Protocals of the Elders of Zion

[bailey_187]

So how do i prove that this is an anti-semitic forged document?

I know theres the fact that it pretty much copies text from another peice of writing; but what other evidence is there?

Its actually scary how many people still beleive that rubbish

[Vendetta]

...what?

[RED DAVE]

The wikipedia article is a good place to start.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protocols_of_the_Elders_of_Zion

The question then becomes: why would an individual believe this shit? The only debate I've ever been in about it was with an out-and-out nazi. Basically, I was able to get him into a corner constantly, from which he would emerge with more and more demands for proofs. It was obviously that he was impervious to change. He wanted or needed to believe that the Protocols were real.

The fact that anyone would believe, post-Holocaust, that the Jews, all 12 million of us, actually rule the world, reveals a strongly paranoid mind set. Belief in the Protocols is usually combined with Holocaust denial.

RED DAVE

[bailey_187]

...what?

At the start of the 20th century a document apeared called the "Protocals of the Elders of Zion", supposdly written by Jews outlining their planes to take over the world.
The Document was then found out to be a forgery by anti-semites to start hatred to Jews.

However, many crazy conspiracy theorists beleive today that it is still really written by Jews and that the UN, Jews etc today are following it to take over the world.

I want to know how i can prove this anti-semitic document to be false

[Alf]

The best thing I have read about this is Norman Cohn's book Warrant for Genocide. It goes quite a bit into the background of the forgery in the Russian secret services and Black Hundred milieu

[bailey_187]

The best thing I have read about this is Norman Cohn's book Warrant for Genocide. It goes quite a bit into the background of the forgery in the Russian secret services and Black Hundred milieu

whats the book about in general? (im guessing fascism from the title)

[Tatarin]

I believe most arguents the fascists put on the table is quite strange if not completely out of this world. For example, the Jews are supposed to be the great evil, connected somehow mentally or physically (how else is it that all kinds of Jews can cooperate to take over the world?). Though I've only heard "race" and "blood" as arguments for this.

Now, Hitler was obsessed with the idea of brutal natural selection, that every living creature evolves through constant conflict even within it's own kind, so the same was true for humans.

It is also known that Hitler didn't have any religion he followed closely (though he was born a Christian) nor did he create any mythology about why this or that "race" was better.

So, in short, Jews according to the founder of nazism is a natural product of nature, thus nazism is fighting against it's own teachings.

And for that matter, since the Allies won the war, why are the nazis still hailing Hitler as a great man? Obviously, he and his reich lasted for a mere 12 years and was completely pulverized. Germany could have ceased to exist should that have been the wishes of the Allies. Instead, nazis should see Russians and Americans and about any other "race" as superior to the "aryan" one, right?

[Alf]

the book is specifically about the Protocols, in the context of anti-semitism in Europe and Russia

[Delegado J]

However, many crazy conspiracy theorists beleive today that it is still really written by Jews and that the UN, Jews etc today are following it to take over the world.

Well, the UN and the international bankers are...pretty much looking for world domination in one way or another.

The bankers (Rockefeller, Rothschild, etc.) just happen to be jewish but that doesn't mean every jew acts like them. Hell, I have jewish friends who are very respectable people. However, when most people talk about banks taking over the world it's denounced as an "anti-semetic" conspiracy theory. The way I look at it, the New World Order is a reality, but there are a lot of different theories and opinions on the subject. As long as you understand what is going on behind the shadows (the trilateral commission, bilderberg group, etc.) you pretty have the majority of the facts covered. It just pisses me off when Alex Jones mixes facts with his own opinions (he's a libertarian capitalist).

Don't get me wrong, it's great that he's defending freedom and liberty but he equates laissez-faire capitalism with economic democracy, which is completely untrue.

[9]

Well, the UN and the international bankers are...pretty much looking for world domination in one way or another.

The bankers (Rockefeller, Rothschild, etc.) just happen to be jewish but that doesn't mean every jew acts like them.

:rolleyes:

Rockefeller wasn't even Jewish.

[RED DAVE]

Well, the UN and the international bankers are...pretty much looking for world domination in one way or another.Uhh, Comrade, this is a little shaky. What about the rest of the world's capitalists, whose role is certainly on a par with the bankers? Blaming the bankers for "world domination" is a feature of an earlier era of capitalism when finance capital was much stronger. As to world domination, capitalism and the capitalist ruling class certainly has that, but the banking segment of capitalism is not the controlling factor.

The UN is a complicated subject, but one thing is certain: it is not looking for world domination.


The bankers (Rockefeller, Rothschild, etc.) just happen to be jewishUhh, Comrade, the Rockefellers are good Baptists. And there are some very good reasons why some wealthy Jews dominated world banking at one time, and although there are still prominent Jewish bankers, their power is nothing compared to what it once was.


but that doesn't mean every jew acts like them.Thank you, Comrade. Please be aware that a very large number of revolutionary Marxists, from Marx on down, have been Jews.


Hell, I have jewish friends who are very respectable people.Thank you. We do know how to wash our hands before meals and not be capitalists.


However, when most people talk about banks taking over the world it's denounced as an "anti-semetic" conspiracy theory.Any such assertion should be viewed with a very skeptical eye.


The way I look at it, the New World Order is a realityNo it is not. You are looking at "it" wrong. What is a reality is the increasing globalization of capitalism. But this is very far from a New World Order.


but there are a lot of different theories and opinions on the subject. Most of them are dead wrong. Many of them have right-wing overtones.


As long as you understand what is going on behind the shadows (the trilateral commission, bilderberg group, etc.) you pretty have the majority of the facts covered.This is absolute nonsense. In order to have the "majority of facts" with regard to world capitalism, you need to study the movement of capital from country to country.


It just pisses me off when Alex Jones mixes facts with his own opinions (he's a libertarian capitalist).He's a maniac.


Don't get me wrong, it's great that he's defending freedom and libertyHis version of liberty is hardly that of a Marxist.


but he equates laissez-faire capitalism with economic democracy, which is completely untrue.Plus a few zillion other errors.

Comrade, you need to read some Marxism and leave Alex Jones, the Raelian lizards, etc., alone.

RED DAVE

[Guerrilla22]

Check out this graphic novel by the late, great artist Will Eisner. It explains the whole story of how it was written and distributed by agents working for Tsarist Russia in the early 20th century.

http://www.willeisner.com/books/images/plot_cv.jpg

http://www.willeisner.com/books/plot.html

[Delegado J]

Uhh, Comrade, this is a little shaky. What about the rest of the world's capitalists, whose role is certainly on a par with the bankers? Blaming the bankers for "world domination" is a feature of an earlier era of capitalism when finance capital was much stronger. As to world domination, capitalism and the capitalist ruling class certainly has that, but the banking segment of capitalism is not the controlling factor.

Has there ever been an entity holding as much credit and power as the international bankers, lending out money to individual countries (like a market)? With the use of interest rates and fiat money, they can basically print as much currency as they want and enslave any country that borrows from them.


The UN is a complicated subject, but one thing is certain: it is not looking for world domination.

Maybe not the entire U.N. membership are criminals


Uhh, Comrade, the Rockefellers are good Baptists. And there are some very good reasons why some wealthy Jews dominated world banking at one time, and although there are still prominent Jewish bankers, their power is nothing compared to what it once was.

Religiously, they are Baptists, but they are ethnically German-Jewish.


Thank you, Comrade. Please be aware that a very large number of revolutionary Marxists, from Marx on down, have been Jews.

Yes, I know that. I've read a lot of Marx and admire him very much for his dedication to the working class. Lenin on the other hand....



No it is not. You are looking at "it" wrong. What is a reality is the increasing globalization of capitalism. But this is very far from a New World Order.

By establishing globalization, establishing monopoly capitalism, and creating scapegoats as justification for cracking down on free will IS, in itself, a New World Order.

[The Vegan Marxist]

Has there ever been an entity holding as much credit and power as the international bankers, lending out money to individual countries (like a market)? With the use of interest rates and fiat money, they can basically print as much currency as they want and enslave any country that borrows from them.



Maybe not the entire U.N. membership are criminals



Religiously, they are Baptists, but they are ethnically German-Jewish.



Yes, I know that. I've read a lot of Marx and admire him very much for his dedication to the working class. Lenin on the other hand....




By establishing globalization, establishing monopoly capitalism, and creating scapegoats as justification for cracking down on free will IS, in itself, a New World Order.

Well, let's look at the idea of a 'New World Order'. The ideal-term is based on a small grouped elite that have an imperialistic agenda of globalizing the entire world, & the establishment of a world-wide governmental order of economics & political-wise as well. The fact of the matter is that this has been going on for quite a while now, & even before the States were created by the independent english rule. So the term 'New World Order' really isn't as new as it may seem. Yes, you can say there's a new world order being implemented, I've heard Zack de la Rocha from RATM say it plenty of times, & even Bruce Springsteen has mentioned it before. The ideal of a 'New World Order' is VERY real, & doesn't need illogical conspiracy theories to back it up. The conspiracy theories ruined the very term of a 'New World Order', & re-designed it as a theory as well. This was one of the first successful attacks against the anti-globalists by altering the term & separated the movement between real activists against the global elite & the paranoid activists that lost control of their own political lifestyle.

[RED DAVE]

Uhh, Comrade, this is a little shaky. What about the rest of the world's capitalists, whose role is certainly on a par with the bankers? Blaming the bankers for "world domination" is a feature of an earlier era of capitalism when finance capital was much stronger. As to world domination, capitalism and the capitalist ruling class certainly has that, but the banking segment of capitalism is not the controlling factor.
Has there ever been an entity holding as much credit and power as the international bankers, lending out money to individual countries (like a market)? With the use of interest rates and fiat money, they can basically print as much currency as they want and enslave any country that borrows from them.UHH, Comrade, you are (a) assuming that the banks are independent of the rest of capitalism, which is not the case and (b) you haven’t addressed the power of other branches of capitalism, such as heavy manufacturing, military production, agribusiness, etc. And, of course, we have state capitalism, which is still extremely powerful in places like China, Russia and Taiwan.

The UN is a complicated subject, but one thing is certain: it is not looking for world domination. ]
Maybe not the entire U.N. membership are criminals.Not a great response given what you originally claimed: that the UN is part of a process or world domination.


Uhh, Comrade, the Rockefellers are good Baptists. And there are some very good reasons why some wealthy Jews dominated world banking at one time, and although there are still prominent Jewish bankers, their power is nothing compared to what it once was.
Religiously, they are Baptists, but they are ethnically German-Jewish.What is your source for the Jewish ancestry or the Rockefellers? You are on very thin ice, Comrade, above some very nasty water.


The name is an anglicized version of the German Rokkenfelder or Rockenfeller, meaning from Roggenfeld. The Rockefellers' origin can be directly traced back to the villages of Ehlscheid, Segendorf and Fahr (all suburbanised to Neuwied, Rhineland-Palatinate).[2] These are neighbored to the small settlement of Rockenfeld - part of Neuwied's quarter Feldkirchen.[3] In Germany, Rockenfeller is known as a family name.


Family records in parish registers reach back to the end of the Thirty Years' War. The earliest known ancestors (direct line) are Goddard (Gotthard) Rockenfeller (*ca. 1590) Johann Wilhelm Rockenfeller (*ca. 1628,†1702) and Johannes Rockenfeller (*ca. 1634,†1684). Johann Peter (*1682), son of Johannes, moved in 1723 to Ringoes, New Jersey. Johann Thiel (*1695), grandson of Johann Wilhelm, immigrated in 1735 to Germantown, New York. William Avery Rockefeller was looking for a noble descent and a possible connection to a French Huguenot family de Roquefeuille was discussed. However, this is unlikely because the name Rockenfeld is recorded in the region long before the Huguenots fled France (1685). http://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rockefeller-familien


Thank you, Comrade. Please be aware that a very large number of revolutionary Marxists, from Marx on down, have been Jews.
Yes, I know that. I've read a lot of Marx and admire him very much for his dedication to the working class. Lenin on the other hand....Comrade, I suggest you take about six months off and study the works of Marx and Lenin.

QUOTE=RED DAVE]No it is not. You are looking at "it" wrong. What is a reality is the increasing globalization of capitalism. But this is very far from a New World Order.[/quote]
By establishing globalization, establishing monopoly capitalism, and creating scapegoats as justification for cracking down on free will IS, in itself, a New World Order. No, it is not. It is the next stage of capitalist development: globalization. The term “New World Order” implies conscious conspiracy which is far from the case. Conspiracy thinking is quite different from Marxism and is, in general, a hallmark of the Right.

RED DAVE

[RadioRaheem84]

I really don't think we need to descend into the depths of right wing conspiracy theories surrounding international finance. I think the roots of this stem from a long history of anti-semitism and the fact that the Jews of Europe took it upon themselves to develop systems of thought (finance, usury, interest, communism, etc.) that were outside of the box because they weren't bogged down by Church dogma, nationalism, and a hierarchy controlling their thoughts.

[Sasha]

dont forget that since jews because of rampant and often official anti-semitism where not allowed to work in traditional worker fields like metalwork, carpentry, leathermaking etc etc, they where forced to do "new" jobs (diamond cutting, newspaper printing) or jobs that christians where not allowed at the time (money lending), jobs that turned out very proffitable.
so its true that under the new rich there was an disportianal amount of jews (but also under the most poor proletariat btw) but this was created BY the anti-semitism.
after wich the anti-semites used it again to proof their point. nice how that works out huh.

[Delegado J]

Wow, I've been on Revleft for less than 24 hours and already I've gotten people to dislike me...oh well. Here goes:

A book overlooked by most people and published for sale mainly within the Jewish community states that the Rockefellers are Jews of Sephardic descent (meaning Spanish and Portuguese Jews). The work was published only for Jews some years ago. The work was compiled by the Jewish historian Malcolm H. Stern and entitled “Americans of Jewish Decent.”
That book weighed 10 pounds and gave the history of 25,000 Jewish individuals in America. It is extremely interesting to note that only 550 copies of the book were printed and each copy was consecutively numbered. The book was delivered to the top Jewish community leaders in America for their personal reference files in dealing with and contacting Jews who are “Marranos” (those Jews who “PRETEND” to be Christians in their community but secretly hold to their Jewish faith and race when among their own kind.)
Stephen Birmingham in “The Grandees” reports: “Who would expect to find the Rockefellers in the book.” Stern’s work traces what he calls the “Nobility of Jewry - the Sephardim who lived in Spain and Portugal as princes of the land.”


Yeah, I know, I know "BUT THAT'S A FAR-RIGHT VIEWPOINT, FILLED WITH CONSPIRATORIAL CRAP AND ANTI-SEMETISM!!!"

Let's break out of the left-right paradigm and seperate fact from fiction, shall we? It's true the Rockefellers have Jewish ancestry. Of course, like you stated, they are German as well (the family migrated eventually). That much is correct.

And i can't post the link because I haven't made 25 posts yet.

[RED DAVE]

Wow, I've been on Revleft for less than 24 hours and already I've gotten people to dislike me...oh well. Here goes:You mean you're going to jump into the cesspool again?


A book overlooked by most people and published for sale mainly within the Jewish community states that the Rockefellers are Jews of Sephardic descent (meaning Spanish and Portuguese Jews). The work was published only for Jews some years ago. The work was compiled by the Jewish historian Malcolm H. Stern and entitled “Americans of Jewish Decent.”

That book weighed 10 pounds and gave the history of 25,000 Jewish individuals in America. It is extremely interesting to note that only 550 copies of the book were printed and each copy was consecutively numbered. The book was delivered to the top Jewish community leaders in America for their personal reference files in dealing with and contacting Jews who are “Marranos” (those Jews who “PRETEND” to be Christians in their community but secretly hold to their Jewish faith and race when among their own kind.)

Stephen Birmingham in “The Grandees” reports: “Who would expect to find the Rockefellers in the book.” Stern’s work traces what he calls the “Nobility of Jewry - the Sephardim who lived in Spain and Portugal as princes of the land.”http://www.conspiracyarchive.com/Blog/?p=2646

Uhh, Comrade, I know you can't use links, but you can indicate them in your text.

By the way, the page that you got this from indicates that the famous 10 pound book is available online.


Yeah, I know, I know "BUT THAT'S A FAR-RIGHT VIEWPOINT, FILLED WITH CONSPIRATORIAL CRAP AND ANTI-SEMETISM!!!"Correct.


Let's break out of the left-right paradigm and seperate fact from fiction, shall we?Show us what you got, dude.


It's true the Rockefellers have Jewish ancestry. Of course, like you stated, they are German as well (the family migrated eventually). That much is correct.It is not true.

The page that you got the above quote from specifically states that it's not true. One member of the Rockefeller family, Godfrey Stillman Rockefeller, a grandson of a brother of the famous John D. Rockefeller, married a Jewish woman. There are no other Jewish connections. It's all conspiracy-theory bullshit, and you bought into it.

Again: http://www.conspiracyarchive.com/Blog/?p=2646 (http://www.conspiracyarchive.com/Blog/?p=2646)

My question is why, and why do you persist in this crap? Just the fact that you're nutso about the Rockefellers being jewish, which I was able to refute in about 5 minutes, indicates that there's some very odd about the drift of your thought.

RED DAVE