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robbo203
31st January 2010, 11:01
http://www.marxists.org/archive/lawrence/2002/socialism_change.htm

Pieter Lawrence
Socialism, Sudden and Gradual Change

Source: Socialist Standard, March 2002.
Transcription: Socialist Party of Great Britain (http://www.worldsocialism.org/spgb).
HTML Markup: Darren O'Neil

In modern times the idea of a new society, or a change from capitalism to socialism, goes back to the turn of the 19th century when it was discussed by utopian writers. These ideas were developed by Marx and Engels as a political and economic criticism of the capitalist system and in 1848, in the Communist Manifesto, they set out a revolutionary programme for achieving this change. The pamphlet became a great influence on the growth of working class movements when the many Communist, Social Democratic and Labour Parties were founded. Some were eventually successful in winning power and forming governments. Even now, in China, a so-called Communist government wields power over nearly a quarter of the world's population.
As we now look back over the struggles of countless millions of working people throughout the world during the l9th and 20th centuries, which were dedicated to the idea of building a new society, it is important to ask what has been achieved? And if the aims that inspired all these movements have not been realised, what went wrong? It has to be accepted that they made no progress towards a socialist society, and it should now be asked why the methods and policies of these movements were doomed to failure.
Though it was a great influence it would be unjust to blame the failures on the Communist Manifesto. However, whilst we may still admire that great historical document we should also accept that the revolutionary programme it set out was fatally flawed. One problem with this programme was that it envisaged that socialism would be established after a period of time following the capture of power by a working class government:

“The proletariat will use its political supremacy to wrest, by degrees, all capital from the bourgeoisie, to centralise all instruments of production in the hands of the state, i.e., of the proletariat organised as a ruling class, and to increase the total of productive forces as rapidly as possible.”
So the expropriation of the capitalists was to take place gradually and would include the continued use of such features of capitalism as money, rent from land, income tax, private property and a national bank with state capital. It was in effect, a recipe for state capitalism.
A process of change, by degrees, from capitalism to socialism is not possible. This would have to assume that at each stage there would be, side by side, wage labour producing commodities for sale on the markets with people co-operating voluntarily to produced goods solely for needs. It would also have to assume that sales of goods would operate side by side with free access to goods. But if the function of state capital was that it should be invested in labour, machinery and materials with a view to its circulation and accumulation throughout production and the sales of commodities, then this could only have resulted from the exploitation of workers. That this function of capital would gradually disappear from the system, and voluntary co-operation with free access to goods would displace wage labour producing commodities for sale, is, once again, just not credible.
Taking the works of Marx as a whole, we can understand that the productive relationships of capitalism and socialism are mutually exclusive and cannot operate together. In fact, a capitalist basis compels each part of the productive system to be profitable or at least solvent, and if they are not they tend to drop out because they are not viable. These are the pressures of economic selection which tend to maintain the system as an exclusively capitalist structure.
It is true that later in his political life Marx came to see the revolutionary programme of the Communist Manifesto differently, but by that time the idea of nationalisation and state control as providing a road to socialism had become the received wisdom of working class movements and tragically, it all was to lead to failure, disaster and disillusion. It was the founder members of the Socialist Party who insisted that the change from capitalism to socialism could only be achieved by a majority of socialists taking democratic control, bringing in the common ownership of the means of production and commencing the organisation of socialist society from that point.
On the face of it, this suggests that the change from capitalism to socialism would be a sudden leap from one social system to another. But, seen against the background of continuous development and the particular factors that would be involved, it would not be a total social change so much as a change in the social relationships through which society is operated. This would be the new basis on which people would reorganise society to meet their needs.
An example of a “sudden” and far-reaching change in social relationships was that carried out by the Bolsheviks as part of their state capitalist revolution in 1917. Not the nationalisation of industry and manufacture, which was not so much a basic change as a transfer of private ownership to the benefits of monopoly and control for a new class of state bosses. But, in the countryside, the Bolsheviks destroyed the landed aristocracy overnight. These feudal relationships had existed for centuries and involved millions of people over the entire land mass. This destruction of an entire class and its corresponding mode of agricultural production was enacted at 2.30 in the morning on 9 November 1917.
But this is not to suggest that this sudden change can be explained solely in terms of the events of 9 November 1917. Although the power of the landed aristocracy had remained barely unaltered for centuries, the pressures on it from a wide range of external sources had been gradually intensifying. In this broader context, the sudden destruction of the landed aristocracy in Russia is explained in relation to the slow pace of social development during the preceding century including the failure to develop more efficient capitalist agriculture compared with other European Powers. This lack of proportionate development meant that in the First World War Russia was unable to sustain its war effort on equal terms. The failures of the Russian Army, the bankruptcy of the state, and the desperate condition of the Russian masses in poverty and famine led to social and political breakdown, which gave the Bolsheviks their opportunity to seize power. So the sudden changes enacted by the Bolsheviks in l917 were the outcome of these tensions which acted as a more gradual build up of predisposing factors. Although the circumstances would be totally different this may be a useful analogy in considering sudden and gradual change as elements in a socialist revolution.
At the time of the Communist Manifesto Marx and Engels believed that one of the limitations on what could be achieved was the relative lack of capitalist development. This meant that, though the political and economic arrangements were vague, the first thing the working class would have to do with its “political supremacy” would be to “increase the total of productive forces as rapidly as possible.” But 150 years later this has been massively achieved by capitalism itself. In fact it has done much more.
A key concept in the materialist view of change is what Marx referred to as the conflict between the “material productive forces of society” and the “existing relations of production”. Applying this to capitalist society, its productive relations of class ownership, wage labour and capital have not changed over more than two hundred years. These define capitalism as a system and cannot change. But its productive forces have changed enormously. These have increased and spread to every corner of the globe to become a world system. Means of production of every kind, transport and advanced technique have been developed together with instant world communications, administration and institutions. These developments over time now pre-dispose the ease with which a majority of socialists could stop the operation of capitalism and immediately commence the organisation of socialist society.
These changes have altered the conditions in which the work for socialism is carried on. For example, the existence of great powers of production which cannot be used for the benefit of all people because they are constrained to serve the interests of a few in a profit system sharpens the conflict between human needs and the prevailing class relations. We are also able to learn from the political experience of failure. Mainly the disastrous idea that socialism can be established over time by a “working class government” through nationalisation and state control.
In practical terms the change from capitalism to socialism will not mean the introduction of anything materially new so much as the immediate removal of redundant features of an existing structure of production and social organisation. The establishment of common ownership does not and could not imply a sudden transformation of all the material processes of living. There could be no sudden change in the actual work processes of people in mining, industry, manufacture, transport and distribution, farming, building and construction, energy supply, health services, etc. All these people would carry on with what they are doing but within the new relationships of voluntary co-operation. From this point a period of rapid re-organisation and development would also be commenced after production and administration has been released from the economic constraints of capitalism. This will necessarily take time. Seen in this practical perspective the change from capitalism to socialism can be seen as combining elements of both short and long-term change.

chebol
31st January 2010, 12:15
There's really nothing new there, including a hamfisted attempt to misrepresent what Marx and Engels stood for and wrote.

robbo203
31st January 2010, 13:05
There's really nothing new there, including a hamfisted attempt to misrepresent what Marx and Engels stood for and wrote.


Do you want to be a bit more specific? This is hardly adequate as criticism

chebol
31st January 2010, 13:41
And the article is hardly adequate as a criticism of Marx and Engels. The whole piece revolves around the straw argument that Marx and Engels proposed a fundamentally reformist approach to revolution (a position then disingenuously later in the piece).

The whole thing revolves around a "critique" of the phrase:


The proletariat will use its political supremacy to wrest, by degrees, all capital from the bourgeoisie

with an undue emphasis on the words "by degrees". The article first distorts the meaning Marx and Engels ascribed to this phrase, and then pretends to "solve" the problem, by proposing ...

... the use of proletarian political supremacy to wrest capital from the bourgeoisie in a manner that is essentially a matter of degrees.

ie


The establishment of common ownership does not and could not imply a sudden transformation of all the material processes of living. There could be no sudden change in the actual work processes of people in mining, industry, manufacture, transport and distribution, farming, building and construction, energy supply, health services, etc. All these people would carry on with what they are doing but within the new relationships of voluntary co-operation. From this point a period of rapid re-organisation and development would also be commenced after production and administration has been released from the economic constraints of capitalism. This will necessarily take time. Seen in this practical perspective the change from capitalism to socialism can be seen as combining elements of both short and long-term change.

Beat your wife much? Really...

"By degrees" can mean in a matter of hours or days, or over months or even years, depending on the situation and circumstances of the specific revolution.

The attempted criticism that the Communist Manifesto
envisaged that socialism would be established after a period of time following the capture of power by a working class government falls at the same hurdle. What is a "period of time", exactly? Why does the article assume that it means a period like years? And how is it different ot what the article argues? (Hint: it's not.)

For that reasons, the whole article is not particularly disagreeable in its content, but is an arrogant and self-serving exercise that misrepresents Marx and Engels (as reformists) for its own (dare I suggest sectarian?) ends.

robbo203
31st January 2010, 14:33
And the article is hardly adequate as a criticism of Marx and Engels. The whole piece revolves around the straw argument that Marx and Engels proposed a fundamentally reformist approach to revolution (a position then disingenuously later in the piece).

The whole thing revolves around a "critique" of the phrase:



with an undue emphasis on the words "by degrees". The article first distorts the meaning Marx and Engels ascribed to this phrase, and then pretends to "solve" the problem, by proposing ...

... the use of proletarian political supremacy to wrest capital from the bourgeoisie in a manner that is essentially a matter of degrees.

ie



Beat your wife much? Really...

"By degrees" can mean in a matter of hours or days, or over months or even years, depending on the situation and circumstances of the specific revolution.

The attempted criticism that the Communist Manifesto falls at the same hurdle. What is a "period of time", exactly? Why does the article assume that it means a period like years? And how is it different ot what the article argues? (Hint: it's not.)

For that reasons, the whole article is not particularly disagreeable in its content, but is an arrogant and self-serving exercise that misrepresents Marx and Engels (as reformists) for its own (dare I suggest sectarian?) ends.


I think this is a pretty feeble attempt at a criticism of the article if I might say so. Marx and Engels did afterall advocate a reform programme in the Communist Manifesto which can hardly be denied (though they latter recanted to a large degree as can be seen from the prefaces to the CM and suggested that not much attention ought to be paid to this particular section of the manifesto) . To this extent they were advocating a rather clumsy and ill thought out refromist approach in my view

What the article was trying to point out which you seem to have completely missed in your haste to condemn it is that you cannot gradually introduce socialism because of the very nature of the system itself and its radical difference to capitalism. Its like trying to mix oil and water


Your assertion that The attempted criticism that the Communist Manifesto falls at the same hurdle. What is a "period of time", exactly? Why does the article assume that it means a period like years? And how is it different ot what the article argues? is frankly baffling. How does the article "fall" in that respect? The time factor is irrelevant to this discussion. What matters is the assertion that that the working class can wrest by degrees all capital from the bourgeoisie and the article goes on to show quite lucidly that this is a fundamentally erroneous approach to revolution - it cannot happen like that.

Curiously elsewhere in the CM, Marx and Engels were spot on when they argued that communism would be the most "radical rupture" with traditional property relationships

chebol
31st January 2010, 15:53
And your response was as feeble as the article.

You replicate the misunderstanding of what "degrees" means by assuming the most slowed-down, reformist, rate of change.

As such, you miss entirely my point, and the point of Marx, Engels, the Communist Manifesto, and their later works.

The article doesn't "fail" for recognising the need for both immediate and long-term change. It fails for attempting to paint Marx and Engels (and the Manifesto, and indeed their later work) as naive and insufficient in this particular aspect.

If my criticism appears "feeble" it is only because the article itself is self-contradictory, hypocritical and feeble itself. If you can't see that, I can't help you until you actually read M&E again, this time with your eyes open.


The time factor is irrelevant to this discussion.

No, its not. Because if the "reform by degrees" you accuse Marx and Engels of were to take place in a thorough manner in a matter of weeks and months, then pissing on it as "reformist" and inadequate exposes the article's dishonest "critique" of M&E as a piece of horse shit - which is basically what it is.

And before you respond, think about it, and what "by degrees" (which is the heart of the "critique") might actually mean if you think about the words instead of simply swallow that part of the article.

The article, by the way, is not simply arguing that you cannot bring socialism in slowly (which it accuses M&E of), but that in the final, practical, analysis


the change from capitalism to socialism can be seen as combining elements of both short and long-term change.

That is, both reforms and revolutionary actions. Which is entirely - repeat entirely - in keeping with the intent of the Manifesto, and of M&E. The whole article is more or less correct, but tries to arrogate to itself a unique grandeur by "proving" Marx and Engels wrong through a dishonest word-trick. Fail.

Please learn to read before assuming to shoot your mouth off.

robbo203
31st January 2010, 19:04
And your response was as feeble as the article.

You replicate the misunderstanding of what "degrees" means by assuming the most slowed-down, reformist, rate of change.

As such, you miss entirely my point, and the point of Marx, Engels, the Communist Manifesto, and their later works.

The article doesn't "fail" for recognising the need for both immediate and long-term change. It fails for attempting to paint Marx and Engels (and the Manifesto, and indeed their later work) as naive and insufficient in this particular aspect.

If my criticism appears "feeble" it is only because the article itself is self-contradictory, hypocritical and feeble itself. If you can't see that, I can't help you until you actually read M&E again, this time with your eyes open.



No, its not. Because if the "reform by degrees" you accuse Marx and Engels of were to take place in a thorough manner in a matter of weeks and months, then pissing on it as "reformist" and inadequate exposes the article's dishonest "critique" of M&E as a piece of horse shit - which is basically what it is.

And before you respond, think about it, and what "by degrees" (which is the heart of the "critique") might actually mean if you think about the words instead of simply swallow that part of the article.

The article, by the way, is not simply arguing that you cannot bring socialism in slowly (which it accuses M&E of), but that in the final, practical, analysis



That is, both reforms and revolutionary actions. Which is entirely - repeat entirely - in keeping with the intent of the Manifesto, and of M&E. The whole article is more or less correct, but tries to arrogate to itself a unique grandeur by "proving" Marx and Engels wrong through a dishonest word-trick. Fail.

Please learn to read before assuming to shoot your mouth off.

You are not making any sense at all. That is becuase you have basically misunderstood what the article is saying

You interpret this from the article

the change from capitalism to socialism can be seen as combining elements of both short and long-term change

as meaning

That is, both reforms and revolutionary actions


No it does not. This is the source of your confusion

The long term change Pieter Lawrence is referring to is the change in the "material processes of living"

The short term of sudden change is the change in the relationships of production. It is these relationships of production which characterise a system as capitalist or socialist.

Lawrence is saying quite clearly - and quite correctly - that "taking the works of Marx as a whole, we can understand that the productive relationships of capitalism and socialism are mutually exclusive and cannot operate together". Because they are mutually exclusive, the change from one to another has to be "sudden"

The Communist Manifesto certainly does convey the impression that the change in the productive relationships from capitalist to socialist can be something than other. It is ridiculous to deny this. What else could this passage from the Communist Manfesto mean?

The proletariat will use its political supremacy to wrest, by degree, all capital from the bourgeoisie, to centralise all instruments of production in the hands of the State, i.e., of the proletariat organised as the ruling class; and to increase the total productive forces as rapidly as possible.
Of course, in the beginning, this cannot be effected except by means of despotic inroads on the rights of property, and on the conditions of bourgeois production; by means of measures, therefore, which appear economically insufficient and untenable, but which, in the course of the movement, outstrip themselves, necessitate further inroads upon the old social order, and are unavoidable as a means of entirely revolutionising the mode of production


"Wresting by degree" or effecting "despotic inroads on the rights of property" cannot possibly mean anything else than a non sudden transformation. You cannot seriously dispute this. With hindsight the Communist Manfesto erred seriously at this point and ias I said before Marx and Engels year later more or less disowned this part of the Communist Manifesto where it advocates a reformist programme of essentially state capitalist measures.

However, the original Manifesto also contains the insight that Lawrence draws attention to i.e. that capitalism and socialism being mutually exclusive , the change from one to the other must be sudden. This is when it talks of socialism (or communism to use their prefered term at the time) being the most radical rupture with traditional property relationships

robbo203
1st February 2010, 11:40
Here is quite an interesting link on the subject of revolution versus gradualism http://www.worldsocialism.org/spgb/glasgow/TMSMG/page5.html

chebol
1st February 2010, 14:59
This is really like chewing rags in your sleep.

You appear to be interest in nothing but the words of your oracle instead of thinking about what the words of other revolutionaries actually say.

The fact that the revolutionaries you choose to ignore are Marx and Engels, while you still presume to claim their mantle, makes the entire exercise only more pathetic and self-serving.

The fact that both you and your oracle are both incapable of understanding what Marx and Engels were saying is even more disappointing.

I really have nothing more to say here....

robbo203
1st February 2010, 17:47
This is really like chewing rags in your sleep.

You appear to be interest in nothing but the words of your oracle instead of thinking about what the words of other revolutionaries actually say.

The fact that the revolutionaries you choose to ignore are Marx and Engels, while you still presume to claim their mantle, makes the entire exercise only more pathetic and self-serving.

The fact that both you and your oracle are both incapable of understanding what Marx and Engels were saying is even more disappointing.

I really have nothing more to say here....

Thats not a particularly constructive comment to make now, is it? Ive tried to show as best I can that your critique is based on a simple misunderstanding of what the article is actually saying and you get all hot under the collar when this is pointed out to you.

Oh well, there's none so blind as those who do not want to see