A World Language

[Revolutionary Pseudonym]

As an Internationalist I believe that communication between peoples across the world is important. I believe that a language that can be learnt by everybody across the World as a second language is very important.
So what do other people think as to an international second language and to what it should be?
I believe that it should one of these:

1. English, Spanish, French or Arabic: Most people across the World can speak one of these or can at least understand one of these.

2. Mandarin or Hindi/Urdu: Some of the most spoke languages in the World, however from what I understand they are not widely spoken outside of their native area.

3. Esperanto or similar: a constructed lanuage which is intended to be spoken as a second language.

I'm personally a fan of Esperanto being an international as it is based on some of the most widespread languages across the world

So, what do others think??

[newsocialism]

I think english is the most suitable candidate to be a world language. Well, maybe already it is. Why I think so? Because, english is already a mixed language. It includes a lot of words from Latin. It makess english closer to French, Italian, Portugal, Romanian, Catalan, Spanish...etc. It is also considered as a Germanic language. For this reason, it is close to German, Dutch, Swedish, Norwegian, Danish, Icelandic. English also have many words from other languages, such as Greek. It is an indo-european language. That makes it a little closer to languages like, Hindi, Urdu, Farsi..etc. It is maybe not suitable for asians. But learning English is so much easier to learning Chinese for a foreigner.

[Belisarius]

i would say english, but not for linguistic reasons. the thing is that english is already a language used in international relations. there is no reason why we should change that in a socialist world.

[Nolan]

Esperanto all the way, at least for speakers of European languages.

[Revolutionary Pseudonym]

i would say english, but not for linguistic reasons. the thing is that english is already a language used in international relations. there is no reason why we should change that in a socialist world.

The problem with this though is that those involved in international politics are often the elite and belong to upper classes, so just because they can speak English it doesn't automaticly mean that the lower class and the workers can speak English as well. Plus I believe that English is particually difficult to learn for those who don't speak a Germanic language however other language families are easier to learn (I may be wrong on that, feel free to correct me).


Esperanto all the way, at least for speakers of European languages.

As I said, most people can actually at least understand at least one European language which is why I think it is really the beat option.

[Belisarius]

The problem with this though is that those involved in international politics are often the elite and belong to upper classes, so just because they can speak English it doesn't automaticly mean that the lower class and the workers can speak English as well. Plus I believe that English is particually difficult to learn for those who don't speak a Germanic language however other language families are easier to learn (I may be wrong on that, feel free to correct me).
i don't think it's only the upper class that speaks english. in flanders for example no movies are dubbed, so everyhting is spoken in english with dutch subtitles. so we actually learn english from infancy.

[革命者]

I am for language diversity. To prevent languages being used for social stratification in written form we should adopt a logographic script, like Chinese. We'd best to create a simple universal syntax, maybe adopting Chinese syntax.

The most important thing is that people become fully aware of the consequences their use of language has. Syntax and phonetics can make you or break you; they are vital for understanding class.

I am working on these.

[Revolutionary Pseudonym]

i don't think it's only the upper class that speaks english. in flanders for example no movies are dubbed, so everyhting is spoken in english with dutch subtitles. so we actually learn english from infancy.

An interesting point, however do you believe that English is difficult to learn for those who haven't been taught it from a young age? English is particularly differnt from the other widest spoken languages and I think that a key part of an international language is that it should be easiyish to learn, so do you think that the differences between the languages would make it more difficult to learn?

[革命者]

Oh, and English used to be the people's language.

[Belisarius]

An interesting point, however do you believe that English is difficult to learn for those who haven't been taught it from a young age? English is particularly differnt from the other widest spoken languages and I think that a key part of an international language is that it should be easiyish to learn, so do you think that the differences between the languages would make it more difficult to learn?
the problem is that, i think, we can't use constructed languages, since they have all flopped in history. there have been numerous attempts to create languages, but eventually it doens't have the same "extra" that real languages seem to have. contructed languages are based on logic, syntax and stuff like that, but i think the fundamental element of language is its social usage.

i personally believe that english isn't really the most difficult language to learn: verbes are easy compared to for example french, its phonetics is easier than chinese phonetics and i don't know enough about indian languages to compare them. but essentially almost all over the world one learns englishat least at school (Indians, Chinese, Europeans,...)

[Revy]

I love Esperanto. It's very popular already. It was my second language (Spanish is my third). My Esperanto's gotten a little rusty though.

I've heard of Lojban and it does solve a lot of the neutrality issues that been brought up with Esperanto (although Esperanto is a lot more neutral in comparison than English is). Lojban looks a lot harder though. I wonder if it's the real contender though. Even before Esperanto the popular one was Volapük.

The whole idea of Lojban being a "logical language" is something that could appeal to scientists, and resonate more as a language of the future. Esperanto likes to posit itself as a movement, working toward the Fina Venko (Final Victory). I think the utopianism sometimes outshines the language itself. The idea that if communication is improved with a mondlingvo that the world could be at peace. I think it ignores the real reasons that wars and conflict happen.

[革命者]

An interesting point, however do you believe that English is difficult to learn for those who haven't been taught it from a young age? English is particularly differnt from the other widest spoken languages and I think that a key part of an international language is that it should be easiyish to learn, so do you think that the differences between the languages would make it more difficult to learn?All languages are equally difficult to learn when you grow up being equally exposed to them (and you need time for practicing speech sounds and such).

[Revolutionary Pseudonym]

the problem is that, i think, we can't use constructed languages, since they have all flopped in history. there have been numerous attempts to create languages, but eventually it doens't have the same "extra" that real languages seem to have. contructed languages are based on logic, syntax and stuff like that, but i think the fundamental element of language is its social usage.

I think that the reason why constructed languages haven't taken off on a much larger scale is due to them not being widely known/ supported by much of the people.


All languages are equally difficult to learn when you grow up being equally exposed to them (and you need time for practicing speech sounds and such).

I'm afraid I must disagree with you on that, I mean Japanese cannot possibly be easier for a French speaker then say Spanish or Itallian.

[Revolutionary Pseudonym]

I've heard of Lojban and it does solve a lot of the neutrality issues that been brought up with Esperanto (although Esperanto is a lot more neutral in comparison than English is). Lojban looks a lot harder though. I wonder if it's the real contender though. Even before Esperanto the popular one was Volapük.

The whole idea of Lojban being a "logical language" is something that could appeal to scientists, and resonate more as a language of the future. Esperanto likes to posit itself as a movement, working toward the Fina Venko (Final Victory). I think the utopianism sometimes outshines the language itself. The idea that if communication is improved with a mondlingvo that the world could be at peace. I think it ignores the real reasons that wars and conflict happen.

From what I understand about Lojban is that it is quite different from most 'natural' language simply because it has been made from such a large number of languages, thus making it particually difficult to learn. Esperanto on the other hand is based on fewer languages and which are some of the most widely spoken languages thus making it easier to learn, however I can barely speak it and I only know the very basics so please correct me if Im wrong.

[革命者]

I think that the reason why constructed languages haven't taken off on a much larger scale is due to them not being widely known/ supported by much of the people.These languages have no benefits in comparison to natural languages. Languages have to be acquired from birth to really 'take off'. And it's certainly true that many constructed languages violate the unwritten laws all natural languages are subject to.


I'm afraid I must disagree with you on that, I mean Japanese cannot possibly be easier for a French speaker then say Spanish or Itallian.If all those languages are acquired from birth, there's little to no difference between languages in terms of difficulty; all languages can be acquired quite effortlessly, with the resulting fluency not being dependent of any inherent qualities of the languages. Constructed languages seem impossible to acquired in a similar way that would result in fluency, however.

[Dimentio]

Loglan.

[Lolshevik]

How many people on here who are fans of Esperanto actually speak it, or are working towards learning it?

I've dipped my toe in the language several times over the years but I've never really learned it. I think that the socialist movement should pay much more attention to Esperanto, which would help correct much of the utopianism of that movement that The Human Condition pointed out. It's much easier to learn than things like Lojban and is more naturalistic than 'ethnically neutral' projects such as Solresol.

[black magick hustla]

english is the international language. i dont think you can "build" international languages. they come into being because of historical specifities

[cenv]

Esperanto is awesome, although making it an international language probably isn't realistic. I wish I had time to really learn it, but from the dabbling I did, it seemed very well structured and easy to learn.

It's too bad English is considered the international language. I mean, it's convenient for those of us who speak it as a first language, but can you imagine trying to learn it? It's probably the most fucked up language in existence.

[Invincible Summer]

Esperanto is awesome, although making it an international language probably isn't realistic. I wish I had time to really learn it, but from the dabbling I did, it seemed very well structured and easy to learn.

It's too bad English is considered the international language. I mean, it's convenient for those of us who speak it as a first language, but can you imagine trying to learn it? It's probably the most fucked up language in existence.


Actually I hear that Mandarin is the hardest to learn... I mean to say "two ____" you can't use the same "two" word for "two cars" as "two houses." Plus there's all the tonality and characters...

[black magick hustla]

To add to the discussion. I imagine communism will give birth to a new language. Language is a mirror ofthe world, and I imagine the world of a free man is different from that of an enslaved man. It would probably be the most beautiful language that has ever existed.

[Tablo]

I think English isn't the best choice of a universal language. Japanese is a very logically structured language so I would pick that. The one downside to it is kanji. So Japanese without kanji I think would be one of the best languages. I also have heard Russian is a very good language, but I don't really know much about it.

[Invincible Summer]

I think English isn't the best choice of a universal language. Japanese is a very logically structured language so I would pick that. The one downside to it is kanji. So Japanese without kanji I think would be one of the best languages. I also have heard Russian is a very good language, but I don't really know much about it.

What I love about Japanese is the phonetic nature of the language. Nothing weird to pronounce. Although, grammatically I found it a bit challenging


German is quite logically structured as well... but it's sort of taboo to promote it as a "universal language" unless one wants to be seen as some sort of neo-Nazi

[StalinFanboy]

I think english is the most suitable candidate to be a world language. Well, maybe already it is. Why I think so? Because, english is already a mixed language. It includes a lot of words from Latin. It makess english closer to French, Italian, Portugal, Romanian, Catalan, Spanish...etc. It is also considered as a Germanic language. For this reason, it is close to German, Dutch, Swedish, Norwegian, Danish, Icelandic. English also have many words from other languages, such as Greek. It is an indo-european language. That makes it a little closer to languages like, Hindi, Urdu, Farsi..etc. It is maybe not suitable for asians. But learning English is so much easier to learning Chinese for a foreigner.
Wow. Talk about ethnocentrism...

[Q]

I also support Esperanto. Ideally you learn just two languages when you're young; your local dialect and Esperanto. Everything else is totally optional.

English isn't as universal as one might think. In the Netherlands and also in Belgium many people speak it as a second language, but we're pretty much the exception. I often go to Germany and many people don't understand a word of it. Let alone in the rest of Europe.

Besides, with a bit of training, you can master Esperanto grammar within a week, it was designed to be easy to learn :)

[Revy]

I also support Esperanto. Ideally you learn just two languages when you're young; your local dialect and Esperanto. Everything else is totally optional.

English isn't as universal as one might think. In the Netherlands and also in Belgium many people speak it as a second language, but we're pretty much the exception. I often go to Germany and many people don't understand a word of it. Let alone in the rest of Europe.

Besides, with a bit of training, you can master Esperanto grammar within a week, it was designed to be easy to learn :)

Ever heard of Gxangalo? It was a website with news and other stuff in Esperanto. It had a chatroom that I liked to chat in. Everyone was chatting in Esperanto. rarely any English was spoken. Why should the world go through all the effort to learn English when a much easier language exists?

this is pretty funny.
qNDt8j60UH0

[Ovi]

I would prefer a constructed language simply for being neutral. No culture, no particular history, no patriotism and other shit. Esperanto seems a good alternative, it's easy to learn as I hear, but on the downside it is basically a European language. Although English is probably easy to learn compared to other languages (that depends on everyones first language I guess), it's usage is still a matter of politics. Before WW2 everyone around here spoke french, after that russian, now english. It would be nice if we'd all speak the same second language, no matter where we live.

[Jimmie Higgins]

I think if people decided to have a single language in some future communist society, then I would hope that they would pick a constructed 2nd language.

English is amazing for poetry and literature because of the sheer quantity of words - borrowed terms and adjectives and so on - but it is also the most irrational language I know of and hard to learn as a second language.

[革命者]

Maybe we should start a worldwide Cultural Revolution to rid us of those old-fashioned, irrational languages!

[Revolutionary Pseudonym]

To add to the discussion. I imagine communism will give birth to a new language. Language is a mirror ofthe world, and I imagine the world of a free man is different from that of an enslaved man. It would probably be the most beautiful language that has ever existed.

A very interesting idea; how would you imagine that language coming about? A merger of all the languages, a new constructed language or something differnt altogether?

Cheers

[Q]

To add to the discussion. I imagine communism will give birth to a new language. Language is a mirror ofthe world, and I imagine the world of a free man is different from that of an enslaved man. It would probably be the most beautiful language that has ever existed.
I fully agree. While I support Esperanto as a world second language as it would be a huge leap forwards to the current situation of imperialist and difficult to learn languages, I don't believe it'll be the final letter on linguistic development. The issues that are related with Esperanto (it's Eurocentric design) will be solved in practice and by continual development.

[革命者]

I fully agree. While I support Esperanto as a world second language as it would be a huge leap forwards to the current situation of imperialist and difficult to learn languages, I don't believe it'll be the final letter on linguistic development. The issues that are related with Esperanto (it's Eurocentric design) will be solved in practice and by continual development.That's like designing new banknotes because money is used for social stratification. Language is culture and part of the superstructure, such that we should change the base to change culture.

Cultural diversity and legacy should be preserved at all cost. Using technology to facilitate communication between cultures can be done by tranlation and transliteration. Transliteration of word meanings in characters, like used in logographic scripts, are a very useful way to ease communication. Script is artificial and improving it can only be done artificially. Natural, cultural things are part of people's cultures and those shouldn't be messed with. It are people you are talking about; not machines.

[Tablo]

I dont want to see a destruction of cultures. I like observing and learning of different customs all around the world and see no reason why they should be removed. Obviously aspects like patriarchy should be removed though.. Whatever language is used as a second language, it should be simple, logical, and easy to speak.

[black magick hustla]

I dont want to see a destruction of cultures. I like observing and learning of different customs all around the world and see no reason why they should be removed. Obviously aspects like patriarchy should be removed though.. Whatever language is used as a second language, it should be simple, logical, and easy to speak.

I don´t think "culture" can be proactively destroyed. culture is organical; no conscious effort will destroy it or will preserve it. cultures either die or live.

Now:

"The language of the whole man will be a whole language: perhaps the end of the old language of words. Inventing this language means reconstructing man right down to his unconscious. Totality is hacking its way through the fractured non-totality of thoughts, words and actions towards itself. We will have to speak until we can do without words."

[black magick hustla]

A very interesting idea; how would you imagine that language coming about? A merger of all the languages, a new constructed language or something differnt altogether?

Cheers
i dont think we can know. what we can know, however, is that it will be so different that perhaps we cannot even conceptualize today the rich meanings this new language will have. is akin to a 13th century peasant thinking about the nietzchean concept of an ubermensch. we can also know it is going to be organical. language either is organical or not i think. it will not be "engineered".

[syndicat]

Natural languages are part of the patrimony of humanity and they carry human concepts and culture with them. This is why it is important to preserve language diversity.

English ended up being the dominant commercial language due to British and American imperialism. That said, English is widespread. As an international language, it has both advantages and disadvantages.

English pronunciation and spelling are extremely irregular, which makes the language harder to learn. We might compare it for example with castellano (Iberian Spanish) which is almost perfectly phonetic. And of course there are variations in pronunciation between the British and American versions (and their regional dialects).

On the other hand, English is syntactically very compact. If you translate a page of English into any other Indo-European language, the text will be much longer. This is because during the period after the French-Norman conquest, when Old English was banned, the language was pidginized and lost its declensions. Also, nouns and adjectives are mostly gender neutral which is an advantage. About half the words in English are of Latin origin but this is only an advantage for purposes of understanding by people who speak western European languages.

[革命者]

That English is hard to learn by reading it is due to the ortography/spelling, not due to the language itself.

The spelling could be improved or the Romance script could be supplanted with a better one to make it more information rich about the language and its pronunciation.

Spanish has fewer phonemes/systematic speech sound variations, so that would make English less information rich; Spanish speakers speaking English have difficulty being correctly understood because of phoneme shortage. But the Romance script is more fit for such languages, because of the small amount of characters. Latin had few phonemes, just like the Romance languages. Spelling is easier, not the languages.

[Revy]

That English is hard to learn by reading it is due to the ortography/spelling, not due to the language itself.

The spelling could be improved or the Romance script could be supplanted with a better one to make it more information rich about the language and its pronunciation.

Spanish has fewer phonemes/systematic speech sound variations, so that would make English less information rich; Spanish speakers speaking English have difficulty being correctly understood because of phoneme shortage. But the Romance script is more fit for such languages, because of the small amount of characters. Latin had few phonemes, just like the Romance languages. Spelling is easier, not the languages.

George Bernard Shaw proposed the Shavian alphabet (http://www.omniglot.com/writing/shavian.htm) for English as a replacement of the Latin alphabet. Benjamin Franklin proposed a less radical alphabet (http://www.omniglot.com/writing/franklin.htm) still based on the Latin alphabet.

[Q]

That English is hard to learn by reading it is due to the ortography/spelling, not due to the language itself.

The spelling could be improved or the Romance script could be supplanted with a better one to make it more information rich about the language and its pronunciation.

Spanish has fewer phonemes/systematic speech sound variations, so that would make English less information rich; Spanish speakers speaking English have difficulty being correctly understood because of phoneme shortage. But the Romance script is more fit for such languages, because of the small amount of characters. Latin had few phonemes, just like the Romance languages. Spelling is easier, not the languages.
From the wikipedia article on Esperanto:

Various educators have estimated that Esperanto can be learned in anywhere from one quarter to one twentieth the amount of time required for other languages.[28] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esperanto#cite_note-27) Claude Piron (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claude_Piron), a psychologist formerly at the University of Geneva (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Geneva) and Chinese-English-Russian-Spanish translator for the United Nations, argued that Esperanto is far more intuitive than many ethnic languages. "Esperanto relies entirely on innate reflexes [and] differs from all other languages in that you can always trust your natural tendency to generalize patterns. [...] The same neuropsychological (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuropsychology) law [—called by] Jean Piaget (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Piaget) generalizing assimilation—applies to word formation as well as to grammar."[29] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esperanto#cite_note-Piron-28)

The Institute of Cybernetic Pedagogy at Paderborn (Germany) has compared the length of study time it takes Francophone high school students to obtain comparable 'standard' levels in Esperanto, English, German, and Italian.[30] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esperanto#cite_note-29) The results were:


2000 hours studying German =
1500 hours studying English =
1000 hours studying Italian =
150 hours studying Esperanto.


So, spelling is only a small part of the problem with other languages.

[革命者]

From the wikipedia article on Esperanto:

So, spelling is only a small part of the problem with other languages.Esperanto is not a natural language. You create children with language deficiencies if you don't expose them to a real natural language.

Esperanto's best use is to show what a natural language is and what it is not.

Languages are in a way a mirror of society, but I am not going to change a mirror image of myself if I want to change my appearance.

[Q]

Esperanto is not a natural language. You create children with language deficiencies if you don't expose them to a real natural language.

Esperanto's best use is to show what a natural language is and what it is not.
Sorry, but this is bullshit. Esperanto is on the contrary often used as a "springboard" to other languages and as a showcase in how languages work in general. It is true that it is a constructed language, but that has nothing to do with creating "language deficiencies" towards other languages.


Languages are in a way a mirror of society, but I am not going to change a mirror image of myself if I want to change my appearance.
True to an extent, that's why I don't support the idealist movement that is surrounded by much of the Esperanto movement. But a socialist society will provide fertile grounds for a world language like Esperanto.

[Devrim]

english is the international language. i dont think you can "build" international languages. they come into being because of historical specifities

Practically it is, yes.


The problem with this though is that those involved in international politics are often the elite and belong to upper classes, so just because they can speak English it doesn't automaticly mean that the lower class and the workers can speak English as well.

No, It doesn't mean that everybody speaks English at all. It is probably the most widely used though. The last time I was at the ICC international congress I notived this. In the sessions of course we had direct translation, but when for example there was a Mexican speaking to a German between sessions, they were speaking in English. It doesn't mean that everyone in our German or Mexican sections speaks English, but that it is the most widespread language and ends up being used for a lot of communication.


Plus I believe that English is particually difficult to learn for those who don't speak a Germanic language however other language families are easier to learn (I may be wrong on that, feel free to correct me).

I don't think that English is supposed to be a particulary difficult language to learn compared to others, but other agree with you:


It's too bad English is considered the international language. I mean, it's convenient for those of us who speak it as a first language, but can you imagine trying to learn it? It's probably the most fucked up language in existence.

I am pretty sure that it is not that bad to learn though.


Actually I hear that Mandarin is the hardest to learn... I mean to say "two ____" you can't use the same "two" word for "two cars" as "two houses." Plus there's all the tonality and characters...

I have heard that it is supposed to be pretty easy to learn to speak it, and that it doesn't have tenses at all, and instead expresses time by means of time words.

English because of its use as the langauge of Empire has become simplified. The same thing happened with Latin, which dropped cases in the imperial period, and Greek. English today barely has case, apart from the singular example of the genitive, whereas old English was a cased based language. Also other forms have been dropped. Who today says 'Thou'?


English is amazing for poetry and literature because of the sheer quantity of words - borrowed terms and adjectives and so on - but it is also the most irrational language I know of and hard to learn as a second language.

English does have a lot of irregular forms. That is true. If we compare it with Turkish, which only has one irregular word in the entire language, it seems preposterous. On the other hand English has very simple verb forms. There are only five; write, writes, wrote, written, writing. Turkish has over two million verb forms.


English pronunciation and spelling are extremely irregular, which makes the language harder to learn. We might compare it for example with castellano (Iberian Spanish) which is almost perfectly phonetic. And of course there are variations in pronunciation between the British and American versions (and their regional dialects).

I am not sure whether a language is phonetic is that relevant to how easy it is to learn. Yes, it can make spelling difficult, but it is also difficult for English native speakers to. Turkish is a completely phonetic language, and nobody has a problem with spelling. Kids in school do not even do spelling bees, which I believe are quite popular in the US.

Does that make a language easier or more difficult? I don't know, but people spoke before they could write, and people who are illiterate can still learn languages. I suspect it is not central.


I mean Japanese cannot possibly be easier for a French speaker then say Spanish or Itallian.

I think in general this comes down to the difference between language and dialect. I heard one definition that the difference between a language and a dialect is an army and a navy. To take some examples Serbian and Croation are now classified as two different languages, whereas they used to be referred to as Serbo-Croat. Czech and Slovak are different languages yet mutually comprehensible. Kurdish, which is considered to be a language has three main dialects, which are mutually incomprehensible. I remember once seeing two women one from Iraq, one from Turkey having to speak in English because the Kurdish they spoke was so different.

Spanish, French and Latin are all descended from Latin within the reasonably recent past. Of course they still have similarities. If it weren't for the political situation would they be classified as languages or dialects.


Natural languages are part of the patrimony of humanity and they carry human concepts and culture with them. This is why it is important to preserve language diversity.

I don't agree with promoting language diversity. I don't support killing languages off either, but it is just part of a process that happens. People will use what they consider to be useful. This result in langauges going extinct, at a rate of about one a week I believe.

Devrim

[syndicat]

The death of languages isn't entirely "just a process of what happens." Consider the case of Berber in Morocco. About half the country speak it as their native language. But the monarchist regime there does instruction in the schools only in classical arabic. Berber parents are thus denied the right to have their children educated in their language. This is a form of cultural oppression.

Or during the Franco dictatorship in Spain the various regional languages were suppressed -- Catalan (about 8 million people speak it), Basque, and Gallego (which is a variant of Portugese spoken in Galicia).

However, it's also true that states create language differentiation. "Macedonian" isn't really different from Bulgarian but the nationalists wanted to "nation build" by promoting the idea of them having their own language. And Bulgarian isn't all that different from Serbo-Croatian either.

Similarly Norwegian could be considered only a dialect of Danish (Norway was once a part of the Danish empire).

[Devrim]

The death of languages isn't entirely "just a process of what happens." Consider the case of Berber in Morocco. About half the country speak it as their native language. But the monarchist regime there does instruction in the schools only in classical arabic. Berber parents are thus denied the right to have their children educated in their language. This is a form of cultural oppression.

Or during the Franco dictatorship in Spain the various regional languages were suppressed -- Catalan (about 8 million people speak it), Basque, and Gallego (which is a variant of Portugese spoken in Galicia).

No, it isn't entirely "just a process of what happens", and we certainly know about langauge repression in Turkey. Until very recently it was not only impossible for Kurdish speakers to be educated in their own language, which is still the case, but it was also a crime to speak it even in the privacy of your own home, with a minimum prison sentence of six months.

Obviously, this is deeply wrong, but that doesn't mean that we should work
'to preserve language diversity' on principal.

Devrim

[black magick hustla]

The death of languages isn't entirely "just a process of what happens." Consider the case of Berber in Morocco. About half the country speak it as their native language. But the monarchist regime there does instruction in the schools only in classical arabic. Berber parents are thus denied the right to have their children educated in their language. This is a form of cultural oppression.
.
My father is Berber. As Devrim though, I dont think it is part of "class politics" to build a platform around culture.

[syndicat]

well, i think the existence of distinct cultures is something that a class politics has to deal with. that's because oppression of particular national or racialized groups is part of what divides the working class. And it's not adequate to just say "unite and fight" or "forget about culture." A purely "color blind" approach to class would be totally unworkable here in the USA where for example people of African ancestry have been "racialized" -- treated as an "other" to be warrant worse treatment -- since the late 17th century.

The ways that the toes of different groups within the working class are being stepped on has to be addressed. This means that class unity is only likely to be built in a country with the sort of heterogeneous working class we have through an politics of alliances. This means that people who look different, have different backgrounds, are of different genders, etc. have dialogue, reach understanding, and understand in particular the grievances of the other groups, and their concerns then become part of the common consciousness of the movement. by an "alliance" i'm not talking about a cross-class alliance but an intra-class alliance, since there are different groups that make up the working class. language in the USA becomes an issue mainly in areas where there is a large Spanish-speaking population. but "culture" doesn't refer only to language.

[black magick hustla]

well, i think the existence of distinct cultures is something that a class politics has to deal with. that's because oppression of particular national or racialized groups is part of what divides the working class. And it's not adequate to just say "unite and fight" or "forget about culture." A purely "color blind" approach to class would be totally unworkable here in the USA where for example people of African ancestry have been "racialized" -- treated as an "other" to be warrant worse treatment -- since the late 17th century.
i dont think it is a matter of "color blindness". i think one can acknowledge racism without building platforms around "cultural diversity" etcetera.



The ways that the toes of different groups within the working class are being stepped on has to be addressed. This means that class unity is only likely to be built in a country with the sort of heterogeneous working class we have through an politics of alliances. This means that people who look different, have different backgrounds, are of different genders, etc. have dialogue, reach understanding, and understand in particular the grievances of the other groups, and their concerns then become part of the common consciousness of the movement. by an "alliance" i'm not talking about a cross-class alliance but an intra-class alliance, since there are different groups that make up the working class. language in the USA becomes an issue mainly in areas where there is a large Spanish-speaking population. but "culture" doesn't refer only to language.

i dont think it is a matter of just "speaking" english inside working class organizations. ive been involved with left communism for a while and people speak all sorts of languages. my main language is spanish, but i also speak english and i am from a berber mexican background.

the problem is that almost always the people who speak about "tradition" and "culture" are the ones that end up tailing a particular faction of the boss class. i can say, in all honestly, i never met someone really involved in identity politics that does not end up either defending national liberation, or tailing a particular faction of the state.

I think this is reflected, most clearly, in the groups surrounding anarkismo: a group that tries to claim an anti-state class analysis and at the same time pander to cultural politics.wayne price call for national defense of lebanon was particularly gross

[Devrim]

well, i think the existence of distinct cultures is something that a class politics has to deal with. that's because oppression of particular national or racialized groups is part of what divides the working class. And it's not adequate to just say "unite and fight" or "forget about culture." A purely "color blind" approach to class would be totally unworkable here in the USA where for example people of African ancestry have been "racialized" -- treated as an "other" to be warrant worse treatment -- since the late 17th century.

Here though you connect 'preserving language diversity' to culture and ethnecity whereas I don't think it is a directly related question. I persume that the two largest ethnic minorities in the US are blacks, the vast majority of whom would be English speaking, and Latinos, who would of course be Spanish speaking. Neither of these two languages are in any need of preserving.


A purely "color blind" approach to class would be totally unworkable here in the USA

I think that the left in the US has a very different approach to 'race' issues than in the rest of the world. I am not sure why though possibly it is connected to the relative weakness of the working class.

I agree with Dada's other points, particularly this one:


the problem is that almost always the people who speak about "tradition" and "culture" are the ones that end up tailing a particular faction of the boss class. i can say, in all honestly, i never met someone really involved in identity politics that does not end up either defending national liberation, or tailing a particular faction of the state

The people who are involved with language movements generally happen to be the people who are involved with nationalist movements. I don't think that is just coincidence.

Devrim

[sanpal]

I've heard a story about a professor of one of the university who have solved a problem to prevent harming to lawns by students who tramp down the grass around the university buildings to have them short way. He has waited a bit while all paths are visible and then he has paved with asphalt all paths.
The same point of view has to be put in this subject i.e. what language could be selected as a world one.

[al8]

edit; double post.

[al8]

Well I'm Icelandic and I come from a language community of only 300.000 people. Almost everyday I'm faced with cultural disintegration and language disintegration. It's not comfortable. It's not just an attack on me but the entire language community that I am apart of. We are somewhat more diligent than other minority languages, but still it is always a struggle.

I think it's quite sloppy and insensitive of the left communists in this thread to downplay this issue - the repression, marginalization and disrespect for the integrity of languages and its communities, is part and parcel of the encompassing imperialism of the strongest capitalist countries. You can see this very clearly in the countries the US has invaded like Yugoslavia - they mute and defund internal cultural production and substitute it with the dissemination of yankee bile on the big screen and in the radio and other mediums. It's one of the flaws of capitalism because it negatively affects people. When we reckon with capitalism this has to be taken into account and fixed. This would be done by safeguarding the real material cultural integrity of every culture and language as well as easing inn a real and material common culture and language. In the end people would be at least bilingual and have a firm all around grounding in both domestic and transnational culture and language. They have done this in regards to domestic culture in the Marxist-Leninist inspired countries, like in Albania, North-Korea, Hungary etc. And I find that to be one of their most outstanding features. What ever else one would want to say about them.

It is irrelevant that some Marxist-leninists have turned (out to be) revisionist, social-democrat, national or racist supremacist or whatever. It always happens that someone softens up and falls from radical opinions - there is no doubt some left-communists that have back-slided - even though I have not checked on this. The issue has to be taken on its own merits.

When cultural products (such as movies, books, song etc.) are not in your mother tongue for example, ones feel for ones language, ones feel for oneself lessens. One lacks the words, and cannot articulate ones thoughts as clearly to others of the same language group. You stop being a whole individual.

As I see it the go with the flow attitude of you Devrim, and Dada is just a capitulation to one extent of capitalist dominance. This may be to much of a side issue. And one naturally cannot be up to date on every side issue. But why not then pass over it in silence if you don't have an opinion of it, instead of lazily acquiescing to a part of the capitalist imperialist program on the issues of language and culture.

[Tablo]

Interesting point al8. This is a perspective I have not heard on the issue. I certainly would like to retain language, but I see an world-wide second language to be beneficial. Do you think such a language would hurt your language?

[al8]

Interesting point al8. This is a perspective I have not heard on the issue. I certainly would like to retain language, but I see an world-wide second language to be beneficial. Do you think such a language would hurt your language?

It would depend on what would be the transnational second language. But even if say English would be the lingua franca, minority languages could still thrive well if secured an equal material right to cultural production as that of the lingua franca - that would include a good education system, active publishing of books, movies, theater of all topics in the mother tongue - as well as a strong language academia (maintaining a good language quarantine/helping with proper conversion of foreign words to fit the language etc).

If the international language would be made up to be logical, easy-to learn, etc. I can imagine leaving my own language voluntarily behind for the better one - How such a decision would be arrived at collectively, I am not sure, possibly by a plebiscite. The main thing of importance is to engage with populations from where they are at, with respect, consideration and understanding.

[black magick hustla]

Well I'm Icelandic and I come from a language community of only 300.000 people. Almost everyday I'm faced with cultural disintegration and language disintegration. It's not comfortable. It's not just an attack on me but the entire language community that I am apart of. We are somewhat more diligent than other minority languages, but still it is always a struggle.
i might sound like a dick but i think this is kind of an exaggeration. the only people i met who get all personal about imported television shows or whatever seem to me that they are either leftists or intellectuals. i dont think i ever felt like that.




I think it's quite sloppy and insensitive of the left communists in this thread to downplay this issue - the repression, marginalization and disrespect for the integrity of languages and its communities, is part and parcel of the encompassing imperialism of the strongest capitalist countries. You can see this very clearly in the countries the US has invaded like Yugoslavia - they mute and defund internal cultural production and substitute it with the dissemination of yankee bile on the big screen and in the radio and other mediums.


what makes 'yugoslav culture' better than 'yankee bile'? moroever, is this
"cultural erosion' as accute as you describe it? in mexico there are all sorts of mexican tv shows and mexican movies and people do watch them. i dont think the average bloke 'feels cornered' about american cultural imperialism in mexico.



It's one of the flaws of capitalism because it negatively affects people. When we reckon with capitalism this has to be taken into account and fixed. This would be done by safeguarding the real material cultural integrity of every culture and language as well as easing inn a real and material common culture and language. In the end people would be at least bilingual and have a firm all around grounding in both domestic and transnational culture and language. They have done this in regards to domestic culture in the Marxist-Leninist inspired countries, like in Albania, North-Korea, Hungary etc. And I find that to be one of their most outstanding features. What ever else one would want to say about them.

i dont think they were "oustanding" features. the capitalist state is a nation-state, and it derives its legitimacy from the idea of the nation, and 'national' culture.





It is irrelevant that some Marxist-leninists have turned (out to be) revisionist, social-democrat, national or racist supremacist or whatever. It always happens that someone softens up and falls from radical opinions - there is no doubt some left-communists that have back-slided - even though I have not checked on this. The issue has to be taken on its own merits.


i dont think it is a matter of 'back-slided'. i think cultural politics are just intimately linked to particular concerns that i feel are not communist concerns at all, and this particular cultural politics derive from the capitalist idea that there is such thing as a nation.



When cultural products (such as movies, books, song etc.) are not in your mother tongue for example, ones feel for ones language, ones feel for oneself lessens. One lacks the words, and cannot articulate ones thoughts as clearly to others of the same language group. You stop being a whole individual.

purely anecdotal and hyperbolic. i am a minority and there is plenty 'minority' culture.



As I see it the go with the flow attitude of you Devrim, and Dada is just a capitulation to one extent of capitalist dominance. This may be to much of a side issue. And one naturally cannot be up to date on every side issue. But why not then pass over it in silence if you don't have an opinion of it, instead of lazily acquiescing to a part of the capitalist imperialist program on the issues of language and culture.

because it is somewhat of an important issue. cultural poltics always end up with capitulation to the state. after all all these noble ideas of national tradition, preservation of the mother tongue etc, are intimately linked to the creation of the capitalist nation state.