There is nothing wrong with working on a sugar plantation. There is something definitely wrong in destroying one to achieve... wait, I lost track of what they were trying to achieve because all I can see are ruins in Cuba.


Maybe you'd like to mention some prices in Cuba as well. For example what's the rent for a house over there? Please, do say. Money are less important when things are provided free, I bet.

You can rent a small apartment for about 40CUC per month. In order to own a house, it must be given to you by the government, but wait, it gets better, you cannot buy one. So you have to wait until your parents die, then, you build walls for your brothers and sisters and their families and all live together happily sharing one bathroom and a kitchen. Pure nirvana I swear. Now, back to the 40CUC per month, that's 8 dollars more than what a cop, the highest paid in the land, receives as a salary. And, it's illegal to rent. Where are all the houses that the government was supposed to build? Time now for your infinite wisdom here.


Well, at least here you don't dispute the biased UNICEF data. Still, one problem. A death not caused from malnutrition is still a death, ya know. It will still show up on charts and cause infant mortality to rise above the official levels. What you should have said is that children who die of malnutrition are disposed like trash. That way all numbers would continue to look good, not just malnutrition.

You're picking at words here. My cousin is the doctor, not me. I found it appalling that he had to lie on death certificates, but of course, we can't afford to have you think there's malnutrition in Cuba now can we? Let's concentrate on my rookie errors why don't we.

And just for your information, so you might not make rookie mistakes in the future, the existence and extent of malnutrition is not calculated based on people dying, but on people's healthy or not growth. Are Cubans too short? Not according to information I've seen. Unicef has even said malnutrition is not a problem in Cuba, but yeah, I bet these UN guys will buy anything a commie dictator tells them.

But yeah, let's forget about children dying from malnutrition. Lets concentrate on my being a rookie. Name calling always works for the Cuban government as well. Yet, they are no closer to Socialism today than at any other time in history. No one in Unicef has lived in Cuba without a passport. And for your information, the only place to get any kind of data is from the Cuban government, and I bet they are perfectly willing to admit to their shambles of a government to a world organization.

I would really like to know if you have been in Cuba. Or, are affiliated in any way with the Cuban government. It certainly sounds like you are willing to defend them.

You could not love Socialism more than I did back in the day. But what we have in Cuba comes nowhere near Socialism. And I speak for many Cubans when I say, "Cuba has Socialism? I'd rather take my chances with a capitalist pig for a boss". Proof of this is that more than 30% of the Cuban population has emigrated from Cuba. The other 70% simply can't. Remember the Mariel boatlift? I have never seen a US, or European boatlift. Much less to Cuba. Something is wrong in Cuba. And I don't believe Socialism has anything to do with it.

"Cuando un pueblo emigra, sobran los gobernantes" Jose Marti

"When a people migrate, the rulers are surplus" Meaning useless.

[barbaro]

Good post FSL.

Whenever I bring up the embargo, the "cuba libre" nuts have two generic responses. They either deny its effects altogether, or mutter something about it being a scapegoat. Now barbaro, your post about the embargo being Castro's biggest ally is a gross oversimplification (in saying that youre admitting that it has serious effects, but thats beside the point). If that were really the case, the US would have lifted the embargo with the hopes that it would destabilize Cuba. So obviously the siege on Cuba is more effective than the anti-castro lobby is willing to admit.

Cuba was the land of sugar. But land reform and other things happened to diversify Cuba's economy. I don't think I have to explain why the embargo would have been even more effective if Cuba had kept relying on one product to export.


Let me tell you how the embargo works. It prevents Cuba from participating in markets where the US dollar circulates. No access to financial markets where the US dollar circulates. But. last I heard, there was no embargo from Europe and Cuba can and does operate with Euros. Though for the life of me, I can't understand why they still peg their currency to the US dollar. I would have switched to Euros ages ago.

Canada, Mexico, Europe, and a host of other countries sell American goods to Cuba on a daily basis. Cuba owes Spain close to one billion dollars. The embargo does affect Cuba, to say differently is stupid, and I join with you in ridiculing your "Cuba libre" nuts. But this is simply a case of repeating a lie long enough and people believing it. My position is that it doesn't affect Cuba nearly as much as they claim it does. The embargo turned them into terrible managers of an economy? You cannot blame the embargo for everything now can you?

BTW, presently, the US is Cuba's biggest provider. They buy tons of stuff from the US. But without credit. Still, it has served them well the embargo, I was even told that we could not buy cow feed because of the embargo. But somehow, miraculously, a tourist can walk into a hotel in Varadero and order fillet mignon. So the embargo is good for some, not for others right? When I am allowed to post links, I will post some very interesting information.

But for the record, I am utterly hated by the Cuba Libre crowd. And to be honest with you, not in the least bit worried about it. I have enough complaints to keep both sides mad at me for a long time. I stand for reason and for what works. Not pipe dreams touted by either side. If Socialism can offer a better life, it better be prepared to deliver it. Not by offering excuses, or by forcing me to believe, I want to see it make life better for real. Hell, Capitalism isn't doing a better job either. So I plant myself firmly in the middle.

[Bright Banana Beard]

But in our last conversation, he told me that he "did not fight all his life for what he was leaving us", "I did not fight for this shit" is the translation for his words which were, "yo no luche por esta mierda".

What your uncle probably meant is that he didn't want to die at all or the illness he had.

Well, I know some Cubans and even my stepfather is a Cuban himself and they all wants to go back with loads of money, they even fucking hate the gusanos and Cuba libre crowd.

[FSL]

Barbaro, you did come here presenting yourself as a rather open-minded person, willing to discuss a number of things and one who's seen the weaknesses of both worlds, thus excells in wisdom when compared to others. Still, I'm not surprised by how you went on after that.




For the record, I never said I was smart. Nor did I take credit for being smart. Nor have I made assumptions as to your IQ.

Not everyone wants to pay the price of success. We are not equal.



Ok, you're not especially smart. But you indeed are special. You little snowflake you.




Land reforms? You mean theft, is that the way to provide for a country? A Robin Hood type of reform? So when you need money, you just walk up to a rich person and take it?



Personally, I'd be in favour of a Josef Stalin/Che Guevara type of reform. Where you walk up to the rich guy, take his money and if he's really really annoyning, send him to prison.

I like how you position yourself to be somewhere in the middle ground between socialism and capitalism, when you oppose from a specific point of view, the basics of socialism. Owning land isn't a right. Or it used to be a right, reserved for landowners of the 10th century. Socialism does away with rights like this one.




You think of me as a hater of Socialism. And yet you promote a government you've never lived under. I have grave criticism for the Cuban government, but still believe socialism has a place in the world. But true socialism, not the shit that exists in Cuba. The Cuban government is an excuse producing machine. Never their fault, always something else to blame for their inadequacies. Well, after 50 yrs of failing, isn't it time to rethink the whoe thing



Where true socialism is some people owning land and the means of production and no one being able to get them as that would be theft.

Cuba's socialism has "50 years of failing" and yet it still hasn't "failed". Damn, you seem angry about it.




Per Capita income, if you choose to believe the Cuban government, and consider someone's opposing view in the same light, there's not much to say, other than, I dare you to move to Cuba and live as a Cuban for one year. We could take up this conversation then.

BTW, their economy is in a shambles and we are oppressed by a ruthless dictator. Have you missed the last 50 years in Cuba? I swear I am convinced you have never been to Cuba, much less lived it.



You kinda missed my point. If it's Fidel who's great in marketing, then how come it's Costa Rica that's being portrayed as a country on the right track, where the people have no reason to question its course? The data is rigged and UNICEF, the CIA, everyone is getting fooled, yeah I gathered as much, but just how better is life in Costa Rica? Infinite times better?




You can rent a small apartment for about 40CUC per month. In order to own a house, it must be given to you by the government, but wait, it gets better, you cannot buy one. So you have to wait until your parents die, then, you build walls for your brothers and sisters and their families and all live together happily sharing one bathroom and a kitchen. Pure nirvana I swear. Now, back to the 40CUC per month, that's 8 dollars more than what a cop, the highest paid in the land, receives as a salary. And, it's illegal to rent. Where are all the houses that the government was supposed to build? Time now for your infinite wisdom here.



For those now owning homes rent is fixed to be a ridiculously small part of their income. According to you, if 90% of Cubans have their own home, the rest 10% would be homeless. I wasn't talking about tourist prices. Did you try to trick me there? Oh snap.

It is great that you can't buy and sell homes, housing is a need and a right, not a commodity.

I'll attest to socialism failing when it ends up looking like this. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1159677/Pictured-The-credit-crunch-tent-city-returned-haunt-America.html

Which will be never.




You're picking at words here. My cousin is the doctor, not me. I found it appalling that he had to lie on death certificates, but of course, we can't afford to have you think there's malnutrition in Cuba now can we? Let's concentrate on my rookie errors why don't we.
But yeah, let's forget about children dying from malnutrition. Lets concentrate on my being a rookie. Name calling always works for the Cuban government as well. Yet, they are no closer to Socialism today than at any other time in history. No one in Unicef has lived in Cuba without a passport. And for your information, the only place to get any kind of data is from the Cuban government, and I bet they are perfectly willing to admit to their shambles of a government to a world organization.



Ok, so do doctors write down cause of death unknown for kids that die of malnutrition and then make the death certificates disappear altogether when UN officials come to ask? Why bother though, since they weren't going to be showing them to anyone?




You could not love Socialism more than I did back in the day.



*Teary eyes*




But what we have in Cuba comes nowhere near Socialism. And I speak for many Cubans when I say, "Cuba has Socialism? I'd rather take my chances with a capitalist pig for a boss". Proof of this is that more than 30% of the Cuban population has emigrated from Cuba. The other 70% simply can't. Remember the Mariel boatlift? I have never seen a US, or European boatlift. Much less to Cuba. Something is wrong in Cuba. And I don't believe Socialism has anything to do with it.




Of course it has. There is no place for you in socialism, what were you to do?

[barbaro]

Apologies to everyone, I've been traveling and access has been kind of iffy. FSL, I am sorry I'm not part of your clique and failed the test. But I will not apologize for Socialism or Capitalism. You must be living a better life than you lead on. I've only ever met happy couch Socialists. I'll have more as soon as I get back home.