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fredbergen
31st January 2010, 18:42
http://www.internationalist.org/theint3_ns3.gif
January 2010







Spartacist League Backs U.S.
Imperialist Invasion of Haiti
http://www.internationalist.org/haitiustroopspatrol1001.jpg
U.S. troops from 82nd Airborne Division patrol Haiti’s capital of Port-au-Prince. Aiding the Haitian people? No, this is imperialist occupation. (Photo: Ramón Espinosa/AP)





The latest issue of Workers Vanguard (No. 951, 29 January 2010), newspaper of the Spartacist League/U.S., has a front-page story, “Haiti Earthquake Horror: Imperialism, Racism and Starvation,” that supports the presence of United States and United Nations occupation troops in Haiti. WV buys the U.S. rulers’ cover story for their latest invasion as supposedly aiding the desperate Haitian masses left homeless, hungry and in dire need of medical attention in the wake of the devastating January 12 earthquake that demolished the Haitian capital of Port-au-Prince and surrounding areas. The article ends with an apoplectic attack on the Internationalist Group for exposing the imperialist lies and demanding “U.S./U.N. Forces Get Out!” We have here a classic example of the term Lenin coined during World War I: “social-imperialism,” which he applied to those who espouse socialism in the abstract while supporting imperialism in practice. Then as now, its practitioners launch virulent attacks on revolutionaries for actually standing against their “own” imperialist rulers.

This is a deeply significant step for the SL/U.S. and its International Communist League, marking the point at which they have gone over from bending under pressure from the ruling class to outright apology for imperialism. Many of those who continued to see the SL/ICL as orthodox Trotskyists – despite its repeated lurches to the right in recent years – may be shocked and find it hard to believe. Earlier, the SL flinched, no longer calling for the defeat of their own imperialist rulers when the U.S. invaded Afghanistan in 2001. Now it has gone a big step further in actually justifying the massive deployment of 12,000 U.S. troops in Haiti and deliberately prettifying their role there. It is one thing to read in history books about former revolutionaries capitulating to the pressures of imperialism, but here we see the process unfolding in real time, before our eyes.

This latest step in the Spartacist League’s abandonment of revolutionary principles and program is a textbook case of revisionism. It’s worth examining carefully to see how it’s done. First, you start off with a hearty dose of abstract socialist principles spiced up with some history. The WV article goes into the U.S. record of occupying Haiti to punish the black republic for successfully liberating the slaves of the French colony of St.-Domingue in the first successful slave revolution in history. They do this in part by quoting articles published by WV in the period when it was still the voice of revolutionary Trotskyism. Still, any good liberal or rad-lib like Noam Chomsky could agree with most of what the SL has written here about the past crimes of U.S. imperialism without compromising their present support for U.S. imperialism in the name of responding to the “humanitarian crisis.”

After columns of this packaging material we get to the ritual denunciation of the reformist left. But here WV attacks them from the right. While groups like the International Socialist Organization and Workers World Party “call for the U.S. to provide aid without the exercise of American military might, we have no such illusions,” it writes. Indeed, the hard-eyed “realists” of the SL hold that “the exercise of American military might” (i.e., occupation) is necessary to provide aid, and they support it. (In this, they’re actually closer to Hillary Clinton than to the ISO or WWP.)
WV makes that clear when it attacks the Internationalist Group, for calling for “all U.S./U.N. forces to get out” of Haiti. This, WV says, “would result in mass death through starvation.” How so? According to the SL pretend revolutionaries, “The U.S. military is the only force on the ground with the capacity – e.g., trucks, planes, ships – to organize the transport of what food, water, medical and other supplies are getting to Haiti’s population.” This is false in every respect. First, the U.S. military has no (or very few) trucks in Haiti – when troops of the 82nd Airborne Division went from the Port-au-Prince airport to the General Hospital they had go by helicopter and then on foot. And while Haiti lacks a lot of things, it has huge numbers of trucks. Second, U.S. ships have not been providing aid, (a) because the pier at the main port collapsed, and (b) because the U.S. ships consist of a nuclear-powered aircraft carrier, a guided missile cruiser, a guided missile frigate, several Coast Guard vessels and a hospital ship (which arrived over a week after the quake); none of these ships carried cargo for Haiti. And third, the U.S. military planes did not deliver anything for distribution to the population – they brought soldiers, and what food and water they carried was for the U.S. troops or the U.S. embassy. Their mission was not rescue and relief or rebuilding but “security.”

So here the SL is prettifying the actual role of the U.S. forces in Haiti. And they are doing it consciously, because doctors and aid groups have vociferously complained about how the U.S. has been blocking their supplies. Even spokesmen of the French government (for their own imperialist reasons, but no less accurately for that) openly denounced the U.S. forces for blocking aid – while Cuba’s Fidel Castro pointedly wrote: “We send doctors, not soldiers.” In an exchange with the WV writer on Haiti at a demonstration yesterday, he insisted that the U.S. military forces are providing aid, which is simply not true with a couple of isolated exceptions like the one-day photo op mission to the outlying area of Leogane. As for the U.N. military and police forces, the MINUSTAH, they have only distributed a limited amount of food aid, while repeatedly blocking private agencies from distributing. According to the U.N.’s World Food Program, two weeks after the quake they had only distributed food to 310,000 people, when relief agencies estimate that 3 million Haitians need emergency food aid on a daily basis – i.e., barely one in ten have received anything at all from the U.N.

A video on the Internet shows a team from the U.N.’s World Food Program (WFP) putting boxes of food back onto its truck after a crowd became frustrated when people were asked to fill out forms before they received food aid! No wonder people became restive in a country where more than half the population is illiterate! What a travesty of “humanitarian” aid. See: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/35089945#35089945 This is the reality of U.N. “aid” in Haiti.

So what the SL is saying is “there is no alternative” to the U.S./U.N. military distributing aid at present. This is nonsense, since the vast majority of what little aid is actually getting through is being distributed by private or quasi-governmental agencies like the Red Cross, not by soldiers. But the fundamental point is that the pretext of providing aid is the excuse that the U.S. is using to reoccupy the country militarily. And the U.S. commanders make it clear they intend to stay “until the job is done,” the same phrase Obama uses in Afghanistan. Since the Haitian “government” is virtually non-existent, that “job,” however defined, is going to take awhile. There is nothing unique about this. While Republicans like Bush launch wars by saying they are on a crusade, and Cheney says he is after the oil, the Democrats always cite lofty aims. Woodrow Wilson waged World War I to “make the world safe for democracy,” Franklin D. Roosevelt packaged World War II as a fight for the “four freedoms,” Bill Clinton claimed he was defending “human rights” in Haiti by sending the Marines to put back President Jean-Bertrand Aristide in 1994. Then in 1995, and again in 1999, he bombed Serbia with the same excuse. Much of the left bought Clinton’s lie of “human rights” imperialism over the Yugoslav wars. Now the SL is doing it with Obama over Haiti.

We predicted that the U.S. wants to go beyond the patrolling of Haiti by the MINUSTAH mercenary occupation force of 9,000+ soldiers and cops to take over the government and impose something like a U.N. protectorate on Haiti. Now this is being said openly. Robert Pastor, then-president Clinton’s point man on Haiti in the 1990s, told the Christian Science Monitor (27 January) that the U.S. and other donors “should take advantage of this goodwill and ask Haitians – through a referendum – to allow their country to become a 10-year UN trusteeship or to approve some other form of strong international control.”

So while falsely claiming the U.S. military is necessary to provide relief, WV admits they do the job “in the typical piggish U.S. imperialist manner.” It goes on to say:

“We have always opposed U.S. and UN occupations in Haiti and everywhere – and it may become necessary to call for U.S./UN out of Haiti in the near future – but we are not going to call for an end to such aid as the desperate Haitian masses can get their hands on.”

So here we have the SL saying, first, that it opposed U.S./U.N. occupation in the past, and may do so again in the future. But it doesn’t oppose it now! And now is when the troops are arriving. WV denounces us for calling for U.S./U.N. troops to get out, and when it says the military machine is indispensable to provide aid, it means it wants the troops to stay, “piggish imperialist manner” and all. The bottom line is, the Spartacist League supports the imperialist occupation. In any case, its prior “opposition” to the occupation is nothing more than words on paper. When the U.S. invaded Haiti in 2004, we didn’t see the SL in the streets protesting. In contrast, our comrades of the Liga Quarta-Internacionalista do Brasil and LQB trade-union supporters in the Comitê de Luta Classista were able to get the teachers union of Rio de Janeiro and the National Federation of Education Workers (CNTE) to pass motions calling on Brazilian workers to “aid the Haitian working people in expelling the invading Brazilian troops.”

Then, in the second half of the same sentence, in order to justify this shameful support, the SL implies that calling for U.S./U.N. forces to get out now amounts to cutting off aid and condemning the Haitian masses to death. This is a typical “straw man” ploy common to all demagogues: set up a phony argument in order to knock it down. Where did the Internationalist Group ever say or suggest that we are “call[ing] for an end to such aid as the desperate Haitian masses can get their hands on”? What the IG called for in our headline, and spelled out in our January 20 statement, and what was a main demand of a January 22 demonstration that we helped organize and participated in, was the demand that the U.S./U.N. “Stop Blocking Aid to Haitian People.” Of course, the Workers Vanguard article never mentions this, and for good reason, since it is counting on its readers not reading IG publications. In fact, it is precisely “the desperate Haitian masses” who are and will be in the crosshairs of the U.S. imperialist occupiers whose presence the Spartacist League is openly supporting and prettifying.

WV really hits its stride in denouncing “the IG’s deranged and grotesque fantasies.” And what might those be? Why our statement that Haiti’s “small but militant proletariat can place itself at the head of the impoverished urban and rural masses seeking to organize their own power,” of course. This, says the SL, ignores the “stark reality” that “even before the earthquake, there was virtually no working class in Haiti.” Do tell. In the most recent issue of The Internationalist (No. 30, November-December 2009), we published an article, “Haiti: Battle Over Starvation Wages and Neocolonial Occupation,” with a big photo showing a demonstration of thousands of workers from one of the free trade zones in the capital marching on parliament. According to WV those workers don’t exist, and therefore to call on them to lead a struggle for power is a “grotesque fantasy.” So who are you going to believe, the pseudo-socialist savants of the SL or “your lying eyes,” as the comedian Richard Pryor used to quip.

Now there are several things to be said about this. First, WV is simply regurgitating here the bourgeois press, which always presents Haiti as nothing but one big slum filled with jobless poor people, beggars, thieves, “looters,” you name it. Second, Haiti has now joined a growing list of places where, according to the SL, there is no working class. It started off with Bolivia in 2005, then came Oaxaca in 2006, now Haiti in 2010. Who’s next? Third, in each case the SL proclaims there is no proletariat in country x just when there are explosive workers struggles there. Those Bolivian miners leading mass marches while setting off sticks of dynamite, those Oaxacan teachers and government workers who set up hundreds of barricades to stop the death squads, those Haitian workers who shut down the factories to march on parliament – you may have seen pictures of them in The Internationalist, but they’re all figments of the IG’s fertile imagination, so says WV.

Finally, and most importantly, the purpose of this discovery of the supposed absence of a working class is to proclaim that workers revolution is impossible. In detective novels or criminal trials, a key question is always: cui bono, who benefits from the crime? In politics, you should always look for the programmatic conclusion of an analysis. Example: When in 1948 one Tony Cliff abandoned the Trotskyist analysis of the Soviet Union under Stalin as a degenerated workers state and instead labeled the USSR “state capitalist,” it explained nothing about the functioning of the Soviet economy. But it did serve as an argument for refusing to defend the Soviet Union in the imperialist-launched Cold War. The latter-day Spartacist League has been multiplying its analyses, always couched in Marxistical-sounding verbiage, purporting to prove that one can’t struggle for revolution in the here and now. To do so, they claim, is both “deranged and grotesque.” The heat behind these lurid adjectives is telling. At war with its own Trotskyist past, the SL spews rage and venom at the IG for refusing to abandon fundamental Marxist principles that the SL itself used to uphold. Self-proclaimed “revolutionaries” who preach that revolution is off the agenda during this historical period, they are in a real bind.

In the advanced capitalist countries, the SL proclaimed in its 1998 revised program, there has supposedly been a qualitative regression in working-class consciousness as a result of the counterrevolutionary destruction of the Soviet Union. To say, as Trotsky did in the Transitional Program, that the crisis of proletarian leadership is the key is outdated, according to the SL, which imitating a long line of revisionists says the problem is the working class itself. In desperately poor semi-colonial countries the reason one can’t fight for revolution is that there is supposedly no working class. And in the more developed “Third World” countries like Mexico, which undeniably has a proletariat since it is now producing many of the goods formerly churned out by industries in what is now the U.S. “Rust Belt,” the proletariat is allegedly so befuddled by bourgeois nationalism that it can’t even get it together to have a plain old popular front, much less wage a struggle for power. Three different analyses, one conclusion: no fight for revolution – and it’s all the workers’ fault. So saith the SL.

We will have more to say on this in commenting on the SL’s latest conference.

WV throws in a quote from Leon Trotsky about not interfering with soldiers extinguishing a fire or rescuing drowning people during a flood. But Trotsky was explicitly talking of a “national” army, not an imperialist invasion force. When U.S. troops go to Fargo to put sandbags along the raging Red River, are they invading or occupying North Dakota? Hardly.

Skipping over some of the insults (the IG’s “demented logic”) and pure inventions (our supposed “glorification of Third World nationalism”), this brings us the SL’s feigned interest in the Haitian diaspora, the workers who over a period of decades have dispersed to other countries to escape desperate conditions in Haiti. “The IG’s article does not even mention the hundreds of thousands of Haitian workers in the urban centers of North America.” This is an example of the SL’s patented form of gotcha politics: to go over articles with a fine-toothed comb to discover what’s left out, and then portray that as a deviation. In the present case, they fail to mention that a second article on Haiti in the same special issue of The Internationalist, also available at our Internet site www.internationalist.org (http://www.internationalist.org/), concludes with a paragraph precisely on the importance of Haitian and Dominican workers in the U.S. and New York City in particular.

The fact is that the Internationalist Group has been unique on the left, especially for a small group, in actively working with Haitians in the diaspora in a systematic way to protest the repression of Haitians by the government of the Dominican Republic (see “Stop Persecution of Haitian Workers in the Dominican Republic!” and several other articles in The Internationalist No. 23, April-May 2006 (http://www.internationalist.org/haitiandominicanpersecution0601.html)). We have regularly participated in protests every month for the last four years, and played a leading role in organizing a joint demonstration of Haitian and Dominican groups over that issue in front of the Dominican consulate in NYC in August 2008 (see “New York Protest Against Persecution of Haitian Workers in the Dominican Republic” in The Internationalist No. 28, March-Aptril 2009 (http://www.internationalist.org/nycprotesthaitiansdr0808.html)). The Spartacist League has never once done anything about this, zero. And when there were protests about the NYPD torture of Haitian immigrant Abner Louima in 1997, we recall how the SL showed up briefly to sell at the starting point and then quickly exited because they considered it too dangerous to march through the Haitian community to the police precinct, even though hundreds of Haitian immigrants (many of them presumably undocumented) dared to do so.

The SL/ICL’s position of supporting U.S. intervention in Haiti confirms what we have said for some time, that they are headed in the direction of becoming a variant of social democracy. Add up its refusal to call for independence for Puerto Rico (and the French colonies in the Caribbean), its persistent silence on the Honduras coup, and now its support for the U.S. imperialist reoccupation of Haiti in the guise of humanitarianism, throw in its ever-expanding list of countries that supposedly have no proletariat, and you get the profile of centrist social democrats similar to the Italian G.M. Serrati. At the Second Congress of the Communist International in 1920 Serrati rejected Lenin’s theses on the national and colonial question. The “maximalist” socialist claimed to be for proletarian revolution in the advanced capitalist countries but dismissed any support to struggles for national liberation in the colonial and semi-colonial countries. It’s centrism, but hardly of a left variety.

This step also fits the pattern of many of the SL/ICL's recent programmatic revisions, coming in the middle of a crisis when they cede to the pressure of the bourgeoisie: in 1997, proclaiming that there was no, and could not be any, popular front in Mexico just at the point that the popular front was about to take over the Mexico City government; in 1998, in the middle of the Puerto Rican general strike declaring that the SL no longer called for the island’s independence from the U.S.; in 2001, during the U.S. invasion of Afghanistan, dropping the call for the defeat of one’s own imperialist bourgeoisie; in 2002, dropping the call for “hot cargoing” war materiel during the build-up to the Iraq invasion and when the U.S. government threatened to militarize the West Coast docks, etc. Who knows where they will end up? Some of the SL/ICL’s revisions, such as its on-again, off-again claim that the Stalinists “led the counterrevolution” in East Germany, bear an unmistakable stamp of Shachtmanism. Max Shachtman broke with Trotskyism over his refusal to defend the Soviet Union in World War II and ended up embracing U.S. imperialism in the Korean War and over the Bay of Pigs invasion in 1960.

Supporting the new U.S. occupation of Haiti on allegedly humanitarian grounds is shameful and significant, but it cannot be a surprise coming from the SL/ICL which at the height of the post-9/11 war hysteria accused the IG of anti-Americanism (literally, “Playing the Counterfeit Card of Anti-Americanism” and allegedly pandering to “‘Third World’ nationalists for whom the ‘only good American is a dead American’”) because of our insistence on upholding Lenin and Trotsky’s program of revolutionary defeatism in imperialist war. The harsh and undeniable reality is that today the SL is playing the liberal card of supposed humanitarianism to justify open support to military occupation of the land of Toussaint Louverture by the most dangerous, violent and bestial gang of imperialist looters, torturers and mass murderers on the face of the planet. Those who believe revolution is not just an empty word can draw their own conclusions. ■

Q
31st January 2010, 18:51
Sorry, weren't you a spart? I always thought you were :blushing:

Martin Blank
31st January 2010, 19:25
If these quotes are accurate -- and I don't have any reason to doubt they are -- then the Spartacist chickens have finally come home to roost (no pun intended -- well, OK, maybe a little intended). This seems like the application of the Seymour/Robertson line about areas of the American Midwest being nothing more than "lumpenized ghettos" applied on an international scale. They used that line to justify abstention from political work (and the destruction of most of their labor union caucuses) in areas like Detroit, Cleveland and other formerly industrial cities, effectively leaving them to the tender mercies of the capitalist state and their reformist charlatans. Now Haiti is the latest "lumpenized ghetto" deserving of such treatment, according to the SL/ICL.

I don't see how they are going to cover this one. To this day, they are still suffering from their refusal to call for defeat of imperialism in Afghanistan after 9/11. This could put the nail in the proverbial coffin as they descend full-speed into social-imperialism.

I'd be curious to know how much of this position is a result of the "new line" coming out of the latest Spartacist conference. It really seems like the spat between Seymour and Alexander is being forced into a split in the ICL at this point. This article smacks of the same rhetorical provocations they used against the ET ("Fly! Fly! Fly!") and IG ("We Could Have Led the Political Revolution in the DDR!") in the past.

Martin Blank
31st January 2010, 19:26
Sorry, weren't you a spart? I always thought you were :blushing:

Fred has been a supporter of the IG/LFI for a while, Q -- a very erstwhile one at that.

Kassad
31st January 2010, 21:30
It's not like they had any respect from me that was left to lose...

KurtFF8
1st February 2010, 20:24
The SL seems quite irrelevant though. I was at the HM conference in NYC last month and they interrupted many of the workshops I went to with empty rhetoric attacking the ISO for things like "not supporting NAMBLA"...

Quite an interesting group...

Q
1st February 2010, 21:12
The SL seems quite irrelevant though. I was at the HM conference in NYC last month and they interrupted many of the workshops I went to with empty rhetoric attacking the ISO for things like "not supporting NAMBLA"...

Quite an interesting group...
They are irrelevant. But there is a methodology to why they work in the crazy way they do, John Sullivan described it very well (http://www.marxists.org/history/etol/critiques/sullivan/pub-5sparts.html). Incidentally, the reason the Internationalist Group spends to so much effort with the Sparts is because they are a split from it (hence my earlier confusion) and now the IG views the Sparts as an "Ostensibly Revolutionary Group" in classic Spart style,

Kassad
1st February 2010, 22:10
They are irrelevant. But there is a methodology to why they work in the crazy way they do, John Sullivan described it very well (http://www.marxists.org/history/etol/critiques/sullivan/pub-5sparts.html). Incidentally, the reason the Internationalist Group spends to so much effort with the Sparts is because they are a split from it (hence my earlier confusion) and now the IG views the Sparts as an "Ostensibly Revolutionary Group" in classic Spart style,

Exactly. They were small enough before the splits. Now the Spartacist League, the Internationalist Group and the International Bolshevik Tendency, despite the respect I have for some of their politics, are microscopic in numbers.

fredbergen
2nd February 2010, 03:46
Numbers of what? For what?

Relevant to whom? To what class?

Whether or not the workers take power is not going to be decided based on the relative magnitude of tens versus thousands. What's needed is a fight for political clarity. This is of the utmost relevance, to Marxists, and ultimately, to the working class and to the future of the human race.

On the other hand, to those for whom this struggle is just the fodder for internet chuckle-fests, it's all idle chit-chat and guessing games about numbers and "splits." And for someone who professes such scorn for the Spartacist League, Kassad, it's indicative of your overall lack of seriousness that you then repeat the ICL's lie that the founders of the Internationalist Group "split" from the ICL, when in fact they were bureaucratically purged in 1996 as the ICL, imbibing the bourgeoisie's triumphalism over the "death of communism," began its drift toward abstentionist, left-talking social democracy.

Kassad
2nd February 2010, 13:03
Numbers of what? For what?

Relevant to whom? To what class?

Whether or not the workers take power is not going to be decided based on the relative magnitude of tens versus thousands. What's needed is a fight for political clarity. This is of the utmost relevance, to Marxists, and ultimately, to the working class and to the future of the human race.

On the other hand, to those for whom this struggle is just the fodder for internet chuckle-fests, it's all idle chit-chat and guessing games about numbers and "splits." And for someone who professes such scorn for the Spartacist League, Kassad, it's indicative of your overall lack of seriousness that you then repeat the ICL's lie that the founders of the Internationalist Group "split" from the ICL, when in fact they were bureaucratically purged in 1996 as the ICL, imbibing the bourgeoisie's triumphalism over the "death of communism," began its drift toward abstentionist, left-talking social democracy.

As far as I can tell, the Internationalist Group does not have members or supporters outside of New York. If you do, your presence is minute. Without widespread support of the working class, no revolutionary socialist party or organization can expect to make any progress. Furthermore, it's very unlikely that during a situation with revolutionary potential, a highly sectarian and divisive group will ever gain the support of the proletariat. The Spartacist League and all of its ideological predecessors have been promoting the same general line and tactics since what, the 1970's? And your numbers are still incredibly tiny. What does that say about your relevance to working class politics?

I apologize for incorrectly stating how the Internationalist Group was founded. I'm not "supporting" the International Communist League's politics by making a statement that I phrased incorrectly. I'm aware that you were expelled from the Spartacist League, notably Workers Vanguard's former editor, Jan Norden. However, the Trotskyist movement is so divided and fragmented at this point that if any kind of revolutionary situation did arise, Trotskyist forces would be left on the sidelines like they have in many of the other struggles for revolutionary change. Until you can prove to me that you can obtain widespread support of the proletariat, which you have yet to do, I will consistently point out that you are an irrelevant force on the left.

jake williams
2nd February 2010, 17:03
I was thinking when I saw this that the problem isn't with "Trotskyist politics" per se (at least in most cases, and insofar as they explain this phenomenon), but that there are so goddamned many groups that on any given topic one of them has a really really weird position. The major radical Haiti solidarity organization in Montreal has lots of Trots in and around it, and it's really really solid.

fredbergen
2nd February 2010, 18:25
Well Kassad you agree with the SL/ICL more than you would like to admit: the SL agrees that due to the "qualitative retrogression in consciousness" of the workers, Marxism is no longer relevant to class struggles today. But it has already been proven that the working class will accept the revolutionary Marxist program and make it their weapon in the struggle for power, so long as there are those willing to swim against the stream of bourgeois "public opinion" and fight for that program. That proof is called October 1917, and the Internationalist Group stands on that tradition. Then and now, there have always been many who would rather chase after endless alliances with "progressive" enemies of the working class, from the capitalist theocratic regime in Iran to the pro-imperialist union bureaucracy in the U.S. You have the numbers -- but as I asked before, numbers of what? For what?

Kassad
2nd February 2010, 19:45
Well Kassad you agree with the SL/ICL more than you would like to admit: the SL agrees that due to the "qualitative retrogression in consciousness" of the workers, Marxism is no longer relevant to class struggles today. But it has already been proven that the working class will accept the revolutionary Marxist program and make it their weapon in the struggle for power, so long as there are those willing to swim against the stream of bourgeois "public opinion" and fight for that program. That proof is called October 1917, and the Internationalist Group stands on that tradition. Then and now, there have always been many who would rather chase after endless alliances with "progressive" enemies of the working class, from the capitalist theocratic regime in Iran to the pro-imperialist union bureaucracy in the U.S. You have the numbers -- but as I asked before, numbers of what? For what?

You leave out several key points. Firstly, I don't know where you've developed the concept that I believe Marxism is 'no longer relevant' to the working class today. If anything, Marxism has gained more relevance as time has gone on, as it is a scientific means of analyzing different aspects of society. However, due to the fact that the bourgeois state is efficient when it comes to maintaining control over the minds of those it enslaves, the bourgeois media and its state apparatus have managed to keep a strict control over the current political system. If you consider this control as meaning Marxism is irrelevant, go ahead, but that's pretty odd.

On the topic of numbers, your organization is very small. Its only branch is in New York and I'm pretty confident that is the only place the Internationalist Group operates. Because of your lack of relevance and influence in working class struggles, you are irrelevant to the proletariat. Other organizations that have more widespread support, such as my party, are able to engage in a multitude of workers struggles and gain a solid base of dedicated cadres and members. We have branches all across the country and that's why we're growing very fast. We have more potential to win victories for the proletariat because we are active in struggle, whereas you spend most of your time and resources attacking other leftist forces. Our members are dedicated working class individuals from all different backgrounds and struggles and we have a growing influence in the proletarian struggle in the United States. That's why we get things done. That's why you do not.

Convince me that should a revolutionary situation arise, you will be the ones ready to guide it. Convince me that you even have the resources. For that matter, convince me that in the next few years, you will be able to muster up support nationwide, as opposed to just a single city. You can't, and that's the point.

Kassad
3rd February 2010, 19:20
I just read the Spartacist League's new issue of Workers Vanguard. It's astonishing how they acknowledge how imperialism, especially American imperialism, does nothing to benefit nations in need. In fact, it causes more destruction because imperialism is meant to dominate, not assist those who need help. Then, a few paragraphs later, they say that colonial occupation is necessary? It's almost like the same article was written by two different writers with opposing viewpoints. Weird stuff from the Spartacists.

RED DAVE
3rd February 2010, 23:55
The SL seems quite irrelevant though. I was at the HM conference in NYC last month and they interrupted many of the workshops I went to with empty rhetoric attacking the ISO for things like "not supporting NAMBLA"...

Quite an interesting group...This is an old tactic of theirs. I remember at a a NYC-wide political conclave of many political groups, I witnessed a Spart trying to bust up a meeting in the same way. He had to be removed from the room by force.

And I have a vague memory of a Spart in the mid-60s referring to what most of the Left referred to as The Detroit Uprising as a race riot.

Bullshit artists.

RED DAVE

Q
4th February 2010, 00:10
This is an old tactic of theirs. I remember at a a NYC-wide political conclave of many political groups, I witnessed a Spart trying to bust up a meeting in the same way. He had to be removed from the room by force.

And I have a vague memory of a Spart in the mid-60s referring to what most of the Left referred to as The Detroit Uprising as a race riot.

Bullshit artists.

RED DAVE

The tactic being that they try to win sympathy from members of other organisations by being removed from meetings. I again point to John Sullivan's article I linked to earlier which explains it in detail.

Kassad
4th February 2010, 00:13
Honestly, I don't think they actually recruit anyone besides the sparse amount of members they siphon from other parties. The Spartacist League and all of its ideological heirs all subscribe to the 'crisis in leadership' theories that Trotsky sort of put forward in the Transitional Program. Basically, it means that the proletariat has been revolutionary for well over a century, therefore there is a crisis in revolutionary leadership and "reformist" or "ostensibly left" groups are to blame. Though I do agree with the Spartacist League and all its expulsions/splits on a significant amount of issues, their underlying motives, methods and ideology are bankrupt. They were small and fragmented in the 70's, they're small and fragmented now.

Revy
4th February 2010, 01:22
Here's (http://www.icl-fi.org/english/wv/index.html) the article in question from Workers Vanguard.

LeninistKing
10th February 2010, 05:53
Spartacist League Backs U.S. Imperialist Invasion of Haiti

http://www.internationalist.org/slbackshaitiinvasion1001.html

http://www.internationalist.org/haitiustroopspatrol1001.jpg
U.S. troops from 82nd Airborne Division patrol Haiti’s capital of Port-au-Prince. Aiding the Haitian
people? No, this is imperialist occupation. (Photo: Ramón Espinosa/AP)


<DIV style="TEXT-ALIGN: center"><DIV class=Section1><DIV style="TEXT-ALIGN: left">

<SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">The latest issue of Workers Vanguard (No. 951, 29 January 2010), newspaper of the Spartacist League/U.S., has a front-page story, “Haiti Earthquake Horror: Imperialism, Racism and Starvation,” that supports the presence of United States and United Nations occupation troops in Haiti. WV buys the U.S. rulers’ cover story for their latest invasion as supposedly aiding the desperate Haitian masses left homeless, hungry and in dire need of medical attention in the wake of the devastating January 12 earthquake that demolished the Haitian capital of Port-au-Prince and surrounding areas. The article ends with an apoplectic attack on the Internationalist Group for exposing the imperialist lies and demanding “U.S./U.N. Forces Get Out!” We have here a classic example of the term Lenin coined during World War I: “social-imperialism,” which he applied to those who espouse socialism in the abstract while supporting imperialism in practice. Then as now, its practitioners launch virulent attacks on revolutionaries for actually standing against their “own” imperialist rulers.

Bitter Ashes
10th February 2010, 15:05
Well, we all knew they were a bit nuts...

LeninistKing
10th February 2010, 16:38
You, know many progressive-liberals in the USA supported Bushs War on Irak. And many progressive democrats believe in the thesis of "War on Terror", which is not really a war against terrorism in the Middle East. But a war on behalf of Israel, and a war for oil and geopolitical purposes.

.



Well, we all knew they were a bit nuts...

LeninistKing
12th February 2010, 03:35
Hello, i didn't know that there was a workers party in USA. Any way thanks for those cool links. The Party for Workers in USA need more advertising and propaganda so that more people would get to know it

.


If these quotes are accurate -- and I don't have any reason to doubt they are -- then the Spartacist chickens have finally come home to roost (no pun intended -- well, OK, maybe a little intended). This seems like the application of the Seymour/Robertson line about areas of the American Midwest being nothing more than "lumpenized ghettos" applied on an international scale. They used that line to justify abstention from political work (and the destruction of most of their labor union caucuses) in areas like Detroit, Cleveland and other formerly industrial cities, effectively leaving them to the tender mercies of the capitalist state and their reformist charlatans. Now Haiti is the latest "lumpenized ghetto" deserving of such treatment, according to the SL/ICL.

I don't see how they are going to cover this one. To this day, they are still suffering from their refusal to call for defeat of imperialism in Afghanistan after 9/11. This could put the nail in the proverbial coffin as they descend full-speed into social-imperialism.

I'd be curious to know how much of this position is a result of the "new line" coming out of the latest Spartacist conference. It really seems like the spat between Seymour and Alexander is being forced into a split in the ICL at this point. This article smacks of the same rhetorical provocations they used against the ET ("Fly! Fly! Fly!") and IG ("We Could Have Led the Political Revolution in the DDR!") in the past.

hardlinecommunist
12th February 2010, 23:41
This does not surprise one bit the Spartacist League has a history of Supporting and backing Imperialist aggression when it cames to poor Non-White Nations such as back in the late 1970s they supported the Social Imperalist Soviet Union when it invaded Afghanistan i

fredbergen
13th February 2010, 04:09
Oh the poor oppressed mullahs and feudal landlords! Oh the poor sorry oppressed, CIA armed and trained, islamist holy warriors, they were so put upon by the Red Army defending a government that let their wives and daughters go to school and show their faces!

The Internationalist Group upholds the Trotskyist program that the Spartacist League has turned its back on, and that includes Hail Red Army in Afghanistan! (http://www.internationalist.org/afghanwomen1001.html)

"Hardline commie" I bet you're so hard core, you voted for Obama!

fredbergen
14th February 2010, 14:40
Even today, some "Marxists" (Spartacist League/ICL) think that imperialism is some kind of humanitarian agency. Others, the reformists (ISO, WWP, PSL, etc.) avoid forthrightly calling for the imperialist occupiers to be driven out of Haiti, and instead "demand" that imperialism do all sorts of nice things for the Haitian people. Rosa knew better...


Rosa Luxemburg: "Martinique" (1902) (http://www.marxists.org/archive/luxemburg/1902/05/15.htm)

Mountains of smoking ruins, heaps of mangled corpses, a steaming, smoking sea of fire wherever you turn, mud and ashes – that is all that remains of the flourishing little city which perched on the rocky slope of the volcano like a fluttering swallow. For some time the angry giant had been heard to rumble and rage against this human presumption, the blind self-conceit of the two-legged dwarfs. Great-hearted even in his wrath, a true giant, he warned the reckless creatures that crawled at his feet. He smoked, spewed out fiery clouds, in his bosom there was seething and boiling and explosions like rifle volleys and cannon thunder. But the lords of the earth, those who ordain human destiny, remained with faith unshaken – in their own wisdom.

On the 7th, the commission dispatched by the government announced to the anxious people of St. Pierre that all was in order in heaven and on earth. All is in order, no cause for alarm! – as they said on the eve of the Oath of the Tennis Court in the dance-intoxicated halls of Louis XVI, while in the crater of the revolutionary volcano fiery lava was gathering for the fearful eruption. All is in order, peace and quiet everywhere! - as they said in Vienna and Berlin on the eve of the March eruption 50 years ago. The old, long-suffering titan of Martinique paid no heed to the reports of the honorable commission: after the people had been reassured by the governor on the 7th, he erupted in the early hours of the 8th and buried in a few minutes the governor, the commission, the people, houses, streets and ships under the fiery exhalation of his indignant heart.

The work was radically thorough. Forty thousand human lives mowed down, a handful of trembling refugees rescued – the old giant can rumble and bubble in peace, he has shown his might, he has fearfully avenged the slight to his primordial power.

And now in the ruins of the annihilated city on Martinique a new guest arrives, unknown, never seen before – the human being. Not lords and bondsmen, not Blacks and whites, not rich and poor, not plantation owners and wage slaves – human beings have appeared on the tiny shattered island, human beings who feel only the pain and see only the disaster, who only want to help and succor. Old Mt. Pelee has worked a miracle! Forgotten are the days of Fashoda, forgotten the conflict over Cuba, forgotten “la Revanche” – the French and the English, the tsar and the Senate of Washington, Germany and Holland donate money, send telegrams, extend the helping hand. A brotherhood of peoples against nature’s burning hatred, a resurrection of humanism on the ruins of human culture. The price of recalling their humanity was high, but thundering Mt. Pelee had a voice to catch their ear.

France weeps over the tiny island’s 40,000 corpses, and the whole world hastens to dry the tears of the Mother Republic. But how was it then, centuries ago, when France spilled blood in torrents for the Lesser and Greater Antilles? In the sea off the east coast of Africa lies a volcanic island – Madagascar: 50 years ago there we saw the disconsolate Republic who weeps for her lost children today, how she bowed the obstinate native people to her yoke with chains and the sword. No volcano opened its crater there: the mouths of French cannons spewed out death and annihilation; French artillery fire swept thousands of flowering human lives from the face of the earth until a free people lay prostrate on the ground, until the brown queen of the “savages” was dragged off as a trophy to the “City of Light.”

On the Asiatic coast, washed by the waves of the ocean, lie the smiling Philippines. Six years ago we saw the benevolent Yankees, we saw the Washington Senate at work there. Not fire-spewing mountains – there, American rifles mowed down human lives in heaps; the sugar cartel Senate which today sends golden dollars to Martinique, thousands upon thousands, to coax life back from the ruins, sent cannon upon cannon, warship upon warship, golden dollars millions upon millions to Cuba, to sow death and devastation.

Yesterday, today – far off in the African south, where only a few years ago a tranquil little people lived by their labor and in peace, there we saw how the English wreak havoc, these same Englishmen who in Martinique save the mother her children and the children their parents: there we saw them stamp on human bodies, on children’s corpses with brutal soldiers’ boots, wading in pools of blood, death and misery before them and behind.

Ah, and the Russians, the rescuing, helping, weeping Tsar of All the Russians – an old acquaintance! We have seen you on the camparts of Praga, where warm Polish blood flowed in streams and turned the sky red with its steam. But those were the old days. No! Now, only a few weeks ago, we have seen you benevolent Russians on your dusty highways, in ruined Russian villages eye to eye with the ragged, wildly agitated, grumbling mob; gunfire rattled, gasping muzhiks fell to the earth, red peasant blood mingled with the dust of the highway. They must die, they must fall because their bodies doubled up with hunger, because they cried out for bread, for bread!

And we have seen you too, oh Mother Republic, you tear-distiller. It was on May 23 of 1871: the glorious spring sun shone down on Paris; thousands of pale human beings in working clothes stood packed together in the streets, in prison courtyards, body to body and head to head; through loopholes in the walls, mitrailleuses thrust their bloodthirsty muzzles. No volcano erupted, no lava stream poured down. Your cannons, Mother Republic, were turned on the tight-packed crowd, screams of pain rent the air – over 20,000 corpses covered the pavements of Paris!

And all of you – whether French and English, Russians and Germans, Italians and Americans – we have seen you all together once before in brotherly accord, united in a great league of nations, helping and guiding each other: it was in China. There too you forgot all quarrels among yourselves, there too you made a peace of peoples – for mutual murder and the torch. Ha, how the pigtails fell in rows before your bullets, like a ripe grainfield lashed by the hail! Ha, how the wailing women plunged into the water, their dead in their cold arms, fleeing the tortures of your ardent embraces!

And now they have all turned to Martinique, all one heart and one mind again; they help, rescue, dry the tears and curse the havoc-wreaking volcano. Mt. Pelee, great-hearted giant, you can laugh; you can look down in loathing at these benevolent murderers, at these weeping carnivores, at these beasts in Samaritan’s clothing. But a day will come when another volcano lifts its voice of thunder: a volcano that is seething and boiling, whether you need it or not, and will sweep the whole sanctimonious, blood-splattered culture from the face of the earth. And only on its ruins will the nations come together in true humanity, which will know but one deadly foe – blind, dead nature.

TheCultofAbeLincoln
14th February 2010, 23:44
The "earthquake" you're refering to was actually a 50-megaton nuclear warhead planted deep under Haiti by teams of divers working out of the USS Ohio, an SSGN submarine. The whole thing was actually planned, the tens of thousands of deaths are the real cover story.


Anyways, back to reality, soldiers are needed to distribute aid and protect forign aid workers. There are only 5000 soldiers/marines in Haiti (aka a brigade), and a significant portion are medics who are also assisting at field hospitals. There was a very weak Haitian infrastructure to begin with, after the quake it's practically non-existent. With an aircraft carrier moving thousands of tons of food, medical equipment, temporary shelters, personnel, as well as aircraft for moving severely wounded off the island to a hospital in another country or the USNS Comfort, which is another huge vessel, there is going to need to be organization, or else we'd all be criticizing a horrible US aid response right now instead.

The carrier (the USS Carl Vinson, I believe) alone is going to bring an entire fleet along with it, because the fleet always protects the carrier. Obviously the Haitian government is willing to accept that in exchange for allowing the largest aid donor easy access. If you can find an alternative to distributing aid-- that would be more effective than having the massive fucking military that is designed to move tens of thousands of tons across the world (malnutrition is not a problem for US soldiers in Afghanistan), then please share.

That said, if there is still a US military prescence in Haiti outside of the embassy in a month or two, things will be entirely different. But right now they were invited in by the government of Haiti and are not there illegally, and may actually be doing some good.


edit: and regarding the caption to the photo, "imperialist occupation" should be replaced with "imperialist vacation." Soldiers don't sit on the hood of their humvee, in a populated area of an occupied capital discussing their problems keeping the miller lite cold in an occupation.

chegitz guevara
15th February 2010, 16:06
Does anyone really care what the Sparticists say? More importantly, does anyone really care what a split from the Sparts says?

fredbergen
15th February 2010, 16:25
Political questions are important to revolutionary Marxists. And despite your non-sectarian sectarian jabs, a lot more people read and pay attention to Workers Vanguard and The Internationalist than read ... I can't even remember what the SPUSA's magazine is called, does anyone bother to read it?

If you don't take politics seriously, you might end up with a "socialist" party that runs a presidential candidate who opposes abortion rights (SP-USA 2004), or another presidential candidate who brags in his campaign material about his role in organizing anti-immigrant vigilantes (SP-USA 2008), or a congressional candidate who retails the prosecution's frame-up charges against innocent class-war political prisoner Mumia Abu-Jamal (you, now). But hey, who cares....

chegitz guevara
15th February 2010, 17:04
Yeah, my paper is a piece of social democratic crap which no one reads, let alone finds important enough to argue with. So? I don't post the latest SPUSA attacks on some other group ... because we don't make them.

What does that have to do with the fact that no one cares about your attack on the Sparts, or its utter irrelevance to making a revolution in the United States? Instead of attacking the Sparts, or attacking me for defending the right of Black men to kill racist killer cops, why don't you find a way to move the struggle forward, comrade?

Ignore the Sparts. Move on with your lives. You've been divorced for over a decade. Find someone else. We're over the drama.

fredbergen
15th February 2010, 17:15
The number one reason that the Bolsheviks were able to lead the revolution was political: unlike all the other ostensible revolutionaries, they opposed their own bourgeoisie in the war. They did not buy the rationale after February that the war was a defense of "socialism" or "revolution" just because a "leftist" government was administering the capitalist state.

Now many supposed "revolutionaries" are supporting their "own" imperialists in a war because they have bought into the lie that it is a war for "humanitarian aid." Building a revolutionary party requires combating these illusions, especially in their most sophisticated, most left-sounding form, i.e. Workers Vanguard.

But hey, who cares? You've stooped to the level of slandering Mumia while he's facing the threat of execution for the crime you and the prosecution say he committed, so who cares whether socialists should take the side of Haiti, or U.S. Imperialism ... get over it, man! It's just imperialism and racism and colonialism... who cares! Now the latest petition drive to run in the bourgeois elections on a reformist platform: that's important, comrade!

cmdrdeathguts
15th February 2010, 17:33
Does anyone really care what the Sparticists say? More importantly, does anyone really care what a split from the Sparts says?
Yes.

Firstly, it's not just the Sparts - it's the AWL, it's the liberal imperialists, it's innumerable wide-eyed naifs yet to be disillusioned about this stuff. The Sparts' argument is almost the same as the one I read on the AWL website; it is certainly shared by NGO types who don't care about all this 'politics' nonsense and just want someone to Do Something. The IG, to their credit, have done a point by point demolition of all the bullshit you've heard about Haiti in your life. Cherish it, as well as the fun of the Sparts straying so comically far from orthodoxy. how the high and mighty have fallen.

Secondly, the Sparts are one of a great many groups competing for the authentic legacy of Trotsky, which add up to quite a number, by the left's dismal standards. these are the kind of arguments you're going to face, and if you want to defend yourself with any efficiency, you're going to have to brush up on this stuff. We're all swimming in the same fetid little pond here.

chegitz guevara
15th February 2010, 17:39
Other than you, I have never met another person in the world who cares what the Sparts say.

Honestly, comrade, there are a lot of positive contributions you could be making to discussions. All you do is come in and attack. Often not even accurately.

For example, your description of my views on Mumia is an out right lie. Show where I have ever retails the state's claims on Mumia. I claim justifiable homicide. They claim murder. I argue that people have the right to kill brutal racist cops. You won't defend it. I believe that people have the right to engage in self-defense. Yet, you keep lying and saying I'm parroting the prosecution, and you know it.

If people pay attention to you and the Sparts, it's only for the same reason people slow down to look at car accidents.

As for the authentic legacy of Trotsky, y'all can have it. He's dead. His movement was hopeless moribund in is life time and it has only grown more sterile and useless since. Trotsky was a comrade, not a prophet. Let the dogma go, so you can actually mine what is valuable from Trotsky, and let the bad shit go.

And you can have the last word.

fredbergen
15th February 2010, 17:59
The authentic legacy of Trotsky is the October revolution. The authentic legacy of social-democratic dilettantism is betrayal after betrayal.

Mumia is innocent. He did not shoot police officer Faulkner. Another man confessed. Witnesses saw the killers flee the scene. The cops and courts framed Mumia at every step. This, the truth, is very important. Communists support the right of oppressed people to defend themselves against the police -- but you spit on Mumia's actual defense right now. You repeat the same lies as the prosecution while adding your hypocritical, irrelevant, wholly invented "self-defense" quibble. Truth matters. Lies matter. You lie, and your lies, whatever rationalization you give them, are doing your sordid little part in the racist lynching an innocent man. And only a "non-sectarian" non-polemical white man's "socialist" party would have a member and spokesperson like you.

Kassad
15th February 2010, 23:07
Chegitz Guevara, I'd advise you to save yourself some time and just get out of this thread as soon as possible. Fredbergen, along with his entire irrelevant and ideologically warped organization stopped listening to logic a long time ago. He is convinced that my party, the Party for Socialism and Liberation, does not demand the immediate withdrawl of US/UN forces from Haiti, despite our clear demands for an end to the colonial occupation and imperialist intervention. The current state of revolutionary Trotskyism is downright pathetic, with much of the movement advocating liberalism and the other ones, such as the Spartacists and the Internationalist Group, are so sectarian, hostile and delusional that they've stopped listening to facts.

If anything, it's best to confront their ideology when needed, but avoid them at all costs besides that. I'm just hoping I never have to see any of them in my area.

Kassad
16th February 2010, 01:28
Merged threads on the same topic.

cmdrdeathguts
16th February 2010, 15:54
IBT's statement, with some eyewitness reports of Spart shamefacedness:

http://www.bolshevik.org/statements/2010-02-08Haiti.html

Lenny Nista
16th February 2010, 16:51
Left-covering for the occupation of Hati seems in line with left-covering for Zionism and paedophilia. Congrats to the Sparts for their consistency.

fredbergen
16th February 2010, 18:25
"Left covering for paedophilia"? Communists are against state interference in sexual relations characterized by effective consent. If two or more people want to have sex with each other that's their business and nobody else's. More like you're pledging allegiance to the bourgeois order, to repressive hypocritical bourgeois morality, and to capitalist "family values." And prove that the SL supported zionism when it was a revolutionary organization, or that the IG does now.

Kassad
16th February 2010, 18:40
"Left covering for paedophilia"? Communists are against state interference in sexual relations characterized by effective consent. If two or more people want to have sex with each other that's their business and nobody else's. More like you're pledging allegiance to the bourgeois order, to repressive hypocritical bourgeois morality, and to capitalist "family values." And prove that the SL supported zionism when it was a revolutionary organization, or that the IG does now.

Family values? Now it's 'family values' for realizing that it may not be difficult for a 40 year old man to somehow convince a young, naive 7 year old girl to let him stick it to her? Because it's 'family values' for suggesting that a pre-sexually developed human being should at least be given the protection of society to make sure they are not sexually assaulted and traumatized? Do you think any grown woman in her 20's or 30's is going to look back on having sex with a grown man when she was 9 and go 'it was a good idea'? I wish I could ban you right now because you and your organization are twisted and it shames me to see that you consider yourself communists. These are fucking children who have not even sexually developed yet. Go back to your NAMBLA meeting with the rest of your Spartacist comrades because frankly, I am done listening to your irrelevant babble.

Lenny Nista
16th February 2010, 18:46
"Left covering for paedophilia"? Communists are against state interference in sexual relations characterized by effective consent. If two or more people want to have sex with each other that's their business and nobody else's. More like you're pledging allegiance to the bourgeois order, to repressive hypocritical bourgeois morality, and to capitalist "family values."

Communists are against state legislation of people's sex lives, but we don't actively stand for the legalization of rape, statutory or otherwise. We are also against the bourgeois repressive forces but that doesn't mean we stand for the legalization of criminal activity that harms working people.


And prove that the SL supported zionism when it was a revolutionary organization, or that the IG does now

I didn't say the IG does.

fredbergen
16th February 2010, 18:50
If there is effective consent, that is, if both parties have a general idea of what's involved and freely consent, then it's their right to have sex! Who are you and the cops and the church to say otherwise?

Kassad
16th February 2010, 18:54
If there is effective consent, that is, if both parties have a general idea of what's involved and freely consent, then it's their right to have sex! Who are you and the cops and the church to say otherwise?

Like I said, and you refused to address, if a 50 year old man convinces a 6 year old that it will be "fun" and it will "feel great" and she succumbs to it, is that consent? A pre-sexual human being having their mind manipulated by a sexually mature human being to convince them to have sex is repulsive because it's another example of a way that a man can manipulate a woman as a sexual object. I've never heard a "communist" advocate such a repulsive breach on the rights of women and children.

Lenny Nista
16th February 2010, 18:57
If there is effective consent, that is, if both parties have a general idea of what's involved and freely consent, then it's their right to have sex! Who are you and the cops and the church to say otherwise?

I could use the same logic to defend child labour.

And also how the hell are children supposed to "consent freely" to sex when they 1.)are not sexually developed physically or psychologically and 2.)are not "free citiziens", but dependent on adults, as even all but the most insane "libetarians" recognize?

fredbergen
16th February 2010, 19:07
Well in your hypothetical Kassad, it sounds like there was not effective consent because the girl does not have a basic understanding of what's involved. But there is no universal age or age difference that guarantees or excludes the capacity to make decisions about sexuality, and to leave that determination in advance to the old men wearing robes and badges is truly perverse.

Rosa Lichtenstein
16th February 2010, 19:12
They also supported the imperialist invasion of Afghanistan by the 'red' army, so this is no surprise.

Lenny Nista
16th February 2010, 19:15
They also supported the imperialist invasion of Afghanistan by the 'red' army, so this is no surprise.

And the IS supported the CIA funded, Saudi led "resistance" which had been carrying out guerrilla attacks on the secular military dictatorship since before the invasion.

fredbergen
16th February 2010, 19:18
wow Lenny you must really hate sex to compare it to labor! No, the analogy does not hold because Marxists understand that work under capitalism is a compulsory chore done under the threat of destitution. Whereas, contrary to your reactionary Victorian family values, sex is a pleasurable activity (that's why people do it). And if both people choose to do it for pleasure, what right do you or your god or your state have to say otherwise?

Kassad
16th February 2010, 19:29
They also supported the imperialist invasion of Afghanistan by the 'red' army, so this is no surprise.

And most liberals and fake Marxists hailed the US-funded resistance and the reactionary Islamic forces that sought to combat such things as quality education and women's rights. The International Socialist Tendency gladly hailed the Mujahideen, just as they hailed the destruction of the Soviet Union.

Lenny Nista
16th February 2010, 19:41
wow Lenny you must really hate sex to compare it to labor! No, the analogy does not hold because Marxists understand that work under capitalism is a compulsory chore done under the threat of destitution. Whereas, contrary to your reactionary Victorian family values, sex is a pleasurable activity (that's why people do it). And if both people choose to do it for pleasure, what right do you or your god or your state have to say otherwise?

The issue was about your logic regarding consent in a circumstance where parties are clearly not equal, not regarding labour. We don't live in a society where children are "free", we live in a society where children are subordinated to adults via the family unit, and essentially at their mercy. This is why the concept of "statutory rape" exists.

And please stop implying that I am religious.

fredbergen
16th February 2010, 19:51
So Lenny I take it you accept the laws of the patriarchal family then? Since in "our" society the parents own the children until they're 18, should teenagers not be allowed to have sex? And since capitalism generally oppresses women and denies them social equality, should heterosexuality be outlawed until after the revolution? What about interracial sex? Or are you giving "left cover" to oppressive, religious bourgeois values?

Lenny Nista
16th February 2010, 20:01
So Lenny I take it you accept the laws of the patriarchal family then? Since in "our" society the parents own the children until they're 18, should teenagers not be allowed to have sex? And since capitalism generally oppresses women and denies them social equality, should heterosexuality be outlawed until after the revolution? What about interracial sex? Or are you giving "left cover" to oppressive, religious bourgeois values?

Well it's not true in all countries that parents "own" kids until they are 18. In a lot of western Euopean countries people can marry at 16. However you can't compare the dependence of adults onc hildren to any kind of social inequality. Rather, it is a relationship of direct authority of one over the other, more like between a master and slave.

The reason I talked about the dependence of kids on adults, is that it makes a mockery of the idea of "consent", not because it's the only point.

Another difference between the comparison with women and ethnic minorities is that children are not physically or psychologically developed as adults...puberty is generally accepted as the point when humans begin to become sexually mature.

cmdrdeathguts
16th February 2010, 21:42
Well it's not true in all countries that parents "own" kids until they are 18. In a lot of western Euopean countries people can marry at 16. However you can't compare the dependence of adults onc hildren to any kind of social inequality. Rather, it is a relationship of direct authority of one over the other, more like between a master and slave.

The reason I talked about the dependence of kids on adults, is that it makes a mockery of the idea of "consent", not because it's the only point.

Another difference between the comparison with women and ethnic minorities is that children are not physically or psychologically developed as adults...puberty is generally accepted as the point when humans begin to become sexually mature.

It has previously been 'generally accepted' - for large parts of human history in fact - to be a sign of readiness for marriage. I don't think that that form of patriarchy is preferable to the form that assigns parents effective ownership of their children's sexuality. But underlying both positions is the reduction of teenagers to a most peculiar animal, spontaneously forming emotionally complex sexual bonds yet allegedly completely unable to exercise any agency over the process. The truth of 'statutory' is that anyone under the age of consent is only capable of being raped.

The issue of power is superficially important but basically overblown. Some teenagers are cleverer or more machiavellian than others, and thus more able to take advantage of sexual partners. Does this 'inequality' turn sex between psychologically manipulative and psychologically vulnerable teenagers (or adults, for that matter) into a matter for the criminal courts? Increasing numbers of teenagers suffer from mental illness, which interferes with their ability to interact rationally with other people. The potential for abuse is rife - is chastity an answer for these people?

The truth is that any sexual encounter, in class society at least, involves an unequal distribution of power between the participants, who are always-already caught up in more social relationships than they can possibly count. No, the average teenager today no more freely enters into sexual relationships than a worker freely sells his labour power. We do not give this freedom content in the worker's case by deciding who is and is not fit to enter into an exploitative relationship with a capitalist, but by strengthening the position of all with regard to the capitalist class - ultimately reorganising society so that this dull compulsion no longer has any meaning.

And preventing the abuse of vulnerability in sexual relationships cannot be done by 'protecting the children', but by arming them - with practical knowledge of the sex act and its social epiphenomena through sex education, and with the confidence to fulfil themselves sexually. Age of consent laws turn teenagers into objects - we should be turning them into agents.

Lenny Nista
16th February 2010, 22:30
It has previously been 'generally accepted' - for large parts of human history in fact - to be a sign of readiness for marriage. I don't think that that form of patriarchy is preferable to the form that assigns parents effective ownership of their children's sexuality. But underlying both positions is the reduction of teenagers to a most peculiar animal, spontaneously forming emotionally complex sexual bonds yet allegedly completely unable to exercise any agency over the process. The truth of 'statutory' is that anyone under the age of consent is only capable of being raped.

The issue of power is superficially important but basically overblown. Some teenagers are cleverer or more machiavellian than others, and thus more able to take advantage of sexual partners. Does this 'inequality' turn sex between psychologically manipulative and psychologically vulnerable teenagers (or adults, for that matter) into a matter for the criminal courts? Increasing numbers of teenagers suffer from mental illness, which interferes with their ability to interact rationally with other people. The potential for abuse is rife - is chastity an answer for these people?

The truth is that any sexual encounter, in class society at least, involves an unequal distribution of power between the participants, who are always-already caught up in more social relationships than they can possibly count. No, the average teenager today no more freely enters into sexual relationships than a worker freely sells his labour power. We do not give this freedom content in the worker's case by deciding who is and is not fit to enter into an exploitative relationship with a capitalist, but by strengthening the position of all with regard to the capitalist class - ultimately reorganising society so that this dull compulsion no longer has any meaning.

And preventing the abuse of vulnerability in sexual relationships cannot be done by 'protecting the children', but by arming them - with practical knowledge of the sex act and its social epiphenomena through sex education, and with the confidence to fulfil themselves sexually. Age of consent laws turn teenagers into objects - we should be turning them into agents.

Well I was talking more about children than teenagers - which is why I made the point about puberty specifically. ;) Obviously with teenagers it is a greyer area.

Rosa Lichtenstein
17th February 2010, 05:26
Lenny:


And the IS supported the CIA funded, Saudi led "resistance" which had been carrying out guerrilla attacks on the secular military dictatorship since before the invasion.

Can we have a source for this allegation?

Rosa Lichtenstein
17th February 2010, 05:27
Kassad:


And most liberals and fake Marxists hailed the US-funded resistance and the reactionary Islamic forces that sought to combat such things as quality education and women's rights. The International Socialist Tendency gladly hailed the Mujahideen, just as they hailed the destruction of the Soviet Union.

The second allegation is correct, and we are proud of it.

But the first: you will need to provide a source.

Kassad
17th February 2010, 12:33
Kassad:



The second allegation is correct, and we are proud of it.

But the first: you will need to provide a source.

A source? Pretty simple: http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/art.php?id=18929]


When the Soviet Union invaded Afghanistan in 1979 they thought they were in for an easy victory. But they underestimated the power of the resistance, writes Dave Crouch

Emphasis mine. So now Islamic forces funded by the United States are a 'resistance?'

Lenny Nista
17th February 2010, 12:39
The second allegation is correct, and we are proud of it.

The CIA and Bin Laden would be proud of you too.

fredbergen
17th February 2010, 12:48
Well this discussion sure has gone far afield. But I think it has a certain logic to it. With its "critical" support for the imperialist occupation of Haiti, the ICL has taken another major step into the opportunist swamp of anti-Trotskyism. So the response of the lifelong swamp-dwellers here is to air their rightist grievances with some of the aspects of the revolutionary program that the ICL hasn't yet abandoned (or which the swamp-dwellers haven't yet realized that the ICL already has.) Thus the griping by Kassad about the central thesis of the Transitional Program, that "the historical crisis of mankind is reduced to the crisis of the revolutionary leadership" -- actually, the ICL has formally renounced this. And the grand coalition of stalinoids and trotskyoids in defense of bourgeois sexual morality. The message from the swamp creatures is "come deeper, ICL, you're getting there but you aren't completely covered in muck yet!"

Lenny Nista
17th February 2010, 13:41
Well this discussion sure has gone far afield. But I think it has a certain logic to it. With its "critical" support for the imperialist occupation of Haiti, the ICL has taken another major step into the opportunist swamp of anti-Trotskyism. So the response of the lifelong swamp-dwellers here is to air their rightist grievances with some of the aspects of the revolutionary program that the ICL hasn't yet abandoned (or which the swamp-dwellers haven't yet realized that the ICL already has.) Thus the griping by Kassad about the central thesis of the Transitional Program, that "the historical crisis of mankind is reduced to the crisis of the revolutionary leadership" -- actually, the ICL has formally renounced this. And the grand coalition of stalinoids and trotskyoids in defense of bourgeois sexual morality. The message from the swamp creatures is "come deeper, ICL, you're getting there but you aren't completely covered in muck yet!"

It really makes me doubt whether you are serious about winning the political leadership of the vanguard when you class 99% of them as "swamp-dwellers".:rolleyes: Genuine Trotskyists have certainly never had the same petulant attitude towards discussions with centrists.

Kassad
17th February 2010, 15:17
Well this discussion sure has gone far afield. But I think it has a certain logic to it. With its "critical" support for the imperialist occupation of Haiti, the ICL has taken another major step into the opportunist swamp of anti-Trotskyism. So the response of the lifelong swamp-dwellers here is to air their rightist grievances with some of the aspects of the revolutionary program that the ICL hasn't yet abandoned (or which the swamp-dwellers haven't yet realized that the ICL already has.) Thus the griping by Kassad about the central thesis of the Transitional Program, that "the historical crisis of mankind is reduced to the crisis of the revolutionary leadership" -- actually, the ICL has formally renounced this. And the grand coalition of stalinoids and trotskyoids in defense of bourgeois sexual morality. The message from the swamp creatures is "come deeper, ICL, you're getting there but you aren't completely covered in muck yet!"

I don't claim to be a Trotskyist, thus me "griping" with the Transitional Program is totally a part of your imagination. If anything, I'm griping with your irrelevant and tiny group's lack of comprehension of the American proletariat and your total failure to rally class conscious workers to your cause.

Nathanromml
17th February 2010, 17:46
We must gather our supporters at Haiti and repel the American invasion by force!

Kassad
18th February 2010, 17:52
Spartacist League response: http://spartacist.org/english/wv/952/haiti-ig.html

fredbergen
19th February 2010, 13:36
me "griping" with the Transitional Program is totally a part of your imagination.


The Spartacist League and all of its ideological heirs all subscribe to the 'crisis in leadership' theories that Trotsky sort of put forward in the Transitional Program. Basically, it means that the proletariat has been revolutionary for well over a century, therefore there is a crisis in revolutionary leadership and "reformist" or "ostensibly left" groups are to blame.


Trotsky’s assertion in the 1938 Transitional Program that “The world political situation as a whole is chiefly characterized by a historical crisis of the leadership of the proletariat” predates the present deep regression of proletarian consciousness. The reality of this post-Soviet period adds a new dimension to Trotsky’s observation.

To be a reformist it helps to have a short memory.

Kassad
19th February 2010, 15:34
To be a reformist it helps to have a short memory.

You don't get it, do you? I don't care what Trotsky said. If I was a Trotskyist, it'd be a different story. You can quote him all you want, but I find most of his theories to be irrelevant and unrelated to the current class struggle. Start backing up your arguments and stop quoting someone acting like it gives you legitimacy.

khad
5th March 2010, 19:48
The second allegation is correct, and we are proud of it.

But the first: you will need to provide a source.
The immiseration of millions of Afghans who no longer have a state to protect them from warlords and Taliban and the raping of the former USSR by oligarchs and western neoliberals is your prize. Take it and stand proudly with the rest of your western capitalist comrades.

Rosa Lichtenstein
8th March 2010, 14:46
Kassad:


A source? Pretty simple

Unfortunately for you, that source does not say what you allege of it.


So now Islamic forces funded by the United States are a 'resistance'?

You are the sort of idiot who would claim that Lenin was a tool of German Imperialism just because he acepted money from the Germans.

Moreover, this lot constituted a 'resistance' before the US began to fund them.