Profound Quotes: Charles Manson

[KarlMarx1989]

Over the last couple of years, I have been interested and have looked into the case vs. Charles Manson from the late 1960's. The US media demonizes Charles Manson with their bias and they belittle everything he says. I ask, however, have any of us really looked at what Charles Manson has said without the bias. After watching several interviews of Charles Manson and ignoring the bias, I've noticed that Charles Manson has said some pretty profound things about life. Here are a few that have stuck out to me:

"Love is a word that we use to supplement for god; or I would rather use the word intelligence. If you're going to use the word 'love', use the word 'intelligence' because love is misunderstood in so many ways."

"Don't lie. If someone catches you in a lie, you leave yourself open to get snuffed. All my life I've lived in the eye of that: Tell the truth, pay your debts, don't get involved in anyone else's business...and you'll learn to stand on your own. So, I'm walking and standing on my own. People see me standing on my own. Not to many people in your world can do that but I don't realize that at that particular time [1967]. I don't realize how weak and mindless you people are."

"Care? What the hell does that mean: Care? Put me in solitary confinement, break my teeth out, break my ribs, brush me up, kick me down a hole, and then come back and tell me about 'care.' "

"How could I have remorse for her love's giving to the world? On the alternate road, I wouldn't hide it; I'd say, 'That's beautiful' but to those who cannot give in the word love, they would hide and say 'How terrible, it is'; but ask the [inaudible] when his young son goes out there and gets his legs blown off, or someone dies for something they believe in, to die and martyr themselves into forever but then someone who can't see that as being love will turn around and call that dirty and they call it nasty and they make their children into being criminals and crooks and then they hide them up underneath the thing."

"They don't care; I do but they'll turn that around and they'll say that I don't care, that they do. Then they'll say 'We'll go help the misused children.' I say, 'If you are going to help the abused children; what about [the people in] these penitentiaries across the country? Aren't they abused children, too, or did you forget those?' "

"When you've got no place to go and the children can't find a father in the system and you lay down and you say 'Can I get some help?' and they won't give you no help and you get stepped on in the face; and pretty soon you say 'What can you do here?'...[That's how it was] for that generation...I am not in that generation."

"I don't think you guys are seeing me...you don't understand yourselves."

"Love casts out all fear. If you're afraid of me, there's something wrong with you."

"I've got peace but until everyone has peace, I can't have peace."

"When you take a negative from a picture and you hold it up to the light, you don't see the light, you see the negative. So, what you think in your mind, as you look at me, is how you're judging yourself in the world."

-- Charles Manson

[Dean]

It's not incredibly clear to me how what Charles Manson did was particularly wrong in the first place. But its true that he is certainly not the most coherent or consistent person. He definitely has a lot of interesting, even noble insights, but the fact that he had a swastika tattooed on his head exemplifies his tenuous grasp on reality. Still, in some ways, he is incredibly more realistic than the mainstream. The same can be said for Ted Kaczynski, for instance, whose analysis of western civilization carries with it some incredibly accurate sentiments, while at the same time routinely falling back on rhetoric, and ultimately reaching conclusions, which are contradictory at best, and at worst, downright bizarre.

[KarlMarx1989]

Yeah, the Swastika on his forehead has always been somewhat of a mystery to me. He's never really addressed why he put it there. At least, I'd never heard him address it. It's even at that 45 degree angle, which would happen to puzzle me more. I do agree that Charlie's view of reality and seem bizarre at times, although I would go so far as to say that I can see where he is coming from at least; unique as his explanations of reality can be.

[Dooga Aetrus Blackrazor]

Charles Manson manipulated many people into committing murder. He's clearly suffering from psychiatric problems, as well documented by many people. He's a dangerous individual who may have brief moments of coherency. Anyone can put together quotable sentences once in awhile. There are plenty of Manson quotes that make him look absolutely insane (as he is).


"Love is a word that we use to supplement for god; or I would rather use the word intelligence. If you're going to use the word 'love', use the word 'intelligence' because love is misunderstood in so many ways."

People try to use love to replace God. Intelligence is better. What a breakthrough.



"Don't lie. If someone catches you in a lie, you leave yourself open to get snuffed. All my life I've lived in the eye of that: Tell the truth, pay your debts, don't get involved in anyone else's business...and you'll learn to stand on your own. So, I'm walking and standing on my own. People see me standing on my own. Not to many people in your world can do that but I don't realize that at that particular time [1967]. I don't realize how weak and mindless you people are."

You should lie in certain cases. You should get involved in other people's business in certain cases. Plenty of people have a high degree of independence. And it's not exactly a breakthrough that people are mindless and stupid sometimes.


"Care? What the hell does that mean: Care? Put me in solitary confinement, break my teeth out, break my ribs, brush me up, kick me down a hole, and then come back and tell me about 'care.' "


Go look in a dictionary, Mr. Manson. It's not a complicated concept.


"How could I have remorse for her love's giving to the world? On the alternate road, I wouldn't hide it; I'd say, 'That's beautiful' but to those who cannot give in the word love, they would hide and say 'How terrible, it is'; but ask the [inaudible] when his young son goes out there and gets his legs blown off, or someone dies for something they believe in, to die and martyr themselves into forever but then someone who can't see that as being love will turn around and call that dirty and they call it nasty and they make their children into being criminals and crooks and then they hide them up underneath the thing."


Context is needed for that one, as far as I can tell.


"They don't care; I do but they'll turn that around and they'll say that I don't care, that they do. Then they'll say 'We'll go help the misused children.' I say, 'If you are going to help the abused children; what about [the people in] these penitentiaries across the country? Aren't they abused children, too, or did you forget those?' "

It's very easy for an angry person to point out the obvious. And Manson isn't exactly stupid. He's just not sane.


"When you've got no place to go and the children can't find a father in the system and you lay down and you say 'Can I get some help?' and they won't give you no help and you get stepped on in the face; and pretty soon you say 'What can you do here?'...[That's how it was] for that generation...I am not in that generation."


That's not bad, but it's been said before.


"I don't think you guys are seeing me...you don't understand yourselves."

This is just narcissism.


"Love casts out all fear. If you're afraid of me, there's something wrong with you."

Love doesn't cast out all fear. That's simply not true. Love can make people more fearful. You can also love and fear someone at the same time. This statement is ridiculous.


"I've got peace but until everyone has peace, I can't have peace."

This is close to being contradictory. Even if it's not, it's a rather badly phrased point that looks at peace in an unusual and non-productive way.


"When you take a negative from a picture and you hold it up to the light, you don't see the light, you see the negative. So, what you think in your mind, as you look at me, is how you're judging yourself in the world."

Thrilling.

***

There are plenty of more useful sources of wisdom available before resorting to insane criminals. I'll give him that he can use some nice metaphors and make a few interesting observations. After all, he needed those skills to manipulate people. I'd hardly call him profound. Religious people say things like that all the time. All it involves is stringing words together.

Not all caterpillars become butterflies, but we assume the caterpillar lives to become one. The caterpillar simply lives. We'd do well to follow its wisdom.

There is my randomly strung together piece of nonsense. It makes sense, but it's ridiculously stupid (I think). I'm not being profound, in my view. But maybe I just have high standards.

[KarlMarx1989]

@ Dooga Aetrus: I can tell that you are one who has looked at Manson through the media and its bias. Perhaps you should look at some interviews with Charlie, I can assure you that you'll find that his story about the "murders" is quite consistent.

Charlie didn't "manipulate" any kind of murder nor did he kill anyone himself. He did "preach" to his friends when they dropped acid, but that wouldn't be enough to make someone go kill someone else. Something they learned from Charlie is how to be honest. They were honest to each other.

One more thing: Unless you have a degree in psychology or a subject related to psychology, I don't think that you're opinion is very credible presented as fact. Presented as opinion, however, I can see how that is a topic worth looking into and studying.

[Dooga Aetrus Blackrazor]

You don't need a degree in psychology to analyze simple court cases. They provide the expert witnesses with the information. That's why the jury system is more successful than not, though it has its problems.

Where is this information from? And why do you conclude preaching to people on acid isn't enough to convince them to kill? Can you provide some information in support of Manson? Perhaps something by a Phd, preferably, in law, psychology, or psychiatry? I've never even heard of someone believing he is innocent until now, quite frankly. Wikipedia is generally very generous when it comes to such obscure views. I can't find anything in support of this opinion.

I'll step back and listen, I suppose, but I really can't understand where you're getting this from. It's also a weird thing to form an interest in, quite frankly. Do you have a personal interest in the case?

[Hit The North]

Charles Manson manipulated many people into committing murder.



Possibly. But not more so than Johnson, Nixon, Kissinger, Bush snr, Bush jnr, Tony Blair, Jack Straw or Obama.

But I can't see the reason why the babblings of this maniac are in Philosophy... So, moved to History.

[Rjevan]

It's like Dooga says, anybody can come up with some quotable "insights", give me a topic while I have a good and inspiring day and I'll get you some wishy-washy pseudo-philosophical quotes, too. Honestly, read the bible or have a look at Buddhist works, you'll find similar stuff regarding context, "logic" and "insightfulness".
Just a few:


So, I'm walking and standing on my own. People see me standing on my own. Not to many people in your world can do that but I don't realize that at that particular time [1967]. I don't realize how weak and mindless you people are."

Yeah, man, really awesome, you are the best and one and only, Mr arrogant Superbrain, we got that...

"Care? What the hell does that mean: Care? Put me in solitary confinement, break my teeth out, break my ribs, brush me up, kick me down a hole, and then come back and tell me about 'care.' "

"Justice? What the hell does that mean: Justice? Put me in solitary confinement, break my free will, break my pride, brush up your hypocritical conscience, kick me down in the dirt at your feet, you honourable gentleman, and then come back and tell me about 'justice'."
See? Makes about as much sense, will anybody quote and admire me now for this brilliant insight? I seriously hope not.

"They don't care; I do but they'll turn that around and they'll say that I don't care, that they do. Then they'll say 'We'll go help the misused children.' I say, 'If you are going to help the abused children; what about [the people in] these penitentiaries across the country? Aren't they abused children, too, or did you forget those?' "
I totally disagree with this view and in debates here where I argued otherwise I encountered people who said almost exactly the same... all nice and well but so what?

"Love casts out all fear. If you're afraid of me, there's something wrong with you."
"I've got peace but until everyone has peace, I can't have peace."
The first one is nonsense and false, the second one is ridiculous wannabe philosophical babbling which, as Dooga said, contradicts itself.

"I don't think you guys are seeing me...you don't understand yourselves."
"When you take a negative from a picture and you hold it up to the light, you don't see the light, you see the negative. So, what you think in your mind, as you look at me, is how you're judging yourself in the world."

Man, brilliant, Jesus and Buddha together couldn't have come up with such great wishy-washy phrases which sounds philosophical as hell but are nothing but utter nonsense!

Finally, leave aside the murders which you obviously believe he is accused of innocently and had nothing to do with, I hope you are aware that this swastika on his forehead is no mystery at all if you consider Manson's view on race and race war, google "Helter Skelter" if you are not familiar with that term, which also serves as good example for Manson's insanity, by the way.

[Dooga Aetrus Blackrazor]

Possibly. But not more so than Johnson, Nixon, Kissinger, Bush snr, Bush jnr, Tony Blair, Jack Straw or Obama.

But I can't see the reason why the babblings of this maniac are in Philosophy... So, moved to History.

But who here would say they aren't a criminal? We'd just say they're getting away with being criminals.

[KarlMarx1989]

You do know that Charlie Manson never got to call his own witnesses, right? I also must question whether or not he got to provide his own evidence or even his testimony concerning the incident?

It was a botched case, completely one sided. Charlie stood no chance to defend himself because people classified him as a "psycho."

Anyway, he learnt everything he knew from experience. Everything he learnt was unbiased and more straight forward than anything that can be taught in the US schooling system. Charlie learnt that money really isn't everything. Charlie had all the money he could wish for in his younger days. Charlie learnt that telling the truth {something I can tell a lot of us don't do} could really make him a better person, independently.

Now, I'm not saying that Charles Manson is any sort of guru or anything and not everything he says should be taken into consideration because everyone leads different lives. I'm just saying that there are some things that he's said that could really be learnt from that not a lot of people think about.

[Kléber]

His best and most insightful quote ever, though, has got to be the query he put to some reporters in prison:

"Do you feel blame? Are you mad? Uh, do you feel like a wool shishkebab red vantage? Gefannis bupoochbujujube; bear-ramage. Jigiji geeji geeja geeble google. Begep flagaggle vaggle veditch-waggle bagga?"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XREnvJRkif0

[KarlMarx1989]

Taken out of context. He was doing to them what people in the media do to him: Belittle him. So, he was using a bit of satire but what he was doing was belittling them in a way while asking if they felt mad because they felt like idiots. In fact right after that, he said "Why don't you go and blame the little babies?" Which would be what the "babbling" was supposed to resemble through his satire.

Here, I'm going to go get the full installment {Which, actually, MSNBC still edited some out of} only...without the bias:

[KarlMarx1989]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kuzla1IYUGA&feature=player_embedded
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c48s-zkpFv8&feature=player_embedded
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XA1a0oJZiNE&feature=player_embedded

[bcbm]

what a bizarre thread. why do you keep referring to him as "charlie," like you know him?

[Kléber]

The sayings of Manson are those of a disturbed individual and obviously reflect a great degree of alienation towards modern US capitalist society. The fact that some young people went along with his murderous adventure, probably because of its pseudo-revolutionary phraseology, is indicative of the desperate striving for revolutionary consciousness among workers and youth. You could arguably say that there is a (poorly articulated) desire for a return to primitive communism that sticks out from his philosophy. But his his solution to the crisis (kill some celebs to incite a race war, go into a cave in New Mexico and wait for the apocalypse when capitalist society will be destroyed and the group can roam free) is useless for the working class. And also it has racist undertones, not only does he see a "race war" as the only type of struggle that can bring down capitalism, he wanted to re-enslave black people after the apocalypse. One of his followers, Paul Watkins said that Manson told him they "would scratch [the black man's] fuzzy head and kick him in the butt and tell him to go pick the cotton and go be a good n-."

WARNING: GRAPHIC IMAGE
Don't forget where his ideas ended up (http://flapsblog.com/wp-content/uploads/Sharon-Tate-murder-scene.jpg).

[KarlMarx1989]

why do you keep referring to him as "charlie," like you know him?


It's just is an short way of putting his name as he was known as.


his solution to the crisis (kill some celebs to incite a race war, go into a cave in New Mexico and wait for the apocalypse when capitalist society will be destroyed and the group can roam free)


Correction, he never killed anyone and he never instructed anyone to kill anyone. And he never intended to start the race war he refers to a lot; he was saying that it was going to happen anyway and he went to the desert to get out of it until it was over. Maybe instead of looking at Charlie through the media, perhaps you should look at his interview with your own eyes. I am perplexed at your {plural} observation at this as one dimentional. Maybe look at it from the otehr side before judging. Some people have to learn anything about it at all. :/ A lot of you tend to take everything Charlie's said, that you heard a long time ago, out of context and you ignore everything else he said but listen to what the media told you.

[bcbm]

apparently going to jail doesn't lessen the "power" of some cult leaders to attract followers.

[KarlMarx1989]

Hmm. How ignorant some of you can get.

[KarlMarx1989]

I don't know where the idea of Charlie and his friends being a cult came from; but I strongly disagree. However, the mass media tends to refer to him and his friends as a cult and a lot of people believe the media. I suppose we could say that the media has quite a bit of "followers." A lot of people seem to believe what the news media says, the news media that fights for better ratings and so as a result report the most interesting or scariest stories so they can to get the greater amount of people to watch their programs. It's all about money to the media, not about the truth. But what do I know, I'm no news reporter.

[Kléber]

Counter revolutionary Trotskyites should learn from Manson. How many celebrities have Trotskyites stabbed and strangled to death? The only thing Trots have ever stabbed is the revolution, in the back! ohhhhhhh!! Thanks but I'll choose a revolutionary tendency that actually DOES something: long live Marxism-Leninism-Mansonism!

But no, really, you're right that the media sucks and has probably killed more people than the Manson family. That said, it wasn't just the media, it was the members of his "family" that said he ordered the Tate-LaBianca killings.

[Revy]

It's not incredibly clear to me how what Charles Manson did was particularly wrong in the first place.



The same can be said for Ted Kaczynski.

WTF!:confused:

[Invincible Summer]

It's just is an short way of putting his name as he was known as.

Charles = 7 letters

Charlie = 7 letters

[Dimentio]

Its soooo 2003 to like Charles Manson. :lol:

[Dimentio]

You do know that Charlie Manson never got to call his own witnesses, right? I also must question whether or not he got to provide his own evidence or even his testimony concerning the incident?

It was a botched case, completely one sided. Charlie stood no chance to defend himself because people classified him as a "psycho."

Anyway, he learnt everything he knew from experience. Everything he learnt was unbiased and more straight forward than anything that can be taught in the US schooling system. Charlie learnt that money really isn't everything. Charlie had all the money he could wish for in his younger days. Charlie learnt that telling the truth {something I can tell a lot of us don't do} could really make him a better person, independently.

Now, I'm not saying that Charles Manson is any sort of guru or anything and not everything he says should be taken into consideration because everyone leads different lives. I'm just saying that there are some things that he's said that could really be learnt from that not a lot of people think about.

Evidently, they did not consider Charles Manson "psycho" as he was sentenced to life imprisonment and mot mental care. What Manson foremost was, was that he was very manipulative and probably on an instinctive level knew what was the mantra of his time.

He still seems to have his ATWA organisation active. Its all style and no content, though. As expected.

[bcbm]

I don't know where the idea of Charlie and his friends being a cult came from

former cult members. they've written books about it. they also give plenty of interviews.

[Forward Union]

Yeah, the Swastika on his forehead has always been somewhat of a mystery to me.

Not for me. He's a totally insane psychopathic cult murderer who conspired to kill loads of fucking people.

He's scum and shoud hurry up and die.

[Forward Union]

Evidently, they did not consider Charles Manson "psycho" as he was sentenced to life imprisonment and mot mental care. What Manson foremost was, was that he was very manipulative and probably on an instinctive level knew what was the mantra of his time.

He still seems to have his ATWA organisation active. Its all style and no content, though. As expected.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2oZWpqtNi4

[KarlMarx1989]

Charlie didn't "manipulate" any kind of murder nor did he kill anyone himself.
You do know that Charlie Manson never got to call his own witnesses, right? I also must question whether or not he got to provide his own evidence or even his testimony concerning the incident?

It was a botched case, completely one sided. Charlie stood no chance to defend himself because people classified him as a "psycho."

he never killed anyone and he never instructed anyone to kill anyone.

Hmm, after reviewing all I've said concerning whether or not Charlie really "ordered" or manipulated the murders; I've found that perhaps I'm not explaining it well enough:

The media demonized Charlie and his friends. Think of the ideal christian-American "morals" of the 1950's and 1960's. Charlie and his friends did drugs, had non-marital sex, and so on. They did things that christian-America, its government, and its media did not promote. To much of the American populous, christianly immoral people would be the ones to perform such murders. The media fed that; calling Charlie insane, immoral, even Satanic. This scared people. They were told to believe that Charlie used LSD, a drug that was under much scrutiny and propaganda in the news media in that time, to alter the mind of the younger individuals so they would do his evil bidding. The media related something like this to a cult. People then began believing that Charlie and his friends were a cult. One reporter made up the phrase "The Manson Family" and the rest of the media soon followed, as well as the people as a result.

I've seen the news reports about Charles Manson. I've seen the biased news specials in the 1960s. However, I've also seen Charlie speak his own words from behind bars; without the bias. Charlie kept his story straighter than the media did. Also, I noticed that the only voice not heard in all this is Charlie's; which has been muffed out by the media bias and fear tactics.

There was no Manson Family. Charlie did not manipulate anyone with LSD nor did he "order" any murders of celebrities. This "Manson Family" that the media, that you so relentlessly and fearlessly follow, speaks of was not a cult; not by definition, not by fact, nor by the account of Charlie himself.

If Charlie truly wanted there to be a cult called "The Manson Family", I think he would have been more straight forward about it as much as he told the truth and taught people to do the same.

How crazy is it to believe the friends of Charlie lied and went with the media's story to save their own asses? Charlie taught his friends that love overpowers fear and to tell the truth. I don't care what ignorant and closed minded people think but I think it makes sense that once Charlie's friends feared for their lives and the American justice system showed them no other way out; they then lied as a result of the fear so they could, at least, live.

Also, again:

I'm not saying that Charles Manson is any sort of guru or anything and not everything he says should be taken into consideration because everyone leads different lives. I'm just saying that there are some things that he's said that could really be learnt from that not a lot of people think about.

[KarlMarx1989]

Charles = 7 letters

Charlie = 7 letters

@ Rise Like Lions: To answer your response --
Charles Manson = 13 letters
Charlie = 7 letters
&
Charles = Not what he went by with just one name.

[KarlMarx1989]

Not for me. He's a totally insane psychopathic cult murderer who conspired to kill loads of fucking people.

He's scum and shoud hurry up and die.

This is the kind of closed-minded ignorance I've been referring to. Do some non-biased studying on this and come back.

[Invincible Summer]

@ Rise Like Lions: To answer your response --
Charles Manson = 13 letters
Charlie = 7 letters
&
Charles = Not what he went by with just one name.

Fair enough. I thought you meant Charles vs Charlie. I hate "short names" that aren't shorter

[Forward Union]

This is the kind of closed-minded ignorance I've been referring to. Do some non-biased studying on this and come back.


We should be open minded, but not so open minded our brains fall out.

Frankly I can find articles that defend anyones innocence. Even Hitlers. I don't see how trying to vindicate a nearly dead Cult Murderer is of any use for the Workers movement, and I can see how it damages our credibility to willingly associate with societal icons of murder, innocent or not.

[bcbm]

so why did his "friends" commit the murders?

[gorillafuck]

This is the kind of closed-minded ignorance I've been referring to. Do some non-biased studying on this and come back.
Non-biased studying would conclude that he was the leader of a group of people, which according to former members of this was a cult, that predicted an upcoming race war and partook in a series of brutal murders to try to incite this. This is the truth.


Hmm, after reviewing all I've said concerning whether or not Charlie really "ordered" or manipulated the murders; I've found that perhaps I'm not explaining it well enough:
Then why did his friends kill people?

[The Vegan Marxist]

From what I understood through Charlie Manson's interviews, the swastika does not represent the symbol that the fascists in Germany used, but rather the original, true meaning, which was of it's Egyptian origin meaning 'peace, good, etc.'

[Invincible Summer]

From what I understood through Charlie Manson's interviews, the swastika does not represent the symbol that the fascists in Germany used, but rather the original, true meaning, which was of it's Egyptian origin meaning 'peace, good, etc.'

I'm pretty sure it's more Hindu/Buddhist-based than Egyptian.


EDIT: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika

[Dimentio]

The swastika is actually an ancient sun symbol which has been used in most cultures.

http://reclaimtheswastika.com/ <---- Silly site, but it probably explains it better than I would.

[KarlMarx1989]

so why did his "friends" commit the murders?

Then why did his friends kill people?

Even Charlie didn't have an answer for that. In his interviews, he's explained that he didn't get involved in other peoples problems / affairs. He never asked them why, he never wanted to get involved in that.

[KarlMarx1989]

Frankly I can find articles that defend anyones innocence.
I'm not reading any non-biased articles about the situation. I'm watching the interviews and watching the biased special reports on Charlie. There are articles that are written by individuals from all sorts of different backgrounds. The national news corporations pick and choose what and what not to say to the public. Also, Charlie's was the only voice not heard in the trial. That is the missing piece of all this that I am listening to. Charlie seems to keep his story quite straight, in fact more straight than that of the media.

[KarlMarx1989]

I don't see how trying to vindicate a nearly dead Cult Murderer is of any use for the Workers movement
Partly, what is to be learnt here, is the fact that if you listen to the media and take what they say as fact; any kind of movement forward will fail. That is what the government want from the media: To stop progression from the current social norms and capitalism. They use fear to keep everyone pulled in to the christian, capitalist beliefs for comfort and safety. What they don't know is that they are making people more violent because people are so afraid.

However, originally I was just sharing some insight and hoping there were more people who had open minds around here. That, I can see, is still not true. Ive never heard of a successful movement made of people who never opened their minds. I suppose that is the other part of what I want to get across here.

[Dimentio]

It is funny that you use the word "profound" when discussing the mansonite quotes.

[KarlMarx1989]

Yes, I do believe that some things Charlie has said are quite profound and I've found the quotes I've used here helpful in my own life.

[Rjevan]

Partly, what is to be learnt here, is the fact that if you listen to the media and take what they say as fact; any kind of movement forward will fail. That is what the government want from the media: To stop progression from the current social norms and capitalism. They use fear to keep everyone pulled in to the christian, capitalist beliefs for comfort and safety. What they don't know is that they are making people more violent because people are so afraid.

However, originally I was just sharing some insight and hoping there were more people who had open minds around here. That, I can see, is still not true. Ive never heard of a successful movement made of people who never opened their minds. I suppose that is the other part of what I want to get across here.
I assure you that it is possible to build your own opinion about "Charlie" without blindly believing every single word the media says and still come to the conclusion that he is a disturbed loser. If you go for the complete opposite of what the media says this still doesn't mean that you have discovered the truth and are open-minded.
As FU says, being open-minded doesn't mean that you have to stop using your brain. Sorry to come up with lame Hitler comparisons but those statement of yours force me to do so:
Correction, he never killed anyone and he never instructed anyone to kill anyone... maybe instead of looking at Charlie through the media, perhaps you should look at his interview with your own eyes.

The first is is what many nazis claim about Hitler. And indeed: did you know that there is not one single order and no document signed by Hitler which contains any orders to eliminate Jews? So is he innocent now, where is mad friends acting on their own and poor Adi didn't know and wanted to keep out of their business? Of course not. Ever read/listened to some of his speeches and interviews where he talks about how much he loves and wants peace and that world peace is one of his main goals and further fairy tales e.g. about him loving and struggling for the working class? The fact that the media portrays him now the way it does shouldn't automatically mean that you have to buy his stuff and reject every word of criticism because the Christians are disgusted by nazi paganism and therefore demonize Hitler.

Finally I fail to understand what you find so fascinating about Manson. Obviously not his "dark side" since you believe he is innocent and misjudeged. This leaves the quotes which are far from being insightful and if you had posted them without saying who made them this would have nothing changed, in case you think we dislike them because they are by Manson. Really, if this kind of "wisdom" is all you find fascinating about him and is what you look for then read the bible or other religious texts, you'll be surprised what "insights" by "profound" people you get there. A great way to become an atheist and never again believe anybody who claims he is "enlightened" or more perfect than others, by the way.

[Vendetta]

I've watched his interviews, and all I can say is, he's a crazy motherfucker.

[KarlMarx1989]

The first is is what many nazis claim about Hitler. And indeed: did you know that there is not one single order and no document signed by Hitler which contains any orders to elliminate Jews? So is he innocent now, where is mad friends acting on their own and poor Adi didn't know and wanted to keep out of their business? Of course not. Ever read/listened to some of his speeches and interviews where he talks about how much he loves and wants peace and that world peace is one of his main goals and further fairy tales? The fact that the media portrays him now the way it does shouldn't automatically mean that you have to buy his stuff and reject every word of criticism because the Christians are disgusted by nazi paganism and therefore demonize Hitler.
Firstly, one major difference between Charles Manson and Adolf Hitler is that Charlie wasn't a leader of a nation. Whereas Adolf, Furher {sp: I'm no good at German} of Germany, had an entire cabinet and a military at his disposal. Also, with Adolf being a totalitarian; he controlled it all. The police and the military was not to act without his permission. That is the role of a totalitarian leader, no? Charlie was merely a roadie who tagged along with a bus full of hippies and did drugs with them. They didn't see him as a leader, although I will admit there were probably some amungst his friends who looked up to him. However, I would also go as far to say that they didn't look up to him in such an extreme manner. At least, not to such an extreme to kill when he says "kill." Also, I don't thing LSD has that much of a mind altering effect.


The fact that the media portrays him now the way it does shouldn't automatically mean that you have to buy his stuff and reject every word of criticism because the Christians are disgusted by nazi paganism and therefore demonize Hitler.Secondly, you seem to forget that Adolf Hitler was a christian himself. Many christian-Americans, as well as the government, didn't want Adolf to be catagorized under the same religion as they. So, the media said what they said of him so that they could influence the people from believing he was a christian at all.



Finally I fail to understand what you find so fascinating about Manson.
Lastly, fascinating thing about Charlie and his perdicament is the way the media influenced the people and the trial itself. The fact that he was already looked down at for not having a home growing up and being in jail for a portion of his life. Then he was even more bad in the eyes of the public just because he did a little bit of pot and LSD with the friends he met on the road. Even though he's said before that drugs are only bad when you misuse them, like many have done. He never got his voice heard in the case and the media had a part in all of it. This is because people's minds are closed and they rely on but one source for information and don't do any other kind of studying or looking-into.

[bcbm]

Even Charlie didn't have an answer for that. In his interviews, he's explained that he didn't get involved in other peoples problems / affairs. He never asked them why, he never wanted to get involved in that.

weird that he just happened to be taking people to the spots, and all the former cult members saying he was involved then.

[KarlMarx1989]

I've watched his interviews, and all I can say is, he's a crazy motherfucker.
Yeah, not a lot of people understand his satire.

He's a unique individual. That doesn't make him crazy. Has he had any random outlashes at anyone? Has he the need to be in a straightjacket when he comes out? He just comes out is handcuffs and shackels and they unlock those, don't they. And every inmate needs guards to watch the door.

[KarlMarx1989]

weird that he just happened to be taking people to the spots, and all the former cult members saying he was involved then.
Hmm...I think we've been here before:


How crazy is it to believe the friends of Charlie lied and went with the media's story to save their own asses? Charlie taught his friends that love overpowers fear and to tell the truth. I don't care what ignorant and closed minded people think but I think it makes sense that once Charlie's friends feared for their lives and the American justice system showed them no other way out; they then lied as a result of the fear so they could, at least, live.

[Pirate Utopian]

Let's say hypothetically (and yes it is hypothetically) Manson wasnt some acid-induced Jim Jones would be what makes him so appealing besides the nutter himself claiming to be "a media victim"?

I guess Britney Spears is pretty profound as well.
Maybe she has any half-assed hippy rubbish quotes that makes her sound like Ghandi on crystal meth.

[bcbm]

Hmm...I think we've been here before:

so the former cult members who weren't facing charges but said the same things were trying to save their own asses how, exactly?

[KarlMarx1989]

Let's say hypothetically...Manson wasnt some acid-induced Jim Jones would be
It sounds like you believe the opposite of the hypothetical. Whatever. I don't buy into ignorance. That is one reason I don't listen to much of the media bias.



what makes him so appealing besides the nutter himself claiming to be "a media victim"?

Besides all that, what makes me interested is that he didn't live such a dependant life that most of us do yet he still managed to survive as long as he did; until, of course the big murder trial. I bet any one of us lived on the streets, now, that person would end up dead. He seems like a pretty strong individual.

[KarlMarx1989]

so the former cult members who weren't facing charges but said the same things were trying to save their own asses how, exactly? Well, while I still don't believe this part of your bias:

cultIf they were known to be willingly involved in the "cult" that the media want on and on about, what do you think the people would think. Again, intimidation from the media and from the government was a factor. Whatever the case to each individual who didn't face charged to begin with, they lied under pressure and fear. It's an old trick, play the helpless victim. The media gave them that way out.

Eh, but what do I know? Afterall, I'm not a news reporter. I don't care if you refuse to believe what I say in contrary to the media.

[Pirate Utopian]

It sounds like you believe the opposite of the hypothetical. Whatever. I don't buy into ignorance. That is one reason I don't listen to much of the media bias.
It's not bias if you dont have anything to counter eye witness reports, confessions and numerous links to Manson and the killers.

Which you havent presented, you just went on to say it didnt count because they were "trying to save their arse".


Besides all that, what makes me interested is that he didn't live such a dependant life that most of us do yet he still managed to survive as long as he did; until, of course the big murder trial. I bet any one of us lived on the streets, now, that person would end up dead. He seems like a pretty strong individual.
Or is it some post-modern half-baked nihilist interest in edgy characters?

[bcbm]

i don't see why family members who now live under different names with most of their friends, etc having no knowledge of their history would feel the need to continue lying about something that happened forty years ago. i mean what have we got? dozens of family members and acquaintances giving the same story v. manson, clearly a very manipulative individual, claiming he is innocent? what would be the reason for such a massive conspiracy?

[KarlMarx1989]

It's not bias if you dont have anything to counter eye witness reports, confessions and numerous links to Manson and the killers.

Which you havent presented, you just went on to say it didnt count because they were "trying to save their arse".
You missed my point. My point being that Charlie was the only one who did not have a say in the trial yet everyone else in the world did. That sounds pretty biased to me.


Or is it some post-modern half-baked nihilist interest in edgy characters?
] \Post-modern: no. Half baked: never touched a drug in my life {besides alcolhol which I've gotten drunk but twice in my lifetime} so, you tell me. Nihilist: not quite. While I don't agree with many laws of any republic, I understand that most of the laws are quite reasonable and I've learned to live by them. I have no police record, just one with the FBI; as does everyone in the US. Interest in edgy characters: That one seems like a bit of satire. If not, quite misguided. I don't have a genuine interest in"edgy characters" but I do come across the stories of certain individuals who are potrayed in a negative manner. That does not mean that all, and certainly not most, of the people I find interesting or insightful are portrayed as such.

[KarlMarx1989]

i don't see why family members who now live under different names with most of their friends, etc having no knowledge of their history would feel the need to continue lying about something that happened forty years ago. i mean what have we got? dozens of family members and acquaintances giving the same story v. manson, clearly a very manipulative individual, claiming he is innocent?
Well, the news reporters and co. are your philosphers, aren't they? They're like modern day prophets, to me, in certain ways. It's as you say, in your opinion.

[bcbm]

you didn't answer my question


what would be the reason for such a massive conspiracy?

and yeah, the news reporters are totally my philosophers and prophets. this is why i'm on the radical left:rolleyes:

[KarlMarx1989]

you didn't answer my question
Ah, yes; the sarcastic question. My apologies, I took that question as rethorical.

Honestly, I don't know what the reason would be for such a "conspiracy." It seems that it is for your news reporters to decide...and we all know what they think about it.



yeah, the news reporters are totally my philosophers and prophets. this is why i'm on the radical left:rolleyes:
Sorry for my satire, but it does seem like you're buying into what the media has said about it because everything you've told me is what the media has told me about it. I don't hold the media's slant, on any story, to be very high in authority. If anyone, on the same side, were to tell me {practically word for word} the same thing; what would I think of it? Eh?

[bcbm]

Ah, yes; the sarcastic question. My apologies, I took that question as rethorical.

no, it was a serious question.


Honestly, I don't know what the reason would be for such a "conspiracy." It seems that it is for your news reporters to decide...and we all know what they think about it.

you believe such a conspiracy exists, but can't fathom any reason for it to exist? not very materialist.


Sorry for my satire, but it does seem like you're buying into what the media has said about it because everything you've told me is what the media has told me about it. I don't hold the media's slant, on any story, to be very high in authority. If anyone, on the same side, were to tell me {practically word for word} the same thing; what would I think of it? Eh?

just because the media says something doesn't mean its all a lie. beyond that, it isn't just "the media" but dozens of people who were members of the cult, and others familiar with the group or individuals within it. but you're taking the word of one man (who is at the center of it, with far more reason to lie than some of the others) and proposing everyone else is part of some massive conspiracy that doesn't appear to have any reason to exist? apply occam's razor here.

[KarlMarx1989]

you believe such a conspiracy exists, but can't fathom any reason for it to exist?
By definition, I wouldn't call it a conspiracy. I know what you mean when you use the word but I beg to differ. I don't believe that they all got together and started plotting ways to save their friends' asses and agaisnt Charlie. From what I understand, they were all at the trial; since it involved each of them in some way. If not, than I'm sure they were all aware of the trial and had seen it in some way before being interviewed by "media officials." When questioned, the next one after the first one questioned could've answered the same way the first one did and so on. Even the ones not charged. Again, I'm no media expert; I don't have a degree in media arts or any related profession.

just because the media says something doesn't mean its all a lie.I agree. I've know that not everything the mass media says is a lie. However, they are all competing for ratings. They only report the truth when it is scary or interesting to the public. They can't tell the truth all the time or they'd lose viewers to their competitors. It's almost as if the news is a product to them.

[Dean]

WTF!:confused:
Have you actually read Industrial Society and Its Future?

And for the record, I find that psychopaths tend to have incredibly accurate descriptions of society, albeit usually with fundamentally flawed wording and / or conclusions. They are profound because they are unique in that the speaker has no stake in the prevalent social norms. Those who have nothing to lose will always be the first to tell you the truth.

And as for the left-right dichotomy, Ted is clearly absurd in his doctrine. I'm sure Manson is, too. But there is still a valuable, external viewpoint to be gained from his words, and indeed a great many intelligent, mentally ill people.

[The Ungovernable Farce]

Besides all that, what makes me interested is that he didn't live such a dependant life that most of us do yet he still managed to survive as long as he did; until, of course the big murder trial. I bet any one of us lived on the streets, now, that person would end up dead. He seems like a pretty strong individual.
Lots and lots of people have lived on the streets. One of the many reasons to dislike capitalism is that it forces lots of people to be "pretty strong" and not live "a dependent life". What makes this particular racist nutjob any more interesting than any of the many people who've been homeless and yet not ended up preaching racial war? Why would anyone with an interest in equality have any time for such a massive racist?

[KarlMarx1989]

What makes this particular racist nutjob any more interesting than any of the many people who've been homeless and yet not ended up preaching racial war?
I've heard nothing from Manson about hating anyone that isn't white. Yes, he believed in a race war and might still. That doesn't make him racist. From what I understand, he was going from the point that white people didn't treat black people as equals back then. You know, all the segrigation and such. Not to mention the long history of racial eletism by white people going all the way back to the "founding" of North and South America.

I'm sure he could care less who won the race war he want on and on about.

What's interesting on top of that is:


the way the media influenced the people and the trial itself. The fact that he was already looked down at for not having a home growing up and being in jail for a portion of his life. Then he was even more bad in the eyes of the public just because he did a little bit of pot and LSD with the friends he met on the road. Even though he's said before that drugs are only bad when you misuse them, like many have done. He never got his voice heard in the case and the media had a part in all of it. This is because people's minds are closed and they rely on but one source for information and don't do any other kind of studying or looking-into.

[The Ungovernable Farce]

I've heard nothing from Manson about hating anyone that isn't white. Yes, he believed in a race war and might still. That doesn't make him racist. From what I understand, he was going from the point that white people didn't treat black people as equals back then. You know, all the segrigation and such. Not to mention the long history of racial eletism by white people going all the way back to the "founding" of North and South America.

I'm sure he could care less who won the race war he want on and on about.

Again (http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/manson/mansontestimony-w.html):

"Did he say what the black man would do once he was all by himself?"
"Well, according to Charlie, he would clean up the mess, just like he always has done. He is supposed to be the servant, see. He will clean up the mess that he made, that the white man made, and build the world back up a little bit, build the cities back up, but then he wouldn't know what to do with it, he couldn't handle it."
"Blackie couldn't handle it?"
"Yes, and this is when the Family would come out of the hole, and being that he would have completed the white man's karma, then he would no longer have this vicious want to kill."
"When you say 'he,' you mean Blackie?"
"Blackie then would come to Charlie and say, you know, 'I did my thing, I killed them all and, you know, I am tired of killing now. It is all over.' And Charlie would scratch his fuzzy head and kick him in the butt and tell him to go pick the cotton and go be a good nigger, and he would live happily ever after."

He was a fucking racist bigot nutjob. How much clearer could it be?

[Dooga Aetrus Blackrazor]

You keep talking about how the media is biased. Are you aware that all forums of information are media? If I go read Fox News, I will encounter bias. If I go read various leftist sources, I still might encounter bias.

You're putting random points together from videos and always interpreting them in the most favorable manner possible. You might as well be a defense attorney for the guy. If you're trying to suggest that "if we interpret ever piece of data in Manson's favor, to the point of making up convoluted explanations, we can theoretically give a possible scenario where Manson is innocent." This is how good liars get criminals off. They manipulate all the data to show that "the guy... could be innocent." There is a reason they use the phrase "reasonable doubt." The doubt has to be reasonable. Interpreting everything in Manson's favor is ridiculous.

It's quite clear he is guilty by his own words. He says he won't apologize or admit to anything because it will make mainstream society feel superior. Humans killing in wars and elsewhere will, upon seeing him admit his flaws, have someone to demean rather than look inward to themselves.

It's "very" obvious he did things that were illegal. He pleads "not guilty" because he doesn't think he did anything "wrong." It's got nothing to do with whether he committed the crimes.

It's really, really black and white. I don't understand your motivation for keeping up with this. I don't mean to be rude, but do you suffer from any mental health issues? Some people have very weird delusions they believe are true. Or are you distantly related to Manson, and you don't want to look at your genetics as "tainted." Or is a family member or friend somehow associated? Really, a person should openly admit when they're wrong rather than argue for something false. But I actually think you believe what you're saying.

Now this is complete honesty here. People from almost every political background know this guy has issues, and his actions resulted in the death of multiple people. It is also evident that he suffers from psychiatric problems despite being an eloquent speaker and fairly intelligent person.

Now most people say people who believe in "Flat Earth" or "9/11 conspiracies" are just stupid or bad at reasoning. I'm not sure that's true. You seem intelligent enough. I'd really recommend speaking to a doctor about this. You might as well be telling people "Charlie" is your invisible friend who tells you to burn things. That's how crazy what you're arguing is. While your view on the matter is harmless, something is wrong if you believe that.

If your doctor isn't worried, I'd recommend reading up on introductory logic and how to conduct research properly.

[Dimentio]

As for Manson's political ideals:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Order

Couldn't the OP at least idolise some left-wing nutcase?

[Ismail]

As for Manson's political ideals:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Order

Couldn't the OP at least idolise some left-wing nutcase?I'd actually prefer Jim Jones to Manson. At least Jones set up a commune in Guyana, tried to solicit Soviet aid (and got a Soviet Ambassador to visit the commune), and claimed to be a Communist to his followers.

He was also of course a manipulative cult leader who engaged in mass suicide, but yeah.

[Revy]

Have you actually read Industrial Society and Its Future?

And for the record, I find that psychopaths tend to have incredibly accurate descriptions of society, albeit usually with fundamentally flawed wording and / or conclusions. They are profound because they are unique in that the speaker has no stake in the prevalent social norms. Those who have nothing to lose will always be the first to tell you the truth.

And as for the left-right dichotomy, Ted is clearly absurd in his doctrine. I'm sure Manson is, too. But there is still a valuable, external viewpoint to be gained from his words, and indeed a great many intelligent, mentally ill people.

Unless your post was a typo, you said that what they DID wasn't wrong, you weren't talking about their beliefs, but their actions.

[Forward Union]

Even Charlie didn't have an answer for that. In his interviews, he's explained that he didn't get involved in other peoples problems / affairs. He never asked them why, he never wanted to get involved in that.

Was that the same interview where he said he could fly and regularly leaves the prison he is in?

[KarlMarx1989]

Prosecution witness Paul Watkins, age 20, testified about the meaning of Helter Skelter

I find this most interesting:


Prosecution witness
I don't seem to remember Charlie getting any say, or witnesses, in the trial. hmm..

[KarlMarx1989]

You keep talking about how the media is biased. Are you aware that all forums of information are media? If I go read Fox News, I will encounter bias. If I go read various leftist sources, I still might encounter bias.

I am well aware of this. Especially when I log into this forum.


If you're trying to suggest that "if we interpret ever piece of data in Manson's favor, to the point of making up convoluted explanations, we can theoretically give a possible scenario where Manson is innocent." This is how good liars get criminals off. They manipulate all the data to show that "the guy... could be innocent." There is a reason they use the phrase "reasonable doubt." The doubt has to be reasonable.
I understand it from the otehr side, as well. In fact, i can make sense of it from the other side. However, I have heard enough from the media {in general} to not take everything they say as fact until I look into it. What I am presenting is what I've found in contrast to the media's bias.


He was also of course a manipulative cult leader who engaged in mass suicide, but yeah.
Ignorance.


It's quite clear he is guilty by his own words. He says he won't apologize or admit to anything because it will make mainstream society feel superior.

He pleads "not guilty" because he doesn't think he did anything "wrong." It's got nothing to do with whether he committed the crimes.
He pleads not-guilty because he knows {or should I put that in quotes for you guys?} that he didn't involve himself in the murders or in his friends' other problems. But who knows I could be wrong. Because I'm not a news reporter. My findings are worth nothing because i didn't go to college for media arts or work for BBC or CNN or even FOX News. I don't care.


I don't understand your motivation for keeping up with this.
Ok, then at least understand this: You people listen to the mass media too much and too relentlessly. Next I suppose you're all going to tell me that Brian Warner caused the teens that shot up Columbine High School to do just that...:rolleyes:

People from almost every political background know this guy has issues, and his actions resulted in the death of multiple people. It is also evident that he suffers from psychiatric problems despite being an eloquent speaker and fairly intelligent person.I would have to disagree with the following:

his actions resulted in the death of multiple people.

While your view on the matter is harmless, something is wrong if you believe that.So, now I'm crazy? What is the matter with you? First of all, unless you have a degree in psychology or something relating to that; I don't think you have teh knowhow nor the jurisdiction to go as far to say I am psychotic. Especially since you have never met me in person.

I'd recommend reading up on introductory logic and how to conduct research properly.Conducting research requires looking at it from both sides, something you refuse to do, it seems, because you assume Charlie is "crazy."

[KarlMarx1989]

Was that the same interview where he said he could fly and regularly leaves the prison he is in?
That means nothing. So he believes in a spiritual world... Many christians believe in heaven and hell yet people understand what they're saying about something serious.

[un_person]

Yeah, not a lot of people understand his satire.

He's a unique individual. That doesn't make him crazy. Has he had any random outlashes at anyone? Has he the need to be in a straightjacket when he comes out? He just comes out is handcuffs and shackels and they unlock those, don't they. And every inmate needs guards to watch the door.


No random outlashes? I believe that manson did try to stab the prosecutor with an ink pen. I'd call that a random outlash. He's just a horrible, terrible, individual who sees himself as some sort of philosopher.

[The Ungovernable Farce]

Ok, then at least understand this: You people listen to the mass media too much and too relentlessly. Next I suppose you're all going to tell me that Brian Warner caused the teens that shot up Columbine High School to do just that...:rolleyes:
Have you based your entire political outlook on being a Marilyn Manson fan? Be honest.

[KarlMarx1989]

Have you based your entire political outlook on being a Marilyn Manson fan?
No. I've based my political outlook upon observation of my father's actions growing up. I became a Marilyn Manson fan when I was 17.

[KarlMarx1989]

No random outlashes? I believe that manson did try to stab the prosecutor with an ink pen. I'd call that a random outlash.
Okay, maybe not 'no' random outlashes. In that, you've bested me. However in this, I still beg to differ:


sees himself as some sort of philosopher.

[un_person]

True. philosopher probably wasn't the best word to use there.

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

I can't believe I am reading this. I know this is revleft but the mans a mentally ill bigoted murderer , get real folks.

[gorillafuck]

I'm curious, does he deny his extremely well established links to the murders? Because if he doesn't than it would be even more obvious that he ordered them.


That means nothing.
Claiming to be able to fly and claiming to regularly leaving the prison he's in is quite the indicator of insanity.

[KarlMarx1989]

True. philosopher probably wasn't the best word to use there.
It's obvious he is no philosopher but my point was that he also does not see himself as one.


does he deny his extremely well established links to the murders? Because if he doesn't than it would be even more obvious that he ordered them.
He's said numerous times that he didn't get involved in the murders. He said that a friend came up to him and told him that she'd murdered someone and he told her he didn't want to hear it.

[KarlMarx1989]

Claiming to be able to fly and claiming to regularly leaving the prison he's in is quite the indicator of insanity.
Actually, it sounds like quite the indicator of spirituality outside of mainstream religion. Do you think every hippie in the 60's was insane for believing in similar spiritual realms?

[The Ungovernable Farce]

Actually, it sounds like quite the indicator of spirituality outside of mainstream religion. Do you think every hippie in the 60's was insane for believing in similar spiritual realms?
As a materialist, I believe that any hippie who thinks they can fly is completely wrong, yes. Do you really believe that all those little biscuits turn into Jesus every Sunday? If not, then what makes Manson's delusions any more valid than the delusions of all those Catholics?

[Invincible Summer]

I understand that defending Charles Manson is sort of "counter-culture" but it's pretty pointless. It really doesn't achieve anything other than making you seem like an apologist for psychos. Why are you trying to "empathize" with people who have serious anti-social behavioural problems?

I guess it's good that you're thinking critically about how the media frames certain issues, but why'd you have to pick this?

[Small Geezer]

Charlie's right on, man.

[gorillafuck]

Actually, it sounds like quite the indicator of spirituality outside of mainstream religion. Do you think every hippie in the 60's was insane for believing in similar spiritual realms?
Did they all believe they could fly?

[KarlMarx1989]

Do you really believe that all those little biscuits turn into Jesus every Sunday? If not, then what makes Manson's delusions any more valid than the delusions of all those Catholics?
No. Nothing. Spirituality is spirituality, whether or not it is mainstream religious. I don't believe in either, myself. However, I'm not just going to attack, at random, anyone with a spiritual or religious belief. I save that for when it's imposed on me.


why'd you have to pick this?
It's a pivotal point in American history that changed a lot.

You see, I've been working on this project about how America is the way it is. You know, with the highest rate of murder and such. I'm pretty much looking into how the majority Americans got to be so violent and arrogant.



Did they all believe they could fly?
I don't know, did they? Or maybe that's up to your mass media leaders to decide. Personally I've never met every hippie who ever lived. However, among the ones I have met and seen on TV from the 60s; who were talking about their spiritual beliefs, there were those who do and those who don't. I'd think that's how it is with all hippies.

[Invincible Summer]

It's a pivotal point in American history that changed a lot.

You see, I've been working on this project about how America is the way it is. You know, with the highest rate of murder and such. I'm pretty much looking into how the majority Americans got to be so violent and arrogant.


Convicting Charles Manson is a "pivotal point in American history?" How about Jefferey Dahmer, or Ted Bundy? Or maybe Ed Gacy.


Please explain your thesis. I really am not following.

[Os Cangaceiros]

You see, I've been working on this project about how America is the way it is. You know, with the highest rate of murder and such. I'm pretty much looking into how the majority Americans got to be so violent and arrogant.

And you're looking at the Manson family to explain this "phenomenon"?

[Os Cangaceiros]

Manson was a scumbag, by the way. I don't find any value in his supposed words of wisdom...I've known that society is messed up for some time now, and I don't need some p.o.s. like Manson to reiterate that for me. :rolleyes:

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

No. Nothing. Spirituality is spirituality, whether or not it is mainstream religious. I don't believe in either, myself. However, I'm not just going to attack, at random, anyone with a spiritual or religious belief. I save that for when it's imposed on me.
It's a pivotal point in American history that changed a lot.

You see, I've been working on this project about how America is the way it is. You know, with the highest rate of murder and such. I'm pretty much looking into how the majority Americans got to be so violent and arrogant.

I don't know, did they? Or maybe that's up to your mass media leaders to decide. Personally I've never met every hippie who ever lived. However, among the ones I have met and seen on TV from the 60s; who were talking about their spiritual beliefs, there were those who do and those who don't. I'd think that's how it is with all hippies.

The man has a swastika carved onto his head and saw himself as fighting a racial war you stupid fuck.

[KarlMarx1989]

How about Jefferey Dahmer, or Ted Bundy? Or maybe Ed Gacy. Indeed. What of them? Do you think they were any less guilty as you and your media say Charlie is?

Please explain your thesis

you're looking at the Manson family to explain this "phenomenon"?
This particular case was influenced, quite heavily, by the US media. Before the case could even get under way, the media had already been spreading propaganda like a pandemic about Charlie. Whether or not he was guilty, he was not given a fair trial because of the media's propaganda. Charlie was a scapegoat, to put it simply. For what? Who knows? The media never really likes to tell about what's really going on.

I don't find any value in his supposed words of wisdom
...and?

The man has a swastika carved onto his head and saw himself as fighting a racial war you stupid fuck.
Gee. What a strong argument. Now I really believe I'm wrong... :rolleyes:
Nice display of defensive angst.
Come back when you've "cooled down" a bit and have stopped speaking like a juvenile punk

From what I understood through Charlie Manson's interviews, the swastika does not represent the symbol that the fascists in Germany used, but rather the original, true meaning, which was of it's Egyptian origin meaning 'peace, good, etc.'

I'm pretty sure it's more Hindu/Buddhist-based than Egyptian.

[KarlMarx1989]

Side note:

If anyone wants to go into another circle to go back to Charlie's spiritual beliefs, consider the following:

Was Martin Luther King Jr. insane for being christian and believing in a "promise land?"

Should the millions of jews, who died in the holocaust, have
hurr[ied] up and die[d]. because they believed in a god and a heaven and a hell?

What about all of the hippies in the 1960's who believed in similar spiritual realms? :
Do you think every hippie in the 60's was insane for believing in similar spiritual realms?

[Kléber]

Was Martin Luther King Jr. insane for being christian and believing in a "promise land?"Yes.


Do you think every hippie in the 60's was insane for believing in similar spiritual realms? Yes. Nothing is spiritual. Show me something "spiritual." All I see is material.

You can believe in gods/heaven and still be a good revolutionary communist, but superstitious conjecture is no basis for a political program.

[Os Cangaceiros]

Charles Manson was also a rapist. Did you know that?

[KarlMarx1989]

Quote:
Was Martin Luther King Jr. insane for being christian and believing in a "promise land?"
Yes.
So, by that logic, nothing Martin Luther King Jr. said was credible since he was insane; correct?

Charles Manson was also a rapist. Did you know that?Yeah, that's a pretty common rumor.

[Kléber]

So, by that logic, nothing Martin Luther King Jr. said was credible since he was insane; correct?A lot of what he said was right on.. and Manson might have said some nice positive things here or there. But a "promised land" and Helter Skelter are neither rational nor do they offer solutions to the historical and social issues confronting the working class.

King tried to build a populist mass movement around social reform, whereas Manson's plans to influence society were sexist and racist

[KarlMarx1989]

Manson's plans to influence society were sexist and racistIs that so? How?

[#FF0000]

Is that so? How?

Helter Skelter you dope.

[bcbm]

you and your media

i don't think anyone here exercises any level of control over the media.

[KarlMarx1989]

Helter SkelterWhile I still don't see how sexism influenced Charlie's "plans", I can dig out some reason for any of you to believe he was racist. However, I have still heard of nothing from Charlie, himself, about being racist. It is no secret that people of Caucasian and African descent were quite tense toward one another in the early 1900's. It is also no secret that Charlie did indulge in "conspiracy theories" and such. Charlie thought he was right, based on what he'd seen growing up, and took his theory very seriously. I don't think he was choosing sides. I think that he would've come out form hiding, after Helter Skelter, and did whatever it was he was planning to do with the surviving majority; whoever would happen to survive between "blacks" and "whites." But, again, I'm not a news reporter or on the editing staff for some news corporation. So....I'm probably wrong, right media disciples?

i don't think anyone here exercises any level of control over the media. I don't think so either. I, really, meant it in more of a sense like; someone and his / her mother or his / her hero or something along those lines. No ownership.

[KarlMarx1989]

I'd really recommend speaking to a doctor about this. You might as well be telling people "Charlie" is your invisible friend who tells you to burn things.
you stupid fuck.
you dope. Hmm, a lot of defensiveness in the last couple of pages. If we are all quite done being immature and defensive, now...we can continue in more of a mature, civilized, and educated manner; yes?

[Kléber]

While I still don't see how sexism influenced Charlie's "plans"He believed African-American men were pacified by access to white women gained through desegregation and this pacification was preventing the race war so he would lure the "young love" (women) out of the cities and into his entourage using his album. The lonely blacks would spontaneously redirect the anger of their unrequited love into a race war and eventually kill the whites except for Manson's group.

His organization was definitely very sexist, women couldn't do anything but follow his leadership and commands. Was he even elected?

When the album deal fell through, it appears he tried to kill his would-be producer, Terry Melcher ("Terry Melcher came to me!") and instead just killed everyone in his house, possibly with the intention of blaming it on black people and triggering the race war. If Charlie was innocent, what is your explanation for the Tate-LaBianca killings?

[KarlMarx1989]

He believed African-American men were pacified by access to white women gained through desegregation and this pacification was preventing the race war so he would lure the "young love" (women) out of the cities and into his entourage using his album. The lonely blacks would spontaneously redirect the anger of their unrequited love into a race war and eventually kill the whites except for Manson's group.

His organization was definitely very sexist, women couldn't do anything but follow his leadership and commands. Was he even elected?

When the album deal fell through, it appears he tried to kill his would-be producer, Terry Melcher ("Terry Melcher came to me!") and instead just killed everyone in his house, possibly with the intention of blaming it on black people and triggering the race war.Did you get all this from prosecution witness accounts in the trial?

If Charlie was innocent, what is your explanation for the Tate-LaBianca killings? Hmm...it seems to me we've been here before.....


so why did his "friends" commit the murders?
Then why did his friends kill people?
Even Charlie didn't have an answer for that. In his interviews, he's explained that he didn't get involved in other peoples problems / affairs. He never asked them why, he never wanted to get involved in that.

[Kléber]

So why did they kill those people and then say Manson told them to do it?

[Wanted Man]

So why did they kill those people and then say Manson told them to do it?

Oh, you and your media! :lol:

Seriously though, it seems like a kind of pointless discussion. No matter what you bring up, our admirer of "Charlie" will just be like, "Yeah, well, those are just prosecution witnesses, and it's all in the media, who are clearly biased. Why? I don't know, I'm not a media expert, you find out!"

He sounds like a bit of a troll, our Mr Biblia Sacra. :rolleyes:

[KarlMarx1989]

So why did they kill those people and then say Manson told them to do it? I think I've heard this before too, but where...?

weird that he just happened to be taking people to the spots, and all the former cult members saying he was involved then. That's right, silly me. Again, my response...

How crazy is it to believe the friends of Charlie lied and went with the media's story to save their own asses? Charlie taught his friends that love overpowers fear and to tell the truth. I don't care what ignorant and closed minded people think but I think it makes sense that once Charlie's friends feared for their lives and the American justice system showed them no other way out; they then lied as a result of the fear so they could, at least, live.

so the former cult members who weren't facing charges but said the same things were trying to save their own asses how, exactly? If they were known to be willingly involved in the "cult" that the media want on and on about, what do you think the people would think. Again, intimidation from the media and from the government was a factor. Whatever the case to each individual who didn't face charged to begin with, they lied under pressure and fear. It's an old trick, play the helpless victim. The media gave them that way out.

Eh, but what do I know? Afterall, I'm not a news reporter. I don't care if you refuse to believe what I say in contrary to the media.

[Wanted Man]

I think I've heard this before too, but where...?
That's right, silly me. Again, my response...

People keep repeating themselves because your responses don't really meaningfully address their arguments at all, you fucking tube.

[Kléber]

How crazy is it to believe the friends of Charlie lied and went with the media's story to save their own asses?
So they did not actually do those murders, those murders were just framed on them?

[bcbm]

I don't think so either. I, really, meant it in more of a sense like; someone and his / her mother or his / her hero or something along those lines.

this is a website for revolutionary leftists. every individual who has responded to you here is a revolutionary leftist. i'm going to go out on a limb and sincerely doubt that they're very fond of the media, let alone respect it as their "mother/hero." :glare:

[KarlMarx1989]

it seems like a kind of pointless discussion. No matter what you bring upI'm going to go ahead and work around your arrogance and respond only to the statement you've made that's the closest to being mature and serious.

I can tell you haven't read much of this discussion or you'd know that I've addressed questions like this numerous times before:

The media demonized Charlie and his friends. Think of the ideal christian-American "morals" of the 1950's and 1960's. Charlie and his friends did drugs, had non-marital sex, and so on. They did things that christian-America, its government, and its media did not promote. To much of the American populous, christianly immoral people would be the ones to perform such murders. The media fed that; calling Charlie insane, immoral, even Satanic. This scared people. They were told to believe that Charlie used LSD, a drug that was under much scrutiny and propaganda in the news media in that time, to alter the mind of the younger individuals so they would do his evil bidding. The media related something like this to a cult. People then began believing that Charlie and his friends were a cult. One reporter made up the phrase "The Manson Family" and the rest of the media soon followed, as well as the people as a result.

I've seen the news reports about Charles Manson. I've seen the biased news specials in the 1960s. However, I've also seen Charlie speak his own words from behind bars; without the bias. Charlie kept his story straighter than the media did. Also, I noticed that the only voice not heard in all this is Charlie's; which has been muffed out by the media bias and fear tactics.

There was no Manson Family. Charlie did not manipulate anyone with LSD nor did he "order" any murders of celebrities. This "Manson Family" that the media, that you so relentlessly and fearlessly follow, speaks of was not a cult; not by definition, not by fact, nor by the account of Charlie himself.

If Charlie truly wanted there to be a cult called "The Manson Family", I think he would have been more straight forward about it as much as he told the truth and taught people to do the same.

How crazy is it to believe the friends of Charlie lied and went with the media's story to save their own asses? Charlie taught his friends that love overpowers fear and to tell the truth. I don't care what ignorant and closed minded people think but I think it makes sense that once Charlie's friends feared for their lives and the American justice system showed them no other way out; they then lied as a result of the fear so they could, at least, live.

I don't see how trying to vindicate a nearly dead Cult Murderer is of any use for the Workers movement Partly, what is to be learnt here, is the fact that if you listen to the media and take what they say as fact; any kind of movement forward will fail. That is what the government want from the media: To stop progression from the current social norms and capitalism. They use fear to keep everyone pulled in to the christian, capitalist beliefs for comfort and safety. What they don't know is that they are making people more violent because people are so afraid.

However, originally I was just sharing some insight and hoping there were more people who had open minds around here. That, I can see, is still not true. Ive never heard of a successful movement made of people who never opened their minds. I suppose that is the other part of what I want to get across here.

I fail to understand what you find so fascinating about Manson. fascinating thing about Charlie and his perdicament is the way the media influenced the people and the trial itself. The fact that he was already looked down at for not having a home growing up and being in jail for a portion of his life. Then he was even more bad in the eyes of the public just because he did a little bit of pot and LSD with the friends he met on the road. Even though he's said before that drugs are only bad when you misuse them, like many have done. He never got his voice heard in the case and the media had a part in all of it. This is because people's minds are closed and they rely on but one source for information and don't do any other kind of studying or looking-into.

It's not bias if you dont have anything to counter eye witness reports, confessions and numerous links to Manson and the killers.

Which you havent presented, you just went on to say it didnt count because they were "trying to save their arse". You missed my point. My point being that Charlie was the only one who did not have a say in the trial yet everyone else in the world did. That sounds pretty biased to me.
it does seem like you're buying into what the media has said about it because everything you've told me is what the media has told me about it. I don't hold the media's slant, on any story, to be very high in authority. If anyone, on the same side, were to tell me {practically word for word} the same thing; what would I think of it? Eh?

just because the media says something doesn't mean its all a lie. I agree. I've know that not everything the mass media says is a lie. However, they are all competing for ratings. They only report the truth when it is scary or interesting to the public. They can't tell the truth all the time or they'd lose viewers to their competitors. It's almost as if the news is a product to them.

You keep talking about how the media is biased. Are you aware that all forums of information are media? If I go read Fox News, I will encounter bias. If I go read various leftist sources, I still might encounter bias.I am well aware of this. Especially when I log into this forum.

[KarlMarx1989]

So they did not actually do those murders, those murders were just framed on them? No, they committed the murders. However, since there was a way out of the death penalty, since that was the punishment at the time of the trial, they took that way out out of fear.

this is a website for revolutionary leftists. every individual who has responded to you here is a revolutionary leftist. i'm going to go out on a limb and sincerely doubt that they're very fond of the media, let alone respect it as their "mother/hero."Then why have I heard everyone of you practically quote the media concerning the Charles Manson case.

After reading your responses to the case, I can tell that it is not of very much importance to any of you; therefore you haven't done much research on it much further passed the evening news or what the modern day news reporters say about the reports of the 60's concerning this case.

[gorillafuck]

KarlMarx1989, why do you blindly trust everything Charles Manson says yet also try to justify anything he says that doesn't make him seem like the great philosopher that you view him as?

[KarlMarx1989]

you fucking tube. Oh, gee. What a surprise. More resorts to immaturity and defensiveness. That is all I have to say about that...

[The Ungovernable Farce]

Please tell me you're just trolling and not actually this mad.

[KarlMarx1989]

why do you blindly trust everything Charles Manson says yet also try to justify anything he says that doesn't make him seem like the great philosopher that you view him as?That doesn't sound like what I've been doing in my study. I have listened to the media bias, the trial witnesses (all of which were of the prosecution), and the bias of the interviews. However, I have also looked into it on much more levels than that. I've watched all the interviews without the bias, looked at the fact that Charlie didn't have any say in the trial, read biased articles form both sides, and have watched several documentaries about it; all of which were biased, of course. I have also noticed, however, the media's bias in all stories on the television and the fact that the news media is no more than a race for ratings. I take a lot more into consideration when I do research on things like this. At least, a lot more past the evening news...

[gorillafuck]

That doesn't sound like what I've been doing in my study. I have listened to the media bias, the trial witnesses (all of which were of the prosecution), and the bias of the interviews. However, I have also looked into it on much more levels than that. I've watched all the interviews without the bias, looked at the fact that Charlie didn't have any say in the trial, read biased articles form both sides, and have watched several documentaries about it; all of which were biased, of course. I have also noticed, however, the media's bias in all stories on the television and the fact that the news media is no more than a race for ratings. I take a lot more into consideration when I do research on things like this. At least, a lot more past the evening news...
Post your sources.

[KarlMarx1989]

Please tell me you're just trolling and not actually this mad. I can tell that all of you are now resorting to belittling everything I say. Hmmm...I haven't seen that anywhere before...:rolleyes:

You all know fully well that I am not insane nor that I am any kind of troll. The American mentality that violence is the solution and to be closed-minded is destroying the country where I live. Yet no one will admit it or even address it. I can't believe that it has come to the conclusion that I am crazy for trying to, at least, address it.

[bailey_187]

Actually, it sounds like quite the indicator of spirituality outside of mainstream religion. Do you think every hippie in the 60's was insane for believing in similar spiritual realms?

Yes. Or on drugs.

[bcbm]

Then why have I heard everyone of you practically quote the media concerning the Charles Manson case.

do you mean the news media, books, what?


After reading your responses to the case, I can tell that it is not of very much importance to any of you; therefore you haven't done much research on it much further passed the evening news or what the modern day news reporters say about the reports of the 60's concerning this case.

i've read a bit about it and searched a bit more when you started going on about the topic. it basically just reinforced that manson was behind it and is a wingnut. obviously the media played the whole thing up, at the time and in the present, but that doesn't mean everything they've said is false, and certainly the fact that practically every person involved in manon's "family" gives the same story is a pretty big clue that they aren't all lying to "save their asses." indeed, it makes much more sense that your boy charlie is lying to save his ass. again, just apply occam's razor here.

[Invincible Summer]

Indeed. What of them? Do you think they were any less guilty as you and your media say Charlie is?

My media? Well since I'm a bougie now, I'll spend my billions on funding the revolution, and paying Revleft's server fees. :lol:

Anyways, my point is that these people were convicted of clearly and factually murdering/dismembering/cannibalizing/etc innocent people to satisfy their psychological disorders. There's no way around that. It's not some bourgeois-media conspiracy. Sometimes, the bourgeois media does tell the truth, hate to break it to you.

Are you going to try and excuse the actions of rapists and child molesters as people who are just "misunderstood by the public" due to "brainwashing of corporate media?"


This particular case was influenced, quite heavily, by the US media. Before the case could even get under way, the media had already been spreading propaganda like a pandemic about Charlie.

Propaganda? You mean the fact that he pretty much brainwashed people into following him and murdering other people? I hate capitalist media as much as the next lefty, but sometimes it reports the truth, especially since "if it bleeds, it leads."
And to be honest, with psychos like Charles Manson, Dahmer, etc, I don't even think it's possible to give them a "fair trial," since they're so fucked in the head.


Whether or not he was guilty, he was not given a fair trial because of the media's propaganda. Charlie was a scapegoat, to put it simply. For what? Who knows? The media never really likes to tell about what's really going on.
Basically you're saying you don't know what the fuck you're saying? He's a scapegoat, but you dont know what for, because the evil capitalist media is covering it up? God... you should partner up with Alex Jones.

[Pirate Utopian]

KM1989, do you believe he didnt do it?
You keep talking about his unfair trial, despite the countless evidence against him.

How about talking about somebody that did have an unfair trail and is insightful like Peltier or Mumia?

[KarlMarx1989]

Post your sources.
Online Sources:
http://history1900s.about.com/od/1960s/p/charlesmanson.htm
http://www.chesterdcampbell.com/Articles.htm
http://www.charliemanson.com/rolling-stone-1.htm
http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/manson/manson.html
http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/manson/mansonaccount.html
http://www.religioustolerance.org/dc_charl.htm
http://www.bookrags.com/essay-2005/11/26/122752/34
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Manson

Offline sources: Various interviews, documentaries, and reports that aren't on YouTube and news paper articles and such. News corporations who have done reports on Charles Manson that I have observed, current and past: NBC, MSNBC, CBS, FOX News, CNN, and BBC.

[KarlMarx1989]

wzIM4GGS1pITc8lK5UhBjEb2zeXpriT0ojEEnL8AWuZ8NiT7uM N4beA1xpe57nygd0http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74JgGH_gCA0

[KarlMarx1989]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uBH6U8Mf7kQhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NxSoUlEfcFQhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2X8LlHo2CL8http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mx_QP-bevwYhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6IK9lpRtdTohttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ywz3wU86CO8http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7m33E3HZes

[KarlMarx1989]

Full and with bias:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECKd9-tXO6Ahttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ds-GMAl623ghttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XeoT_M-NUHshttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7gx9Nq1H6BIhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7JwQcW5sww
Without bias:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kuzla1IYUGAhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c48s-zkpFv8http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XA1a0oJZiNE

[KarlMarx1989]

do you mean the news media, books, what?Well, most people listen to the Television news media. However, the corporations that broadcast on TV have expanded online and have many affiliates.

[KarlMarx1989]

My media? Well since I'm a bougie nowNot at all. Believing in what the media tells you doesn't mean that you're bourgeois. It just means you...well, believe in what the media tells you. I didn't call you bourgeois.


It's not some bourgeois-media conspiracy. Sometimes, the bourgeois media does tell the truth, hate to break it to you.I never said that they never tell the truth. I believe they do tell the truth...when it gets them ratings.


Are you going to try and excuse the actions of rapists and child molesters as people who are just "misunderstood by the public" due to "brainwashing of corporate media?"No. That is, entirely, a different subject.

I hate capitalist media as much as the next lefty, but sometimes it reports the truth, especially since "if it bleeds, it leads."Like I said, I do believe there are times when the media tells the truth. However, this is a case in which I doubt they did such a thing.

to be honest, with psychos like Charles Manson, Dahmer, etc, I don't even think it's possible to give them a "fair trial," since they're so fucked in the head.They can still give them a fair trial. I am aware that the US Government doesn't exactly live up to its word, i.e.: "Innocent until proven guilty" and I can say this is a case in which they did not.

Basically you're saying you don't know what the fuck you're saying?No, I am saying the media tends to not tell the real news in place for something interesting so they can get ratings. I don't really know much about what else was going on in that time besides the "war" in Viet Nam and all the protests (riots). Look, I'm not an expert on the US's 1960s. I don't have a degree in it so I can't really say so, either.

[KarlMarx1989]

do you believe he didnt do it?
I believe that LSD doesn't have the power to "control" anyone's minds and that Charlie didn't get involved with his friends' problems.

You keep talking about his unfair trial, despite the countless evidence against him.
I've read a lot about how Charlie never got a say in the trial. No witnesses, no questioning, nothing. The evidence was piled so heavily against him because of this.

How about talking about somebody that did have an unfair trail and is insightful like Peltier or Mumia? Believe it or not, over the last couple of months, I've begun research on Leonard Peltier and Mumia Abu-Jamal. They will become a part of my project, after all.

[bailey_187]

you are a fucking idiot fdam

[Pirate Utopian]

I've read a lot about how Charlie never got a say in the trial. No witnesses, no questioning, nothing. The evidence was piled so heavily against him because of this.
Or because he did it.


Believe it or not, over the last couple of months, I've begun research on Leonard Peltier and Mumia Abu-Jamal. They will become a part of my project, after all
Mentioned next to a raving flashhead who proclaimed race war. Fantastic.
There are hundreds, literally hundreds of political prisoners in the USA far more respectful than Charles fuckin' Manson.

[KarlMarx1989]

you are a fucking idiot fdam Gee, thanks for the immature insight. I see everything your way, now. :rolleyes: Yeah, grow out of your teenage angst and come back.

Mentioned next to a raving flashhead who proclaimed race war. Fantastic.
There are hundreds, literally hundreds of political prisoners in the USA far more respectful than Charles fuckin' Manson. ...and thank you for the ignorant insight.

The point to this particular case with Charles Manson is that because of the media, people just like you {plural} assumed Charlie was guilty; even though he wasn't given a fair trial because of the media.

Do you see where I'm going with this? I'm going to do what you all do and assume, how's that? No, you don't...It is the media. The media is making things worse. Yet, ironically, it is people like you that keep feeding it and making it more influential.

Charles Manson did not get a fair trial. How does an unfair trial not equal an unfair trial. An unfair trial is an unfair trial: Period! At least, that's how it is to me. Am I wrong in saying that?

[#FF0000]

Charles Manson was a schizophrenic. Confirm/Deny

[KarlMarx1989]

Charles Manson was a schizophrenic. Confirm/Deny
Reason: I have yet to see some documents. I have looked everywhere for documents on this and all I've found is the assumption that he is by the media and individual sources.

[KarlMarx1989]

@ loveschach: However, if you can show me the documents; I could quickly change my mind.. I would also appreciate it because I have been looking for that for a little over a year, now.

[HEAD ICE]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Order

you still haven't responded to this

[KarlMarx1989]

By the looks of it, I've already grown passed most of those which whom have posted here:

I'd really recommend speaking to a doctor about this. You might as well be telling people "Charlie" is your invisible friend who tells you to burn things.

you stupid fuck.

you dope.

you fucking tube.

you are a fucking idiot fdam
I mean, come on; children resort to name calling. Why do any of you have to? It's immature and it doesn't help your argument at all. In fact, it makes you seem uneducated.

You know, most parents raise their voices at their children when they know they're wrong. Now, I know that you have a strong argument but you can't just go losing your temper so easily if you you truly believe you are right.

[KarlMarx1989]

Universal Order is the name of a National Socialist "operational front" founded by James Mason. Growing out of the National Socialist Liberation Front, Mason founded the order in the early 1980s following the advice of Charles Manson, leader of the mass-murder cult "The Family". Not only did Manson suggest the name, but he also designed the logo used by the group, a swastika superimposed over the scales of justice.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:UniversalOrderlogo.jpg

As its Leaders it recognized a lineage of Adolf Hitler, George Lincoln Rockwell, Joseph Tommasi, and Charles Manson. It later focused later on presenting a National Socialist perspective on the paranormal.

Universal Order is not an actual organization (in the sense of having official members and a headquarters), "but a philosophical concept or a state of mind". Mason and collaborators "found it necessary and desirable to give our certain line of thought a distinguishing title so as to at least attempt [to] separate it from the more conservative takes on National Socialism."

The findings about Charlie are from a book called The Manson File (pp. 139-147), written by Nikolas Schreck; who was a supporter of Charles Manson and a supporter of National Socialism (Nazism).

Interesting. :lol:

[Dooga Aetrus Blackrazor]

I mean, come on; children resort to name calling. Why do any of you have to? It's immature and it doesn't help your argument at all. In fact, it makes you seem uneducated.

You know, most parents raise their voices at their children when they know they're wrong. Now, I know that you have a strong argument but you can't just go losing your temper so easily if you you truly believe you are right.

This is an off-topic question. Are you a Scientologist, by any chance?

Also, in the Tate murders it is said Manson cut the phone line. What is the explanation for this, exactly? Was he trying to do routine maintenance? Why did Manson provide directions to the houses of the people who were murdered? Why is Manson being denied parole so many times?

[KarlMarx1989]

Are you a Scientologist, by any chance?Fair enough: answering an off-topic question with an off topic question. Atheistically irreligious. That is my answer to that.


Also, in the Tate murders it is said Manson cut the phone line.Yeah, that's another pretty common rumor.


Why did Manson provide directions to the houses of the people who were murdered?Or did he at all? Remember, Charlie got no say in the trial.

Why is Manson being denied parole so many times? Come on. Do I really have to answer with yet another obvious response? *sigh* The media...? Maybe...? You should know better by now...:laugh:

[Dooga Aetrus Blackrazor]

I wish I had a single phrase I could use to refute every point someone makes.

"Have you murdered someone, Sir?"
"No, not at all."
"I saw you stabbing her. In fact, you're still doing it."
"No I'm not. The media has being beguiling you."
"I'm quite sure you've committed a crime."
"THE MEDIA!"

[KarlMarx1989]

Well, then. Did you see him give his "followers" LSD and commanding them? Did you see Charlie pull the phone wire at Ms. Tate's home? Did you see any of the murders occur?

[KarlMarx1989]

No evidence at the trial was given for any of that. They kept Charlie quiet while the prosecution said more and more about him

[Axle]

What a weird goddamn thread. Charles Manson gets defended for saying some kinda-sorta deep shit.

While we're at it, can we absove Tim McVeigh because he suffered the death penalty?

For fuck's sake...

[Ismail]

If someone wants to say that Manson got an unfair trial or whatever then, well, whatever, but I fail to see how Manson was a leftist. That, IMO, is the most important thing here. This isn't Crime Library (http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/serial_killers/notorious/manson/murder_1.html). What makes Manson worthy of supporting (or is relevant to leftist history) inasmuch as Marxists and Anarchists are concerned?

[Bilan]

He didn't say anything prophetic, it was just a wee bit clever, but not especially clever. Just a bit.
And besides, he said a lot of ridiculous, stupid things.
You are the one deluding yourself here by buying into all this bullshit about the wonderful ways of Charles Manson.
Look up to someone who isn't dripping in blood, eh?

[black magick hustla]

this thread is an embarrasment to revleft. why is there a multiple page thread to a crazy who took too much lsd. what is next, a thread about jones peoples temple?

[Revy]

If someone wants to say that Manson got an unfair trial or whatever then, well, whatever, but I fail to see how Manson was a leftist. That, IMO, is the most important thing here. This isn't Crime Library (http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/serial_killers/notorious/manson/murder_1.html). What makes Manson worthy of supporting (or is relevant to leftist history) inasmuch as Marxists and Anarchists are concerned?

He said some vaguely philosophical things any psychopath can say. That's enough to endear him to loonies like the OP. He even calls him "Charlie" like he was his brother or something.:blink:

[Revy]

this thread is an embarrasment to revleft. why is there a multiple page thread to a crazy who took too much lsd. what is next, a thread about jones peoples temple?

Jim Jones claimed to be a Christian Marxist. So at least that would be relevant.

[The Ungovernable Farce]

You all know fully well that I am not insane nor that I am any kind of troll. The American mentality that violence is the solution and to be closed-minded is destroying the country where I live. Yet no one will admit it or even address it. I can't believe that it has come to the conclusion that I am crazy for trying to, at least, address it.
No, you're crazy for coming to the conclusion that we should ask a murderer about how to stop violence.

The findings about Charlie are from a book called The Manson File (pp. 139-147), written by Nikolas Schreck; who was a supporter of Charles Manson and a supporter of National Socialism (Nazism).

Interesting. :lol:
Yes, it is interesting. This is the company you're keeping. Have you ever thought there might be a reason why violent racist nutjobs might be so keen on a violent racist nutjob?

Well, then. Did you see him give his "followers" LSD and commanding them? Did you see Charlie pull the phone wire at Ms. Tate's home? Did you see any of the murders occur?
I used to believe in evolution, but I've never seen anything evolve, so I guess that must've been the evil media brainwashing me as well. Thanks for freeing my mind, maaaan.

[Martin Blank]

KarlMarx1989 is banned for fascist sympathies. This thread is closed.